Megestos23 votesDear Taylor Cocke,
you use the term "man mode" to describe bold, skillful playing. I know that this is wide-spread e-sports terminology - LCS casters use it regularly - but I think that this choice of words is problematic.
Labeling a brave, confident and masterful attitude as "going man mode" associates those positive characteristics with masculinity. With that phrase - and others like it -, women and other people who don't identify as male are rhetorically excluded from mastery. Associating "being a man" with "being confident, skilled and focused" reproduces the culture of masculinity in e-sports which makes games like league less attractive to females and LBGT persons.
I have no doubt that neither you, Taylor Cocke, nor any of the LCS casters has the intention to reinforce that kind of culture. I'm sure that Riot and its employees have an interest in fighting sexism in gaming. Riot wants to be the most player-centric company - in order to do that, it surely has to be inclusive to women and LBGT people. So please, for the sake of fighting sexism - don't use masculine terminology to label skill and guts. There are so many words in the english language, I'm sure you'll find something better!
Best regards, Maxim Suckow
Shinji10TH25 votesStop bringing sexism and freaks crap (LBGT and what not) onto every single thing, because it's the reason way this "culture," as you so much hate, continues. You have to understand that you're not going to change what 99% of the people know as a common expression to suit your supposedly wounded ego. Have you ever seen any smart girl or women complain about that ? No sir, because it's utterly meaningless.
Megestos13 votesLook, Shinji, this is not about a wounded ego. As I have pointed out in my original post, I'm sure that Cocke and others have no bad intentions. I am complaining about terminology that reproduces bad social relationships. Let me help you understand me:
Imagine that, after Aphromoo does some awesome plays in the LCS, someone would say: Aphro is playing "like a white guy". That would imply that, before, when he was playing worse, he was NOT playing like a white guy, right? So, according to that use of words in that particular context, "playing like a white guy" would mean "playing better", right? Noone would ever say something like that in public, because he or she would be called out for using racist terminology, and rightly so. Now how is saying "he was playing like a man" not sexist, if saying "he was playing like a white person" would be racist?
See, I'm not bringing sexism into League. It's already there, waiting for me. People don't use phrases like "be a man" (meaning be strong, be confident) because feminism exists; it's the other way around: feminism continues because sexism continues. Your claim that complaints like mine actually CREATE the problem that I'm complaining about is, frankly, ridiculous. Sexism is much older than feminism. And, since you're asking: I have seen plenty of smart women complain about gender-problematic terminology. Feminism is quite popular among educated women (and men, for that matter). So yes, I have seen a smart woman complain about phrases like "going man mode". I've seen many of them complain.
PS: It's hard to miss the irony when you accuse me of exaggerating the impact of sexist rhetorics - while you, yourself, call homosexuality, bisexuality and trassexuality "freaks crap". Honestly, I feel like your post actually validates my point.
Necropolistic19 votesWhile I in no way support Shinji's post of ignorance and applaud your attempt for equality I believe you are misrepresenting the term "man mode". You seem to deem it as "brave, confident and masterful attitude" as well as "bold, skillful playing". Even when in the very opening of the article the author wrote is as a “Screw it, I got this.” type of scenario. If anything, this implies a "done with this" or "I'm gonna try to do it all myself" type of attitude, which many men posses from the so very common masculine trait of lots of testosterone - which is simple genetics and not any sort of sexist feature.
You're attempting to associate "man mode" with success, skillful, and masterful play but it simply is not the case. "Man mode" is just describing any sort of play in which one person just goes "ham" if you will and tries to do everything themselves because they've had enough of whatever the case may be. You forget that this not only sometimes, but often fails, and yet would still be deemed "man mode" nevertheless. If anything this term would be negative more for men since it perhaps attributes over-aggressiveness, lack of patience or restraint and possibly a negative attitude towards the situation in some scenarios.
What is displayed in this article is simply the best moments of "man modeing". It is the moments in which going "man mode" not only was successful but turned into some very outstanding plays. He could just have easily shown Vasilii going "man mode" on tristana or ezreal while jumping INTO a fight and maybe getting a kill or two before dying but that's not the point of this article. The objective was just to highlight some amazing plays that were the result of going "man mode".
So please, while I applaud you striving for equality everywhere, attacking something as silly as the term "man mode" is not the most optimal use of your time for this purpose. Perhaps you should visit the site of the westboro baptist church and teach them true equality, for they definitely need it.
warpedmind4 votesTLDR?
