Miss Fortune PBE nerf feedback

NeoXist·Feb 23, 2017·219 votes·11,908 views

Hey Riot,

A diamond MF otp here, I want to give you some feedback about the MF nerf.

Her nerf on PBE currently states: "Miss Fortune Double Up (Q) - [removed - "If the first shot kills its target, the second deals 50% increased damage."]"

So first of all, you need to think about the fact that MF is not an overloaded champion. However you're removing one of her most fun and rewarding mechanics, which makes the champion a lot less fun to play and also removes one of her mastering skills. This makes the champion a lot more dull and also gives way less options to do in the early game. In other words, it completely destroys her laning phase early while also making it pretty boring. Is this really the way you want to go?

Second, the empowered Q had a lot of counterplay. Yeah, there are people who accidently take it because they forgot about it, but most of them adjust immediately to it and avoid the empowered Q. People should be punished for not playing around a mechanic. By removing this, you're basically removing a lot of MF's pressure and generally making it a LOT easier for the enemy to just do whatever.

Third, lethality is already getting nerfed and MF is VERY reliant on lethality so any nerfs to it will hit her pretty hard. Let's go back a few patches, in 7.1 where armor penetration was reworked into lethality, lethality was pretty weak and so was MF. I thought she was in a fine state but was still getting outclassed by other ADC's. However when you buffed lethality into a really strong state, she became top tier. Guess why? She's extremely reliant on lethality. So waiting a bit after the lethality nerfs hit would make most sense before nerfing a champion like MF. Nothing frustates me more than a champion getting nerfed while at the same time his/her core items are getting nerfed too. You need to have some patience.

Fourth, even after she's still too strong after lethality nerfs, you should not directly remove a rewarding and fun mechanic (I said this before). I'd suggest you look at her passive. It currently encourages her to switch between targets as an ADC. You basically get punished for AA'ing the same target twice (as an ADC, this makes no sense). Her current abilities (passive, Q and R) are all pretty reliant on lethality, by removing the mechanic on Q it won't make it any better. I'd suggest changing the passive instead since the Q is reliant on her passive and make the passive more meanful for actual autoattacking. If otherwise you think her as a caster ADC, then don't change the passive and don't remove any mechanic at all. Because she is currently receiving enough nerfs from the lethality nerfs.

So in short: be patient first, wait for lethality nerfs to make any effect, then judge the champion's balance state and then (don't remove a mechanic...) act on her problem.

That was my feedback, I really hope you read and listen to it. It would mean a lot to me.

Greetings,

NeoXist

194 Comments

cocacolalipsFeb 23, 201780 votes

That's pretty bad, Miss Fortune skill ceiling is already not very high, besides positioning yourself for a good R and managing minion waves for a good Q you aren't doing much, now they are removing half of her skill expression, how are good players supposed to show that they mastered the champion?

I'm not upset they are tuning down a champion, I'm upset they are dumbing down an already simple champion by removing interesting mechanics. Are miss fortune players bound to be walking R bots?

Not only that, but it addresses the wrong issues for the wrong crowd of players. Miss Fortune is a pub stomper, she does best in low elo and has always been unpopular in high elo. People don't know how to use the enhanced Q bounce in low elo, it takes some skill. This change won't do anything in low elo where she is the strongest while it will hurt her in high elo where she is already not very good or popular. Riot instead should be looking to do the opposite by making changes that will affect her the most in lower elos.

AimléssFeb 23, 201719 votes

True, this nerf is dumb. They should of just nerfed the damage, and they also could make her ult work like Kennen's and do less damage initially but more over time. (Though Black Cleaver kinda does that) Those are the kind of nerfs she needs. Riot just won't nerf damage as of recently, they think they can play around it like with Jhin and with adcs the problem is usually just damage. Like c'mon Riot.

very appropriateFeb 23, 20177 votes

Agreed. Maybe instead of removing it entirely, make it project a skillshot so you will have to aim it like Lucian Q. Will take more skill to hit but a good MF can still utilize it.

Keylight XDFeb 23, 20176 votes

or, not change it at all? this dmg in my opinion is mostly too much simply because of lethality, which is getting nurfed anyway?

