10 thoughts: Believe in NA

Riot·Oct 10, 2017·2 votes·24,353 views

10 THOUGHTS

GOING INTO GROUP STAGE WEEK 2

If you missed the first week of Group Stage, here is one thought on your current living arrangement: it's under a rock. We saw doom and gloom and cause for balloons in an action packed Week 1 -- here are some takeaways!

Believe in NAAll three NA LCS teams are 2-1 right now. Immortals and Cloud9 can more or less punch their ticket through with wins over the GIGABYTE Marines and ahq respectively, whereas TSM is stuck in a three-way tie with Team WE and Misfits. However, despite having a tougher road, TSM proved they are undisputably the best NA team this year -- they should be able to handle the challenge. The question, then, is why should anyone believe this time will be different? Why are you sweating? What’s going to prevent another NA Week 2 fiasco? Well, this time, NA is winning with standard play, CLG-branded faith is at home, and… I mean, what are the odds they blow it again? There’s a famous saying in North America that should serve as your guiding light this week: “This is the year!”

Believe in South KoreaThere’s a famous saying in Korea that should serve as your guiding light this week: “SK telecom T1 wins the World Championship!”
In all seriousness, SKT and SSG actually struggled more than expected over the opening weekend. Both could be 1-2 (SSG actually dropped a game). But that’s just it -- they could. That they’re not is part of the reason the LCK has been so dominant -- their teams excel at the bend-but-don’t-break defensive style. It doesn’t matter that they almost lost. It matters that they didn’t.

ClearLove, Full Hearts, Can LoseThe bright side is Clearlove7 won’t be eliminated from the Quarterfinals again. The down side is Clearlove7 won’t be eliminated from the Quarterfinals again. :thinkingguymeme: EDG needs a lot of help to realistically stand a chance of escaping their group. They also need to start winning. That said, they had a 10k gold lead on SKT and also could have beaten ahq. Of the four 0-3 teams, I think they have the best shot at pulling off a miracle run. Do it for Dillon Wuhan.

EU’s hope is the power of evilPeople say love conquers evil, so Misfits are really lucky Clearlove7 and Edward Gaming aren’t in this group. Thanks to that, evil prevails. Mwahaha. Misfits could go 3-0 in Week 2 and you’d probably still get people saying, “DAE EU is ded? Lol” Misfits have looked really good thus far, though -- especially their Baron posturing. Let’s see what other tricks these rabbits can pull out of their hat.

The LMS’ steady declineThe last non-Korean region to win Worlds was the Taipei Assassins in 2012. It remains one of the great upset runs in history. Ever since then, the region has seen a steady decline in performance. In 2015, the LMS had two Quarterfinalists. In 2016, they had none. And now the Flash Wolves and ahq went a combined 1-5 in the first week after seeing their 3rd seed (Hong Kong Attitude) get bounced from the Play-In. It seems the flash of light at the end of the tunnel is shaped like a wolf.

Power ranking of items1. Ardent censer
2. LED fan signs
3. Froskurinn’s attire
4. Nashor’s Tooth on Orianna I guess?
5. LPL caster desk props: model car, headset milk

Uzi me now, Uzi me not:Twitchlaugh: Uzi famously made back-to-back Worlds Finals in 2013 and 2014 thanks to the “Protect the ADC” style being viable and him being the best ADC in the world for that job. And while the Worlds 2017 meta doesn’t exactly allow for 1v5s, the overwhelming focus is still on the ADC. Team fights frequently come down to which team has the better ADC. And years from now, when the robots have taken over, they’ll still be unable to replicate Uzi’s mechanics.

More teams should emulate the GIGABYTE Marines’ philosophyThe super leash that Levi received from his team in order to hit a five minute Level 6 on Nocturne was awesome. It was a super risky play because it immediately set his laners behind in tempo. The onus was then on him to immediately use the early Level 6 spike to secure a kill. Which he did. And if you’re a world class player, why wouldn’t you want that kind of responsibility? Teams follow the “meta” because it has been proven to work. But just because one team can win with that meta doesn’t mean you can. GAM’s innovations backfire in a big way when they don’t work, but that’s okay. An embarrassing 20 minute loss counts exactly as much as a 55 minute “close” loss.

Watching Rekkles is heartbreakingI don’t have any jokes to make this one easier. Fnatic has issues on and off the Rift at the moment, and this moment seems to be the culmination of a tough year for their captain. Them going 0-3 isn’t the most unexpected result, but their losses were each so uniquely devastating -- the Marines' super leash, the Rekkles flash forward, and then Khan’s cane. I don’t expect them to recover, but I do hope they find it in them to rally for a good showing in Week 2.