Megestos10 votesThanks for your reply, Necropolistic.
I see your point that "going man mode" can also mean 'being reckless' and 'taking matters into your own hand'. But I still have the impression that the phrase is usually used in a positive context. So while I agree that the term focused less on skill and more on aggressivenes and self-reliance, the problem is (almost) the same, because agressiveness and self-reliance are, to some degree, desirable qualities in sports.
Without going too much into detail, the "I'm gonna try to do it all myself"-attitude is not genetically masculine. Yes, testosterone creates aggression, but obviously women can be violent and aggressive too. And testosterone has NOTHING to do with self-reliance and confidence ("screw this, I got this"). The idea that men should be active problem-solvers, while women should stand back and let men solve the problems, is cultural, not genetic.
There are studies that show that women do worse in math tests if, before taking the test, they read an article which claims that women are less talented in math. From the first day when a human is born, people already behave differently towards him or her depending on gender. Many of the traits that look like genetics are actually culture - which is why it's so important to be careful about things like language.
I absolutely agree that there are much worse problems than the term "man mode". But while I'm not a member of the westboro baptist church, I am a member of the LoL community - so the way we use gender metaphors here is very important to me. So, for me, it's worth the time. Also, there's always a bigger problem to solve - this shouldn't stop us from tackling the smaller problems, should it?
Iron Bull8 votesFlawless logic to state that the reason that there is a culture of inequality is that people point out those inequalities. Because it would just go away by itself if everyone kept their mouths shut? Yeah. All right. FYI it's also quite ironic to call pointing this out meaningless in the same breath as referring to LGBT people as freaks; good job coming up with something outright hateful in response to problematic semantics.
CrayonDragon5 votesI just think he is making a point... quit harking on him. Calling it man mode does blow it out of proportions. As for Ackerman's play, they couldve said he went back to his roots to make Godlike plays. He was after all known as GoDLike... :)
Megestos5 votesThanks for your backup, but I'd say that this discussion is pretty civil (for now) :)
The Bruce3 votesBecause of lack of a better comment to reply to, i would also like to point out that there are no female or transgender players currently playing in the lcs. And until that changes, one cannot expect a change of demographic. The term could also be looked at being the manliest of them all. As i do support the efforts people have made to equalize stereotypes, there is a definite line that needs to be respected.
Amulekk13 votesWow. I think this is a little oversensitive. This really isnt that big a deal.
Megestos11 votesI can see how you feel that way, Amulekk. But language shapes the way we see the world; even small changes in language can have an effect on social relations. And sexism certainly is a problem in online gaming - so it's worth a shot, isn't it?
FridayBTieDay8 votesSo satisfying to read this. I don't understand claims that you're blowing something out of proportion just because you're taking the time to clearly articulate a valid thought. You're not calling anyone a bigot or typing in all caps--it's a decent point that, hopefully, results in a handful of people giving an easy-to-ignore issue a bit more consideration. Thank you!
BAD PandaJustice2 votesI'm glad that someone addressed this. Megestos you have presented your case in a fair rational manner, it was really refreshing to read what you had to say. Thank you for bringing this to people's attention.
Qualk4 votesI completely agree with Megestos, and I would add that it doesn't even matter if the term "man-mode" refers to a positive or negative situation regarding a player, either way is sexist either negatively towards men or negatively towards women.
Also, for anyone who thinks it's "not a big deal" I would refer you to this article.
DISCLAIMER The article contains graphic language, slurs, and triggering content.
http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/22/5926193/women-gaming-harassment
Blazicus5 votesJust want to say that everything you wrote was extremely well-formulated and unbelievably intelligently written. I commend you and hope you can continue to find and point out inequities in gaming with your high intelligence! I also completely agree with your points and I'm not a grown woman, I'm a teenage boy, so anyone with any amount of respect for women can be and is a feminist. I feel that the term man-mode is used in both manners, to mean something crazily stupid and reckless, or to mean something was well-played and impressive. I do agree that it has a positive connotation typically however, so I do agree with what you're saying.
Pippydoodles4 votesTHANK YOU.
LAS Player 190MS5 votesThis is actually really insightful. Its one of those things you don't think about unless you're the person who feels undervalued.
Iridithe3 votesIts suppose to be funny. As you can tell nobody else is saying anything about it. Its like any other phrase. I wouldn't say DAMN HE WENT IN BECAUSE HES BOLD AND SKILLFUL. Thats just dumb as hell. Anyone would say he either went ham or man mode. Its suppose to be funny remember? You seem to be the only one with a problem with it either. :/
BAD PandaJustice2 votesHe's clearly not the only person that has a problem with it. At the least I think he raises excellent points and clearly articulates a legitimate problem.