I don't see why mf can't have a little burst around her neck. I love the fact that this burst opens up for plays, and that burst really comes from a miss play on the opponent party who were standing close a dying minion.

please dont punish mf for their mistakes!

DerfelFeb 23, 20174 votes

She's been carrying one of the highest win rates in plat + since season 6 with an average playrate. Do you even know what a pub stomper is? It's someone who does well in public games. Aka solo Q. Aka the only thing that matters. MF has been overpowered as fuck since they reworked her ult so it does more damage than Velkoz's ult and her Q which WILL take 50% of your HP if it ever hits you (such a well designed a fun mechanic durr).

The only reason she dipped in the beginning of season 7 was because of Riot's stupid as fuck implementation of lethality and the duskblade rework.

cocacolalipsFeb 23, 20173 votes

A public game or pick-up-group refers to unorganized play. Saying Miss Fortune is a pubstomper refers to the disparity between her ability to shine in an unorganized environment while simultaneously being mediocre in an organized environment. As your elo rises, people have better macro play and team coordination, with the pro scene standing at the top. Miss Fortune has never been popular in high diamond / master / challenger / pro play. Example of other pub stompers: Shaco, Master Yi, Tryndamere... etc.

I'm not saying Miss Fortune isn't too strong, she is, mostly because lethality buffs tadada tadada... I'm saying the changes on the PBE aren't right. Change something else.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 23, 20172 votes

{quoted} [...] Miss Fortune has never been popular in high diamond / master / challenger / pro play. Example of other pub stompers: Shaco, Master Yi, Tryndamere... etc. [...]

Not entirely true, though. She was actually pretty popular in pro play as a support. ^^

cocacolalipsFeb 23, 20172 votes

Those nerfs target ADC Miss Fortune, we are therefore talking about ADC Miss Fortune here.

Serika ZeroFeb 23, 20172 votes

good players? I got 7th mastery on MF (just her and Diana). And all I know to do is R properly. I miss like 70% of my empowered Q in both lane and team fights. And just that is enough to stomp even in plat elo.

While I agree that her Q makes her fun, its like a "ricochet shot", but unlike stupid stuff ( like jhin's grenade which gets +power after every kill), this one only hits 2 targets and at best gets 1 power up. If they wanna nerf Sarah. They gonna hurt her already niche role. Just of few of us play her when we do play her. And she's almost never meta. Now she's half way there to becoming a meta pick, but she gets nerfed.

Meanwhile jhin just gets love tapped. Oh, the irony. At least varus dominates now, which is nice to see for a change.

cocacolalipsFeb 23, 20176 votes

I'm afraid Miss Fortune will never be a meta adc in competitive play unless she is overpowered. Her kit is too simple and her weaknesses to easy to abuse. Which is fine by me, not every champion has to be meta at the highest level of play. Whether the pros play Garen is irrelevant to my enjoyment playing Garen myself.

But that doesn't excuse the PBE changes imo, which don't go in the right direction. I want more agency as a player, not less. I want people to look at me and say, "damn that's a good Miss Fortune player", and not just "dayum, she pressed R".

Glory ln DeathFeb 23, 20172 votes

Jhin's grenade is much healthier and more fair than the current Double Up. For one thing, Miss Fortune deals 150% damage when she kills the first target (it's actually 300% of the damage dealt to the first target). At the most, Jhin's 4th target can take 205% of the damage dealt to the first target - and that's only if he kills all 3 initial targets. Miss Fortune only has to kill one unit.

Not to mention, Double Up already doubles the original damage on the second target no matter what - none of this "Only 1 power up" nonsense. It will always power up, while Jhin is required to kill something before he gets any boost.

OMGSoAnnoyingFeb 23, 20173 votes

Actually, it only really powers up if you kill the first target with it. If you don't the poke is negligible.

However, MF doesn't have that 4th shot autocrit 200% damage mechanic Jhin does, so they balance just fine as champs.

Right now, of the three major lethality ADC, MF rates third behind Jhin and Varus. The fact remains that she doesn't need the nerf from the only mechanically 'demanding' part of her kit.

Glory ln DeathFeb 23, 20173 votes

The base damage doubles and the scaling increases from 85% AD to 100% AD. That isn't an insignificant power up. With 150 AD and rank 5, the first shot deals 207.5 damage and the second deals 310. Whether she kills anything or not. If she kills the first target, that goes up to 465 damage.

