An the NA underperforms again....

Pippen The Short·Oct 24, 2016·1 votes·586 views

Hey Riot, hire me please! Lol

But seriously....

So once again, a lot of NA fans are dissatisfied with the "professional" play in their region. Which I put "professional" in quotes because I would wager if you placed an NA LCS team into the LCK, they probably wouldn't even qualify for the LCK. The LCK is King of the LCS, as has been proven, since the last 4 seasons (including this year) we will crown an LCK team Worlds Champ. Which partly, or mostly, I blame the NA teams for this lack of ability to adapt and overcome what appears to be a rather consistent problem. Which I think where this problem stems from is the lack of access to the NA LCS. So essentially to get into the NA LCS, which is a small room, you have to go through a small door. This door connects the LCS to the CS, which is an even smaller room with an even smaller and somewhat ambiguous door. This current system is so confined that it allows for current teams to essentially control a monopoly on the system simply by status of incumbency and makes it very difficult for new management/ideas to enter the arena of play. Which is why we have stale air in the room of the NA LCS. The best solution to this problem is a solution that drives competition, creates a transparent environment, and provides a clear path to the LCS which captivates the imagination and determination of the casual player. To make the case for this I point to Major League Baseball. The MLB has the highest required skill cap for professional play of any traditional and nontraditional sport, and I say this as a huge NBA fan. You can literally count the number of errors committed in a standard game of baseball on one hand. Baseball didn't get this way by focusing only on the professional level of play though. There are 244 minor league baseball teams, not including dozens of international operations and hundreds of "players on loan" to international teams. Which is fed by an even larger field of collegiate and amatuer pools, and the pyramid continues to get larger and larger all the way to the base of the casual/rec league player and enthusiast. There are people who live for the game despite never even swinging a bat. This same structure can be found in just about every major sport, from baseball to tennis. But, it all starts with a system that gives hope to the efforts of the average player. Because to make the NBA it starts with the hope to do well and make the team on an AAU team, then make the high school varsity team, then go play for a Div 1/2/3 or junior college team, hopefully get drafted but even if you don't get drafted you still have the opportunity to play in one of of a dozen Amateur leagues, compete as a walk-on to an NBA D-league team, or go play for an international team and hopefully catch the eye of an NBA recruiter. Contrast that to the current LCS system, which basically requires that you and a team be successful in finishing the marathon of a climb to the top of the Challenger team ranked boards, then somehow break into the fortress of the CS that is currently dominated by a system that requires teams to play it safe and do what everyone else does driven simply by the fear that failure to be successful could push a team out of the ranks of the CS. This system to its creators may appear to be a good system, but the problem is that it dashes the hopes of new teams. Because when teams run into a rough patch, they have to correct themselves back onto the right path and get going again, overcome their obstacles and continue the climb. However when the end destination seems like a task of improbable odds most teams lose heart, lose determination and simply abandon the pursuit. Despite this though, you still see dozens of new posts in the Team requirement board labeled "LFG serious team", there still exists this drive to go pro. Riot, in efforts to move the Esport side of League forward, really need to adapt their system.

33 Comments

UKP LKOct 24, 20162 votes

too long to read. Someone make it shorter plox

Pippen The ShortOct 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fated LK,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=yIK9uu4q,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-24T23:23:28.699+0000)

too long to read. Someone make it shorter plox

In bullet points.

NA LCS teams have shown an inability to adapt and overcome
NA LCS teams have an effective monopoly on the CS which inhibits new teams from rising in the ranks of the CS
CS play is limited to a very small number of teams
The lack of upward mobility in CS play and no amateur play is the cause of stale LCS performances from NA
Riot needs to change their CS format and add an amateur system to promote better competition and allow for new teams/ideas to filter their way to the top

Pill SlingerOct 24, 20161 votes

Says bullet points

Writes in numbers

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Says bullet points

Writes in numbers

So I understand that bullet points are usually denoted with a symbol of some kind, but at the time I wrote it I didn't stop to consider the technicality of the wording. But in the end I accomplished the same task. I used the numbers simply to denote an order that the points should follow because the points themselves are not mutually exclusive. Excuse me for using incorrect terminology.

Pill SlingerOct 25, 20162 votes

You're excused. Don't let it happen again.