How might the meta evolve?Everyone I’ve talked to so far has said that we will not move away from the Ardent Censer meta. What might happen, though, is that responsibility will shift to a different lane. We already saw G2 try it with Ivern jungle, and the likes of Karma and Lulu could still flex to a solo lane. One way to punish passivity is to increase your engage tools -- especially from the support position. I think you might see some teams try the Blitzcranks and Threshes of the world again. We’re already seeing changes in top lane which take advantage of weaker tank top laners -- Trundle and Nasus both saw play. Maybe someone will whip out a Master Yi or so to try and take advantage of the hyper carry meta. What would you do to upset the meta?

MATCH PREVIEW

FRIDAY, OCTOBER 13, APPROXIMATELY MIDNIGHT

Misfits Gaming

EU LCS

TSM

NA LCS

Last year, TSM was eliminated from Groups despite going 1-1 against Samsung Galaxy (who ended 5-1) because they went 0-2 against RNG and lost the tiebreaker. This year, the situation is eerily similar. Only it’s the Misfits who may now hold that edge over them. This may be the most important game of TSM’s season, as it would at least guarantee they won’t be eliminated via tiebreaker. If TSM manages to beat WE earlier in the day, then a win over MSF would guarantee they advance. On the flipside, the tiebreaker argument is just as advantageous for MSF. MSF enjoyed consistent performances across the board from their players, and they were proactive in their map movements. The same can’t be said for TSM, who (as they often do at international events) played far too reactively. The key mismatches were in jungle and ADC as Maxlore and Hans Sama outplayed Svenskeren and Doublelift. Look for an even heavier focus on the bot lane in the rematch. NA vs. EU. The stakes are as high as ever.

Kien Lam is a content producer for Lolesports. You can find more ~~awful~~ great jokes and commentary on his Twitter @meanmisterkien.

212 Comments

C9 MagnusOct 10, 201713 votes

I disagree with why they think NA is strong, and more importantly what they said about TSM. TSM has the easiest group and they still are struggling, while C9 and IMT have the two hardest groups and are thriving. EDG and AHQ are not weak teams yet C9 was able to make them look like wild card teams. Likewise Fnatic is amazing yet IMT made a quick comeback after punishing a mistake by one person (much like a Korean team would do). As goes Korea, they could have two 1-2 teams and in my opinion they will have that next year if the current trends continue to happen. Korea is no longer a guarantee anymore, and if C9 and/or IMT cleaned up their play we could very well see an NA win over the "most dominant" region. This could just be NA bias, but NA is no longer a region that can just be ignored or counted out of finals. There is a very real possibility that an NA team makes it to finals, or even wins, this year. Feel free to disagree or agree, I'm interested in hearing responses.

SõõOct 10, 201710 votes

That's exactly why TSM needs to step up their game. If they watched those IMT vs LZ game and how NA has overall been performing, they should see that they ARE good enough to make it out first in their group. They're not playing aggressive enough. They are playing like they're always at a disadvantage or scared. They beat IMT and C9 over the course of this split, and it's time they translate that to international success.

C9 MagnusOct 10, 20174 votes

I agree completely.

VolksOct 10, 20175 votes

Yeah I agree with you, I think Svenskeren has to play with more confidence..DISCIPLINED but with confidence, The MSF game he never made an amazing play with sej he had many opportunity's,its better for Doublelift to get a wake up call now then later. As for IMT I think their odds are good, maybe they can get a game off of LGZ this time. C9 I think can do it as well. Im genuinely hopeful with NA this year to get at least 1 team to semis.

CuckledgeFarmsOct 10, 201716 votes

I think Svenskeren is just not very good

jpnarutolife21Oct 11, 20173 votes

TSM Reignover?

woodvsmurphOct 10, 20172 votes

Should yes. Will? Maybe. Does tsm need to get an early game plan together and draft so that they aren't in danger of having 3 losing lanes and a losing jungle matchup? Yes. Will that be enough? I don't know. Part of tsm's issue might be their playstyles and comps don't match up well vs their opponents. It's like tampa bay when they beat the raiders to win the superbowl. The buc's defense just denied pretty much every offense and scored nearly as many points as the opposing offense did. So their mediocre/average offense just had to not royally screw up, put up a few points, and they'd win the game. Not saying tsm is all offense or defense - just that their style might be countered by their opponents' styles and/or their opponents may be more skilled at playing against the comps and styles tsm tends to use. Not that this is an excuse enough for tsm to lose out in group stage even if it is true.

C9 MagnusOct 11, 20172 votes

I agree, TSM isn't by any means a weak team but they just play a style that is easily countered in this meta. I believe that if TSM were to fix a few things they could easily be a top tier contender for finals, but they have shown in the past that when it comes to international events they choke instead of improve, so I rate them as the weakest NA team at worlds. They can probably still make it out of groups, but there is a world where they don't.