Maybe they shouldn't flat out remove the mechanic itself, but the damage needs to be nerfed. Forcing your lane opponent to recall because you hit one basic ability is not healthy gameplay.

Mira Arya EntheFeb 23, 201722 votes

Oh no. Riot is trying to do "clever balancing" again. Just nerf lethality. If she is still too strong merf that fucking ult damage a little. Otherwise MF is fine.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 23, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Eckr7EI,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-02-23T14:38:53.999+0000)

Oh no. Riot is trying to do "clever balancing" again. Just nerf lethality. If she is still too strong merf that fucking ult damage a little. Otherwise MF is fine.

I want to see her nerfed for shits and giggles. Just like when darius went from around a 50% win rate to 52-3% win rate after CoC was introduced, riot felt the need to nerf him and coutage at the same time. LOL let all the mains feel our anger and frustration!

Mira Arya EntheFeb 23, 20174 votes

Sorry Shyvana Sejuani Olaf we felt this kind of balancing long ago and far more drastically. Unlike the puny Darius nerfs that still leave him viable and strong. And no, I don't want to see any champion dumpstered except Kalista. That nightmarish bad design I helped suggest.

Starcraft243verFeb 23, 201720 votes

They should just nerf a bit her ult, the fuck are they doing x(

NeoXistFeb 23, 201718 votes

Even nerfing her ult would be way better than straight up removing a mechanic.

ADepressedLeonaFeb 23, 20172 votes

I mean, the mechanic itself is still there...

It will just no longer take half of someone's health if it bounces.

VerdadeFeb 23, 20173 votes

It should punish for positioning badly

ADepressedLeonaFeb 23, 20173 votes

So people who take a misstep just to CS should lose half their health?

VerdadeFeb 23, 20173 votes

MF dealing 50% of your HP with Q requires 2 conditions to be met - you have to be behind targeted minion, and minion has to die from Q. This makes counterplay/avoidance really easy. There are similar abilities with multiple conditions, and these are REALLY impactful, even more so than MF's Q

Unironic SJWFeb 23, 201716 votes

I'd prefer a nerf to ult damage as well than straight up murdering her laning, assuming the nerfs to ALL HER ITEMS isn't enough to bring her line (I do think she is a bit too strong). Maybe 70% AD per wave instead of 75%, and reduce the AP to 15% ratio to weaken the support side.

NeoXistFeb 23, 20176 votes

I agree with the sentence that she's a bit too strong but I really think that the item nerfs will bring her back into line. If that's not the case then they could indeed nerf the ultimate's damage, anything better than straight up removing a fun and rewarding mechanic.

About the support MF though, I really hate it that she's played that way in competitive and I think they can murder it by removing the TL proccing on every instance of damage on her E.

Photos of GhostsFeb 23, 20174 votes

Lol, support MF build AD except for item 2301 . That's 25 AP. Reducing hte AP ratio will only hurt the already weak midlane Mage Fortune.

SirLapseFeb 23, 201715 votes

The primary issue I keep finding with MF is that broken ultimate damage. If that's meant to be her gimmick then why should she deserve oppressing lane power? There has to be a tradeoff somewhere man. You'll still deal higher damage on the bounce, but after one successful CS you won't be chunking your lane opponent after backing and getting one BF sword or Lethality component.

ADCs like Caitlyn who normally counter MF are not popular right now so there's no justification for her to keep that Q power until they are brought back in.

NeoXistFeb 23, 201725 votes

You're right about the broken ultimate damage, that's basically entirely MF. But that does not mean you should remove a fun and rewarding mechanic. If riot wants to reduce her laning phase power, they should nerf her passive or Q damage, but removing the mechanic is just really fucking up the champion.

About Caitlyn, that's the thing. After lethality nerfs, champions like Caitlyn will see more play again, that's why I think waiting for the lethality nerfs would be a pretty good choice. More counters like Caitlyn will rise again and that will make MF a lot weaker, removing MF's Q mechanic doesn't help anything with that currently.

