Quick thoughts - msf vs tsm

woodvsmurph·Oct 8, 2017·2 votes·1,057 views

We saw it with imt vs fnc, and we see it again here - na teams not respecting 4 man dive potential or early ganks bot. They need to improve their early play so they don't fall so far behind. Dying once to such a play? Understandable - letting it happen on repeat several times? Not ok.

3v5 base defense - amazing. Hauntzer plus Bjerg just delete POE from fight immediately. Hauntzer created great space for his teammates even when 2v4 and saved the tower.

Baron force - the first one when msf was doing infernal drag was great - it's what I like to look for in solo queue when my team is behind and it exploited msf's strength and recognized where they wanted to go and came up with the perfect trade/reply/counter-play. The next one, not so much. If tsm immediately turns, blows flashes as needed, and secures kill advantages vs msf, sure it's ok. But by finishing baron and eating damage vs a team that's still probably stronger than you at that time, you lose 2 people, lose ga on hauntzer, and get to do nothing with baron. Doubly bad because minions are pushing to your inner and ihib towers - giving msf an easy 5v3 force to break the base.

Teamfights - how do you lose so hard when hauntzer can 1v2 peel a strong lb and shen - even forcing out shen ult? That's essentially a 4v3 that tsm repeatedly loses. That aside - notice how in base and when hauntzer is 1v3 jumped bot (and nearly kills lb - forcing out shen ult again) how much work a renekton can do. I know most teams don't blow flash aggressively, but in this game, it would have been perfect. Hauntzer should flash stuns lb, and combo's his damage with Bjerg. This either kills or removes lb from fight right away. It also probably gets msf to blow much of their cc and burst onto Hauntzer who would be alone in enemy team - meaning his teammates are essentially full hp with their sums available and having a 5v4 to start the teamfight. Even if hauntzer dies, it's worth. Why? He's removed all the enemy's damage except their adc. He probably has ga to revive anyways. If he's getting 4 man focused hard enough to die/pop ga, he's blown most of the enemy's burst and cc which is always huge. He's grouped the enemy together - setting up a nice 3-4 man sej ult and giving Doublelift the perfect opening to free fire without danger into the clustered enemy team. Is this Hauntzer's fault he didn't do this? No - it's just pro players thinking of flash as a defensive only tool on everyone except gragas, mega gnar, and shen pretty much. There's times when flashing agro like that would be bad, but if it can give your team a decisive advantage in the teamfight that you otherwise wouldn't have, then it's worth. Especially since it's not like shen is going to punish him by killing him 1v1 in side lane for the next 5 min because renekton's flash is on cd. Hopefully in future situations like this match, tsm and other na teams will be more aware of these chances and make the aggressive plays when it counts BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE (3v5 in base was too late for it to matter) and pick up more wins.

15 Comments

lolenforcerOct 8, 20173 votes

hello, this thread has been paused because we are recalculating Misfits strategy Leblanc

woodvsmurphOct 8, 20171 votes

First off, upvotes for the wording of your post - I love it.

Secondly though - there really isn't a good response for what I suggest. Either you blow your cc and damage on Hauntzer's renekton, or you ignore him and he deletes leblanc. Sure you can learn from that happening one time and position more safely, but that means you also miss out on poking out tsm carries with leblanc - leaving them completely healthy for start of fight. And then renekton can just flash on xayah and bait out her flash or ult. And he can turn on the leblanc because she will dive in to punish him - letting him stun her anyways. But I do look forward to your response post.

xJLx MCHammerOct 8, 20172 votes

TSM was trying to play "too". I get that they had the late game comp but the idea is to try and stay relevant throughout the game until the late game kick in. They didn't do that. Outside of that that silly surprise Baron steal, they didn't do anything note worthy. Worse, they put too much faith on a Kog Mog. No matter what, you have to assume a LB, Sej can reach him. You can't do the same with to a Xayah

Ultimately, TSM got a bit lucky with a few nice call and plays from Bjerg but they need to start focusing on actually winning early game.

Edit: Also, they just werent playing smart late game. They use farsignt to see if they are doing elder, they noticed they aren't, so they push down mid? Idiotic

woodvsmurphOct 8, 20171 votes

Too true - and frustrating because a few more gutsy mid-game plays and they could have stalled it out, caught up completely in terms of 5v5 power, and quite possibly won. Instead, they waited until it was too late to make those gutsy plays, and lost pathetically because of it.

FableBlazeOct 9, 20171 votes

I honestly think that TSM lost also on a macro level. Look at how many times TSM was in a lose-lose position on the map. For example there were multiple times when TSM had minions pouring into their base while Misfits was threatening Baron. And it felt like TSM had no idea about what to do in these situations. They just kinda lingered around Misfits while losing the map.

And that is a problem. Misfits might not be able to take advantage of it for a second time, but stronger teams undoubtedly will.

