Deadman's Plate Is Still Weak - A Suggestion & More Defined Identity

wobaji·May 8, 2018·39 votes·15,815 views

80% gold efficiency with a mostly utility passive doesn't seem that appealing. It's true that at 79 stacks it's gold-efficient but that disappears the second you use it and even at max stacks it's just 105% gold efficient. Deadman's fully stacked only does 100 single target magic damage once and it's used up even if you attack a monster or minion. I don't mind this at all because it can make clearing more efficient while also providing situational windows of power but the point is that it's not 100% uptime like for the passives on Thornmail, Sunfire, Randuin's etc.

Randuin's has an AoE slow and the 20% crit. reduction is always useful as long as they have a champion buying crit. such as Yasuo, Cait etc. It also reduces AS by 15% which can be very helpful for your team. Sunfire's not really in the same class but 43 magic damage per second is nothing to sneeze at and can apply in AoE (helps pushing too). Thornmail has grievous wounds, does 35+ return damage to any attacker, cripples their AS and provides 40 more armor at the expense of 150 HP. All of these items seem a lot better either for your team as a whole or your own power.

Deadman's offers more subtle power in terms of play-making and utility but it's just not on par. When I think of utility, IBG comes to mind. It offers a large slow zone, Sheen damage for a fast power spike and a massive 20% CDR. The mana on IBG is excessive and I'd gladly trade it for some HP but it still fits utility builds better. If Deadman's is to compete with this while being 200g more expensive, it should offer some CDR too. 10% CDR is worth 266g and that's a reasonable spot for it.

IBG would still be the utility Sheen item with the most CDR on an armor item but Deadman's would be better cemented in its category as the play-making utility option and it would start to appeal to more junglers too. It would fulfill a very important niche as a CDR + HP & Armor item. Abyssal has CDR, Spirit Visage has CDR, Adaptive Helm has CDR. There's a gap in itemization. Currently, IBG is the only aggressive armor item to offer this combination and it's not good on manaless users or if you want some protection vs magic damage too. Plus, IBG is about being sticky once you reach a target while Deadman's is more about getting to that target in the first place.

EDIT: If 10% CDR sounds like too much of a buff, perhaps the slow can be increased by .5 seconds. This is a decent place to start because it focuses on its play-making aspect - solidifying its identity. Just test various options but don't weaken its identity. Although, I'd rather have 10% CDR and fewer defensive stats because I don't buy Deadman's for the greatest ban/buck defensive slot item. That usually ends up being Randuin's.

54 Comments

MadVikingMay 8, 201810 votes

If plate offered cdr it would be my first armor item on a fighter that's for sure.

You make good points. I play a lot of Nasus and when I need more armor that's probably the last item I even consider after ny core items. I almost always go into Zzrots/Banner, or Randuins for amor.

It's stats could get beefed up a bit.

PrometheSMay 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If plate offered cdr it would be my first armor item on a fighter that's for sure.

You make good points. I play a lot of Nasus and when I need more armor that's probably the last item I even consider after ny core items. I almost always go into Zzrots/Banner, or Randuins for amor.

It's stats could get beefed up a bit.

They made the stats very similar specifically so you pick the item based on game situations or style and not raw stats. CDR is definitely missing on armor items compared to magic resistance items. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because armor items already have so many passives. Maybe they didn't want you to overcap CDR by accident? Now that we have Transcendence, that's not even much of an issue.

DuskDaUmbreonMay 8, 20181 votes

It's probably because armor items just have more passives in general.

Also, it's probably because CDR on it would just make it too good for tanks against juggernauts, since it'd give every stat a tank could want except mana and MR, there.

wobajiMay 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

If plate offered cdr it would be my first armor item on a fighter that's for sure.

You make good points. I play a lot of Nasus and when I need more armor that's probably the last item I even consider after ny core items. I almost always go into Zzrots/Banner, or Randuins for amor.

It's stats could get beefed up a bit.

