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So Repertoir wants to talk about Quinn in other threads...

Hellioning·2/7/2016, 3:57:05 AM·16 votes·3,153 views

Okay.

> {quoted} > > Though I think the champion we made with Quinn's update is a good one, I do acknowledge it came at a cost I'd like to avoid in future updates, hence all this early communication and what-not. > > I'm happy to answer questions about Quinn in other threads, but I'd like to keep this one about mages, which is what the post was originally about, and I want to be respectful of the creator. So this will be the last Quinn-related question I'll address. > > Quinn had assassination elements, but she could hardly be considered a good assassin. She relied on bullying in lane to get ahead, and had a notorious reputation for being useless when behind. With the exception of her blind, which she used to enable her bullying, she lacked a fallback pattern that wasn't becoming a suicide bomber. I think players liked bursting people as Valor, but I really don't agree that they were two dynamic sets. Thematics aside, Quinn and Valor were basically the same champion, one of which was a little faster, burstier, and riskier.

Remember when Quinn used to be called 'Quinn and Valor'? They stopped that because 'Quinn and Valor' was too long for some of the things they needed to use champion names on, but I bring it up because I always felt like Quinn and Valor were supposed to be a double champion. Maybe not a pure form swapper like Jayce and Nid, but someone who was usually one champ, but had moments of power as another champ. This caused both champs to feel useful and important, even though you spent most of your time as one. Otherwise you get something like Kindred; Wolf is barely important, there are still loads of people who think Kindred is just Lamb. As such, I find the Quinn changes to be disappointing; I wanted a double champ, not Quinn and her transportation bird.

And Repertoir is probably the best Rioter when it comes to communication, at least in the champion update team, so I don't want to get too upset at him, but I still don't like how it took several months to get an answer as to why we couldn't fight as Valor anymore. Please keep this in mind for future reworks: I, personally, get less angry if I have a clear reason as to why something is happening besides 'We like it.'

66 Comments

Phoenix Kotori 2/7/2016, 4:44:48 AM11 votes

I am sorry but valor was unhealthy and lacked in counterplay when ahead she could assassin someone with about as much counterplay as rengar, I played her I know full well of how she was capable of it, this lack of counterplay is why her ult was gated by one of the longest non-global ults in game which really reduced her reliability, furthering her into a fest or famine state because without it her ult would become too oppressive.

The rework completely addressed the unhealthy part and emphasized the movement and roaming ability of her ult. Which is what her ult tried to be about from the beginning but was overshadowed by the burst potential.

Final Quinn & Valor are a **team ** Valor fighting while Quinn did literally nothing until the end of the ult was the complete opposite of teamwork, which to me went against her identity a lot, short of making her a true form swapper I don't think they could have realistically made a good way to fight as valor because valor would need a different kit so that Quinn would do something in to keep their teamwork in place while fighting as valor.

Compared to the rework every thing is about the team work between Quinn & Valor.

Gehco2/7/2016, 9:10:27 AM10 votes

Playing as Valor was really fun though. It felt unique.

Now he pretty much drags his woman around the map like a taxi.

Valor Bot2/7/2016, 4:11:05 AM8 votes

@Repertoir - Just to continue on from our conversation in the last thread:

{quoted}Visually, not necessarily. If that question is slightly adjusted into "Did Quinn's new strategic identity necessitate the removal of Valor's burst capabilities?" then the answer is yes.

If this is the case, why not give Valor a new reason to fight rather than just pure burst, since that's problematic on a zero-cooldown ability?

Or perhaps the burst damage could be made conditional somehow so that the low cooldown of the ability is offset by the difficulty involved in pulling off the burst. I'm just spitballing ideas/picking at your brain a bit because a lot of us Quinn players, while happy that she's doing well, feel the sore loss of Valor's combat which was really important to her kit.

P.S. I made a thread about Quinn's rework last month, it's rather long but has a TL;DR at the bottom that sums up my thoughts: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/UH6F7HNR-riotrepertoir-and-others-about-the-quinn-valor-rework

ABlueQuaker2/7/2016, 9:37:32 AM8 votes

Yeah, I always considered Quinn to be 'Quinn (& Valor)' with Quinn being an abbreviated version for the sake of lack of space. Nowadays Quinn is Quinn, and Valor is all but completely non-existent.

Instead of committing to what Quinn & Valor should have been, they further removed Valor from Quinn's kit. They took SO MUCH from her kit just to allow Q to mark enemies with Harrier. Quinn needed bug fixes and a reward for Assassinating targets as Valor (literally reducing R cooldown if she got a kill would have been sufficient).

