2016 Challenger Series Qualifiers

Riot·Nov 24, 2015·3 votes·125,478 views

Amendment/update: We know there were concerns around the age limit for teams, with some 16-year-old players expecting to participate in the upcoming Challenger Series.

Our original change was designed to make the CS to LCS qualification process smoother by rewiring teams to be LCS eligible not just at playoff time (as previously) but for the whole CS split. Ultimately, this was too restrictive. We'll be moving to a middle ground where a good portion of a qualifying team would be able to move directly into the LCS if the team is promoted, but where younger players can also belong to an org and level up their skill in a structured environment.

To address this change immediately, we will be amending our 2016 ruleset to allow up to 2 starting players to be 16-years-old, and to extend their eligibility throughout both the regular season and playoffs. Any player who would be 17 by the start of the next LCS split doesn't count against the cap, so teams should have a lot more flexibility across their roster.

TL;DR: We’ll be making some changes to the way teams qualify into the Challenger Series for 2016 including Open Qualifier Tournaments and National Leagues within Europe.

Now that we’ve entered the offseason, there are some changes on the horizon for teams looking to earn a spot in the 2016 Challenger Series (CS). For CS Qualifiers, we’ll be moving away from Ranked Teams and introducing Qualification Tournaments to determine eligible teams.

What are the Qualification Tournaments?

Challenger Series Open Qualifier in NA and EU

For the 2016 Season, we’re moving away from Ranked Teams, and running an open tournament through League of Legends Battlegrounds to determine competing teams in the Challenger Series Qualifiers.

After sign-ups close for the Open Qualifier, all successfully enrolled teams will be drawn into a bracket to play for a spot at their region’s CS Qualifiers:

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National Leagues in EU

As part of this new season, we’re working with ESL Meisterschaft in Germany, ESL Mistrzostwa Polski in Poland, and LVP’s División de Honor in Spain to reward the winners of their national events with a place in the CS Qualifiers.

With the diversity of cultures and countries in Europe, this is a big step for more amateur teams to compete at a semi-professional level. By strengthening the path to pro within local countries, teams will be able to represent their nation and bring pride to fans that have followed their journey along the way. Successful teams will have a chance to represent their country in the Challenger Series, with the strongest potentially joining the LCS during the 2016 Summer Promotion tournament.

Why is CS now using Qualification Tournaments?

Previously, we’ve used the Ranked Team Ladder to directly pull teams from the NA, EUNE, and EUW servers into the CS Qualifiers bracket. While Ranked 5s had its benefits, the new Qualification Tournaments allows teams and players to be recruited based on the winning results of the tournament instead of Ranked Team ladder status.

What are the CS Qualifiers?

After the Open Qualifier and National Leagues in EU, teams advance to the CS Qualifiers to fight for a spot in the 2016 Spring Challenger Series. Here’s the format for the NA and EU CS Qualifiers:

North America:

2 lowest CS teams from 2015 Summer Split vs. top 2 teams from the NA CS Open Qualifier
5th Place CS team picks their opponent from the NA Open Qualifier

With a single source of potential Challenger teams, NA will rely on the Open Qualifier and will use a promotion tournament format that mirrors the NA LCS. The NA Qualifiers Finals will be Best of 5 and the winner of each Finals will secure a spot in the 2016 NA Challenger Series Spring Split.

Europe:

Teams:

2 lowest CS teams from 2015 CS Summer Split
3 National League winners
3 teams from the EU CS Open Qualifiers
- EUW & EUNE winners
- Winner of one-off match between the EUW/EUNE 2nd place seeds

Format:

Teams are split into two single-elimination brackets with four teams per bracket
Seeding into brackets is random, but each of the 2 CS teams, as well as the top team from EUW and EUNE, will be drawn into different brackets.

Below is an example of the EU CS Qualifiers with one of the randomized outcomes:

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The EU CS Qualifiers Bracket Stage matches will be a Best of 3 with the Finals being a Best of 5. The winners of each bracket will secure a spot in the 2016 EU Spring Challenger Series.

When does it all start?

Qualification Tournaments

The Open Qualifier for NA and EU will take place on December 10-18 and January 4-10.