In that case, do you think 10% CDR would make it too "obviously best" as an early item on that class? We don't want that either. If that's the case, maybe it's better just to give it a very tiny buff like another 25 HP or 6 more MS. **Thinking about it more, maybe the 50% slow for melees can be made to be 2 seconds like IBG or at least 1.5 seconds. This would be a small buff without having to change any stats and I think .5 seconds more of slowing is a very safe buff. **_Perhaps I am wrong and it's not weaker. I definitely like its passives for champions that want mobility + a bit of stickiness and damage.

Although, I suppose it's natural that some items will just almost always be preferred by certain types of champs and that doesn't necessarily mean they're OP. I'm going to want SV as my MR item on any champion with healing such as Mundo, WW, Aatrox, Nasus, Singed, champs buying lifesteal items or gunblade etc. That's just working as intended though. If I were buying SV as a core item on Nautilus or Skarner, maybe it's an issue.

Z3SleeperMay 10, 20181 votes

Buffing the slow makes it better for everyone, meaning better for tanks more than anyone. CDR kinda does the same-ish thing. The secret to making it better for the intended users lies somewhere in its passive.

Personally, I think adding a base AD ratio would work. Or tenacity, or slow resistance. Basically anything a Fighter would want more than a Tank.

nuleticMay 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Buffing the slow makes it better for everyone, meaning better for tanks more than anyone. CDR kinda does the same-ish thing. The secret to making it better for the intended users lies somewhere in its passive.

Personally, I think adding a base AD ratio would work. Or tenacity, or slow resistance. Basically anything a Fighter would want more than a Tank.

tanks love tenacity and slow resistance too and some tanks such as Skarner have huge base ADs

plus, why make it randomly better on some champs. just because they RNGd better AD? what's wrong with it being a good option for tanks who desire those things? unless it's broken or not suitable for any other kinds of champs, I don't see the problem.

the way I see it, the richer the itemization and the more you use it based on your preferences and style rather than your defined champ/class, the better. I don't even want a "you're X champ, so you must build this and if you're a random Evelynn wanting this item, it'll be shit" type of binary itemization. there are already enough reasons why I wouldn't go this on champs like Eve just because I want AP, want good actives like Zhonya's, want better slot efficiency and so on

if you want to go that route to incentivize other types of champs more, maybe make it scale with 10% bonus AP and AD for its damage. I'm a bit scared of a GB Akali or LB roaming with it though. :D

I think buffing the slow by half a second is actually better than this because it appeals to everyone but matters more for squishy champions because they naturally tend to have less CC in their kits and depend more on finding the right openings than a tank. It's less punishing for a tank to fail an engage compared to let's say a Diana who can just barely fail a kill and then dies for nothing. Fighters like Darius, Fiora, Jax and others all have far less CC than tanks. Nautilus, Maokai and others like them have so much CC already that they don't really care about another 0.5 seconds added to the slow. They also can't utilize that time particularly well. A fed Fiora or Camille maybe can take 10% of your HP in 0.5 seconds but a Maokai just whittles you down. In other words, 0.5 sec more of a slow appeals much more to damage champions and especially those who need to stick to a target and aren't just going to sit in the middle of the entire teamfight like an Amumu.

Critmaster GarenMay 8, 20188 votes

what ever happened to the idea to make the damage on dead mans 100 stack proc scale with base ad?

PrometheSMay 8, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0x5h63dx,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-08T17:38:21.190+0000)

what ever happened to the idea to make the damage on dead mans 100 stack proc scale with base ad?

I don't like that at all. It makes it much more champion specific rather than stylistic or game specific. Champions with low base AD, especially AP champions would just find it really unattractive even if they otherwise liked it. I think it's great they made it magic damage because even for ADs magic damage tends to hurt more and it's more viable if you're a magic damage dealer too. Plus before, it used to give a stack for Black Cleaver which again made it much more attractive to ADs.

Critmaster GarenMay 8, 20185 votes

{quoted}

I don't like that at all. It makes it much more champion specific rather than stylistic or game specific. Champions with low base AD, especially AP champions would just find it really unattractive even if they otherwise liked it. I think it's great they made it magic damage because even for ADs magic damage tends to hurt more and it's more viable if you're a magic damage dealer too. Plus before, it used to give a stack for Black Cleaver which again made it much more attractive to ADs.

i dont see the issue. its supposed to be primarily a fighter item after all, and even ap scaling fighters have above average base ad.