FlanmanOct 11, 20175 votes

What has c9 done? When have they won NA last. Making it to Quarterfinals in 2016 doesn’t make them a dominant NA team they are in the same boat as TSM internationally.

ReaxetionOct 11, 20173 votes

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks so. TSM has a rich history of choking at worlds and under preforming at international events. Even if they go in as heavy favorites to win the whole thing, they stop playing the way they did locally. They keep saying in interviews that this whole split was to prepare them for worlds.. They need to start playing like they did all season, instead of whatever "TSM International" style is. TSM @ Home = TSM TSM TSM. TSM @ International = TeamSucksMan.

Likewise, C9 has a history of over preforming at worlds. Even when they come in as a low seed, they tend to do quite well in groups, almost always advancing. If I had to put my faith in one of the two, it would be C9.

IMT on the other hand.. What a ride watching that team has been. From inception to now they have changed a lot. I have a some reservations, but man am I hyped. I say they have a better chance to get out of groups than C9 just based on the strength of the other 3 teams. (2 really.. LZ is the #1 team at the moment). But, I am unsure how they will do in the knockout stage.

TL;DR - GO NA!

woodvsmurphOct 11, 20173 votes

I kinda have a bad feeling that longzhu is going to get the rox tigers experience. Run into skt before finals, get their dreams crushed, and... I hope not, but I just have that feeling partly because their performance week 1 didn't look overly amazing. Sure they won, but it wasn't like the other teams never stood a chance unless said team was obviously performing horribly.

WeCantStopOct 11, 20175 votes

For those of you being over optimistic, let's do the math. Let's say C9 so strong, but was completely crashed by SKT; let's say TSM is improving, and beat WE, but was defeated by MSF, and WE finished the game against MSF in 26 mins. Let'a just optimistically assume that TSM=WE. Where would you put SKT, RNG and LZ?? And people telling me that NA has chance to get into finals? Excuse me, are you dreaming? NA deinditely is improving, but they will NOT get into finals. If there was 0.1% chance, that would be TSM, not C9. And that would be because of bjergsen.

C9 MagnusOct 11, 20173 votes

I think that you're overrating Bjergsen and underrating how NA teams are performing. I notice how you purposefully left out IMT, who went toe to toe with the team that I predict to be the most likely to win the tournament (LZ), and still look like they could beat LZ this week. As goes C9 they were able to beat an EDG that was one team fight away from crushing SKT, and that tells me that C9 are still competitive. To say that C9 will not make it to finals just because they looked bad in a single game is absurd. TSM is a whole different story. TSM was gifted the easiest group, the only one without a Korean team, and they still look like they're under-preforming. They were losing in their game against FW all game until a couple of late game team fights, and then they actually lost to a European team. The only game in which TSM looked dominant was their game against WE, the weakest Chinese team at the tournament. You did ask the question, "Where would you put SKT, RNG and LZ," and to answer it I would place all three of them at the very top in this order: LZ 1st, SKT 2nd, and RNG 3rd. I've mentioned this on previous comments on different articles that I believe that NA isn't going to win worlds, it's just their best chance to win it since season 1. I feel confident enough to say that an NA team is almost guaranteed to make it to Semifinals. If NA advances from Semis I would be amazed and extremely happy, but I have my doubts about them making it any further than that. But doubts do not mean that it is impossible, and you cannot just say "NA is bad" and not elaborate on it like other worlds. It is clear that NA has shown up as real contenders for this tournament. I think that this year will be like last year's MSI where some will be like me and overestimate NA by saying we win the tournament, while others will underestimate and say that NA is a wildcard region, just to have an NA team make to the finals and lose proving both sides wrong. I respect your opinion, and statistically speaking you're not entirely wrong to say that NA is unlikely to make it to the finals, but I disagree with your whole "There's a 0.1% chance NA makes it to finals and if they do it's because of Bjergsen" line of thought. There is little that can actually support that statement, and if I had to put a percentage behind NA as a region winning worlds I would say something more along the lines of 30%, unlikely but still possible under the right conditions.

BaconieOct 11, 20172 votes

he a typical tsm/bjergsen fan boy... sadly im used to it now

FlanmanOct 11, 20172 votes

First of all TSM/Fw were back and forth all game. 2nd TSM handled WE pretty easily. The only game they truely struggled was Misfits and they can easily fix the mistakes made.

woodvsmurphOct 11, 20174 votes

Sorry, but if na is going to make it out of groups and past the quarter finals, it's not going to be tsm or it's going to be all 3 na teams somehow. Why? TSM has weakest group - so their quarterfinal opponents (if they get there) will be some of the stronger ones regardless of if tsm gets 1st or 2nd seed from group. Meanwhile imt and c9 have played against some of the hardest teams IN group stage, so their quarter finals opponents will come from OTHER WEAKER groups. Also, pretty sure imt played close with longzhu and some improvement in positioning could actually see them WIN. Can't say the same for tsm - they would need a LOT more work to get there. Is na making finals? I'd be very very shocked. Can they make semi-finals? Reasonable chance.

