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I only have one problem with how SKT v ROX worked out

ValyrianBlade··5 votes·1,561 views

I mean, first congrats to SKT for winning. I don't really care all that much about the result (as much as a SKT v SSG final would guarantee a repeat champion). There were some great games in there too.

My problem is that ROX brought out an unexpected surprise pick, support MF, and rather than a world class team figuring out a way to deal with and beat the pick, they were simply able to just ban it. Meanwhile players keep asking for more bans.

There was never an attempt to pick MF (and get a chance to see what ROX would to against it). There was never an attempt to change their playstyle to beat MF support (in game 3 SKT went straight back to Zyra support and basically tried the same strategy thinking they could win now that MF wasn't a surprise pick and lost again). They didn't actually solve how to beat the pick, they just dropped one of the power-bans and banned the pick instead.

It bothers me that the best players in the world have such an easy out. I understand that we also don't want a team to win the world championships simply by cheesing a superior opponent. I understand that the unique pick earned ROX two wins, meaning they only had to win a single of the other three games to acquire a finals berth. I'm just disappointed that SKT, likely the best team in the world, was able to eliminate a winning strategy with a simple ban. We never got to see a pro team beat MF support. Had it gone down as ROX taking MF support in game 1, then SKT trying to replicate in game 2 and ROX showing us how to beat it (then SKT winning the next 3 because they know how to beat it now) then great.

So we see all these posts on the boards about "X is OP" and the response is "X isn't OP just counterpick Y" or "just play differently against X" and yet the pro players see a pick that was nowhere close to contested, so far from it in fact that the referees had to check that there wasn't some mistake/bug when MF was locked in for game 2, and rather than apply the simple things that people use on the boards to mass downvote posts SKT just "bans X". Is MF support OP? Far from it. There are legions of strategies that wipe the floor with MF support - Zyra just isn't one of them. If anything I felt like Ashe won games 2 and 3, not MF. Ashe lost game 4 because she didn't hit arrows at all like she was hitting in games 2 and 3. I don't think an MF support would have helped them in game 4 tbh, but we didn't get to see it.

I felt the same way when Aurelion Sol was banned against CLG, but much less so because he was already considered a power pick / contested pick and was used by other teams as well. A ban on Sol did not look like an unusual ban. There were other examples as well. I don't think it really makes sense that a pro player can practice a non-meta non-OP pick and bring it out and win with it, only to have it mean nothing more than that - a win where the rest of the series is decided without that strategy in play because of a simple ban.

And players keep asking for more bans. This semifinal showed pretty clearly, there really aren't grossly OP picks in league. Sure, there are annoying picks and lane counters, etc... but when a pro team can sacrifice a ban on a champion that wasn't even expected to show up in that role at any level of play it shows that power picks really aren't a huge deal. Counterplay or solving how to beat a pick isn't a required skill either. All you need to do is ban the pick, and be able to win 3-0 when the strategy isn't active. Which obviously is still hard and shows why SKT is such a great team - but still I would have become an SKT fan if they let MF through again and showed they could adapt and beat it. They didn't - so frankly I'm a ROX fan after that match for being able to pull out the unexpected and make it almost carry them to the finals.

5 Comments

Orinne3 votes

I don't get why people need to push this notion that X top team banning Y top team's Z pocket pick, you know, because they want to win, makes them cowardly/not pro enough/not cool/not playing to their full potential/not adapting to the situation/whatever other excuse you want to pull, and you literally have to dump them with every possible onus you can think of in some weird attempt to shame them and question whether they're actually a top team.

There was never an attempt to pick MF (and get a chance to see what ROX would to against it). There was never an attempt to change their playstyle to beat MF support (in game 3 SKT went straight back to Zyra support and basically tried the same strategy thinking they could win now that MF wasn't a surprise pick and lost again). They didn't actually solve how to beat the pick, they just dropped one of the power-bans and banned the pick instead.

Why would they pick some champion they've probably barely touched, just because ROX cheesed a few games off them, and expect it to just fit into their comp? Would you say the same on another barely used, even more specialized champion with a different playstyle/mechanic like Yorick or Heimer? They're in a semi-finals match with only 5 games to play. There is literally no reason to waste a game just to download what ROX would pick against support MF, if that's even a matchup they prepared for. Going back on the Zyra pick can easily be confidence on their part that they know what to expect having played Game 2, but when it failed a second time, there's literally no reason to risk a 3rd game. Hence, ban the pick and force ROX into a different strategy and pull them off of their momentum.