Mordekaiser has 146 base ad for example, which is one of the highest values in the game.

Rumble gets 115 which is still pretty high.

IfnethMay 9, 20181 votes

I think we can do better. Deadman’s Plate is all about getting into the fight and, per the quote, staying there. What if we gave it Sterak’s Gage’s shield passive and lowered Sterak’s Gage’s combine cost?

Critmaster GarenMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This gives me an idea...

Deadman’s Plate - At 100 Stacks, your next basic attack deals your AD/AP as adaptive damage on-hit.

nah. that just turns it into an assassin item.

IfnethMay 9, 20181 votes

Yeah. I thought better of it and changed my idea.

Malicious MetalMay 9, 20181 votes

Well, Morde shouldn't really bother with tank items. The entire champion revolves around building pure glass cannon in order to actually be relevant.

Anu3isIIMay 8, 20182 votes

My only problem with this suggestion is that it would be a great buff for champions who build item 3078 item 3053 , and as a result the base stats/base damage of the proc would be nerfed to counterbalance the overall change.

While Deadmans is a great item for Juggernauts and Divers, I believe it is healthier to keep it as a Tank oriented item that helps champions in their engage/roams, not as a burst all-in kind of item like item 3147 .

PB4UAMEMay 8, 20187 votes

Its specifically designed to be a Juggernaut/Diver/Fighter item, not a tank item.

McsquzzyMay 9, 20181 votes

you named 4 of the 6 items i run on bush master garen

DeusVultMay 8, 20187 votes

IBG is the only armor item to offer CDR

item 3110 ???

Also to a lesser extent tanks can pick up item 3800 item 3060

SaezioMay 8, 20185 votes

{quoted}

IBG is the only armor item to offer CDR

???

Also to a lesser extent tanks can pick up

Yeah but still no item for manaless champions.

SelegunMay 8, 20187 votes

item 3109 and item 3056

Do you have some other descriptor or requirement for the item?

SaezioMay 8, 20184 votes

{quoted}

and

Do you have some other descriptor or requirement for the item?

Touche my friend. but you are right. you get an upvote because u fked me up there. xD

SelegunMay 9, 20182 votes

lol, no worries man. I forgot about Kight's Vow myself and considering the bashing the boards likes to give Ohmwrecker I dont blame anyone besides myself for not building one.

wobajiMay 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

IBG is the only armor item to offer CDR

???

Also to a lesser extent tanks can pick up

You’re right. I meant as a slot efficient armor item and especially one that does damage a bit like Sunfire or Thornmail.

HammermancerMay 8, 20183 votes

it should have its passive changed to grant base ad and tenacity instead of a slow and the shitty mini-static shiv, this would make it synergize with iceborn and steraks making a powerful tank

PrometheSMay 8, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0x5h63dx,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-05-08T17:57:00.465+0000)

it should have its passive changed to grant base ad and tenacity instead of a slow and the shitty mini-static shiv, this would make it synergize with iceborn and steraks making a powerful tank

This would make it so niche though. Right now you can build Deadman's even on stuff like Evelynn (vs full AD or a Kha etc.) and not feel like it's terrible for you. Maybe it's not optimal still but it's viable.

DoozkuMay 8, 20182 votes

Perhaps they could make it adaptive? I don't know of a direct translation from AP to AD but I feel like just making it be standard AP would be fine.

C9 Squeeky May 8, 20182 votes

"Dead Man's" maybe it should power up every time you die, up to a cap ofc.

SaezioMay 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

"Dead Man's" maybe it should power up every time you die, up to a cap ofc.

I love the way you think. It would be amazing to make it synergize with death somehow, maybe deal magic damage to the one that kills you or grant them less gold, Singed would love it :D. I know it would only be a minor buff but we need some crazy items, everything is just too boxed at the moment. All the fun items like Atmas or Sword of the Occult are long gone. We need something trollish. Or maybe make it grant resistances to your team if you die near them. I love the kamikaze idea. OOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRR simply make it have -15% time Dead or some flat seconds, without runes there is no way to reduce death timer

RyusaetherMay 9, 20181 votes

This would lead into feeding Singed back.