Jenubis2 votesI don't think it is even a "problem" per se. It's only a problem if someone makes it a problem. If we were to try and be politically correct in everything we do, there would be no personality and even a lack of humor. There are times and places for political-correctness such as this; but this is not one of those and it kind've makes the entire point moot.
Megestos1 votesAll problems are problems because someone makes it a problem. That's a truism.
Of course many people here don't see the problem - because it's not THEIR problem. If you're male, nobody every claims that you are "incompetent in video games because you're a girl". Online gaming has a sexism problem, and this is the comment section of an online gaming community site, so this is very much the time and place for political correctness. Maybe the sexism problem in online gaming is not YOUR problem, but it IS a problem.
Jenubis1 votesAll problems are problems because someone makes it a problem. That's a truism.
Of course many people here don't see the problem - because it's not THEIR problem. If you're male, nobody every claims that you are "incompetent in video games because you're a girl". Online gaming has a sexism problem, and this is the comment section of an online gaming community site, so this is very much the time and place for political correctness. Maybe the sexism problem in online gaming is not YOUR problem, but it IS a problem.
Look, you don't know if I'm a male or a female gamer, and to be fair not a single one of the female gamers I play with have this issue. They are actually more concerned with the horndogs and pervs that are more interested in their boobs than they are political correctness.
There is nothing derivative nor sexist about the term "Man-Mode" unless you try to stretch the imagination, it's just like trying to say that Black Gamers need to be called African Gamers instead of Black, or White Gamers need to be called Anglo-Saxon Gamers instead of White.
You stated it yourself, it is only a problem if people make it their problem, and this is not an issue I ever run into from the plethora of female gamers I do play with and know. Usually the toxic nature of posts within a gaming community comes about when someone posts something that are:
A. Ignorant and uneducated, and then when someone tries to correct the person who is wrong, gets attacked by the OP and states there is no such thing as a "Metagame" and that Tier Lists only exist in your mind. Not trying to bring up those debates, just giving an example that a community that is well-established within their own beliefs will of course lash out when someone new, Male or Female, makes broad statements and has little to no proof to back up their claims and starts to flame when asked to provide it. This is almost everything I ever see happen on any website's forums.
B. People come to advertise or spam - This could be directed towards a female who is only dropping by to show off their Twitch Stream, some people don't take kindly to it and can become a bit irritable, but for the most part I only see warnings from Moderators and it is removed or it is filled with other female/LGBT gamers who are complaining about her shirt being down too far, that she is only showing off her body for money, etc. Most men (the sexists, here) will watch and donate just to get some sort of excitement from it instead of trying to talk down.
C. Are coming into the game or forum and instantly starts trouble, such as flaming the enemy team or being toxic to their team, this too is not specific to a gender. I've seen more than my fair share of female gamers who will instantly turn into a rage queen and flame their team members, and then expect the world to take their side after the person gets offended and insults them back.
I'm sorry but the only sexism I usually see is in favor of the female gender moreso than it is to be against it. And no, this was not the time and place for political correctness, this was a casual topic with a casual title that clearly had no harm intended to it. If this were something you overheard in your workplace (And I do mean overheard because you can just as easily choose to avoid a forum topic as you can walk away) and reported it to someone like your HR Rep, they would ask you these questions:
Notice the keywords "if so." Then that representative would ask themselves this question: Would a reasonable person be offended by this situation? And the answer is no, a reasonable person hearing some people say the word "man-mode" would not be a justifiable case of verbal harassment or sexism in that situation.
An example of what you're shooting for is something along the lines of "Why are you being such a bitch Julie? Are you on the rag or are you just mad you can't get all man-mode like me and do your own job."
And honestly, that is stretching it, because the real form of abuse in there is the cussing and the derogatory reference to her period. If you take those out it could even look almost like the situation was brought up out of something silly and the person likely thought it would be okay to say it, almost like a "pick fun at" an overall embarrassing situation, which can still be taken the wrong way and I will give you that.
My whole point is that this is only an issue when you choose to make it one and it looks like you have chosen to make that your personal goal, so you see the bad intentions behind even something as mild as this and decide to go on a posting spree in hopes of changing the ways someone looks at things. I'm not saying this to be rude I promise, but you need to choose better battles, because when you pick something as easy-going as this and turn it into a real issue then you are only going to be looked at as a joke or a lunatic.