It bothers me that the best players in the world have such an easy out. I understand that we also don't want a team to win the world championships simply by cheesing a superior opponent. I understand that the unique pick earned ROX two wins, meaning they only had to win a single of the other three games to acquire a finals berth. I'm just disappointed that SKT, likely the best team in the world, was able to eliminate a winning strategy with a simple ban. We never got to see a pro team beat MF support. Had it gone down as ROX taking MF support in game 1, then SKT trying to replicate in game 2 and ROX showing us how to beat it (then SKT winning the next 3 because they know how to beat it now) then great.

So you understand that worlds shouldn't be about cheesing a superior opponent, yet you literally advocate that these supposed superior opponents potentially continue to get cheesed by some stray, unaccounted for pick, in some of the most important games of the year. Wat?

So we see all these posts on the boards about "X is OP" and the response is "X isn't OP just counterpick Y" or "just play differently against X" and yet the pro players see a pick that was nowhere close to contested, so far from it in fact that the referees had to check that there wasn't some mistake/bug when MF was locked in for game 2, and rather than apply the simple things that people use on the boards to mass downvote posts SKT just "bans X". Is MF support OP? Far from it. There are legions of strategies that wipe the floor with MF support - Zyra just isn't one of them. If anything I felt like Ashe won games 2 and 3, not MF. Ashe lost game 4 because she didn't hit arrows at all like she was hitting in games 2 and 3. I don't think an MF support would have helped them in game 4 tbh, but we didn't get to see it.

Probably because pro players don't scour the boards of largely bronze-silver players trying to make attempts at talking about strategy. If you're going to mention 'legions of strategies', at least bother to point out a few examples, though Wolf's played a total of 4 champions, none of which can reliably outpoke MF with any guarantee. Zyra was the best option they've had given their pool. Again, why risk a semi-finals match over trying to frantically count a pocket pick, and potentially lose the entire series?

You're free to claim the Ashe pick was the deciding factor but put simply, both picks went hand in hand and relied heavily on each other to complement each other's strengths. If Ashe was banned instead of MF, I'd guarantee you that ROX would've picked a different support because there's no other available AD carries that would've enabled MF nearly as well as Ashe's long-range, long duration stun.

I felt the same way when Aurelion Sol was banned against CLG, but much less so because he was already considered a power pick / contested pick and was used by other teams as well. A ban on Sol did not look like an unusual ban. There were other examples as well. I don't think it really makes sense that a pro player can practice a non-meta non-OP pick and bring it out and win with it, only to have it mean nothing more than that - a win where the rest of the series is decided without that strategy in play because of a simple ban.

So why can't they just learn more pocket picks, instead of cheesing a win or two by learning one? I can easily put blame on ROX too for several things with false context. It's really not that difficult.

And players keep asking for more bans. This semifinal showed pretty clearly, there really aren't grossly OP picks in league. Sure, there are annoying picks and lane counters, etc... but when a pro team can sacrifice a ban on a champion that wasn't even expected to show up in that role at any level of play it shows that power picks really aren't a huge deal. Counterplay or solving how to beat a pick isn't a required skill either. All you need to do is ban the pick, and be able to win 3-0 when the strategy isn't active. Which obviously is still hard and shows why SKT is such a great team - but still I would have become an SKT fan if they let MF through again and showed they could adapt and beat it. They didn't - so frankly I'm a ROX fan after that match for being able to pull out the unexpected and make it almost carry them to the finals.

MF occupied one niche that only would've worked with Ashe, so it had nothing to do with how OP the pick was. Aside from that, Worlds has entirely been run by the same group of 20-30 champions, which shows that yes, there actually are simply better picks. Sure, most picks in League can work, but when you've got balanced based on generalists and not enough effort put into accentuating champions strengths and weaknesses, you get 5 champions who do the exact same thing, but only 2 worth playing because they do it more reliably. That's the majority of how Worlds has played out.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

I don't get why people need to push this notion that X top team banning Y top team's Z pocket pick, you know, because they want to win, makes them cowardly/not pro enough/not cool/not playing to their full potential/not adapting to the situation/whatever other excuse you want to pull, and you literally have to dump them with every possible onus you can think of in some weird attempt to shame them and question whether they're actually a top team.

Why would they pick some champion they've probably barely touched, just because ROX cheesed a few games off them, and expect it to just fit into their comp? Would you say the same on another barely used, even more specialized champion with a different playstyle/mechanic like Yorick or Heimer? They're in a semi-finals match with only 5 games to play. There is literally no reason to waste a game just to download what ROX would pick against support MF, if that's even a matchup they prepared for. Going back on the Zyra pick can easily be confidence on their part that they know what to expect having played Game 2, but when it failed a second time, there's literally no reason to risk a 3rd game. Hence, ban the pick and force ROX into a different strategy and pull them off of their momentum.