What about people you kill? Like buffs on takedowns etc, though this would make it a scaling and situational item.

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 8, 20182 votes

more cdr? do we really want transcendence to become a must pick?

My Waifu VanillaMay 9, 20182 votes

Tanks are the one class that actually have CDR problems. You are pretty much never capping CDR or coming close unless you buy FH or IBG which are both incredibly niche items since they give ZERO health and thus causes you to get shredded by the enemy mage midgame since you dumped ~3000g into straight armor. You will end up getting like 10% from an MR item, 10% from a righteous glory or something, and maybe 10% from warmogs if the game goes long enough and you are constantly seiging. The only CDR that a tank is currently "guarenteed" to pick up is off an MR item. Nothing else gives a relevant amount on an item that matters to tanks (health+something).

Fighters also tend to only get 20% from their Trinity/BC and then 10% from an MR item late game thus also never capping. Not everyone is a support or mage in terms of CDR abundance.

PopcornBunniMay 9, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0x5h63dx,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-05-09T01:19:20.125+0000)

Tanks are the one class that actually have CDR problems. You are pretty much never capping CDR or coming close unless you buy FH or IBG which are both incredibly niche items since they give ZERO health and thus causes you to get shredded by the enemy mage midgame since you dumped ~3000g into straight armor. You will end up getting like 10% from an MR item, 10% from a righteous glory or something, and maybe 10% from warmogs if the game goes long enough and you are constantly seiging. The only CDR that a tank is currently "guarenteed" to pick up is off an MR item. Nothing else gives a relevant amount on an item that matters to tanks (health+something).

Iceborn is a really common pick up for physical tanks, and even without it, any three of item 3065 item 3800 item 3001 item 3194 item 3083 let transcendence's flexibility kick in and give the rest.

Shrek LuigiMay 8, 20182 votes

it was mostly being picked up by fighters transitioning out of, like, 3 AD items.....trying to beef up for those midgame fiestas. HASAKI! Yasuo

my theory is that the new movespeed-related runes + the mandatory item 3071 / item 3078 buy are this item's biggest achilles' heel since it makes whatever unique benifit this item provides a lot less relevant. to the point where the bonus stats it gives are a lot more valuable, which could be picked up elsewhere.

they should just turn it into a gragas-style dash active....would be so fun to add an additional smashy-gap-closer to a few champions' kits, and would probably have a lot of fun applications elsewhere.

RyusaetherMay 9, 20181 votes

Man, I grant you you don't want a mini-dash on these people Darius DrMundo Garen LeeSin Nasus Pantheon Sion Warwick Skarner Jax

Shrek LuigiMay 9, 20181 votes

what I had in mind was an AOE slow on impact--in the vein of DMP being what it is--rather than the brief CC gragas has on his......and maybe even like 2/3 the range of Gragas' if that would still be too overbearing. i don't think that's too unreasonable given that a few of those champs are actually in a pretty poor spot.

RyusaetherMay 10, 20181 votes

Give that to a Darius, Sion, Garen and you'll be locked in hell. Just imagine Darius Coming at you with Q, E, AA, Item Active, AA, W and he now has all his CDs up. Brr, I'm shivering

nuleticMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Give that to a Darius, Sion, Garen and you'll be locked in hell. Just imagine Darius Coming at you with Q, E, AA, Item Active, AA, W and he now has all his CDs up. Brr, I'm shivering

It's 10% CDR not an instant 100%. It's usually just fractions of a second off abilities.

RyusaetherMay 10, 20181 votes

What? I was answering Shrek Luigi who proposed a tanky item with a mini-dash+knockup like gragas' bodyslam, not to the OP.

Sire HippingtonMay 9, 20182 votes

i don't think slapping cdr on everything is the solution. Deadmens is an armoe item that focuses on mobillity, so the obvious thing to do would be building it from item 2053 , add the hp/5 and point runner, take off some of the ms from the built up and increase the gold cost slightly to compensate for point runner and see what happens.

