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Detailed post on why Zyra's W leaves her in a bad spot and why the 6.13/6.15 treatment wasn't ideal

Shaian·8/26/2016, 6:38:55 PM·22 votes·1,746 views

Hey,

I really would like to address some issues on how to balance Zyra's gameplay update and the need to look at her W one more time.

At the time Zyra was on PBE different platforms e.g. the subreddit r/zyramains were 95% convinced, that Zyra has been gutted and was extremely nerfed. Others said, she might be alright. I was the onlyone calling her update too strong and called that it needed nerfs. just seeing her numbers on PBE. You have to know i really love the passive Riot has given her. Patch 6.9 definetly brought us a better gameplay experience playing Zyra and making her less one-dimensional. The r/zyramains community was still not sure about her update (literally every second post was complaining about her passive) and i did an analysis defending your thought process and decisions you have taken in her successful gameplay update.

People realized, that Zyra was very strong. Too strong. She needs nerfs.

Riot correctly detected that the amount of Zyra's plants are making her oppressive. Neither her Q nor her E or R give her any room to get nerfed. Only her W and her passive.

But, the way they nerfed Zyra turned out to hit her very harsh.

I actually suggested on reddit that Riot should change her passive from 11-7 seconds -> 13-7 seconds, to make her less oppressive. Riot themselves decided to nerf the passive to 13-8.5 seconds. I completely agree with that.

However, changing her W from 17/16/15/14/13 -> 20/18/16/14/12 leads Zyra to max W second now, because of one single reason: The success of Zyra now is dependent on the amount of plants she has available. The items Zyra prefers to buy, don't have CDR. Getting 2 seconds cooldown less on seeds is too huge to max it last. Zyra started struggeling in lane with her increased cooldowns. 3 seconds in early game are big. It's 6 seconds more until she has 2 seeds up again. Protective supports got buffed as well in the same patch. The windows she can trade are too short now and not overwhelming. The passive seeds are (as they should be) easily stepped on, if they spawn in an aggressive spot. They offer the counterplay they need. You have to max W second now. She can not afford it to need 40 seconds at level 13 to have two seeds ready.

Giving Zyra less seeds nerfing BOTH W and Passive was overkill at then end. Riot realized Zyra was probably too weak (she had her lowest winrate since her release in 2012). They increased the AP-ratio of her Q and increased the basedamage of it by 0/5/10/15/20. But, that doesnt do anything to her. It is the spell she is still going to max last. Her struggle in laning (which is supposed to be her strength) is untouched with these changes. She still has to max W second.

Just as comparism:

40 sec -> 24 sec rather than 34 sec -> 26 sec until you have two seeds up is stronger than additional +35 damage and 0.5 less cooldown per rank. Zyra support players finish at the time of 20-23 minutes their first item (most times Liandries, some cases Rylais). They synergize way better with plants than with Q. Thats why the 2 seconds less on seeds are way too powerful to ignore.

The Q buff feels really good and satisfying when you play Zyra mid. I have to admit that. But, else it doesn't do anything with the current state of her W. If you truely believed Zyra was slightly too weak, it was the wrong approach to buff her Q and you should have a look again at her W to properly balance it. Her winrate slightly increased yes, but only because her playrate decreased and the dedicated Zyra players play her.

I suggest and hope you investigate in Zyra and look at her W again. Personally i am convinced that she is more satisying to play when she maxes Q second. Right now the tradeoff is too big, to make it worth.

Thanks for reading,

Shaiaan

24 Comments

Elikain8/26/2016, 9:07:54 PM3 votes

Have you tried maxing her skills instead of her W on a support role? I think you're forgetting that her passive scales with level and that itself generates a lot of seeds, which is why i think her nerf to W isn't too harsh as this isn't her only form of summoning plants. Zyra managing to stay in the same place for a while generates a lot of seeds that can be used to summon her plants but the point is that those seeds are her defense, not offense which is one way Riot was looking to nerf her anyway.

As a matter of fact, you probably don't have to level W all the way to lvl 5 as a second spell but merely put 2-3 points in it to have an acceptable CD with Lucidity and Intelligence mastery. I also use CD scaling glyphs for any mage or a support on bot so i don't ever run into a problem of being forced to buy CD, although sometimes i love to rush close to 40% CDR ASAP.

However, changing her W from 17/16/15/14/13 -> 20/18/16/14/12 leads Zyra to max W

I'm also curious what was your skill point distribution into W before these nerfs.

Dominick Destine8/26/2016, 6:51:51 PM3 votes

I am sad to see Zyra get nerfed.

