Seriously, if you're going to complain about Garen, please complain about the Villain passive

dustinhihi2·Oct 7, 2015·101 votes·4,737 views

Because when I see those "omg his silence lasts forever", "hes too tanky wtffff" and "i cant kite him wttttffffffffffff" posts, I seriously question myself about intelligence on Earth.

Literally all those abilities have been nerfed just for the gimmick Villain passive.

Here's a list if you don't believe me:

BASE STATS: - HP per level reduced to 84.25 from 96.

Movement Speed reduced to 340 from 345.

Q: - Movement Speed Boost duration reduced to 1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 seconds from 1.5/2.25/3/3.75/4.5 seconds

Movement Speed Boost reduced to 30% from 35%.
Silence duration reduced to 1.5 at all ranks from 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 seconds.

W: - No longer grants Bonus Armor and Magic Resist based on your Bonus Armor and Magic Resist.

Tenacity component removed from Active.

E: - Damage reduced overall until lvl 16. There are maths to prove it.

Only deals 75% damage to multiple units now (used to be only on minions).

Please, stop complaining about him, there are way worse champions than him, and he's sitting at a 52% winrate in Platinium+ with a small 8-10% play rate.

He's fucking fine for god damn sake.

89 Comments

EedatOct 7, 201530 votes

THANK YOU

HayRossOct 7, 201521 votes

THANK YOU! As a Garen main, I'm tired of people shitting on Garen for doing stuff he's always been able to do better. Do you stupid fucks even read the patch notes?

SweetiexOct 7, 20156 votes

{quoted}

THANK YOU! As a Garen main, I'm tired of people shitting on Garen for doing stuff he's always been able to do better. Do you stupid fucks even read the patch notes?

Yea, except all the item changes and the changes to his ult alone, made him 20 times better than he was.

ShonjlOct 7, 201527 votes

Item changes? You mean how they nerfed all tanky items in the game? Or the god forbid Dead man's that works well on him just like it does on almost any top laner?

Also ohh no, his ult does true damage to the villian....you do realize that it is mostly meaningless right? Seeing as if you were like 30% hp before as anything but a tank his excute ult killed you regardless.

It seriously hurts my brain that people think he is strong now, I wish they could have seen old Garen.

Sire HippingtonOct 8, 20153 votes

i don't wpnder that they thinkhe's strong now, cause he is, but it is beyond me why anyone thought old garen wasn't as strong....same with Darius.

Chaotic SageOct 8, 20151 votes

Pretty sure they see the high true damage number and go OMG OP. You know, rather than realizing they only had around 600 HP left and 200 (meh, maths, lazy, hope point is gotten anyway) less magic than true damage would have killed them anyway.

ShonjlOct 10, 20152 votes

Basically this, his ult if I recall does 1 more damage for every 2 or 3 missing health. So if you have say 2k hp and you are down to 500. It is doing 750-500+whatever the base is on it, so really all the true damage on his ult is literally nothing. All Villian really means is his E hits them vastly harder, if you were that low before, it didn't matter if it was magic or true, you were dead.

People need to learn to look at numbers before complaining. His ult didn't get stronger at all, 90% of the time its on the adc anyways which has no defenses at all, so god forbid that true damage is doing like 20-50 more damage when it is already overkilling you when its in range to kill you to begin with.

Chaotic SageOct 12, 20151 votes

Exactly this. Thank you.

The SoulforgedOct 8, 201522 votes

The dfg removal made garen 20x worse than before.

Little Stick ManOct 8, 20154 votes

rip in peace dfg garen

JediSenpaiNPOct 9, 20151 votes

*DFGaren

DemaciaClownOct 8, 20154 votes

ty dfg

71389310_DELOct 12, 20151 votes

I remember DFG + Veigar on my first account. I remember DFG just being all-around wonderful for almost anybody with strong magic-damage skill. I remember when Riot made that song about the DFG ( click here to listen ) named after the DFG for the Pentakill skin series. :'( Sometimes I think that, if they ever rework Karthus or Veigar they should rename the ult after DFG.

Ty DFG; RIP.

The SoulforgedOct 12, 20151 votes

in memory of Jorn Lande they remove dfg from the game... really rito?

Ticklish TasOct 8, 20158 votes

>small 8-10% >small

lol

Duchess of DeerOct 8, 20152 votes

Exactly if each games has 20 player there is a very good chance he will be on your team

qetzelOct 7, 20157 votes

Now that he has the villain passive the other benefits to his kit - like the silence, tankiness and slow removal - are a problem. It just goes to show how much weaker a champion is if they don't threaten any damage.