EDIT: Also, what the hell was TSM's bottom lane thinking? Did they go in thinking that they are up against some random soloq scrubs? They were laning way too greedily. And nothing changed even after they got punished for it...

xJLx MCHammerOct 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I honestly think that TSM lost also on a macro level. Look at how many times TSM was in a lose-lose position on the map. For example there were multiple times when TSM had minions pouring into their base while Misfits was threatening Baron. And it felt like TSM had no idea about what to do in these situations. They just kinda lingered around Misfits while losing the map.

And that is a problem. Misfits might not be able to take advantage of it for a second time, but stronger teams undoubtedly will.

EDIT: Also, what the hell was TSM's bottom lane thinking? Did they go in thinking that they are up against some random soloq scrubs? They were laning way too greedily. And nothing changed even after they got punished for it...

Yeah, TSM did not play the macro level at all. You can tell that the TSM laners are better in lane. They were winning or somewhat doing good in each lane. On the macro level, they just got outplayed.

Also, I don't think Biofrost was playing aggressive, he gave the bot lane enough respect. I think Doublelift was trying too hard to act as if he can win a kog vs Xayah match up that early.

So yeah, i'd say the biggest contributing factors were Doublelift and Sven just not being good. Then whomever was shotcalling (likely DL and Bjerg) didn't know what to do,

MysterQOct 10, 20171 votes

I think everyone is playing the defensive style they said they wanted. Except DL thought MSF weren't very good and abandoned it.

sky blowerOct 9, 20171 votes

I still think it is the misplay from DL and Sven that caused them the game. Sven was caught out a lot before so he seems to be a bit too cautious in these days. Yesterday he often fleshed in the jungle when it seems not very necessary, and today he looked too nervous to punish MSF's mistakes. As for Haunzter, he performed great in that game and he did flesh stunned LB as you mentioned in your thread. Thought the attempt was not very successful as LB just W'ed away. POE is just too good to be caught. Also, DL performed really bad and didn't respect LB as much as he should. In that last teamfight DL was hit by 3 chains from LB and died with his flesh up. Still, I think they are just underperforming in this game and I still strongly believes in TSM.

MysterQOct 9, 20171 votes

Honestly Haunzter should join another team.

If he stays in TSM, he gets free NA win every year. That is great. But if he wants to be the carry he talks about being, he should go to another team.

sky blowerOct 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Honestly Haunzter should join another team.

If he stays in TSM, he gets free NA win every year. That is great. But if he wants to be the carry he talks about being, he should go to another team.

So what team do you think he should be going? C9? IMT? or any other teams? I haven't heard of any teams which centered around their top laner as carry except Longzhu. But Longzhu has already got Khan

MysterQOct 9, 20171 votes

C9 has been looking for a toplaner for forever. But I mean that is kind of a horizontal trade, and in the region of NA a negative (but again who cares about winning NA). If he wants to prove he is a world tier toplaner, he should go to China or Korea. It would be tough with the language/culture, and heck I don't see any real NA imports there. But it would be the one place he could actual fight to improve, maybe make a name for himself.

Or he can stay here and just win NA titles.

woodvsmurphOct 10, 20171 votes

Hauntzer is good, but he also makes a number of mistakes and is no better than Doublelift or Bjerg or Biofrost in that matter. Bjerg - considering all his additional responsibilities and pressures - probably performs the best. When hauntzer isn't given a winning matchup, he looks about average vs the best of the lcs and internationally. But tsm has put high priority on getting him good matchups lately from what I have seen - which is why he has looked so strong. Basically - I wouldn't say he stands out above the best na toplaners - meaning swapping teams would make him end up on a team like Dig or worse and probably not make it to worlds or win na.

sky blowerOct 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Hauntzer is good, but he also makes a number of mistakes and is no better than Doublelift or Bjerg or Biofrost in that matter. Bjerg - considering all his additional responsibilities and pressures - probably performs the best. When hauntzer isn't given a winning matchup, he looks about average vs the best of the lcs and internationally. But tsm has put high priority on getting him good matchups lately from what I have seen - which is why he has looked so strong. Basically - I wouldn't say he stands out above the best na toplaners - meaning swapping teams would make him end up on a team like Dig or worse and probably not make it to worlds or win na.

At least Hauntzer is the most consistent member beside Bjerg. He will never cause his team the game and very rarely misposition.

Kal Vas FlamOct 9, 20171 votes

If you thought that was bad, wait till MSF dumpsters them next weekend.

MysterQOct 9, 20171 votes

Idk man, if TSM just fixes the draft it could go better for them.

I was upset when they did not ban Syndra, it was such an obvious pick. Bjerg ALWAYS goes Syndra it is so annoying. But thankfully they won the teamfight. But seriously, just ban Syndra because Bjerg will ALWAYS pick it.

The bans will be interesting. Idk what MSF normally runs, but I imagine TSM is going to have to do some changing. It helps that MSF mostly played meta.