LankPants8/27/2016, 4:47:14 AM2 votes

I stand by what I've always said regarding Zyra, Riot needs to give her a reason to build AP.

It's incredibly frustrating when Zyra support is strong because she's a champ who you feed zero resources into who deals the damage of a proper mage when she just has a couple of pen items. It also leads to mid Zyra being questionable because she just doesn't scale up hard enough with the gold she's given.

I think the first thing Riot should do with Zyra is nerf her plants base damage to 15+3/level and buff the ratio to 0.25 to create a bigger difference between Zyra building AP and Zyra not building AP. After a change like this I'd be cool with other changes to support Zyra but I think a change like this needs to go through first to create a difference in damage between support Zyra and mid Zyra which currently isn't pronounced enough.

FantasySniper8/27/2016, 6:34:45 AM2 votes

When they said that she had too many plants, I sincerely thought they would just get rid of the RNG double-seed from her passive and increase its CD. But no, they wanted to nerf her [W], too. And in a way that really hurt her laning phase, mid or support. They could've at least tried tweaking the awkward health scaling on her plants first.

The Yetii Rider8/26/2016, 9:23:19 PM2 votes

I think the intent of the changes was to encourage Zyra support to build more CDR like the other supports do.

Yes, Liandry's Rush is no longer as strong, but have you tried a Morello rush instead?

Declined8/27/2016, 1:08:39 PM1 votes

Hey Shaiaan

I see you've done a lot of math about her current build, but I would go as far as say that her current kit is bad, not because it's either op/up but because of the downtime on her plants is pretty much nonexistant, instead they spawn at random places, that leaves only 2 options.

  • Either you nerf it to the ground in cases where she spawns a lot of at the same location buffing her damage
  • Or buff it, to compensate for the randomness of the location where the seeds are spawned.

This causes her to be very frustrating to play, and even play against, since you're battling rng.

She was my 2nd most played champion until 6.9, at which point I no longer found her fun to play or play against.

I won't discuss cd, scaling or other factors, instead I have a suggestion that would make her more interactive and clearer to play.

#Suggestion

Strip Zyra of her current passive, and add it as a passive effect to her active W. By that I mean, if you plant seeds, they should sprout 'seedlings' on their own if left unattended.

It would provide a lot more flexibility and counterplay to her, as well and providing her with 2 primary ways to fight using plants.

  • She hangs onto her W and use it only for fights, but will have less plants.
  • She uses her W to create 'gardens' making her much more static and vulnerable.

Obviously there are good and bad things about this, but frankly it'll be a lot more fun to play than her current kit.

#Technical details.

  • Once planted seeds spawn and maintain any up to 5 'seedlings' within a certain radius of the planted seed, location at random (except for when in bushes).
  • If seeds are planted in bushes, that bush will fill up with seedlings.
  • For the sake of gameplay clarity, there should be a bar with 5 slots on top of seeds, each seedling within the radius take up one slot.
  • If you plant 2 seeds within close proximity, the 2nd seed will fill up slots equivalent to the amount of seedlings already planted within it's radius.
  • Seedlings start spawning at 8 sec, with a 3 sec interval, this means that it'll take 20 sec for all 5 seedlings to have spawned.
  • Seedlings can survive for 2-10 sec without seeds around, increased by W skill level.
  • Seed life duration start at 30 sec increases to 45 sec at skill level 5. (+2.5 sec per level)

New passive Vengeful Garden: Upon dying, spawn 5 plants that focus champions.

balbraaksel8/26/2016, 11:13:03 PM1 votes

I like 10% scaling CDR from runes + 5% from masteries. Then build: item 3020 item 3165 item 3151 item 2301 item 3135 item 3512

CDR maxed at level 18, a bit of health, armor and magic resist and a solid anti tank build.

Evewynn8/27/2016, 3:46:53 AM1 votes

I think care needs to be taken in regards to any buffs. She's currently very strong in the mid lane, at least in my experience, so there needs to be a way to buff her support role without giving her as much solo power.

Jeanne fan club8/27/2016, 10:31:20 AM1 votes

If her W had a better "minion block", it would increase the skill cap, making her much better for experienced players. It would add a whole 'nother dimension to her play rather than just q/e and spam w near them. This is only for her W, not her passive seeds by the way.

As the current 471st best zyra in the world, I think that any changes to her numbers would be unnecessary, she does damage if you build her damage, and she can still make use of non ap items just because of the different ways you can play her. You can sit back and poke, or flash in for an assassination. Her numbers are balanced, and to be honest I think she is balanced as a whole right now. However, this thread is about how zyra can be buffed, so I thought I would mention a buff that doesn't disrupt her numbers, because at the moment I think they are fine.