If you want to end sexism in the online community, try to remove the real problem, which is females who use their body for profit on streams. If you want to get rid of the derogatory remarks, tackle the overall issue of flaming and toxicity and open people's minds as opposed to looking for something as obscure as "Man-Modements". Trust me, every community needs it and we could use someone who would be willing to fight for what is right.
xoxoxoxo6 votesThe term "Man Mode" is associated with someone being brave and masculine. That goes for ANYONE, women and men both have the ability to build muscle mass therefore your argument is simply some kind of nonsense over you being offended by this.
(Think about this in actuality.) To go man mode you must first be brave (Both man and women can do this), to go man mode you must first have strength (Both man and women can do this), to go man mode you must also be fearless (Both man and women can do this), and lastly to go man mode you must make something happen that you had all the votes to lose (Pretty sure anyone can do this).
You my friend are simply seeking attention and a waste of time. (Proved you wrong within 1 sentance with your own words.)
Megestos1 votesDear Rinzan,
I don't criticize the concept of 'Man Mode'. I criticize the label. Of course men and women are both able to "go man mode", but the label "man mode" does a poor job at expressing that.
You have shown that the thing that you call "man mode" can be achieved by women and men as well. So you disproved a claim that I never made - I never argued that women can't go "man mode". I argued that the TERM"man mode" IMPLIES that women can't or at least usually don't go "man mode".
Reheapification3 votesI don't mind saying 'woman mode' at all, assuming that you convince everybody to say that.
IS1c260016704aebf2e6a153 votesAwwwh did you study feminism at uni? Cute.
RE 4thSurvivor1 votessock it and suck it
Evilly Smiles3 votesIf this topic is so important to you, I'd highly advise you to write a letter to Riot Inc, because forum posts are neither official nor legally established. Furthermore, you seem to have a problem with the term "man-mode", because you reffer to it as a reduction of the femals gender's qualities, reasoning that by labelling the positive connotation of the term "man-mode". "Man" does also describe the human kind as itself, in this case, the gender relation is not given as guaranteed. And because I don't want to create a wall of text like you, I'll stop here and just give you a short food for thought: If "man" does not only describe the male gender, but the human race, words like "manly" are related to the description of human qualities. While mustaches and bravery are considered as "manly", breasts and a high pitched voice aren't.
Quoting you: "But language shapes the way we see the world; even small changes in language can have an effect on social relations."
Given my preface to this quote...have fun changing the English language by forum posts to guarantee equality. And coming back to your original problem, I think that you still did not understand what the term "man mode" means.
However, have a great day and make up your mind.
Best regards, Yuri
Megestos1 votesDear Yuri,
I did not intend to fundamentally change the English language by forum posts. My hope was to motivate language change in a few individuals - which is an appropriate goal for the 45-60 minutes that I invested in this little discussion. Of course I don't really know whether I had any effect, but at the very least, I created some attention to a problem that I find important. That's good enough for me. A letter to Riot might be a good idea, but it might also vanish unread; if I want to invest more time in this issue, I'll start a petition or something - but thanks for your suggestion.
As to your response to my criticism: yes, "man" can also mean "mankind". But certainly not in this context. Is "humanly" or "humane" an attribute to describe reckless bravery? No. Is "manly" an attribute to describe reckless bravery? Yes. There's no reason to believe that "man mode" is meant as "human mode". To claim that "manly" means "humanly" because "man" sometimes means "human" is a failed language trick. Sadly, your food for thought has the sour taste of sophistry.
(By the way: There's a reason why most essays and books have more than one page: many ideas are too complex to be expressed in three paragraphs. Hence the wall of text.)
Meanie4018 votesCaster call of the year in the second video.
"HOLY SHIT THEY WIN THE GAME!!"
Saquard7 votesIn second video, shoutacster said some nice words:) Holy sh*t!
g6s1dZsRhl4 votesMan this article must really offend all the women who play professional league of legends... Oh wait.
Megestos1 votesDid you ever wonder WHY there are (almost) no female progamers? Do you think that's genetics? Women can pilot fighter jets, but they can't be great at videogames? No, it's because online gaming is a male-dominated culture, which sadly makes it unattractive for women.
warpedmind2 voteswell, those were only american plays. can you do a european edition too? would love that !!