I would also like to add something constructive. When you write a post that long, take the time to break it up into segments. Not too many people are going to take the time to read a longer post, let alone a long post that is just a wall of text.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You're excused. Don't let it happen again.

I would also like to add something constructive. When you write a post that long, take the time to break it up into segments. Not too many people are going to take the time to read a longer post, let alone a long post that is just a wall of text.

Yeah I read something on another site and it got me thinking and I basically just streamed my thought into the post. Which I do understand that people don't read long things, but at the same time I wanted to fully expound the thought. So you win some you lose some.

Pill SlingerOct 26, 20161 votes

And again, it's not so much the long part...as it is the wall of text part lol.

Sagan ForeverOct 25, 20162 votes

I think there problem is that they do not know how to prep well. Think they always do very well the first week when no one knows exactly what to expect, and then fail week 2. I feel instead of getting Korean players they need a Korean coach to teach them how to do better prep.

The OasisOct 25, 20163 votes

I'd be curious to see how much each team spends practicing as a 5-man team.

OleandervineOct 25, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sagan Forever,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=yIK9uu4q,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-25T02:25:40.595+0000)

I think there problem is that they do not know how to prep well. Think they always do very well the first week when no one knows exactly what to expect, and then fail week 2. I feel instead of getting Korean players they need a Korean coach to teach them how to do better prep.

At least one NA team HAD a Korean coach who used to coach for one of the big teams. That being said, NA just needs to practice and devote themselves to this game. NA is NOT the best at competitive League, and the moment the NA team accept this is the moment they can begin to improve.

LauchmelderOct 25, 20162 votes

Try to format your text m8, barely anyone will read it like that.

And it's not only an NA problem, EU has the same performance.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=yIK9uu4q,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-10-25T09:49:42.485+0000)

Try to format your text m8, barely anyone will read it like that.

And it's not only an NA problem, EU has the same performance.

Understood.

Yeah, I would say "but we're in NA" but I see that you're an EUW player. But yeah realistically because of the naturally existing centralization in Europe whatever system that gets developed in NA that is deemed effective would easily carry over to the EU LCS. So truthfully whereever you see NA you could substitute EU and the argument would be the same.

III BAKURYU III Oct 25, 20162 votes

                       ADDING MORE TEAMS

I do think adding more teams in the LCS will help greatly help with just the overall competition as well as having Spring split only for a regular games NO PLAYOFFS. The reason I say no Playoffs is while CLG did fine at Worlds this past year it was pretty obvious that their best games was in the past in the spring split and not the summer split. So why not just have SPRING SPLIT - NO PLAYOFFS SUMMER SPLIT - PLAYOFFS.
If Say CLG are 10-10 their record carries over to the Summer split. Any major patches that Riot decides to unleash make it 2-3 weeks BEFORE the Summer Split starts not the day of like they always seem do for some reason.

                       NO MORE RELEGATION GAMES

Make the teams that are in the LCS Legit. NO MORE RELEGATION GAMES. Riot is having trouble with sponsors and the only sponsors are on the say 3 teams for the past 6 years( TSM-C9-CLG) why? Because they're the only consistent teams in the LCS. No sponsors are going to back behind a team that is new and fresh to the LCS and why should they.
Teams that are say 3-17 bad like Echo Fox they still have fans but for how much longer ? They have already been in one relegation tournament do you think fans will stick with any teams that are consistently being relegated? I don't.

                         SPONSORS AND TEAMS FUTURE

Make every team that is the NA LCS stay for good and maybe sponsors will stick with these teams. Look at Dignitas(RIP) a fan favorite team with so much HISTORY with Imaqtpie/Kiwikid/Barons/Worlds now GONE.
Even if Dignitas was bad for 1-2 split they still could have gotten sponsors and I'm pretty sure every keyboard company sponsors teams but legit real companies like Monster energy drinsk/ McDonalds/ Burger King/ NBA.
If an energy drink came out called the Baron I'm pretty sure Dignitas would get them to sponsor them. Teens+Energy drinks+Barons+Dignitas+League=RIot Profit and 1 of their teams are getting a sponsor. If league stays popular for a little while longer or if NA ever wins Worlds say TSM with Bjergsen still on the roster who wants to bet that Bjergsen(BURGER KING) might sponsor him?