Penta Penguin2/7/2016, 6:10:42 AM6 votes

I really think her new ult is incredibly lazy, Skystrike makes no sense anymore as Q&V somehow rain arrows down from above while only gliding along the ground. They just snipped and pasted shit back together instead of making a full effort to ensure everything is still coherent.

Árchangel Avacyn2/7/2016, 9:30:03 AM4 votes

So I really want to address this issue with saying that 'there was no reason for Valor to stay, he was just fast melee Quinn' does that mean that we can expect Shyvanna's ult to go? After all it's just tankier AoE Shyvanna, right? The issue with that is the same issue Quinn has now, it ruins the fluidity of the champion's kit because their kit was made with that in mind. Quinn just simply doesn't feel as good to play, the bug fixes in many ways draw your attention away from what was lost to get them and it took a few patches for me to realise it myself but really Quinn relied a lot on the instant MS from Tag Team for a large number of things not least of which escaping.

I appreciate everything Repertoir did for us during the update and we were lucky to have him but I still can't forgive the lack of communication prior, I know several of us made attempts to show Riot how we felt about Quinn with quite thought out threads and I know he read them because he commented in some yet seemingly none of that was taken into account until after the announcement when it was too late to make drastic changes. I understand that she's seeing competitive play and that her pick rate is up but I don't really think that it's going to be a long term thing, somewhere down the line a meta-shift or a nerf is going to put an end to that because that level of mobility will need curbing eventually(just ask Kassadin) and all of that will go away but not even her old playerbase will still play her. I really genuinely feel like he traded her theme and feel for viability and to me that's just unacceptable and I can't bring myself to be content with that outcome, she feels shallow and uninteresting by comparison to her previous state and I really sincerely wish they had just tried making the Harrier and Vault fixes happen in any of the 3 year period since her damn release so we could actually see if her old kit was fundamentally flawed or if it was just the myriad of technical problems holding her back.

To address more of what Repertoir has said: You can say that you don't think she was good at something, you are entitled to believe that but honestly can you say that the current form of the champion is healthy? Is she not still useless when behind? Is she not still a lane bully with token assassin elements who's only utility is a blind? If these were your problems with the old Quinn when why did you address none of them? Who did this rework serve, Repertoir? The way I see it more people than ever are extremely annoyed and frustrated when playing against Quinn and with her pick rate up they're feeling that in more games and a significant amount of her core playerbase enjoys playing her a lot less, so who benefited from this update? Competitive play maybe? I guess that's true but that's not going to be the case forever, she has a niche role that is meta dependant so when she's no longer picked there then who's enjoying playing her?

Unfortunately we live in a world where this ult exists and isn't going away any time in the next year or two or maybe ever so if I may offer some actual feedback: You know me, I want more damage on Harrier and less on Q, the Q damage for the CC it provides is just plain stupid but when I say Harrier damage I mean scaling as in I feel that her Harriers should be scaling up to 75% of AD instead of 50% and if you could stop being misleading in the tooltip and including the damage from the auto in Harrier's damage so that it looks higher that'd be great too. Ult could seriously use some kind of CD because mana gating doesn't work past level 11 which is when her mobility becomes abusable and is usually the first time in the game pro players make use of it for things other then getting back to lane, so either her level 1 ult is terrible or... well actually paying a quarter mana for basically Strut does seem kind of bad(At level 6 ulting grants about 130 MS).

TL;DR: I'm upset.

HigeR2/7/2016, 6:02:30 AM4 votes

My only concern for Quinn is that her ult looks so SO derpy :S I mean, we know valor is NOT that big, plus she's literally hanging, she looks as if a predator bird was about to take her away... I think Riot could have done a better job at the animation, couldn't she just run with valor by her side or front? maybe give her increase sight now that you're at it, or maybe she could actually ride on top of valor since he's gigantic now and she can't really fight, make her look like freaking Nausicaa of the wind valley, not a kidnapped baby: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KidnappingBirdOfPrey

hello! not that hard? http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33400000/Nausicaa-nausicaa-of-the-valley-of-the-wind-33442105-1600-1200.jpg

Nagoh Shan2/7/2016, 5:55:27 AM3 votes

When I played the reworked Quinn I was floored that Valor was carrying Quinn, and not just there by himself. I really did expect it to be a swap out and still be tag team, with Quinn being the damage dealer and Valor the scout.