The Idiot Ninja2 votesToo bad EU LCS is boring. Farming til 40 mins, couple teamfights, game ends. The only exciting moments are due to bad calls - see Rekkles's call to keep pushing bot while Alliance is destroying their nexus in a past game.
Pure Sexiness2 votesmany vasilli plays are in man mode, that beast
TripwireTheGreat2 votes
Don't have this? Its not man mode.
Unicornfuntime1 votesMay I question the fact this entire comment section is based on sexism augments and the use of language cant we just appreciate these amazing plays
Megestos1 votesI don't think that we have to decide between the two. We can first appreciate the amazing plays, and then discuss language and sexism (or whatever order you want) :)
NateManOG1 votesits not sexist to say that most men have a all in personality and most women have a support/nurture type of personality...so if you think going man mode is sexist is very ignorant and you look very unintelligent. i know classifying women and men sounds sexist from the start but if you really take sexist to this level of drama you are a pathetic human.
Megestos1 votesLet's assume that it's correct that "most men have an all-in personality and most women have a support/nurture type of personaliy" - where does that come from? Yes, genetics have some impact on it, but culture and society have a much bigger impact. It starts the moment a baby is born: adults behave differently towards girls and boys. Boys are taught to be tough, girls are taught to be nurturing. There are a thousand ways in which people's gender identities are built and reinforced. One of those ways is to rhetorically identify "manlyness" with "bravery". It's not sexist to claim what you claim, but it's sexist to teach kids and adults alike to behave within predefined gender roles.
(PS: Whenever you say something like "if you think going man mode is sexist is very ignorant and you look very unintelligent", you basically say nothing more than "you're wrong", in a slightly more disrespectful way. If you want to make a good point, you should use arguments instead of personally attacking your opponent.)
GoJuKempo2 votesI feel sorry for you, and for people with your thought process. Would you also like us to stop saying "that's not ladylike" society if built on views, if you eliminate those views you break down society and we should all just stop speaking and start throwing poop and sniffing butts like the animals we would become. If a person gets turned off from the term "man mode" then clearly they do not possess that quality otherwise they would just buck up and do it. When you break down the sexist argument to its core, I ask, should we stop separating bathrooms because those are labels that separate the different sexes. Should we stop using terms such as motherly, father-figure. Sexism evolves from stereotypes and are often times correct, look at history when the stereotype changes so will the term but until more than just a few women can go "man mode" it will stay as man mode. Scientist were only male, doctors, fighters, now society's views have changed and it is expected to see women there, its not yet expected to see women going "man mode" and if just the term is keeping them from that then clearly they can't go "man mode"
Megestos1 votesDon't worry about me, I'm fine, thanks.
I'm not against culture in general. I'm against gender bias. Are gender stereotypes the only thing that keeps you from throwing poop and sniffing butts? I don't think so. Society would do perfectly fine without seperating people into two basic categories.
Since you pointed to history yourself: If you look at history, you'll find that stereotypes don't change by themselves. They change when they're challenged. And since stereotypes - like all concepts - are coded in language, you can challenge them with language.
Tell me, why are the female scientists and doctors today, when there was no such thing 200 years ago? By your logic, the fact that there were (almost) no female scientists in 1800 would prove the stereotype that women are too stupid to do science. Obviously women ARE able to be scientists, since there are plenty of female scientists now. Did women genetically change in the last 200? No. Culture changed. Expectations changed. Stereotypes are only correct because they are self-fulfilling prophecies.
Of course women will be less likely to go 'man mode' in a culture that tells them to be nice and docile. Look how much anger I drew by just criticizing a single word! I dared to oppose the masculine gamer culture, and got downvoted, insulted and attacked. Look how aggressive many of the replies to my posts are (including yourself: 'I feel sorry for you'). Now Imagine how much shit female gamers have to take every day. Online gaming is dominated by males, and many of them will aggressively defend their position of dominance. That makes it a hostile environment for women - and that's the true reason why you don't see women 'go man mode' often.
KanbaruCZE1 votesTabzz is going man mode
KanbaruCZE1 votesalmost every game
LucyPoiNyan1 votessupport isnt easy at all
Megestos1 votesIf you really doubt that there's problem with sexism in online gaming, do an experiment: Post a calm, nonagressive feminist post on an online gaming discussion page. Observe the wave of aggression that will hit you. Feel the hatred, disdain and contempt that female or LBGT gamers face every day.
(I'm not saying that my original post was an experiment. It was not. I'm just encouraging you to try defying the male internet gaming culture for a day and see what it feels like)