Why do LCS teams constantly scrim each other?

Pippen The Short·May 16, 2017·4 votes·7,328 views

I guess, I kind of understand the reasons behind it, but at the same time it seems odd.

You don't see professional teams scrimming each other constantly in other sports. So why do you see it in League?

Echo Fox got boycotted by other teams as scrim partners and they went 4-4 in their matches during that time and looked very competitive even in losses, but immediately following teams starting to scrim Echo Fox again they tanked and only won 2 matches for the remainder of the split, going 2-8.

Does this structure of scrimming other pro teams as a means of "practice" contribute to their failure on the International stage?

15 Comments

Pippen The ShortMay 16, 20173 votes

2 down votes, zero comments. Sounds about right. Seriously, it's a question, how you can down vote a question is confusing. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

PhantomGGMay 17, 20172 votes

the big reason is the following two

1-No team practice tool mode has been made yet

2-Only korea has the structure to form proper training teams

1-No team practice tool In basketball, football, soccer, all sports, if a team wants to practice basic strategies or combos they will go onto the court and practice the situation out at least 50 times, however many times it takes them to get it right. For example let's say my basketball team wants to practice this strategy where I pass the ball in a certain way to player X, and X dribbles in a certain style to then make the shot. This is something I could easily practice and duplicate in a real life world. However in a virtual world, since no team practice mode has been created yet, this is impossible to do. This is a HUGE problem for all league teams, and I hope riot develops a proper practice tool meant for pro players and teams in the future

2-korea and training teams

The big reason pro teams practice among other pro teams, even if it means revealing strategical secrets, is because they have no choice. The average basketball team has like 40 something players, along with a training squad. Because of this they can constantly practice games against each other for hours upon hours. They are playing against high tier players at the highest level in their field and are getting quality practice. They don't need to "scrim" other teams, for they already have a team they can scrim against on their own court.

However very few teams can afford to have multiple training partners under their banner, and even when they do, it's very low quality practice. The difference between league and the NBA. is that the NBA has the top 200 or something players competing against eachother. while the NA lcs only has the top 50. MEANING that a NA LCS league player, is most likely better at league, than a pro basketball player is at basketball. (sorry if that sounds confusing) the standards to play in the NA LCS are much higher than they are for a basketball player to play in the NBA. In the NA LCS you can get fired simply for not being the best, not because you were bad, but simply because you weren't near perfect. Sounds pretty harsh right?

So even if a LCS team had a practice/training squad that they could scrim against, chances are, they would be much lower qualtiy then a LCS team, thus making low quality practice.

Just look at splyce, by forming an alliance with G2 in season 6 summer split, they went from a last place team, to a 3rd place team. Quality practice is important and it helps by a lot.

The reason top teams scrim so much is simply because their is no effective alternative ways to practice, vs real life sports where they have a huge list of ways where they can practice.

Pippen The ShortMay 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

the big reason is the following two

1-No team practice tool mode has been made yet

2-Only korea has the structure to form proper training teams

It's true that there is no "Team practice tool", but if the LCS teams got together and asked Riot for one I'm pretty sure we could get one. The basic building blocks are there, and if Riot and the LCS want to progress they're going to need one. So this is one of those things, that will happen sooner or later.

I think you overestimate the costs of what it would take to run a practice squad, and with a little bit of effort and organization you could form some practice squads that would be of a high enough level that it would be worth it.

Also, conflating market size to denote talent pool size is not a good argument. TSM has arguably the best laning phase team in the game right now, but we all know that they're garbage. Individual mechanics are not the end all be all of effective League of Legends play. The lost nature of the EU LCS and the NA LCS on the international stage proves that their individual play does not equate to top tier performances. If anything, it proves that there is room for trial and error to test theories on effective methods of practicing, strategy, or team mentality.

PhantomGGMay 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pippen The Short,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=atFZUHE1,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-05-17T22:05:26.501+0000)

It's true that there is no "Team practice tool", but if the LCS teams got together and asked Riot for one I'm pretty sure we could get one. The basic building blocks are there, and if Riot and the LCS want to progress they're going to need one. So this is one of those things, that will happen sooner or later.

I think you overestimate the costs of what it would take to run a practice squad, and with a little bit of effort and organization you could form some practice squads that would be of a high enough level that it would be worth it.