                            TEAM ROSTERS AND TRADES 
 Teams have over millions of players to fill out their rosters.  Take the Challenger scene and ask the solo Q players and CS players if they want to play in the LCS players such as (Trick 2g  Nightblue  Annie bot  Tyler 1  QT Pie etc etc) not every player will want to play in the LCS because they care more about streaming.  Move the Diamond players up to Challenger, Plats up to the Diamond elo etc etc EVERYONE MOVES UP.   This game shouldn't be about where you're at if Riot wants to really make the LCS and League an established company for the long run.

An example on why NA doesn't do good each year at Worlds could be because it's the same players with their same mentalities year after year after year by doing this it would give a fresh start on League.
Adding over 100 new players to be the next League stars will help motivate players to play well in Solo Q also. Every 2 years Bronze players move up to Silver NO QUESTIONS ASKED- Silver players move up to Gold NO QUESTIONS ASKED ETC ETC. Just by a random player seeing the words GOLD as they log into League or their league profile will most likely give them a purpose that in X amount of years they could be on the LCS STAGE.

                                Q and A ( I did this with my brother so I didn't make up questions for myself to answer)

" Well if X player is Bronze in X amount of years he will represent us"

If teams with the 3-4 coaches/supervisors/managers can't see a good solo Q player from a bad one then they shouldn't be where they are now and instead just be fired. Keeping people playing the game is important lets do say every 2 years everyone in each elo moves up an elo. Bronze players will be in Challenger in 12 years or just make it less like every year so 6 years they are in challenger but that doesn't me they will be pros at that point. Teams will get a chance to scout talent even if your are in Challenger and good or bad doesn't mean you will get picked up by a team.

" 6-12 years that's a long time"

Indeed however some players stop playing this game after 2-3 years because they just don't see a point to get out of Gold to Plat-Diamond-Master- to get to Challenger. The Climb is long enough anyways.

" What if you are Gold and you stop playing for X amount of time but return after those years purposely to get to the Challenger scene with out actually playing the game"

You need to play at least 500+ ranked games per year to be viable to move up PERIOD. Only playing 2-3 games for that year and thinking you will get moved up from Bronze to Silver is out of the question and will not happen.

Overall I think this will make League the most popular game of all time with players from (kids-Teens-Adults) wanting to play the game for a chance to go pro.

Just my thoughts and Thank you.

ManwalrusOct 25, 20162 votes

After the backwards-ass logic in the original post I didn't think it could get any worse, then I scrolled down...

III BAKURYU III Oct 25, 20161 votes

Original Post ? Sorry you feel that way towards my post.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=yIK9uu4q,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-10-25T13:21:43.838+0000)

Original Post ? Sorry you feel that way towards my post.

Pardon? I generally agree with what you said.

III BAKURYU III Oct 25, 20162 votes

Huh? I was commenting on what MANWALRUS said about my subject that I posted after reading yours.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=yIK9uu4q,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-25T15:23:22.060+0000)

Huh? I was commenting on what MANWALRUS said about my subject that I posted after reading yours.

Oh ok. Wasn't totally sure who you comment was directed at.

III BAKURYU III Oct 25, 20161 votes

Yeah I get confused with the topic boxes sometimes too; gets annoying sometimes.

Pippen The ShortOct 24, 20161 votes

For those who disagree I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

Well see this is why I say expand the LCS, expand the CS, and then add an amateur series. Doing this would provide the necessary structure for game houses to effectively develop a "farm" system for talent where they can afford the risk to try different things, while at the same time you could also open the grounds for new teams/communities/etc to compete.

ManwalrusOct 25, 20161 votes

A. Adding more teams doesn't fix the issue, it's not as if there's top NA talent being crowded out, we don't have enough of it so we just import people (that's why imports exist in the first place). Adding more teams won't magically make people better or conjure top tier players out of nowhere.

B. Why does everyone forget MSI happened? NA can't compete consistently with the top 3 teams from LCK, which clearly means that they wouldn't qualify for the LCK? What kind of backwards logic is that?

C. The challenger series is awful but having it be 20 sketchily run teams with no money to pay their players isn't better than having 6. It definitely needs fixing but just adding teams won't do anything.