FlanmanOct 11, 20173 votes

If TSM were 3-0 you would all over them saying how great they are.

C9 MagnusOct 11, 20177 votes

Yes, but they aren't 3-0 and they don't have a Korean team in their group. Out of all the NA teams they are the only one to lose to a non-Korean team, and it was to a European team at that.

korean dogOct 10, 20177 votes

I completely disagree. Korea is still light years ahead of everyone else. Its not close really. Every year western fans want to say the gap is closing but in the end Korea still proves them wrong. NA has gotten stronger just from the eye test but to say they will become the most dominant region is no offense wishful thinking by you. If anyone is going to take over Korea its going to be China. They have the biggest player base and talent base region in the world and have just as much infrastructure and money invested into their game as NA if not more. There is just no evidence for you to assume that Korea is going to be taken over by NA.

C9 MagnusOct 11, 20172 votes

I respect your opinion as it is currently the status quo. But why not have wishful thinking? C9 beat EDG, a team that was legitimately one team fight away from winning against SKT, and they made it look easy. Sure C9 was dismantled by SKT in their game against each other, but that is to be expected when you consider that C9 had just come off an undefeated run through play-ins where they highlighted their weaknesses and became arrogant. I think that with the staff that C9 has, they could easily overcome that one loss and compete against SKT. And then you look at IMT who almost won against Longzhu. Their game against LZ was close enough to say that given another chance IMT might take a game off of the top seeded Korean team. If that doesn't speak for how over hyped Korea is currently, and how NA is not actually light years behind Korea, than I don't know what will. Perhaps an NA team winning worlds? That's true wishful thinking. You're welcome to disagree if you like, there's nothing I can do but state my opinion to try and change your mind.[slayer-jinx-wink]

korean dogOct 11, 20172 votes

Everything you said are all just hypothetical to be honest. About C9 being arrogant, IMT have another chance etc etc. these are all hypothetical and most likely a little bit of of influence by bias. IMT has an early game lead yes but Fnatic also has an early game lead and was extremely close to winning against IMT and Fnatic got smashed in 20 min by Longzhu. I look at empirical facts and the fact is Korea has been untouchable in he last few years and NA has been probably one of the worst performing region at worlds. Korea is not overhyped lol they are just that good and their resume shows for it. I think you are way overrating NA just from a game or 2. The fact that this is the first time NA has looked decent in an international tournament makes you think they will be better than Korea.? And we only have maybe 1 or 2 matches of sample size between NA and KR this words. You know Korean teams have all lost 1 or 2 games in the first week of past worlds including SKT and in the end still smashed every region right? At this point looking just at factual evidence NA isn't close to Korea. At this point there isn't even an evidence to support if NA will ever surpass Korea. Based on a couple of BO1s? Korea has more talent and better overall infrastructure to NA its really not disputable. Like I said right now in terms of of potential I think China is the most likely to topple Korea based on the player base and how big league is over there. Jatt even said he's surprised China hasn't at least matched with Korea with their resources.

C9 MagnusOct 11, 20171 votes

I guess if you squinted hard at it, you could say that last year's results some how affect this year, but realistically that's not even slightly true and is much more speculative than anything that I've stated here. That is if we're talking nothing but relevant numbers here. But obviously that isn't the case because in your own argument you used speculation. Largely irrelevant information all round, including from me, but the difference is I never claimed not to have bias or speculation and you tried to use "That's just hypothetical" as an argument to discredit my own opinion. Of course it's hypothetical and speculation influenced by my own bias towards a region! That's the whole point of guessing who will win! That's why pick-ems exist! It's not to provide who had the best non-empirical analysis of worlds, it's to see who's bias is more based in reality. Sure this isn't pick-ems, but the whole point of arguing is to entertain the urge to root for your favorite teams. And those out there saying "If you look at the data of x,y,z games than you can clearly see that SKT etc. win in yada yada circumstances" but realistically that is nothing more than an educated guess on how a team will preform. Remember that every team at worlds is formed by people, and people will always make mistakes. In theory and in practice any team can win worlds, except for those already mathematically eliminated. If you want 0 bias, 0 speculation, 0 hypothetical, and only what can be 100% proven fact, all you're going to find are the amount of wins and losses each team has and player scores. Other than that you will find absolutely nothing in regards to what makes each teams better, not without including bias anyways.

korean dogOct 11, 20172 votes

Sure C9 was dismantled by SKT in their game against each other, but that is to be expected when you consider that C9 had just come off an undefeated run through play-ins where they highlighted their weaknesses and became arrogant. I think that with the staff that C9 has, they could easily overcome that one loss and compete against SKT. And then you look at IMT who almost won against Longzhu. Their game against LZ was close enough to say that given another chance IMT might take a game off of the top seeded Korean team.