Árchangel Avacyn2/7/2016, 10:24:59 AM3 votes

Something that I forgot to touch on was a lot of the changes to how Harrier functioned, while a lot of them were great improvements there are a few that still bother me:

The crit scaling can go several ways, I don't like it but I do understand it. I just feel like it could scale with levels or CDR and literally be the same thing we have now and not feel like you're being severely punished for having to delay crit items because the enemy team requires a fast Maw/Sterak's/QSS because the damage deficit of not having that crit should be punishment in of itself.
The cooldown starting on consumption not procs. This is the big one for me, in lane you can't just proc marks whenever you like, you need to CS, the enemy can play around it if it lands on them, ect. What this means is that on top of Harrier doing about 30-40% less damage it also has around a 10 second CD on average in lane when before it was at most 6 seconds if you failed to proc it at all, this is something I struggle with in every game I expect Harrier procs that never materialise because the cooldown is so damn long because of this mechanic, what was wrong with the 7/10 CD it had before?
The mandatory CD after proc and ult. This allows you to maximise uptime on W without trying, that's cool I guess but it's also both unnecessary and frustrating, if someone wants to maximise uptime on W they can do that THEMSELVES without being forced to by the ability, all this really does is make it much harder to perform the role she's actually good at when fighting champions which is duelling. The CD after ult is only really an issue in that it means you are forced to open with either Q or E in order to have the speed to keep up with someone who tries to flee, this isn't too much of a problem but it does make using E as an open attractive which I believe is one of the biggest reasons for her huge average death rate.

Maybe these only bother me, who knows but feedback is feedback.

bloodmoth2/7/2016, 1:51:49 PM3 votes

meh, i like new quin, i couldnt stand old quinn, always considered her old ult as a big red feed button, and i always thought it was stupid that she just disappeared when you went into valor, then reappeared from the sky later. I mean, now it makes sense, she ults, valor carries her (i imagine she wears very light armor and is a slight girl to begin with) then when she leaves ult, valor flies her up high so she can fire a volley of bolts before landing. I mean, sure its weird that valor shapeshifts his size and all, but i still think jetpack valor is badass, and quinn looks frikkin cool doing it.

Though i can admit that valor does end up feeling like a bit of a taxi, and sky strike is rather underwhelming at the moment. I think putting some restrictions on Behind enemy lines/sky strike would improve them in some way

Sky strike should feel like quinn and valors ultimate maneuver, but because there is no cooldown it ends up needing to be balanced in a way that is rather unsatisfying. Quinn also seems a little mean making her poor bird haul her lazy ass all over the rift!

One way to show that quinn cares about valor more would be having an energy bar for valor that depletes when quinn flies around with valor and repleneshes when she walks around on foot (or stands still), this would also mean you can pool for ganks or blow it on silly things, adding some sort of optimization case and, more importantly, taking valors feelings into consideration!

"hey valor, you ready to take me behind enemy lines?" "Squaaaaark!" "lets do this then!"

As for Sky strike, i see this as the ultimate display of areal acrobatics and team work between quinn and valor, where he flies her up as high as he is able so she can rain down a volley of bolts in a devastating ambush! this ability should be their ultimate maneuver, and should have decent damage attached to it! In order to restrict it, you could make it perhaps cost 50% of valors energy pool (since he has to lift quinn higher than usual) and require manual activation (make it replace Q perhaps so that you can deactivate valor with R still?), in which case wasting valor too often on taxi services comes at the cost of her ultimate being less accessible, offering a meaningful tradeoff between damage and mobility! (this is also to somewhat curb her insane ganks too, which i may have been taking advantage of) Quinn must decide whether to walk half way to a gank so she can sky strike, or just boost it there and rely more on her own set of skills, basically she has to consider what favors she asks from valor As a bonus, perhaps valor can gain more energy when ever Quinn gets a kill (Birds gotta eat sometime!) this is simply so that she can continue to chase and clean up after team fights, as she always has.

just some ideas anyway.

Varnoc2/7/2016, 8:03:55 PM2 votes

Firstly, your quotes are borken in the OP (dunno why this happens, but it happens to me too when I use quotes to Format) :P

Second, when it comes to Quinn's (and Valor's) old ultimate, we need to accept that there's a really good chance it's not coming back. We can debate if this was, or wasn't, the right decision at the time, or even now, but in the end, that's all for nothing. This in mind, we, as Quinn and Valor players, need to aim our feedback at improving what we have now.