D. The reason we lose to Korea is because our teams aren't disciplined enough compared to theirs and they have way stricter coaches. That insane practice schedule is what makes Korean challenger players into the best pros in the world, no matter how many of them decide to retire to China for money. They've had developed esports infrastructure for years and years and years before we even started.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

A. Adding more teams doesn't fix the issue, it's not as if there's top NA talent being crowded out, we don't have enough of it so we just import people. Adding more teams won't magically make people better
B. Why does everyone forget MSI happened? NA can't compete consistently with the top 3 teams from LCK, which clearly means that they wouldn't qualify for the LCK? What kind of backwards logic is that?

I would say you totally missed the point of the post with your two points.

So the reason for expanding the LCS to 12, but preferably 16 teams is to create room so you can mathematically determine who may actually get demoted without actually effecting the core talent of the LCS. It's also to create enough room for upward mobility to be more viable. It's not simply about having more teams, and it's not the number of teams that determine the success of the region; but rather the environment that fosters creativity and actually drives competition forward.

The thought about an NA LCS team not qualifying for the LCK is just posturing the point. It's a somewhat irrelevant point in the grand scheme of the article, but it is only there to make the reader consider how wide the gap may seem between the NA LCS and the LCK is.

ManwalrusOct 25, 20161 votes

You can't just snap your fingers and create an environment like the one you want. It would be easy for me to do what you're doing and say "I know how to win worlds, we just need to get the world's best players and then it'll be easy" it sounds really stupid and obvious. So what you're saying is you put the whole NA teams not qualifying for the LCK thing in there for literally no reason other than to mislead people and exaggerate the gap meme even further?

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You can't just snap your fingers and create an environment like the one you want. So what you're saying is you put the whole NA teams not qualifying for the LCK thing in there for literally no reason other than to mislead people and exaggerate the gap meme even further?

Well, it is also an opinion, some people like myself don't think that NA LCS teams would do well and would be hard pressed to qualify for the LCK. It's not about misleading anyone, it's writing in an effective way. Which I think it worked, otherwise you wouldn't be so hostile towards the thought.

And yes, with Riot's blessing I could "snap my finger" and alter the system.

III BAKURYU III Oct 25, 20162 votes

I think I understand what you're saying about expanding the teams. You're saying with more teams the "newer" teams will bring in a fresh outlook on League and players that don't just copy what Korea does. Teams and players that think this is their only chance in the LCS so instead of following Korea's "meta" they make their own. ? If that is the case I agree 100%. Yeah maybe 1-2 NA teams could make it to Playoffs in LCK maybe... but that's just out of respect for NA. However I remember LMQ when they were in the NA LCS and they dominated and they weren't a LCK team not that the LPL sucks or anything.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=yIK9uu4q,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2016-10-25T15:33:16.499+0000)

I think I understand what you're saying about expanding the teams. You're saying with more teams the "newer" teams will bring in a fresh outlook on League and players that don't just copy what Korea does. Teams and players that think this is their only chance in the LCS so instead of following Korea's "meta" they make their own. ? If that is the case I agree 100%. Yeah maybe 1-2 NA teams could make it to Playoffs in LCK maybe... but that's just out of respect for NA. However I remember LMQ when they were in the NA LCS and they dominated and they weren't a LCK team not that the LPL sucks or anything.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Create a system that rewards teams for being successful but doesn't totally annihilate teams for trying new things. Give teams the opportunity to be creative. If it doesn't work they filter to the bottom, but still have the opportunity to work their way back to the top.

III BAKURYU III Oct 25, 20162 votes

Yeah I agree. Look at Team Gravity; everyone thought they were trolls when Keane would play Cho and Urgot mid but it was smart at the time and the team got to the playoffs and faced TSM and while they did lose 3-1 it was still a competitive series. Even Bjergsen took Keane's ideas and played Cho and Urgot mid and won on those picks too.

Phoenix 1 played some cheesy team comps and new ideas and beat TSM; the only team to beat TSM during the Summer Split in a series. With a split or two and some reassurance to eliminate the relegation tournament teams like Gravity and P1 can make new "metas" for NA to finally win at Worlds instead of just coping Korea.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

C. The challenger series is awful but having it be 20 sketchily run teams with no money to pay their players isn't better than having 6. It definitely needs fixing but just adding teams won't do anything.

