MonteCristo seems to be intentionally misunderstanding...

ModKnightsKemplar·Aug 10, 2015·5 votes·1,566 views

Here's the deal, Monte. You are right about your positive points. It WOULD help pro players improve to have sandbox mode, and I actually kind of agree that there should be one. Consider me on your side.

What makes me irate though, is when people fail to make any concerted attempt to understand the argument being employed. Riot ALSO agrees that players would improve with this mode. What they are saying is that they think it would contribute to community toxicity to have this mode.

Think about this: any time you fail a flash over a wall, your teammates can tell you that you aren't good enough to be playing ranked yet. It becomes a requirement that players have to practice in the sandbox just to avoid being complained at by other players. THIS is the higher barrier of entry Riot is talking about.

You can disagree about whether or not that could happen. You can disagree about whether or not that's a good argument. But please, don't act like you don't understand the concern. It's a real concern. Riot is trying not to alienate players, and that's a good motive. Let's not demonize them just because they disagree with you, please.

19 Comments

TheDuelist999Aug 10, 20153 votes

Ya I'm not really sure what the downside is again. The community already as more toxicity than I have the ability to perceive this will just alter the insults made not increase the amount. Essentially non-sandbox flash = na flash and sandboxflash= eu flash.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 10, 20151 votes

That's a fair point. But you're already ahead of Monte, because you are making an effort to understand their point.

Your argument is better than Monte's. A+

Earl EulrichAug 10, 20151 votes

what I really don´t understand in that matter...it´s just so easy to test out many things in a custom-botgame - i really don´t think a full fledged sandbox mode would add much. (and yea, even pros warm up/lvl up their lasthitting in botgames from time to time atm already).

ModKnightsKemplarAug 10, 20151 votes

It's this point that I think Riot should cling to more.

The more I do light programming/computer stuff, the more I realize how hard it is to make stuff like this accessible and not buggy. It would be an extreme amount of work to get something like this going. To me, there's no doubt about that.

Monte brings up those questions in his video, and I agree with him that Riot should answer about that. The man hours, I think, would surprise him. Which might lead to a better discussion.

Earl EulrichAug 10, 20151 votes

I don´t really think Monte is ever interessted in discussion. He´s just used to being right most of the time and incredible biased towards his opinion. If DOA wouldnßt balance him out so well he´s be half as popular as a caster as he is...

that being said, I think a discussion isn´t what Riot wants aswell, as they already made their decission to not invest ressources into a sandbox mode and surly aren´t willing to change that.

So all that´s left to discuss is a good old boards discussion without any real impact *smiles*

So my 2cents:

custom-botgames offer already enough as a sandbox/training-ground
new players already have a hard time getting through a lot of verbal abuse, adding "go back to trainging ground" or similar to that surly won´t improve the situation.
the pro-argument is really really not working. The main difference between good and bad teams is not so much the mechanics (any pro should have good to excellent mechanics already, and SoloQ/normal botgames offer enough to train thiose), it´s ingame-decission-making aswell as teamwork. Both things that you won´t ever learn in a sandbox.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 10, 20151 votes

Ha! Mostly well said.

I like to think that the boards discussion do make some difference. There have been posts in the past that were acted on with pretty good time.

I saw posts about an item to buff healers before Ardent Censer came out. I saw posts about choosing roles when queueing before Team Builder was announced. Were either of those things super influential? Maybe not yet. I hope ranked team builder will be, at least.

Riot does read boards. Sometimes they just lurk, but that's enough. I'm okay with that. It's still important to respect the other party in discussion, and as you already helpfully pointed out, there's people who consistently do a bad at that.

PoisonedTeaAug 10, 20151 votes

No you don't understand.

Riot has chosen to prioritize the casual scene. That is all good and well. But they hindering the competitive scene because of that. They don't need too and shouldn't. A sandbox mode does not presser the casual scene it is just a training area.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 10, 20151 votes

I DO understand that. And I agree with you. Mostly.

The point is, I see how Riot could think it would pressure the casual scene. Again, the goal is to have a decent discussion, which Monte fails to do in this video.

PoisonedTeaAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I DO understand that. And I agree with you. Mostly.