Also, conflating market size to denote talent pool size is not a good argument. TSM has arguably the best laning phase team in the game right now, but we all know that they're garbage. Individual mechanics are not the end all be all of effective League of Legends play. The lost nature of the EU LCS and the NA LCS on the international stage proves that their individual play does not equate to top tier performances. If anything, it proves that there is room for trial and error to test theories on effective methods of practicing, strategy, or team mentality.

A: They were begging for it for years, and still all we got is the present creation.

B: I'm not over estimating, they get paid more then you realize, you can be a full time practice/substitute for a team and make it by just fine. A lot of these owners don't yet have the money to throw that around yet. Also even when they can afford it it is often not worth it. The quality of practice you could get vs G2 vs lets say a team of your subs, would be a huge difference. Practice against G2 will normally beat your practice squad any day in terms of quality and what you learn.

C: it actually is a good argument, read point B.

Pippen The ShortMay 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

A: They were begging for it for years, and still all we got is the present creation.

B: I'm not over estimating, they get paid more then you realize, you can be a full time practice/substitute for a team and make it by just fine. A lot of these owners don't yet have the money to throw that around yet. Also even when they can afford it it is often not worth it. The quality of practice you could get vs G2 vs lets say a team of your subs, would be a huge difference. Practice against G2 will normally beat your practice squad any day in terms of quality and what you learn.

C: it actually is a good argument, read point B.

Do you know what the yearly pay for practice squad members for professional, major market sports is? Because I'm going to wager no. But, at the same time, sure you could make it by "just fine" but that doesn't mean doling out $100,000 a year per member of the practice squad, because that's not anywhere close to being realistic.

Quality of execution, in anything except maybe art, is an objective thing. You can judge how well you play on the basis of your play alone.

Also, comparing sheer numbers is not a good argument. There is no basis for the size of the talent pool of the LCS based solely on the number of available LCS roster spots. For example, Xmithie and Aphromoo are both ranked around the 500 mark on the NA server leaderboard. From that objective, numbers based perspective we could assume that the talent pool for the LCS is about 500 available players in the NA server alone. Now would we say that is true? Probably not, because there does not exist an available criteria for LCS play other than a subjective opinion of the managers and coaches that draft these players. However, from a simple points accumulation, climb the ladder, perspective there could be the argument that there are roughly 700 players in master and challenger that don't play on an LCS team, but could be considered LCS talent. Especially considering that C9 Ray, and some other LCS talent players aren't even above Diamond 1.

hotarseMay 18, 20172 votes

Yu posit an intriguing question. I believe the same thing happened at worlds with Albus Nox. No one scrimmed them before they got to worlds. First week, they shocked everyone. Then they got scims. Second week was not quite as amazing. Then they fell far down.

I imagine that S5's Cloud 9 probably had the same scenario happen to them.

The way I see it, smart teams benefit from scrims, and dumb ones benefit from not scrimming. A smart team will allow a pick they like to play against to prosper against them in a scrim, only to turn it around in LCS play. Say a team decided to try out a new champ in scrims. The team they play against knows they can deal with it easily, but decide to play poorly against that pick specifically, letting it get fed.

But... they make sure to practice and get the strats right and totally smash that unconventional pick come LCS games. Yeah, that's right... scrimming can throw teams off the scent of whats really strong and what isn't. I actually have a theory as to why certain teams made illogical picks during certain series, such as Huni's marksmen in the NA lcs semis and more recently Gold Coins strange debacle of a pick ban phase in relegation against TL (though that could have very well been collusion).

Personally, I think teams would benefit more from scrimming a B team and keeping their strats secret rather than scrimming other LCS teams.

I also am a proponent of a more sophisticated training tool that can set up late game scenarios for practice. This way, teams can more efficiently practice interesting strats and team comps, allowing for wider pool of champs picked in competitive play.

archerno1May 16, 20171 votes

Well international teams in football (real football) play friendly matches between each other before World/Euro championships.

Pippen The ShortMay 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well international teams in football (real football) play friendly matches between each other before World/Euro championships.

Yeah, but that's not practice, and at least in that scenario you might play a handful of games over the course of 3 or 4 months. Whereas LCS teams have a rotating scrim schedule with other LCS teams and may scrim the team multiple times a day, or a week at the very least.