YoRHa 2BMay 9, 20181 votes

But, did you know that item 3742 damage can crit?

Warlord RhinarkMay 9, 20182 votes

Source?

YoRHa 2BMay 9, 20182 votes

When one for all was still up someone selected Kata and we had to play with her vs Zed, and me being me wanted to play tank Kata because why not. I build item 3742 and I build item 3046 for fun and I noticed that I crited with magic dmg and since I didn't bought item 3087 I was confused and then tried to to crit with some 's stacks to see if it was it and then I found out that I can deal more dmg with if I have some crit

Warlord RhinarkMay 9, 20182 votes

That's still not really a source but I couldn't care less if this was actually true or not.

Building Deadmans on a champion that's also building crit doesn't make a lot of sense.

SpoofghoulMay 9, 20182 votes

but it does make sense

you see zeal items grant % movespeed you get 2 of them and deadmans and you can skip building boots

well deadmans will now double as boots except unlike normal boots this pair gives you a bunch of hp armor and bonus magic crit damage because why the f not

Warlord RhinarkMay 10, 20182 votes

I mean.

Fair point.

But not only are you missing out on the slow (I'm assuming you're playing on a ranged character), you're also delaying your damage items.

Since crit items don't give damage on their own, building crit without any damage isn't that great.

YoRHa 2BMay 10, 20182 votes

Well, atleast you know that Deadman's dmg can crit.

PokladnicaZlaMay 9, 20181 votes

How about it gave only MS towards the target that's dealing damage to you? The more they damage you the more ms you get towards the target/s. It would be useful on champions who need to stick to their target during fights.

wobajiMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

How about it gave only MS towards the target that's dealing damage to you? The more they damage you the more ms you get towards the target/s. It would be useful on champions who need to stick to their target during fights.

That's pretty cool if true but I can't imagine many situations where a champion buying crit. would also buy DMP.

wobajiMay 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

How about it gave only MS towards the target that's dealing damage to you? The more they damage you the more ms you get towards the target/s. It would be useful on champions who need to stick to their target during fights.

Idk, one of the best things about it is exactly that it gives you conditional MS which YOU choose how to use. Such restraints would make it clunky for me. There are already items like Righteous Glory that focus more on very conditional MS for engaging. DMP can even help someone escape when collapsed on or allow sneaky plays.

PopcornBunniMay 9, 20181 votes

Deadman's suffers from the problem of most tank items in that it isn't slot efficient for what it gives. item 3068 gets by on it busted passive and item 3065 by being the only real viable MR item.

I say up the price by 300 gold, and add 10 Armor and 75 health to it to really sell it as the bulk juggernaut and tank item against physical damage. Its passive lends it to being a late game pickup anyway, and adding an extra item 1029 to its build path wouldn't hurt. It still wouldn't be quite gold efficient, but it would provide a much better statline in final builds, and would get to stat efficiency much sooner.

wobajiMay 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Deadman's suffers from the problem of most tank items in that it isn't slot efficient for what it gives. gets by on it busted passive and by being the only real viable MR item.

I say up the price by 300 gold, and add 10 Armor and 75 health to it to really sell it as the bulk juggernaut and tank item against physical damage. Its passive lends it to being a late game pickup anyway, and adding an extra to its build path wouldn't hurt. It still wouldn't be quite gold efficient, but it would provide a much better statline in final builds, and would get to stat efficiency much sooner.

I think Adaptive Helm has its place and is the better option vs stuff like Brand, Teemo or Kayle. I'd buy Helm over Visage even on WW if facing such champion. I agree that DMP isn't the most slot efficient though and that's why I think CDR would give me more of a reason to build it without having to touch the defensive stats or make the passive OP.

If it's too much to give it 10% CDR, they could just up the old cost by 50-100g on the big ticket armor items. For example they could give them 50 more HP but make them 3k. Instead of the HP, Deadman's could get the 10% CDR.** Although since it's more of a play-making option you want early, it probably makes more sense to decrease the stats a little and give 10% CDR without increasing the price. For example, its HP could be reduced by 25, bringing it to the same value as Randuin's.**