The EU National Leagues conclude on:

LVP - December 6
ESL DE - December 6
ESL PL - October 4

CS Qualifiers

CS Qualifiers will take place on January 12-20.

How do I participate and sign-up for the CS Qualification Tournaments?

For information on the eligibility, sign-up information, and schedule of the National Leagues in Europe, visit the following sites for:

For the Open Qualifier, visit League of Legends Battlegrounds. Sign-ups will be open for a week from December 1 - 8.

We’ll share more information about the Open Qualifier registration and eligibility information on November 30, but individual players must:

Hold an active Solo Queue ranking of at least Diamond 3 to participate in the tournament
Anyone under the age of 18-years-old must have signed permission from a legal guardian to participate in the tournament. The eligibility form will be released when sign-ups start.

In addition to these rules, teams who become eligible to participate in the CS Qualifiers will be required to join or form organizations capable of meeting all the expectations and responsibilities of an LCS team. Throughout the season and playoffs, teams can play with up to 2 starting players who won't be 17 by the start of the next LCS split, but they must have turned 16 by the day of their first CS match. Players who will turn 17 by the start of the next LCS split won't count against that cap. Teams are also required to be compliant with the Interregional Movement Policy.

Will there be more changes coming to Challenger? How about changes to the format?

We’ll share more information about upcoming changes, full schedule, and format for the new season of the Challenger Series and LCS in December.

40 Comments

Ale non è maleNov 24, 20153 votes

Why are the changes kicking off from Spring and not from Summer? Don't you think this is going to screw orgs that invested lot of energies in S5 summer on grinding ladder 5 like Enigma or k1ck did? And why some countries orgs/players are going to have an automatic entry in CS and others will not and will have to fight through Open Qualifier? Why Spain and Germany yes, but France, Uk, Italy no?

This new system is kinda meh, imho, if not even completely disappointing

I am RCANov 24, 20153 votes

How does a team from NA sign up for tournaments?

BAGTimNov 29, 20153 votes

Isn't this very unfair towards teams that don't come from Spain, Germany or Poland? While they need to win the open qualifier tournament, thus be among the best in europe, teams from Spain, Germany and Poland can just "relax a bit" and only need to be the best of their country to be able to participate. Not only is this unfair towards teams from the rest of europe, this will also mean that less skilled teams are going to participate in the qualifiers for CS. This is not only unfair by the way, it is also discrimination on nationality, which for as far as i know is still forbidden in europe.... All in all, it would be best to only look at international stage instead of national, since the best teams from europe will then participate instead of the best teams from Spain, Germany and Poland. Leading to a higher skilled CS in the end.

TrollFan01Nov 24, 20152 votes

Good on Riot putting more effort into trying to help the CS grow.

Ale non è maleNov 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Good on Riot putting more effort into trying to help the CS grow.

Grow? This won't help CS scene to grow...at least not in EU, in EU this will be really bad CS scene will take a big hit in EU because far less orgs will have serious chances to enter CS through qualifiers, as it will be super hard for the orgs of the countries that does not have a guaranteed spot to go through the Open Qualifier

This is positive only for NA, because yeah, actually there is no challenger scene whatsoever, but this is bad for EU

TrollFan01Nov 24, 20151 votes

NA has a CS and a lot of former LCS players are there. Same thing for EU. EU only has an extra round to play, that's not too bad.

Ale non è maleNov 24, 20152 votes

Please, NA competitive scene is pratically non existent outside of Riot organized tournaments Check on lolpedia or esportspedia the number of tournaments made in EU and the number of tournaments made in NA throughout the season (and those lists don't even account for a lot of local national tournaments at major game/comics expos) NA has literaly made 2-3 tournaments between challenger teams in the entire season, and in those tournaments the rosters were mostly made by former washed up LCS players, CS gatekeepers and "ringers", some soloQ streamer/freak that won't turn pro That's literaly the reason why few young talent come up from NA

For NA the Open Qualifiers are probably good because will force/ encourage players to build challenger teams/orgs that literaly don't exist in NA scene now For EU this is a shame because you are reducing hugely the number of teams that can aspire to reach CS, given how the qualifier will be stacked up with powerful orgs, while before you had multiple spots available

TrollFan01Nov 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=aEvVjYEu,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-24T22:49:34.606+0000)