Is that not all hypothetical???? And even in your hypothetical argument there are holes. IMT won early game against Longzhu, yes but Fnatic also won Early game against IMT almost winning the game and Longzhu smashed Fnatic in 20. How do you explain that then? There are no transitive property in league random variables can happen with BO1s. Thats why I look at history and recent results SKT and Korean teams have shown to be more dominant in all stages of the competition while NA hasn't even made it past quarters ever. In fact before C9 won a Bo5 in Play ins. NA has not won A SINGLE BO5 at worlds since SEASON 1. Thats not hypothetical thats fact. You can discount history all you want as you can use the "history doesn't matter only the past week matters." But history has shown time and time again Korea is the premier region and until that changes no argument of NA being better is ever close to being valid. These are irrelevant information you say? You're just being ignorant if you don't think these are relevant arguments as oppose to "Oh NA has done well the first week of words so........NEXT YEAR THEY ARE GOING TO BE THE BEST!" What "relevant" information do you have to support that bro?

What part of Korea has dominated the past tournaments and NA has done nothing except win a few games this tournament is hypothetical? That is fact. You initiated a very controversial point that NA will surpass Korea and so far have shown nothing factual to back that up. I said Korea has lost games in the group stages of BOTH MSI(2016) and worlds(2013,2016) in the past and still dominated the rest of the way. That is not hypothetical it is also a fact. So basically you just pointed out a beyond ridiculous statement that NA will dominate with no evidence to suggest any of it. You're entitled to your opinion but its no denying how far fetched and unrealistic it is. Last year doesn't affect this year true but it still much more reliable than for you to just say NA will be the premier region based off one week of groups.

Best OBC NAOct 14, 20172 votes

Tell me, did TSM and IMT get out of groups? NA team winning worlds? NA close to Korea? yea there is nothing you can do to change my mind

Gambit KOROct 11, 20173 votes

The thing about Korea is that they usually drop games in the group stage. Last year they lost 4 games in total during the group stages but they went on to completely wreck everybody in the Knockout Stage B o 5's ultimately having 3 Korean teams in Semi's. Don't get me wrong NA seems really good this year, but historically they are known to have a bad second week at World's group stage. Also, Korea usually hides a lot of their strategy during group stages and pulls out new stuff at knockout. Once Korea gets to the Knockout stages, they will destroy everyone.

Panman18Oct 10, 20174 votes

I like the optimism, but we have to wait for week 2. Remember that NA went 6-3 in the first week in both Worlds 2016 and 2015, so I'm keeping the hype tempered.

jpnarutolife21Oct 11, 20172 votes

yeah then rematch vs SSG DL got tilted for rest of worlds

RiotMean Mister KienOct 11, 20176 votes

I meant that from this point on, TSM has the toughest road. If C9 beats ahq -- which they should -- then they all but assure they'll make it out barring a miracle EDG run. Likewise, if IMT knocks out the Marines, then an even less likely FNC miracle run is what would knock them down. Both of those matchups favor the NA teams big time.

However, TSM likely needs to win 2 matches this week to secure their advance. The Flash Wolves are 0-3, but remember TSM actually struggled against them. I think anything short of 2 teams from NA advancing at this point would be a disappointment, but it's a very likely chance all three make it.

C9 MagnusOct 11, 20172 votes

Fair enough. I appreciate you taking the time to comment. I would like to say that you're not wrong if you take into consideration how TSM has been playing compared to other NA teams. I do agree that if only 1 NA team gets out of groups it would be a major disappointment, but I also think that if no NA team makes it to Semis it will be an even greater disappointment. North America currently, in my opinion, posses the ability to make a deep run into the tournament. Hopefully I'm not making big assumptions off of week 1 flukes, but I don't think that NA doing well at worlds is a fluke. We've been getting progressively better as a region and not many people want to give NA that credit. Well, enough of that tangent, you get the point.

thisismyname1Oct 11, 20171 votes

Hey, do you think that C9 has a good chance of beating SKT this second time if SKT can't fix their weak early games from week one? Also, I think that SKT crushing C9 was due to bad choices from C9 like their first gank on Faker, not saying C9 would've won the first game but I think it would've been more competitive.