SirLapseFeb 23, 20174 votes

{quoted}

You're right about the broken ultimate damage, that's basically entirely MF. But that does not mean you should remove a fun and rewarding mechanic. If riot wants to reduce her laning phase power, they should nerf her passive or Q damage, but removing the mechanic is just really fucking up the champion.

About Caitlyn, that's the thing. After lethality nerfs, champions like Caitlyn will see more play again, that's why I think waiting for the lethality nerfs would be a pretty good choice. More counters like Caitlyn will rise again and that will make MF a lot weaker, removing MF's Q mechanic doesn't help anything with that currently.

That is not a healthy change to be suggesting as a different response.

Nerfing passive makes the interaction between switching targets less satisfactory. That thing has already been nerfed enough and is obviously not responsible for damage creep.

Riot is trying to tone down damage creep, while the damage creep on that skill is specifically what you enjoy about it. It's a difficult situation but all things concerned, something has got to give. You are getting an 80 damage + 200% TOTAL AD second bounce at lv1 which is exacerbated the more levels you put in, ending at 320 + 200% TOTAL AD. That's practically an ultimate as a basic skill whenever the interaction occurs, which is broken as hell considering tank supports are not in the current meta.

NeoXistFeb 23, 20179 votes

You're really over exaggerating. First of all you're describing the stats of an ability which needs to meet a condition. Yes the stats on that ability sound ridicilous but you need to kill an unit with your first bounce and THEN there also needs to be a player BEHIND that specific minion in order to have that damage go through. It doesn't happen everytime, only 2 or 3 times per game if the enemy player is smart.

Compare that to Varus, which just really needs to aim every 10 (or less) seconds in order to do more damage than that (which is also a lethality issue to be fair, but my point is that he requires only aiming instead of some conditions in order to do the damage).

But even then, Riot could reduce the base damage on the Q (which then also nerfs the empowered Q damage, or just reduce the % bonus damage) instead of straight up removing the mechanic. That's a way better solution, since removing the mechanic just makes the skill curve way worse.

Calling it an ultimate ability is ridicilous. Saying it with consideration that there are no tank supports currently in the meta is also ridicilous, since you have a Malzahar and a Zyra which can melt every ADC in the game. Besides that, tank supports are seeing rise again after some support mage nerfs. So that gives even more reason to not remove the mechanic.

TotalJerkFeb 23, 20172 votes

Her ult is broken, so nerf her Q? How would you like a job at Riot? You'd fit right in with the balance team. :P

SirLapseFeb 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Her ult is broken, so nerf her Q? How would you like a job at Riot? You'd fit right in with the balance team. :P

It's not my first post in the thread and it certainly won't be my last. But hey, let people skip through and think as they please. This is the boards after all. I'm not here to strictly have the same consensus as everyone else.

TotalJerkFeb 23, 20175 votes

I'm just being cheeky, I didn't really wanna be an asshole. Anyway, if the issue of her ult keeps being avoided you're gonna get a Kassadin situation.

BlakiepugFeb 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

The primary issue I keep finding with MF is that broken ultimate damage. If that's meant to be her gimmick then why should she deserve oppressing lane power? There has to be a tradeoff somewhere man. You'll still deal higher damage on the bounce, but after one successful CS you won't be chunking your lane opponent after backing and getting one BF sword or Lethality component.

ADCs like Caitlyn who normally counter MF are not popular right now so there's no justification for her to keep that Q power until they are brought back in.

The nerf removes a large chunk of MF's skill curve when it is not even the problem. Like you said, the problem is her ult (in conjunction with the use of lethality). This is just like when Riot removed Azir's ability to damage towers with his W and then was like whoops that wasn't the problem, the problem is he did too much burst with his Q. But we aren't giving W functionality back becauseeeee... we already removed it?

BIackfoxFeb 23, 20177 votes

They have oranotangs working at riot. What did you expect?

DJ LucioFeb 23, 20175 votes

Orangutans?

XyntheyxzFeb 23, 20177 votes

What Rito has done to MF is like removing Draven Q lol

ShirvallahFeb 23, 20176 votes

Literally the only thing I've heard anyone complaining about MF EVER was the high damage of her ultimate. The hitbox is huge, as well, not to mention.