Building off what some others have discussed here a little, I'm going to mention Kindred for a second. While you play primarily as Lamb, a few things about the champion makes Wolf feel as much a part of Kindred as Lamb, these include:

Wolf's constant visual presence
Dialog between Wolf and Lamb reinforces the idea that they're partners.

While it seems like a short list, this is really all that's needed to achieve the "partnership" feeling those two gain (though some could consider it a shallow relationship in Kindred's case, it's a step in the right direction in the end).

So how do we achieve this with Quinn and Valor? Firstly, we need Valor to be a constant visual presence on the map. Valor should be following Quinn along as she moves, swooping from perch to perch as he does so. Possibly add an energy bar to Valor to limit the number of actions he can perform within a certain amount of time (meaning the champion's cooldowns would be fairly low as a general rule, but Valor can tire quickly making management of his energy important). You can achieve some cool things with Quinn's abilities by doing this:

Harrier (Passive) - Valor swooping down to mark the "vulnerable" target, allowing both sides to predict the marking of targets, and making Valor more visually impactful part of the champion without actually increasing power level would be an interesting way to make him a real part of the champion.
Aerial Assault (Q) - Can be based on Valor's current location when cast, lending importance to Valor's current position for both player and opponent.
Heightened Senses (W) - Could be a channeled effect of sorts, causing Valor to circle around Quinn, revealing terrain he passes over (he'd probably grant vision passively, being a part of the champion, the spell would just move him around). Canceling the channel will have him roost on the nearest wall, allowing the player to have some control over Valor's position in the map without playing as Valor directly. Possibly tie Valor's maximum energy, or energy regeneration rate, to this skill.
Vault (E) - While Valor doesn't directly participate in the functionality of the spell, he does mark Vault's target with Harrier, so Valor could, visually, swoop down and "strike" the target visually at the same moment Quinn does, further reinforcing their partnership through the extreme coordination required to pull such a thing off.
Behind Enemy Lines (R) - I don't think that Valor should be able to indefinitely carry Quinn, unless Demacian Eagles are deceptively powerful (which raises the question, among others, why did they go extinct?), it's physically not possible for Valor to carry Quinn for very long, if at all. The action should be the epitome of Quinn and Valor's coordination and partnership, everything must be perfectly done by both parties to make it work in a combat situation.

Under the limited duration system provided by Valor's energy limit, we can remove the "channel" time of the skill. Quinn can call to Valor for aid, run around a bit, and then jump into the air to be caught by Valor, and off they go. It shouldn't be true flight, but more a series of hops on Quinn's part, with Valor increasing the distance she's able to bound. By involving Quinn in this process, it becomes clear that Valor is not doing all the work, and thus not a tool, but a partner.
Activating Heightened Senses could allow Quinn and Valor to pass over walls while under this effect (accentuated by Quinn kicking off of said terrain to give Valor a hand), but costing a massive amount of Valor's energy to execute, so maintaining this effect for very long should be extremely taxing, allowing them to go over one wall easily, and two walls if timed extremely well. Ending the effect while over terrain could cause Quinn to perform a sort of sliding animation to the nearest side of the terrain.
There are more technical that could be explored here, however the last thing I want to touch on is Skystrike. The ability is really rather useless in most situations, and I personally use it more for wave-clear than anything else. If it's kept, I'd like to see it change a little, requiring Valor to have a certain amount of energy available, letting him pull Quinn to the height needed to perform Skystrike.

So the abilities are out of the way, providing Valor with a consistent presence within the game, what about voice lines? Quinn and Valor can't interact in the way that Wolf and Lamb do, as they have a language barrier of sorts. Instead, Valor needs to be able to give simple squawks of acknowledgement to Quinn's lines, and Quinn needs to react to Valor's actions as he moves around (Valor marks a target with harrier? "Stick to the plan Val..."). More interactions based on the actions of one character or the other reinforces the fascinating relationship the two share.

cHAncEman12922/8/2016, 3:28:42 PM1 votes

Honestly people are being pretty anal about the Quinn Changes. Functionally, every single element of Quinn's Kit reinforces her partnership with Valor. Valor marks, Valor blinds, Valor scouts, heck now Valor even carries (literally). Valor is a very clear a present force in all her abilities.

My one complaint is that the channeling for Beyond-Enemy-Lines is mad clunky. I kind of wish it was more like charging Vi's Q or Xerath's Q. Maybe even punish Quinn harder when the channel gets channeled as a result?