Ideal Rift Herald Usage in Pro Scene

woodvsmurph·Aug 12, 2017·1 votes·534 views

Remember how rift herald was so busted when it first came out? How it was a guaranteed 1.5 tower - more likely 2 or 3? The pros showed people how to deal with it - because they rotate lanes more and move quickly to objectives as well as better predict when and where pressure will be applied. Now herald is basically half a tower of damage in most pro games. But how can it get more? We simply have to look to the theory of split-pushing 4-1 with baron buff while your team takes an objective elsewhere. Ideally, you want to give your toplaner rift herald. You try to push up with said laner maybe 1 min - 30 sec before an objective like baron or drag spawns on the other side of the map. Once the enemy is shoved in, drop back out of vision and drop herald. This does one of two things. The first possibility is that you can tp into the teamfight around the objective and get a 5v4 for 3+ sec while the enemy toplaner deals with rift herald. The second possibility is that your opponent also tp's to make it a 5v5. In this scenario, the rift herald is all the way across the map with no way to stop it killing towers - meaning the enemy has to send someone back (and probably still lose one tower) and give you a 5v4 anyways or give you a solid 2 towers for free.

Been wondering why no team does this for awhile now. It's perfectly possible to pull off. Maybe, just maybe the playoffs or at least worlds will see something like this.

13 Comments

YambrinZAug 13, 20171 votes

A. Pro players "showing people how to deal with it" doesnt hold up. If that was the case everyone would be pro player caliber level. Because we should all be cs gods and trading in lane gods and etc. B. Pro game and what you play in solo queue are 2 completely different games. Literally. The ban phase isnt the same. The champions you see arent the same. And so on. C. EVERYTHING is "broken" for like 2 games until people understand how to play around it.

woodvsmurphAug 13, 20171 votes

Your point a... what the urf does it mean? It makes absolutely no sense nor has anything to do with what I said. And the rest of them while they can be valid points in a conversation, are like they are from an entirely different conversation.

GeminiRuneAug 13, 20171 votes

Your point a... what the urf does it mean? It makes absolutely no sense nor has anything to do with what I said.

I would assume that's stated because of this here:

The pros showed people how to deal with it - because they rotate lanes more and move quickly to objectives as well as better predict when and where pressure will be applied.

Nobody, especially in lower ladders, should expect 3 to 4 fellow strangers to play and operate on the same wavelength consistently game after game. His point A leads into point B for that matter; pros do it, but it cannot be perfectly imitated like so many players try at doing. Your Rift Herald discussion in general comes down to comparison and that's what the response of points aimed towards.

woodvsmurphAug 15, 20171 votes

His point a makes 0 sense. How does a pro showing people what SHOULD be done in a situation not hold up? That's like saying if a teacher tells you rainbows come from rain and sunlight interacting it isn't true for anyone except teachers. It makes 0 freaking sense. Maybe that's not what he is saying, but then fix the wording because that is how it is worded. Perhaps he MEANT to suggest that what we see in pro play cannot always be translated to non-pro play - especially at lower ranks. That is not what is said though. And while this is the case, people do split-pushing at all elo's. This is one VERY SIMPLE extra step that basically just requires the split-pusher with tp to drop herald before they tp to an objective (or don't tp if their team can win the 4v4 without them).

Secondly, it is perfectly simple and valid strat in pro play. And very likely to work in lower elo too since everyone runs to suicide for drag anyways half the games.

So again, the argument lacks clarity and also some logic.

BigBellBruteAug 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

His point a makes 0 sense. How does a pro showing people what SHOULD be done in a situation not hold up?

Because the average player doesn't communicate with his entire team over headsets, doesn't have zero ping and hasn't played with the same team over and over and over again in scrims for weeks.