Please, NA competitive scene is pratically non existent outside of Riot organized tournaments Check on lolpedia or esportspedia the number of tournaments made in EU and the number of tournaments made in NA throughout the season (and those lists don't even account for a lot of local national tournaments at major game/comics expos) NA has literaly made 2-3 tournaments between challenger teams in the entire season, and in those tournaments the rosters were mostly made by former washed up LCS players, CS gatekeepers and "ringers", some soloQ streamer/freak that won't turn pro That's literaly the reason why few young talent come up from NA

For NA the Open Qualifiers are probably good because will force/ encourage players to build challenger teams/orgs that literaly don't exist in NA scene now For EU this is a shame because you are reducing hugely the number of teams that can aspire to reach CS, given how the qualifier will be stacked up with powerful orgs, while before you had multiple spots available

NA had a few challenger tournaments this year and one is still going on ATM and not all of them are former LCS players. Not lying, NA does need more tournaments and this could be Riot noticing that. Question for you though. What do you mean by soloQ "freak"?

Ale non è maleNov 25, 20151 votes

NA had only HTC Ascension as relevant challenger tournament + a pair of online tournaments ran by Wazabi under the name of League One in 2015 and a small NACL event back in 2014 december

This is the tournament list all around the world, see how much were held in EU (and some are misssing)

http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/ESportspedia:Tournaments

That's why I tell you NA competitive scene is pratically non existent, not only in comparison with EU but also in comparison with even lesser regions

SoloQ freaks guys like fabyyyy which is/was considered "the gatekeeper" (in his wiki page is explained why) and similia

TrollFan01Nov 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=aEvVjYEu,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-25T00:07:52.122+0000)

NA had only HTC Ascension as relevant challenger tournament + a pair of online tournaments ran by Wazabi under the name of League One in 2015 and a small NACL event back in 2014 december

This is the tournament list all around the world, see how much were held in EU (and some are misssing)

http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/ESportspedia:Tournaments

That's why I tell you NA competitive scene is pratically non existent, not only in comparison with EU but also in comparison with even lesser regions

SoloQ freaks guys like fabyyyy which is/was considered "the gatekeeper" (in his wiki page is explained why) and similia

I know you're right about the NA tournament shortage but I hope what Riot did this year will carry-over to next year and get more torneys.

You said gatekeeper already so I wasn't sure what you meant. I thought meant Nightblue or something. You meant Fabyyy and Only Jaximus and so on.

Ale non è maleNov 25, 20151 votes

But how what Riot did can carry over next year? Literaly, unless they ran multiple tournaments, they can't do more that ran theirself the Qualifier

The minor esports NA org and comics/videogame shows has to move and invest in the scene if they want it to expands, it is not up to Riot to carry over dead weight waiting for some big investor to come, buy a LCS spot and import some named star player picking what is remained of the rubble of what is remained in the scene

I meant gatekeepers as guys who regularly plays in CS bu have shown to not not good enough to go beyond like Hard, ShorterAce, Chau, xPecake and similia

TrollFan01Nov 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=aEvVjYEu,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-25T09:17:35.092+0000)

But how what Riot did can carry over next year? Literaly, unless they ran multiple tournaments, they can't do more that ran theirself the Qualifier

The minor esports NA org and comics/videogame shows has to move and invest in the scene if they want it to expands, it is not up to Riot to carry over dead weight waiting for some big investor to come, buy a LCS spot and import some named star player picking what is remained of the rubble of what is remained in the scene

I meant gatekeepers as guys who regularly plays in CS bu have shown to not not good enough to go beyond like Hard, ShorterAce, Chau, xPecake and similia

Riot could end up making more challenger tournaments we'll have to wait and see.

Oh yeah and a few others. Stixxay was there but he may end up getting into the LCS after his showing at IEM San Jose recently.