Removing or greatly lessening the threat he offers - the villain passive - is not the way to go. It will remove the threat that he needs to be relevant. Making it possible to avoid that threat by nerfing the silence (can jump away), tankiness (can burst him down first), or slow removal (can kite more easily) would be better. If he needs nerfs, that is. Not sure...

On the other point, ~8% is average, and 51.9% is rather high for players with little experience on the champion.

I am not sure he needs nerfs. There are ways to deal with him. If he does though then the mini game is not necessarily the problem. The problem is how easy it is for him to win it.

Sire HippingtonOct 8, 20152 votes

If pre-rework garen wasn't a threat, it was the players fault. He did more than enough dmage if built/played correctly... And his stats besides pickrate weren't much different from now

And his villiab mechanic is just bad. It feels horrible playing vs hm, getting punished for doing well, especially on a tanky melee...

A Miss FortuneOct 8, 20155 votes

I remember that if you dared to say that Garen was even remotely overpowering in any way at all prior to his rework, people would just call you a troll. Now people are calling him freelo after everything in his kit was nerfed/removed (Free AR, MR, Tenacity, more mobility, more damage, more CC, more sustain, more damage) because Garen can potentially do true damage to one person on a team after level 6.

Social Justice 1Oct 7, 20154 votes

I didn't have to complain because people weren't playing him before.

Not to mention that the change to items that came before/with the juggernaut rework really helped him out.

StephenizgodOct 7, 20154 votes

Whenever i played at him my teammates would complain, enemies would laugh and say "Garen in ranked? GG EZ win ty for free LP" and then im 20/2 and trying to carry my garbage teammates... So Garen has always been strong, like really really strong, but it is true that Dead Mans is too good on him.

AuryielOct 8, 20153 votes

Here's why your argument about complaining about his tankyness or silence duration are irrelevant : Before, those did not matter. They were nerfed, yes, but his damage to tankyness ratio has gone way, WAY up. That's why people complain about those things.

Just because something about his kit was nerfed doesn't allow you to look at his current kit in a vacuum and say ''well those areas were stronger before so people who complain about it are stupid''.

Either wat idgaf I only play ARAM, but your reasoning is really flawed.

JariOct 8, 20153 votes

People are arguing that Garen's silence needs to be nerfed, as well as his movespeed. What was nerfed before the complaints already? Oh right.

AuryielOct 8, 20151 votes

And that was totally irrelevant before, because his damage was laughable. Now, his silence enables him to stick to targets for longer periods of time, thus enabling him to dish out even more of his superior damage potential.

Do you not see this or are you just purposefully trying to ignore it?

JariOct 8, 20151 votes

Did I say that his damage was bad? No. I didn't. I'm saying that the complaints I see are NOT about his damage usually. It's about the fact that a 1.5 second silence is too long. That's why I said that they're complaining about the silence, not the damage.

AuryielOct 8, 20151 votes

People complain about the silence because of his damage.

Yes, his silence was longer before but that wasn't as much of an issue because of his low damage.

Same for his tankyness. It's lower than it used to be, yes. However, his damage is way higher now so you notice way more how much damage he can soak when your own HP bar disappears quickly.

JariOct 8, 20151 votes

But my point is that when I see people usually complain about him, they don't mention his damage. They mention

-His Silence

-His Movespeed

-His Tankiness making him unkillable

Is his damage high? If you're the villain yes. Maybe even if you aren't, could still do a bit. But if the problem is the damage, why complain about the three spots that were weakened and saying that they're the problem? Again, I hear about those usually, not his damage.

AuryielOct 8, 20153 votes

Because they only matter because his damage is high.

Pre-rework Garen was faster, tankier and had a longer silence. No one gave a fuck because his damage was low. Now is damage his high. Suddenly, those things become problematic in the eyes of many.

I don't think people think it is unfair that Garen does damage. However, they do think it is unfair that he has all that AND damage.

His silence, MS and tankyness are not a problem in a world where you can semi ignore him during fights, but they become problematic when he can delete you easily.

Sire HippingtonOct 8, 20152 votes

People saying garens damage was irrelevant simply haven't seen a well played garen... I never had the problem that my damage is to little with garen, vs a squishy, q+e+r always was enough for me at any state of the game.