The point is, I see how Riot could think it would pressure the casual scene. Again, the goal is to have a decent discussion, which Monte fails to do in this video.

I doesn't presser casual players in other games so there is no proof to any of their claims. LoL is not an overwhelming game not to DotA lvl.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 10, 20151 votes

That's a little better point. You're on the right track.

If I were Riot, I would say this; I don't want to threaten my players just because there's no guarantee that this is a bad idea. It might be a bad idea, and I don't want to introduce it if it would be. CS:GO is not LoL. The communities are different. The players are different.

As far as comparing to DoTA...

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/dota-2-hits-1-million-concurrent-players-still-far/1100-6425324/

Yeah. Lots different. Also, does DoTA have a sandbox? That might add considerably to the discussion.

PoisonedTeaAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's a little better point. You're on the right track.

If I were Riot, I would say this; I don't want to threaten my players just because there's no guarantee that this is a bad idea. It might be a bad idea, and I don't want to introduce it if it would be. CS:GO is not LoL. The communities are different. The players are different.

As far as comparing to DoTA...

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/dota-2-hits-1-million-concurrent-players-still-far/1100-6425324/

Yeah. Lots different. Also, does DoTA have a sandbox? That might add considerably to the discussion.

I can tell you right now why I get overwhelmed by DotA. There is no lvling, It just throwing into the crowed. But that is not that bad. It gives you every hero. What do I pick what pick idea. It doesn't ease you into understanding a few champions per week. The game is just more complicated some of it I like some I don't. It is more punishing when playing bad. That is terrible for a new player. Active items(isn't so bad if it wasn't the importance of the items it self, blink dagger).

PoisonedTeaAug 10, 20151 votes

Have you seen this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yzLPNd3WdM

ModKnightsKemplarAug 10, 20151 votes

Again, your arguing the points that Riot already addressed. It's not that they don't understand the pros. They already stated that they did. You and Monte would get along real well.

They are arguing against it because of how it affects the casual player (and by extension, new player) experience. As long as you ignore all of their points, they aren't going to listen.

You see, I made this thread hoping that we could have a better discussion with Riot about this. You are still failing to do that. They will be unconvinced by you beating this dead horse.

PoisonedTeaAug 10, 20151 votes

I think a big question we should ask. Why is it a bad thing you have to train to get good. You have to do it anyway. It is just harder to do it without some Proper training area.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 10, 20151 votes

It's not a bad thing to have to train.

It's a bad thing if people bully you into doing it, because you lose players as a result. That's the concern.

MinrogAug 11, 20151 votes

I agree with Monte here. Except that only pro players want a sandbox mode.

Blizzard has it in Heroes of the Storm. Keep in mind that I'm a noob casual player who is never going pro, and never going to be great at any video game. I wanted to see if Valla was a good character for me to buy, and whether her rotations would work in sync with my preferred play style. So I logged into their sandbox mode and practiced with Valla until I was comfortable with her and how she worked. I also worked out a couple of level up paths for her skills, without the onus of having other people or bots to deal with.

The only reason I can see that Riot wants to make it harder for people to play/learn is that their client is too poorly designed and they can't make it work. Which is fine because other companies (whose games I play) offer it. Replays too.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 11, 20151 votes

Fair point.

But again, I don't disagree with Monte. I simply find him to be offensively and willfully ignorant of Riot's actual argument. It prohibits good discussion.

PoisonedTeaAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I agree with Monte here. Except that only pro players want a sandbox mode.

Blizzard has it in Heroes of the Storm. Keep in mind that I'm a noob casual player who is never going pro, and never going to be great at any video game. I wanted to see if Valla was a good character for me to buy, and whether her rotations would work in sync with my preferred play style. So I logged into their sandbox mode and practiced with Valla until I was comfortable with her and how she worked. I also worked out a couple of level up paths for her skills, without the onus of having other people or bots to deal with.

The only reason I can see that Riot wants to make it harder for people to play/learn is that their client is too poorly designed and they can't make it work. Which is fine because other companies (whose games I play) offer it. Replays too.

I don't think riot wants to risk making a sandbox mode were people make there own game types but you could just not do that.