RiotMean Mister KienOct 12, 20175 votes

I don't think so. I think C9 is really good against teams weaker than them. They're really great when it comes to winning lane and then winning the game -- think H2K from last year. I think they flop over a bit in 50/50 situations or when they're behind, though. And the competition will make it harder for them to win lane as they progress. It's not impossible, but I think they'd need 2 out of 3 lanes to win, and I think SKT has the advantage in all three lanes.

TheLastHopeeOct 13, 20171 votes

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha NA fans LUL sorry about IMT hope you guys dont go 0-10 again

RathimasOct 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha NA fans LUL sorry about IMT hope you guys dont go 0-10 again

Yeah you believed in FNC so much you probably just switched to your old icon. Guess bandwagons know no borders.

WeCantStopOct 11, 20172 votes

Dude seeing someone being over optimistic makes me laugh so hard. No offense XD there is only 0.1% or even lower chance for a NA team to get into finals. If that 0.1% really happened, it should be TSM not C9... Just think about it, SKT, RNG, LZ, WE, where is the place for NA????

C9 MagnusOct 11, 20172 votes

WE looks like it should be a wildcard team, RNG looks to be on par with IMT, and SKT/LZ aren't invincible. If TSM "should be" the NA team that goes to finals than why did they lose to an EU team? Also, percentage based "chances" are highly inaccurate and only truly exist to show bias. If I were to guesstimate the chances of NA making it to finals, I would say it's closer to 30% than 0.1% chance (especially if more than one NA team makes it to semis). #NABiasBestBias

RathimasOct 11, 20174 votes

I have read most of your post on NA teams and this is one of the most biased one in a line of many. Know way in hell is RNG on par with IMT even the most devout NA fan boy wouldn’t say that. RNG looks like the best team at worlds so far. IMT barely beat a terrible FNC team. Not to mention SSG and G2 would kill to be in group B Which was deemed the group of death. Having GAM and a bad FNC makes B an easier group. Then you say WE should be a wildcard team that’s nonsense. WE isn’t dominating like people expected but are competitive and if in knockout stages can beat a Korean team. The pre tournament look at groups everyone said Group D was the group of life since every team that wanted make it out wanted this group.

C9 MagnusOct 11, 20172 votes

#NABiasBestBias

RathimasOct 11, 20173 votes

The problem with that extreme bias, it makes anything else you say unbelievable. Like I agree on some points you said about C9 but hard to defend the IMT being better than RNG. Or how TSM sucks because they lost to an EU team. When IMT barely beats FNC a team that was stomped by misfits in EU playoffs. That doesn’t inspire me to say they are at the level of RNG. It just tell me thank god they got an imploding FNC and GAM in their group.

Late For TeaOct 11, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=C9 Magnus,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-10T18:04:16.812+0000)

C9 and IMT have the two hardest groups and are thriving. EDG and AHQ are not weak teams yet C9 was able to make them look like wild card teams ... Korea is no longer a guarantee anymore, and if C9 and/or IMT cleaned up their play we could very well see an NA win over the "most dominant" region.

Sorry, but when someone claims C9 is a strong team I just can't help but disagree. You severely overestimate the strength of C9. C9 didn't make anyone look like a wildcard team, EDG and AHQ made themselves look like a wildcard team. AHQ initiated unfavorable fights while they could just back off, handing over free kills in the early game. They also teleported after objectives were already taken, giving up any pressure they had. C9 didn't do anything this game, AHQ lost it themselves. EDG is just playing bad in general (Scout was overextending constantly in their game vs C9), this has nothing to do with how C9 played.

C9 got completely dismantled by SKT, whereas the other two teams had a better shot. It seems history is going to repeat itself, and follow a similar pattern as last Worlds. SKT is going to claim the #1 seed and C9 gets the #2 seed for free, because the better team (EDG) isn't showing up. Last year C9 got a free pass out of group stage because FW lost twice to iMay (arguably wildcard level), and couldn't close out one of their games versus C9 (which showed the inability of FW, not how good C9 is).

C9 always seem to have luck on their side. They hardly ever make plays themselves, they completely rely on other teams making mistakes against them. And when teams face C9, they all of a sudden seem to have forgotten how to play.

TSM and IMT are playing a lot better than C9, and if they make it out of groups, I see those two teams advancing further than C9 (depending on knock-out matchups). Though in all honestly, NA making it to the finals is a long shot. They aren't playing on the level of any of the 3 Korean teams or RNG.

C9 MagnusOct 11, 20171 votes

The fact that C9 is able to capitalize on the mistakes of other teams while not having the same done to them makes them good. You can say "EDG and AHQ lost those games themselves" all you want but that's just denying credit where credit is due. As goes NA not playing on the same level as any of the Korean teams or China's Cloud 9, I again disagree. IMT showed that they are at least as good as SSG, if not better, in their game against LZ. Nearly beating the number one seed in Korea is not something to be taken lightly.