Ale non è maleNov 26, 20151 votes

Riot directly manages in NA not only CS/LCS but also NACC, and now they'll run also the Open Qualifier which is a kinda big investment of energy and resources It's not like they are doing little to promote tournaments scene there, pls It is just that NA competitive scene does 0 investments as time/energy/money/everything at the bottom of the chain and the results reflects at the top of the chain when you don't have enough valid players that get to CS/LCS and so you got to imports tons of players and fill out with mediocre NA players the remaining spots In NA investors pretend to put resources and invest only at the very top of the chain, but you are not going to get better if the underwood is not developed at all. OQ is decent to good format in NA context where there is actually no competitige underwood and could be a motivation to push it to developp, but in EU this environment yet exist and you are just putting orgs in trouble with the overall reduction of spots available and its allocation through national leagues

P.S. Stixxay hasn't been really long in CS scene, and he hit various bumps in the road that slowed him down due to his and his team behaviour, I don't think he was a CS gatekeeper yet, he would have become if he would have stayed another split or two in CS, which doesn't seem to be the case anymore given that he should be CLG starting ADC for the future and he should perform decent in LCS to remain there beyond his stint in CLG

TrollFan01Nov 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=aEvVjYEu,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-26T10:22:37.512+0000)

Riot directly manages in NA not only CS/LCS but also NACC, and now they'll run also the Open Qualifier which is a kinda big investment of energy and resources It's not like they are doing little to promote tournaments scene there, pls It is just that NA competitive scene does 0 investments as time/energy/money/everything at the bottom of the chain and the results reflects at the top of the chain when you don't have enough valid players that get to CS/LCS and so you got to imports tons of players and fill out with mediocre NA players the remaining spots In NA investors pretend to put resources and invest only at the very top of the chain, but you are not going to get better if the underwood is not developed at all. OQ is decent to good format in NA context where there is actually no competitige underwood and could be a motivation to push it to developp, but in EU this environment yet exist and you are just putting orgs in trouble with the overall reduction of spots available and its allocation through national leagues

P.S. Stixxay hasn't been really long in CS scene, and he hit various bumps in the road that slowed him down due to his and his team behaviour, I don't think he was a CS gatekeeper yet, he would have become if he would have stayed another split or two in CS, which doesn't seem to be the case anymore given that he should be CLG starting ADC for the future and he should perform decent in LCS to remain there beyond his stint in CLG

The mediocre LCS players will eventually lose their spots. Team Coast were like that till they lost of Complexity Black and then the lesser teams started losing their spots more often. Still, more tournaments can help the mediocre players get better.

Wasn't Stixxay banned recently by doing something stupid on his own? What do you think of CS teams that earned their way into the LCS but then their org drops them and gives their spots to other players?

Ale non è maleNov 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The mediocre LCS players will eventually lose their spots.

Kiwikid and Crumbz are mediocre from what, S3 Summer Split? And they are still there in NA LCS They are probably going to lose seome spots where some of the actually non-resident will become resident and will free a spot for further imports (or some challenger team non-resident become resident like Shrimp) The reason why they haven't lost their spot yet, is because there has been little to no talent coming up from minor teams, because, let's face it, there have been few to none challenger ladder teams not made mostly by former CS/LCS player that was worth something in NA history And that is barely Riot's fault, as they have always tried to push NA scene...it is just, NA scene expect almost everything to be given, instead of earning it. NA expects to have a competitive scene that breed talent when they HAVE to build that scene Would be enought hat the major comic/videogames expo promotes their own relevant local LOL tournament to do that, imagine an expo circuit, for example in South Atlantic region, where 3-4 smaller expos make an agreement to promote LAN tournament during their shows (with online qualifiers and such and final games on live stage), and then they make a grand final LAN tournaments at a bigger expo like MegaCon with the winner of the various local stages + some team qualified from online qualifiers + some challenger teams (ladder 5 or CS teams) invited or teams with the highest circuit point that haven't won a stage...THAT would promote an underwood gaming scene capable to replace mediocre LCS talent with home made talent But NA has to do the first step

Wasn't Stixxay banned recently by doing something stupid on his own? What do you think of CS teams that earned their way into the LCS but then their org drops them and gives their spots to other players?