D. The reason we lose to Korea is because our teams aren't disciplined enough compared to theirs and they have way stricter coaches. That insane practice schedule is what makes Korean challenger players into the best pros in the world, not the amount of teams they have.

To point C, I would say that you have no knowledge of how sponsorship works in the major sports market to even make that point. Again, expanding the league is more than just "adding teams". It's about providing clearly structured and defined league. I would say half the reason NA teams don't take League as serious as they should is because of the lack of money in it, especially for teams not solidified in the LCS, much less the CS. However a well defined competitive system is part of the solution to establishing corporate sponsorships.

D is a somewhat a repetitive point, NA teams don't take it seriously because there is nothing driving them to do so, besides the LCK.

ManwalrusOct 25, 20161 votes

What I'm saying with C is that, once again, you can't just snap your fingers and make it happen. Of course it would be great if we had a bunch more well run challenger and LCS teams with great players, but you'd have to be pretty naive to think that can happen overnight. That would require tons more time, money, commitment and people that are good enough to go pro and win worlds that actually want to do it. As for the LCK qualification thing, NA's top teams can beat Korea's basement tier teams, it's like saying No European team took a game off an NA team at MSI or at worlds this year, so an EU team couldn't qualify for the NALCS.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What I'm saying with C is that, once again, you can't just snap your fingers and make it happen. Of course it would be great if we had a bunch more well run challenger and LCS teams with great players, but you'd have to be pretty naive to think that can happen overnight. That would require tons more time, money, commitment and people that are good enough to go pro and win worlds that actually want to do it. As for the LCK qualification thing, NA's top teams can beat Korea's basement tier teams, it's like saying No European team took a game off an NA team at MSI or at worlds this year, so an EU team couldn't qualify for the NALCS.

E-League was developed in less than 8 months, and gathered corporate sponsors in 6 months, expanded the CS:GO pro field to 24 teams, came with a TV package deal, and has done wonders for the pro scene of CS:GO. Which relative to the business world, less than 6 months is virtually overnight.

If Riot started two weeks from now, they could majorly overhaul their LCS/CS structure and be ready for its presentation by S8.

I also think you're reading too much into the LCK thing, it's simply an opinion. Let's say you take the top 2 NA and top 2 EU teams, sure I would find it believable that at least one of these teams could qualify for the LCK, but I also expect that team to get dogged all season and not even come close to qualifying for world's. The gap between the top their LCK and the top tier talent elsewhere is "yuge" to quote Donald Trump. Which I know people point to MSI, but LCK only gets 1 team, and has made it to the finals both times. Think about this, every major international event the Koreans attended since Worlds 2012 has been won by a Korean team with the one exception being a Chinese team won 2015 MSI, and as much as we would like to convince ourselves otherwise it really hasn't even been close.This year being kind of an exception, Immortals did really well at MSI, which gave us hope, but then failed to qualify for worlds. To me, as a personal opinion, the gap is more like a chasm. Consistency, professionalism, and being constantly relevant to the title defines the LCK. You cannot say the same about any other region, except maybe the LPL because of EDG and Royal Star.

ManwalrusOct 25, 20161 votes

The fact of the matter is doing that wouldn't get us any closer to beating the Koreans. NA and China are perfect examples of why pouring money into a scene and expecting everything to work out doesn't work. Korea has one of the lowest amounts of money out of all the major regions put into league and they still win every time. Suggesting that pouring more money into expanding the LCS before we figure out how to be consistent internationally will help us win worlds is a bit of a strange idea.

Pippen The ShortOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The fact of the matter is doing that wouldn't get us any closer to beating the Koreans. NA and China are perfect examples of why pouring money into a scene and expecting everything to work out doesn't work. Korea has one of the lowest amounts of money out of all the major regions put into league and they still win every time. Suggesting that pouring more money into expanding the LCS before we figure out how to be consistent internationally will help us win worlds is a bit of a strange idea.

I'm not saying money is the answer, I'm saying creating a system that encourages competitions and fosters upward mobility to successful teams is the solution, along with providing the structure for a farm system. Which I believe said system could also generate money which could provide for a more stable atmosphere.