Late For TeaOct 11, 20173 votes

I think you're being way too optimistic about NA's chances, looking at your posts in this thread. It is good to be confident in your region, but you also have to look at the games rationally.

Yes I admit C9 is good at capitalizing the mistakes of other teams, but that doesn't necessarily make them a good team. I believe you have to be proactive and dare to make plays to be considered good, otherwise you only win because the other team isn't good enough. If AHQ runs in 2v4 or 1v4 immediately followed by another 1v4, you can hardly praise C9 for capitalizing on that. Even a bronze team can win 4v1 if the enemy just mindlessly runs in. If in a soccer match you win with 1-0, because someone from the other team kicked the ball into his own goal, would this mean that the winning team is good? No. As teams become better, they will make less mistakes, therefore the chances of C9 winning greatly reduce.

On multiple occassions have you said IMT almost beat LZ, but this is a bit far-fetched if you look at the match realistically. Korean teams are generally late game focused teams, so it really isn't weird that another team may have a gold/kill lead over them pre-20 minutes. LZ won with the baron they got, lets consider the standing before they took the baron. IMT were up 1.5k gold at 25 minutes and turret score was even. In no way was IMT in a prime position to close out that game. Once LZ got the baron, they closed out the game within 5 minutes, a game that was dead-even at that point. This says a lot about LZ, and even more about IMT. They got completely run over.

You make NA teams out to be way better than they actually are, and you put too much focus on individual games. BO1 games are very diffent from BO3 and BO5s. Just because a team makes it out of groups doesn't mean they have a serious shot at winning Worlds. MSF have looked rather impressive in their games, and they may make it out of groups. But in no way do I expect them to have any serious chance at winning Semi-finals (and then only if they get lucky with their Quarterfinals matchup).

RathimasOct 11, 20172 votes

LZ with a baron to end game is what good teams do at that point in game. So that was expected the thing that was unexpected was IMT making it competitive till that baron. Everyone was saying LZ is the best Korean team and should make finals, the team with khan, BBD and pray and gorilla who beat SKT in the finals. For IMT to hang in with them is why he has some hope. Even if his extreme NA bias makes him dismissable.

BigBellBruteOct 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=C9 Magnus,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000b0000,timestamp=2017-10-11T09:09:06.255+0000)

The fact that C9 is able to capitalize on the mistakes of other teams while not having the same done to them makes them good. You can say "EDG and AHQ lost those games themselves" all you want but that's just denying credit where credit is due. As goes NA not playing on the same level as any of the Korean teams or China's Cloud 9, I again disagree. IMT showed that they are at least as good as SSG, if not better, in their game against LZ. Nearly beating the number one seed in Korea is not something to be taken lightly.

Bingo. It's nothing more than denying credit where it was due. Sour grapes. And sure, credit goes to a team for almost beating a great korean team. And if it is backed up by two wins like in the case of IMT then yes credit that and IMT took care of business last week. Let's hope they can do the same or even a little bit better tonight. It's a new week. I certainly like IMT's chances. But nothing is assured for anyone. Regardless of what happens, I'll be glad as an IMT fan. We were rebuilding. And to make worlds... well everything now is just icing on the cake. Didn't even expect to be here. And here we are with a good chance to get out of groups.

But credit to C9 too. They didn't do well against the Korean team but took care of business the rest of the way last week. Here's hoping they do it again.

As for TSM, if IMt makes it out in second, it is in our interest for TSM not to get first. That way we have a chance at a team we know we can play with whereas if TSM comes out in first, we're probably going to see SKT or RNG...... RNG is a very tall order for Cody. And SKT is a tall order across the board.

RathimasOct 11, 20172 votes

I agree on AHQ and EDG played SKT tougher and were more of a challenge to them then the steamroll that was SKT vs C9. I can’t agree on TSM and IMT being better than C9 since C9 is the only team not ranked where most would have put them. TSM is first and IMT is second which most would have Expected for those two. Before the start of groups I had EDG second and C9 has surprised

Late For TeaOct 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I agree on AHQ and EDG played SKT tougher and were more of a challenge to them then the steamroll that was SKT vs C9. I can’t agree on TSM and IMT being better than C9 since C9 is the only team not ranked where most would have put them. TSM is first and IMT is second which most would have Expected for those two. Before the start of groups I had EDG second and C9 has surprised

That doesn't illustrate the full picture though. The only reason C9 is currently second in group A is because EDG is severely underperforming, not because C9 is overperforming. As of now, group A is probably one of the easiest groups. It is difficult to assess the relative strength of C9, because they haven't had any competitive games yet. In one game they pretty much got stomped by SKT, in the two other games they won fairly cleanly because the other two teams didn't show up. Meanwhile both IMT and TSM have had several competitive games.