There's not anything wrong with the empowered Q in its current state. I mean, maybe the base damage could be lowered slightly, but I thought the point of the empowered Q was to punish poor positioning?

zebulon02Feb 23, 20175 votes

I agree that the bonus damage on Q2 is very fun and feels so good when u succed on landing it on a champion

Don't remove it plz. Its like the most satisfying part of her kit

Pale PirateFeb 23, 20174 votes

I hate it when the MF hits me with her empowered Q, but it also feels like her trademark in lane, so I actually support that it stays.

Hexs FortuneFeb 23, 20173 votes

They have some time before 7.5 releases and will probably look to see how the lethality, black cleaver and lord dominiks nerfs affect her before going through with the nerf

NeoXistFeb 23, 20175 votes

I hope you're right, but usually when they put up a change they go through with it. But yeah I hope for a revert when they realize the lethality nerfs effect MF a lot.

feryvunnyFeb 23, 20173 votes

This is the exact problem with MissFortune and other champions like Varus and Quinn too. They're only strong atm because of lethality, not because of overloaded kits. I don't even main MF and Varus, but I can feel how much it sucks to see those nerfs if they ever went through. I think the nerfs are pretty big. And it's unfair that they get punished because Riot overtuned a stat that they can abuse.

Nerf the source of the problem. Not the champions.

ElikainFeb 24, 20173 votes

Lethality is meant to be an anti-squishy stat. Reverting to before Lethality buffs would fix nothing because Lethality would then suck and these champions would fall off again. Lethality now works as advertised and it should not come as a surprise that caster Marksmen can also use Lethality as much as Assassins can. Assassins are AD casters by default.

There's a reason why Tristana, Jinx, Ashe, Sivir, Twitch, Vayne... don't go for Lethality. They rely on AAs much more than their spells, naturally scaling off on-hit, crit, AS, raw damage builds. Unfortunately, crit as a stat does a lot more for late game than early game, where Lethality now shines. And since caster Marksmen are now the thing, there's only so much you can nerf Lethality without making it bad again.

I'd wager that Riot doesn't need to only look at nerfing Lethality and its users. I think that crit, as a stat, needs to be looked at as well. But i still want to see how this patch shakes out (because damage masteries have also been nerfed as well) before i start talking about what needs to be done next.

agbudarFeb 24, 20173 votes

much fun chunking another adc for 50%of their HP with only a item 3142

NGNL AsianFeb 24, 20173 votes

She's not broken. It's jsut lethality

LordBrascaFeb 24, 20173 votes

"Hey after we buffed lethality from 40 to 60% champions that synergyzed with it now are crazy op while they were fine before, what do we do?"

Tone down lethality to 50% and see what happens.
Sejuani's method: Let's nerf everything (champions and items) except lethality and, after seeing that nothing worked, let's also nerf the lethality scalings... so that all the champions connected to that stat will be an absolute garbage since they still had the nerfs. Yeah because reverting nerfs is too mainstream and they need "time" to see how things will go (the "time" is usually 1 whole freaking season).

The same mistakes all over again...

Krys StarFeb 23, 20172 votes

Why are they removing this? There's so many factors in play when using Double Up's bonus damage: Positioning, angling, enemy's position and timing. Not to mention, my favorite thing about it was trying to get a Double Up Crit into Bullet Time. They already made her Strut mediocre, why go for Double Up next? :\

Relia FortuneFeb 24, 20172 votes

I agree if someone stands next to the minion they deserve it. I get harassed in lane hard enough and the double up kill off minion to poke helps relieve pressure and sometimes set up for kills. Don't remove the bonus damage, nerf it slightly if you must. That'd make her only viable asset her ultimate which can be easily interrupted. Not hard to flash out of her ult, or even cc her. This is a dumb nerf tbh.

woodvsmurphFeb 23, 20171 votes

So q does a lot of damage in laning phase, but her passive does too if I am not mistaken right? Q takes some actual skill to land as you say while her passive does not. So what if her passive were changed to play more along the lines of her w - giving stacking movespeed or attack speed(not too much, but enough to let her have some realistic kite potential when combined with her w and e)? It would allow mf to play semi-effectively as a more traditional adc (not as good, but better than she can now) while removing a bit of bullying in lane and keeping her q mechanic which actually takes some skill to land.