Kas127Oct 7, 20152 votes

Seriously, if you are going to make a post with a nonsense title at least don't contradict yourself.

Garen is good early game. However, he sucks lategame because his items are really weak against the amount of damage champs can dish out at that point. He doesn't have anything to complain about. Although, with the 31st of Oct just around the corner, I think Riot will need to nerf his bushes. They are scarier than Evelyn's stealth.

ShonjlOct 7, 201510 votes

Good early game? There is nothing good about his early lol, at least nothing good vs how he used to be. Yet no one complained then. Learn to play against him before you complain.

People are only complaining about him since he is played now and is relevant vs before where he barely was.

Kas127Oct 7, 20152 votes

At lvl6 he can easily kill a squishy which makes him a perfect ganker. I have 4 mastery on him, so I know what I am talking about.
I did not complain.
I played him quite frequently a week ago (before they fixed his E bug, which did too much damage), and I didn't hear people complaining about him. Right now, you are the only one complaining about people who supposedly complain about him

P.S. I stopped playing him atm because I wanted to try different champs. Right now I am with Nidalee.

ShonjlOct 8, 20155 votes

"Looks at title"

"Sees its about Garen QQ"

You were saying?

All people have to blame is themselves, Garen was never used before so now that he is viable, people cry crocodile tears since they refuse to learn to fight him, even in a weaker state. Most Garen players would happily get rid of Villian for old Garen.

Slamurai JackOct 8, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Most Garen players would happily get rid of Villian for old Garen.

That's definitely not true. I highly prefer the new Garen to the old one. I love that my E actually has meaningful scaling. I love that the W passive was changed so I can afford to rush health items without feeling like I'm being punished. And the villain system, cheesy as it is, is just oh so fun to use. Old Garen fell off really hard just to get to be a lane bully that is beaten by pretty much any intelligent opponent. This Garen actually feels impactful past the 25 minute mark.

BastionKrossOct 8, 20151 votes

I agree. Old Garen had stronger abilities, but they fell off hard late game. Since the only utility Garen brings to the table is a silence, New Garen is much more viable late game.

Before when you picked Garen it was a race against the clock to finish the match before it went on so long you became nearly useless as anything other than a punching bag. Now, Garen doesn't have to "beat the clock", which I think is healthier.

MetalGearTeemuOct 8, 20151 votes

the only utility he has is nerfed and now he's better late? The thing that made old garen bad late was his inability to stick to targets or even reach them at all.

All these things are worse now, on top of his tank items all being nerfed.

this is more of that head scratching thing that really makes me wonder what the community is sniffing.

BastionKrossOct 8, 20151 votes

His utility got nerfed, but in return his E actually increases its ticks as the game goes on, and the villain system keeps his spin, ult, and auto relevant no matter what stage of the game the match is in. Garen traded a being a silence bot with tickle damage late game for tons of damage at all points in the game; I'd say that's a damn good trade.

And what Garen tank item nerfs? Thornmail? Randuins may be slightly worse statistically, but the slow was buffed to help him stick. And with the introduction of items like item 3742 item 3053 item 3748 Garen's just fine item-wise.

MetalGearTeemuOct 8, 20151 votes

Garens damage has always been sufficient to kill carries late even before his rework, but pre-rework he actually had the ability to stick if he got to his target.

now he doesn't have this. people post massive ult numbers all the time, but the villain will most likely be the APC or ADC, neither of which is going to have resistances, making the gain from the true damage negligible. He can explode tanks with it, but the odds of the tank being the villain are quite slim.

BastionKrossOct 8, 20151 votes

If you built damage as Garen for the late game, you were squishier than you should be. If you built tanky, you did no damage later on. Now, with the villain mechanic, Garen can build mostly tank and still do lots and lots of damage to the enemy carry. He gets the best of both worlds as long as he's attacking his villain. Which he should always be, since that's his job in teamfights as an anti-carry.

And what's this "he can't stick to his target anymore"? MS he lost on his Q is more than made up for by item 3742 . The tenacity on his W was nice, but it's not like item 3111 are out of the question. What's left? A second of silence off his maxed Q? That may hurt a little bit, but being kited slightly easier is the price you pay. His spin also no longer slows him. Ever. That goes a long way toward making up some ground as well.

As much as I like Old Garen, the new one I find is superior. He's got less utility, and he gets kited a little more often than before, but he traded those in for %HP true damage on two of his skills and also his auto attacks.

MetalGearTeemuOct 8, 20151 votes

see this is the voice of inexperience right here.