So you understand that worlds shouldn't be about cheesing a superior opponent, yet you literally advocate that these supposed superior opponents potentially continue to get cheesed by some stray, unaccounted for pick, in some of the most important games of the year. Wat?

Probably because pro players don't scour the boards of largely bronze-silver players trying to make attempts at talking about strategy. If you're going to mention 'legions of strategies', at least bother to point out a few examples, though Wolf's played a total of 4 champions, none of which can reliably outpoke MF with any guarantee. Zyra was the best option they've had given their pool. Again, why risk a semi-finals match over trying to frantically count a pocket pick, and potentially lose the entire series?

You're free to claim the Ashe pick was the deciding factor but put simply, both picks went hand in hand and relied heavily on each other to complement each other's strengths. If Ashe was banned instead of MF, I'd guarantee you that ROX would've picked a different support because there's no other available AD carries that would've enabled MF nearly as well as Ashe's long-range, long duration stun.

So why can't they just learn more pocket picks, instead of cheesing a win or two by learning one? I can easily put blame on ROX too for several things with false context. It's really not that difficult.

MF occupied one niche that only would've worked with Ashe, so it had nothing to do with how OP the pick was. Aside from that, Worlds has entirely been run by the same group of 20-30 champions, which shows that yes, there actually are simply better picks. Sure, most picks in League can work, but when you've got balanced based on generalists and not enough effort put into accentuating champions strengths and weaknesses, you get 5 champions who do the exact same thing, but only 2 worth playing because they do it more reliably. That's the majority of how Worlds has played out.

I wasn't meaning to dump on SKT. I was meaning to put out there that I was disappointed they couldn't beat the MF. I also was making satire of all the players clamoring for more bans - they're simply not necessary.

If you want strategies to beat MF+Ashe? Nami : survive the laning phase with heals, her ult disrupts MF's ult whenever Ashe lands an ult to start the combo, she has her bubble as well, she can return some poke. It would have been a decent shot.

Alistar + Ezreal or Caitlyn : Pick a support that can roam and make huge advantages on the rest of the map alongside an ADC that can play safe. Alistar will hugely outscale the MF support, and his ult can break the Ashe arrow stun. He's also been a strong pick throughout the rest of worlds, and brings a heal to help survive the poke. Not to mention Ashe and MF are both incredibly weak to ganks and Alistar has huge gank assist.

Bard : basically a combination of the reasons above: Bard can be an effective roamer to make things snowball elsewhere, and also has an ultimate that can deny MFs ultimate damage.

And yea, as I said in that paragraph where you say I'm contradicting myself: I understand WHY the ban is there and how it happens. I even understand why it's needed. That doesn't mean I can't dislike what it resulted in though. I'm just saying that players should be able to adapt. Yet the only adaptation we've seen from pro players is in the pick/ban phase. Ban out what beat you last time. It's not that it isn't a valid or even great strategy, just that it feels bad as a viewer. I WANTED to see SKT win AGAINST Miss Fortune (well, 1 game anyways). Not win by banning her. I mean, we're trying to put league as an eSport. In what professional sport can you ban an opponent's strategy or best player? I get that it's different - I'm just saying as a viewer it was a let down to what otherwise was an amazing series.

Rio Sanguino2 votes

You have a point, but I don't believe that the people clamoring for more bans are interested in that sort of thing. Theyre too concerned about champion diversity.

ValyrianBlade7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rio Sanguino,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=bXsGlugz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-22T14:28:47.608+0000)

You have a point, but I don't believe that the people clamoring for more bans are interested in that sort of thing. Theyre too concerned about champion diversity.

Right, but the whole point is that bans will never improve champion diversity - they'll only limit it.

I mean, there are 6 power picks banned, then a group of about 20 champions after that who see play.

If you increase the bans to 10, then you get about 16 champions left to see play. Maybe 1 or 2 new champions become viable with the extra bans.

Further, without the bans something diverse like, IDK, MF Support, sees play. Except it goes back to the same regular stuff when they just ban her out then.

Draqone2 votes

That's not exactly true. Thanks to the MF bans we actually got to see Nidalee and Jayce ingame - 2 champions which would not appear if not for the surprise pic.

Not to mention Bengi Nidalee was a surprise in itself.

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