Toa of DeathMay 16, 20171 votes

They need the practice and soloQ isn't good enough practice for playing on stage as they're two completely different environments. Scrims are a faster and easy way for teams to practice different strategies, different comps, go over what each player needs to improve on, and improve team synergy. LCS teams aren't the only ones who do this as well, all other regions and almost all teams at international events, like Worlds, scrim each other. It's also used as a way to scout opponents and see what they like to play and what they're good at. Scrims don't always help some teams but they're crucial for practice, I remember an interview with C9 Sneaky where he attributed C9's S4 Worlds performance to the Korean teams scrimming with them, while C9's S5 Worlds performance was stymied by the fact that not a lot of teams wanted to scrim them.

Pippen The ShortMay 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toa of Death,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=atFZUHE1,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-16T21:54:42.658+0000)

They need the practice and soloQ isn't good enough practice for playing on stage as they're two completely different environments. Scrims are a faster and easy way for teams to practice different strategies, different comps, go over what each player needs to improve on, and improve team synergy. LCS teams aren't the only ones who do this as well, all other regions and almost all teams at international events, like Worlds, scrim each other. It's also used as a way to scout opponents and see what they like to play and what they're good at. Scrims don't always help some teams but they're crucial for practice, I remember an interview with C9 Sneaky where he attributed C9's S4 Worlds performance to the Korean teams scrimming with them, while C9's S5 Worlds performance was stymied by the fact that not a lot of teams wanted to scrim them.

So, i see that as the reasons why.

But to counter that, it seems to me that you can't truly effectively practice a different strategy or lineup without revealing your game plan to your opponents, which I think is part of the reason we see a unison in strategy at the LCS level. Which is why I ask the question, at a low cost you could employ 2 or 3 practice squads of high elo players, that commit minimal amounts of time to you, you gain all of the same benefits for practice as you would scrimming other teams, but none of the risk of revealing too much strategy.

Which, I also understand carries some risk in closing yourself out, acceptable, proven strategies and you could lock yourself out of success. But for teams like eNVyUs, Liquid, and other lower tier teams struggling to find consistent success it seems like a no brainer to at least try something different.

xJLx MCHammerMay 16, 20171 votes

Because you are only good as your competitions

They try to play each other because they need a team that will attempt to do a similar strategy. You really can't improve if you don't play against people your level. Other sports, can get by people they have a bigger roster and can actually hone their skill by playing each other.

With that said, each player does play solo queue to keep up and improve their mechanical skills.

The LexerMay 16, 20171 votes

Well, because you can't actually practice certain plays in LoL like you can in other sports, having scrim partners allows you to experiment with different styles/matchups. Also, it allows teams to practice together against other coordinated teams instead of blind pick or ranked flex

Pippen The ShortMay 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lexer,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=atFZUHE1,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-05-16T23:54:50.723+0000)

Well, because you can't actually practice certain plays in LoL like you can in other sports, having scrim partners allows you to experiment with different styles/matchups. Also, it allows teams to practice together against other coordinated teams instead of blind pick or ranked flex

Right, but why do you have to do that with other LCS teams. Why not draft, or hire high elo players and build solid scrim teams within the organization so you can try new things without revealing strategy or pick patterns to other teams?

xJLx MCHammerMay 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pippen The Short,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=atFZUHE1,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-05-17T00:08:14.086+0000)

Right, but why do you have to do that with other LCS teams. Why not draft, or hire high elo players and build solid scrim teams within the organization so you can try new things without revealing strategy or pick patterns to other teams?

Because it costs more Other high elo players are usually with other teams regardless. You can usually get away with certain surprise picks once before people catch one. So it's not really worth it

For example, the lucian mid. The caster said, a lot of players have been playing it in solo queue. Where else can you actually practice a pick like that? So normally, nothing stays hidden for long. If these teams have to rely on non stop surprising picks to win, they probably aren't that good either.

Pippen The ShortMay 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=atFZUHE1,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-05-17T00:19:09.177+0000)

Because it costs more Other high elo players are usually with other teams regardless. You can usually get away with certain surprise picks once before people catch one. So it's not really worth it

"....Where else can you actually practice a pick like that? ...."

That would kind of be the purpose of developing an in organization scrim crew. To safe guard any weird things like that, which you could pull out once. But it wouldn't be a measure to protect only your potential picks. It keeps you unfamiliar, it lets you tweak strategy, especially with the practice mode now it seems that a practice squad is almost necessary for playing "Contest the Baron" endlessly for a day, and weird things like that. The benefits of being able to practice and develop strategy in a relatively anonymous setting I would think to be invaluable.

Which I feel certain you could find 10-15 Master+ players willing to devote 10-20 hours for good, but not insanely high, pay and time devoted towards bettering your team.