Garen only ever built cleaver before as well, maybe you got yourself a second damage item if you were way ahead. This was still enough to threaten carries, arguably more so since he shut down their mobility if he reached them for longer, and had an easier ( lawl ) time reaching them then he does now. Deadmans plate is only scary if your team doe snot have CC to apply to Garen.

If you let Garen run directly at your carry with Deadmans then you're doing it wrong.

he's got less utility, he gets kited a lot more, and he traded it all for an unreliable mechanic which may or may not actually be of use in the teamfight based on who its on. Its just another example of riots hard on for taking away play options from Garen, and putting those options in the hands of the enemy player.

FostXTVOct 8, 20152 votes

Yeah, just complain about Garen. I like how you all are complaining. Yes, he is op and he deserves to be. Just check his lore and you will know. He is one of main people in Demacia, he slained Urgot, he fought with Katarina and many more. Also, while you are complaining about Garen you should check Katarina. She has no mana and she has low cooldowns and basically if she is ahead she will one shot your whole team with only one fking button. So please..

The GovernerOct 8, 20152 votes

People forget the actual problem is not only Garen's Villain passive, but also how DMP item 3742 synergizes with him. The culprit is this item, which provides too much movement speed, too much HP and too much armor and auto attack amplification for such a low cost. It's easily one of the cost-effective items, and I think for an item that does this much and works so well with Garen's Q, it should be nerfed (for the sake of other Jaggernauts like Darius Darius too). We can also argue that his AD per level is a little too high, to the point that he is one of the Top 5 champions in the List of Base AD at level 18, and whether or not it should be nerfed depends on whether how DMP is/could be/will be nerfed really.

Neither his Silence, nor his tankiness are the culprit. They are fine as they should be.

P.S. Also you forgot to mention his E that can

deal 33% more damage against isolated target, and
generate more ticks (aka more damage) the higher Garen's level is.
no longer reduce your movement speed if you hit enemy minions with it.

The 33% amplification may be a downgrade since it used to be "33% more damage on enemy champions", regardless of how many enemies are hit by E, but the second feature is pretty much a new feature in Garen's rework that generates more DPS the longer the game goes and both the second and the third feature pretty much nullify the "nerf" of the first feature, and therefore I think it could use some tuning too.

I am also confused as to your statement regarding his E dealing 75% damage to multiple units and dealing overall less damage than E of pre-rework Garen until level 16, care to explain and share your evidence about that?

ahferroin7Oct 8, 20152 votes

To quote Einstein: "Two things are infinite in life, the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe."

Krys StarOct 8, 20152 votes

Well, to be fair, he's sitting at a 52% win rate with 8-10% pick rate because of his high bans. That's a really high win rate when you take his small pick rate into consideration. I, personally, find Garen to be dealt with as long as he doesn't get a huge lead start. He can be kited and dealt with, and I don't think his Villain is really the problem. I think it has to do with his passive that makes him heal up way too quickly when you punish him and don't kill him. My two cents, however.

JariOct 8, 20151 votes

Looking at solo Q all ranks, Amumu has a 54.1% win rate at a 9.4% pick rate. Does that mean he's even more OP than Garen, since he has even higher with a similar pick rate?

Also, it's a 16.3% ban rate on Garen. He has about the same ban rate as Riven. I don't think that's uneededly high #DariusWithHisalmost90%banrate

Krys StarOct 8, 20151 votes

I don't know what stats you're looking at, but

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.banRate&order=descend

suggests he has a 68.75% ban rate. Also Amumu has a high win rate because he's a team-fight oriented champion. He has powerful cc, and good damage on top of being a tank with pretty good ganks and amazing team fighting capabilities. But this is about Garen, however, not Amumu. You can punish Amumu, counter Amumu, and he wont heal up at an extremely absurd rate if he doesn't die by idling about.

JariOct 8, 20151 votes

I was looking at all ranks, not plat +. Apologies. My point was just saying that Amumu had a similar spot for win rate according to all ranked levels, but he isn't mentioned usually.

Again, apologies, I should have looked at higher than just all areas. I did mention that though. He likely just has a higher ban rate higher up compared to lower.

ZT XperimentorOct 8, 20152 votes

Vulgarity is no substitute for wit

SKOBODOOct 8, 20151 votes

I think the villain passive was a mistake. Sure, it added some interesting gameplay for Garen, but it also made him too strong in 1v 1s versus villains, and it made him weaker overall versus non-villains.