ChompyWulfAug 13, 20171 votes

Your idea of spawning Herald the same time as a Baron or Drag attempt assumes a LOT. First that a Dragon will be spawning during the Eye being held. Second that the enemy team isn't pressuring any towers, Drag, or Baron themselves. Third, big assumption that the Baron bait or actual effort early on is possible and that your team won't suffer deaths for it.

Herald should be taken either by your best wave clear champ on your team to shove it down middle, or a solid split pusher. A tank top with Herald won't get as much mileage from it.

woodvsmurphAug 15, 20171 votes

Herald lasts a LONG time before you have to use it. LONG time. This means plenty of chances to hold it until a drag spawns and/or your team is powerful enough to force a dragon fight.
If you took herald with your toplaner involved, it is almost certain that your toplaner is winning the split-push/1v1 battle so they obviously have pushing power and damage to back it up; they are not some 0 damage tank.
If you took herald and the rest of your team is merely even in power with their opponents, you secure VISION control and BAIT objective - forcing the enemy team to facecheck and potentially getting a pick to open the 4v4. Even if you don't, you have tp play with your winning toplaner to make it either a 5v4 (while herald shoves other side of map vs enemy toplaner) or a 5v5 (with the stronger toplaner who has tp priority) while herald takes free towers on other side of map. There is nothing complex about this nor is it unlikely/impossible to pull off. If you don't just auto-spawn herald after taking it, you can almost guaranteed have it up for either baron or dragon. Obviously if you don't have a serious lead, you can't use it in a play on baron, but drag doesn't do THAT much damage to make such a play impossible even if your team isn't really ahead.

I rest my case.

ChompyWulfAug 16, 20171 votes

Heralds Eye lasts 4 minutes. Roughly the same cooldown as Teleport, and one minute less than the Dragon respawn timer. So yes, first, there is a possibility that you may not be able to do a split objective with summoned Herald and Drag. Second, you are still assuming very heavily that the enemy team is not fighting to keep vision, push objectives, or hunt the one with the Eye to prevent it being used offensively. You act as if getting Herald the enemy team is doing nothing and leaving your team free to do as you wish. Finally, if your idea is so fantastic, why isn't this being done by every pro team each time Herald is captured? Because your way sucks. Assuming Herald gets a weak tower downed upon one charge, she WILL be slowed greatly and have HP chipped down by a minion wave and would never do anything to another turret. If escorted by your team, you could get a tower, maybe two, and possibly force a fight on enemies defending tower, getting kills and plenty of free space for more objectives after.

BigBellBruteAug 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Heralds Eye lasts 4 minutes. Roughly the same cooldown as Teleport, and one minute less than the Dragon respawn timer. So yes, first, there is a possibility that you may not be able to do a split objective with summoned Herald and Drag.

And in addition to that, the herald often ends up as a consolation prize because the other team took drag.

woodvsmurphAug 17, 20171 votes

And how many times is it taken about 2-3 min before it goes back to the void? This leaves it alive for 1-2 min when baron is alive. If your team plans ahead, you can create a giant wave top the enemy must deal with while you create a push bot and then hide out of vision to drop herald. Force the enemy into a facecheck (or at least) teamfight around baron, and you either get a 5v4 till your opponent can clear herald from bot lane or you get free tower(s) bot and a 5v5 around baron. Based on past experience and how the enemy has behaved so far in the game, you can guess if you should pretend to start baron and wait for enemy to rush in and skip clearing the giant wave mid or top that you made and skip clearing herald bot or... if they will clear the giant wave and the herald - giving you time to: 1. create the same type of giant wave top or mid (whichever you hadn't done) and get tower damage or 2. rush down baron.