Since its hard to assess C9's strength, all you can do is make a comparison based on the NA summer season results. And there, C9 was completely outclassed by TSM and IMT. That C9 shouldn't even have made it to Worlds to begin with.

RathimasOct 11, 20174 votes

If you have seen any of my other post I agree that group A and B are easier groups than we thought before hand. Because AHQ is the team we thought they would be and EDG shitting the bed. While FNC being this bad and having GAM makes B just as easy. Group D is more competitive than was thought even though I never agreed on why people were so low on MSF and so high on FNC.

What I should have said was that C9 is playing to their strengths and look better doing it than TSM and IMT. So while I think TSM and IMT are the better all around teams, C9 is winning doing what they do best. Which I think C9 is doing what they need to do. Week 2 we find out who’s the best.

Late For TeaOct 11, 20172 votes

Thanks for clarifying, I fully agree with you. It's going to be exciting to see what week 2 will bring.

BigBellBruteOct 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Tea,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000b00010000,timestamp=2017-10-11T15:48:46.840+0000)

That doesn't illustrate the full picture though. The only reason C9 is currently second in group A is because EDG is severely underperforming, not because C9 is overperforming. As of now, group A is probably one of the easiest groups. It is difficult to assess the relative strength of C9, because they haven't had any competitive games yet. In one game they pretty much got stomped by SKT, in the two other games they won fairly cleanly because the other two teams didn't show up. Meanwhile both IMT and TSM have had several competitive games.

Since its hard to assess C9's strength, all you can do is make a comparison based on the NA summer season results. And there, C9 was completely outclassed by TSM and IMT. That C9 shouldn't even have made it to Worlds to begin with.

EDG underperformed your preconcieved notion of how good they were. A notion that last week at least, was in error.

BigBellBruteOct 11, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Tea,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000b,timestamp=2017-10-11T07:36:58.139+0000)

... Korea is no longer a guarantee anymore, and if C9 and/or IMT cleaned up their play we could very well see an NA win over the "most dominant" region.

Sorry, but when someone claims C9 is a strong team I just can't help but disagree. You severely overestimate the strength of C9. C9 didn't make anyone look like a wildcard team, EDG and AHQ made themselves look like a wildcard team. AHQ initiated unfavorable fights while they could just back off, handing over free kills in the early game. They also teleported after objectives were already taken, giving up any pressure they had. C9 didn't do anything this game, AHQ lost it themselves. EDG is just playing bad in general (Scout was overextending constantly in their game vs C9), this has nothing to do with how C9 played.

C9 got completely dismantled by SKT, whereas the other two teams had a better shot. It seems history is going to repeat itself, and follow a similar pattern as last Worlds. SKT is going to claim the #1 seed and C9 gets the #2 seed for free, because the better team (EDG) isn't showing up. Last year C9 got a free pass out of group stage because FW lost twice to iMay (arguably wildcard level), and couldn't close out one of their games versus C9 (which showed the inability of FW, not how good C9 is).

C9 always seem to have luck on their side. They hardly ever make plays themselves, they completely rely on other teams making mistakes against them. And when teams face C9, they all of a sudden seem to have forgotten how to play.

TSM and IMT are playing a lot better than C9, and if they make it out of groups, I see those two teams advancing further than C9 (depending on knock-out matchups). Though in all honestly, NA making it to the finals is a long shot. They aren't playing on the level of any of the 3 Korean teams or RNG.

This is nothing more than sour grapes. Part of a team's strength is not doing things that lose you games. Part of being a strong team is not throwing good lives after bad, not initiating unfavorable fights, not throwing games. knowing when not to make a 50-50 baron call, not flashing foward and getting yourself blown up at a crucial part of the game, knowing when to take a fight and when to avoid it, knowing when to walk away instead of throwing more lives and more gold over to the other team. So the fact that last week, those other teams did these things that lost them games against C9 and C9 didn't do these things as much means C9 was the stronger team last week. And virtually every 0-3 team in the field can point to well I played Team X better than anyone else. But that is what 0-3 teams do. They lose the game they were in and had a chance to win and lose other games too. That's why they're 0-3. To make the claim that those other teams were better than C-9. No. They weren't. They did things to lose. C9 didn't. That made C9 the better team last week. But this week is a new week. Perhaps those other two teams can clean up their act and be better than C-9 this week. Perhaps not. LOL isn't transitive. But whatever happens this week, C-9 was the better team last week. If we judged teams by who they Almost beat, Vanderbilt would be #1 in the SEC. That's what losing teams do. They Almost beat teams they were in the game to beat. And they just flat out lose other games.