But of course the average player doesn't think about or notice these tendencies in other teams nor think ahead enough to plan such plays out. But in the pro scene, this is entirely possible.

woodvsmurphAug 17, 20171 votes

First off, I said I would like to see this done when possible (instead of teams insta-spawning it in a lane with 4 enemies to clear it). Obviously this kind of opportunity won't present itself EVERY match. It will come up some times though and teams should have that in mind so they don't waste it on much less than it is worth. Secondly, if they are sending 2 or 3 people to stop me using herald, my 4 teammates are getting a 4v3 or 4v2 tower push and possibly 2 or 3 easy kills for cost of 1 life. Meanwhile, my opponents can't tower dive me without letting herald run down my lane to hit their tower. Either they dive and kill me and let herald to about half a tower's hp (plus lose the fight in other lane and at least 1 tower) or they stop herald and I get to clear the wave and stall their 2v1 or 3v1 tower siege longer. Last time I checked, getting 3 for 2 in kills, getting at least half a tower lead, and securing an objective (because the enemy can't 1v3 stop team while 2 or their people are halfway across map having dove me and the other 2 are dead) is a GOOD trade. If they don't send multiple people, I have already explained how you get a winning trade out of that. Now given the current meta, it will most likely be 2 tanks top, which means less 1v1 pressure and you probably realistically get a 2 or 3 sec lead on tp or 1 tower advantage and equal tp timer to objective. But if it is a bruiser or carry toplaner, you can get more.

As to your "herald loses a ton of hp from 1 charge and will never do damage to a 2nd tower":

You have a massive minion wave you are pushing in - this will prevent herald from tanking damage from minions as it pushes to 2nd tower or mean your minion wave just keeps building up and will negate the loss of herald.
Herald loses maybe half it's hp to finish off first tower with charge. That leaves (thanks to point 1) approximately half it's hp to do a good chunk of damage to 2nd tower and let giant minion wave finish off said tower.
Obviously, the enemy can stay if they see this scenario happening, but that gives you a 5v4 for an extended time elsewhere on the map - long enough to win a fight and take an objective or two.

So nice argument, but it doesn't hold up.[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

ChompyWulfAug 17, 20171 votes

You keep writing out giant paragraphs that only expose how little you really pay attention to pro play. Pros rarely force an early Baron unless they manage a big lead and down outer towers in top and mid to gain vision control around the pit. A Baron at 23 minutes is pretty rare. If you can get Baron that early, it probably is because you were able to use Herald to get that lane clear and vision control.

You constantly assume your team has leads in every lane, or at least two lanes if you think your team will surely be able to control both side lanes to build minion waves freely, as well as be able to rush Baron.

You clearly don't understand Heralds aggro patterns and how it would be wasted if you spawned it under your own tower under siege.

Finally, the pros know what they are doing. They practice and play a LOT and IF your idea was at all viable, it would have been done by now. What you suggest is to use Herald as a one-shot crappy version of Zzrott Portal. Just give it up.

woodvsmurphAug 20, 20171 votes

You keep making invalid replies and claiming I have 0 knowledge of the pro scene without actually backing up your arguments with logic or stats. If big articles, large paragraphs and such are a sign of ignorance, tell that to every doctorate who has written a thesis paper. [zombie-nunu-bummed] For instance: there was at least one playoff game with a herald acquired by the team that had just taken drag - and got herald at 19min. In this case, the enemy team had a low damage tank... leaving them very vulnerable to just the sort of split-push, bait baron, drop herald to either get free tower in side lane or 5v4 baron fight for about 6 sec strategy I suggested in my original post. The team with herald was ahead enough that they DID do some baiting and forcing around baron at 20ish minutes. The perfect example of how setting up a 4v4 mid or top and dropping herald is a waste compared to what COULD be getting done in such a game. [slayer-jinx-catface] How is that for some hard evidence. Also, pro's don't know everything; they are constantly evolving and changing strategies, team comps, picks/bans, etc. Not just BETWEEN patches, but also within a patch. Sometimes the brightest ideas don't even come from pros. I could write a giant paragraph listing some examples, but from what you say, you probably wouldn't/couldn't read it and understand. Some people are simple minded and can't keep a thought in their head for such a long time. So I have tried keeping the paragraphs shorter for you.[slayer-jinx-wink]