Yeah he was. And that's why his effective playing time at that level isn't as long as someone argue to be. He is yet on the stage of his career where he can grow as a player, and it is looking like he is slowly but steadily doing it

About the CS teams issue (I think you are referring to NRG-Coast), I yet talked about it in other threads, the key issue by the way is that, imho, it's that is not much a matter about if they keep those players or not, but these NA either way orgs should build their rosters based on NA best available talent, and then fill out with imports, which is the contrary of which NRG did in their situation, where they get the import stars first and then they filled out with mediocre NA players Doing like NRG did, you are promoting bad to mediocre NA players that have the luck to play in those spots not covered by imports and being at that moment available, while you are screwing up capable NA players that were just unlucky to play in those roles where NA team import players, and this is going to really discourage and frustrate possible Na talent - basically Pekin played better than KonKwon in Coast or Moon in Imagine, but Konkwon and Moon got promoted on a team capable to be at least mid tier in NA because NRG built their team around the star KR midlaner that needed to fill jungle and support position, while Pekin got screwed and bumped back in CS despite deserving a chance on the big stage -

TrollFan01Nov 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=aEvVjYEu,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-27T09:36:05.937+0000)

Kiwikid and Crumbz are mediocre from what, S3 Summer Split? And they are still there in NA LCS They are probably going to lose seome spots where some of the actually non-resident will become resident and will free a spot for further imports (or some challenger team non-resident become resident like Shrimp) The reason why they haven't lost their spot yet, is because there has been little to no talent coming up from minor teams, because, let's face it, there have been few to none challenger ladder teams not made mostly by former CS/LCS player that was worth something in NA history And that is barely Riot's fault, as they have always tried to push NA scene...it is just, NA scene expect almost everything to be given, instead of earning it. NA expects to have a competitive scene that breed talent when they HAVE to build that scene Would be enought hat the major comic/videogames expo promotes their own relevant local LOL tournament to do that, imagine an expo circuit, for example in South Atlantic region, where 3-4 smaller expos make an agreement to promote LAN tournament during their shows (with online qualifiers and such and final games on live stage), and then they make a grand final LAN tournaments at a bigger expo like MegaCon with the winner of the various local stages + some team qualified from online qualifiers + some challenger teams (ladder 5 or CS teams) invited or teams with the highest circuit point that haven't won a stage...THAT would promote an underwood gaming scene capable to replace mediocre LCS talent with home made talent But NA has to do the first step

Yeah he was. And that's why his effective playing time at that level isn't as long as someone argue to be. He is yet on the stage of his career where he can grow as a player, and it is looking like he is slowly but steadily doing it

About the CS teams issue (I think you are referring to NRG-Coast), I yet talked about it in other threads, the key issue by the way is that, imho, it's that is not much a matter about if they keep those players or not, but these NA either way orgs should build their rosters based on NA best available talent, and then fill out with imports, which is the contrary of which NRG did in their situation, where they get the import stars first and then they filled out with mediocre NA players Doing like NRG did, you are promoting bad to mediocre NA players that have the luck to play in those spots not covered by imports and being at that moment available, while you are screwing up capable NA players that were just unlucky to play in those roles where NA team import players, and this is going to really discourage and frustrate possible Na talent - basically Pekin played better than KonKwon in Coast or Moon in Imagine, but Konkwon and Moon got promoted on a team capable to be at least mid tier in NA because NRG built their team around the star KR midlaner that needed to fill jungle and support position, while Pekin got screwed and bumped back in CS despite deserving a chance on the big stage -

Crumbz left and came back with a new team. Kiwikid just has zero luck but he is a better support than top laner. A few CS teams have beaten the LCS opponents placed in front of them (not counting LMQ) with Complexity Black being the best example as they were genuinely better in that series. Pr0lly was the only pro on that team. Some CS teams do end up beating the LCS teams but it's not often and it could happen more often if there was more competition.

Good on Stixxay for growing and being in the right place at the right time and being incredibly lucky.

I wasn't talking about NRG/CST but in general. CST replacing Rhux and Gldenglue for those Korean players Miracle and Ringer is more to what I meant. The NRG/CST thing is moot to me since the players contracts expired the same day the new roster was announced. Their obligation was done and the org chose not to renew their services. Open and shut deal to me. I think we can agree 100% on that.

It's too bad NRG couldn't keep Shrimp as he's better than Moon but at least KonKwon got to stay. Probably to help translate. Perkin got screwed though. NRG could have at least kept Perkin as a sub for mid which wouldn't be a bad idea in case of visa issues.

Ale non è maleNov 28, 20151 votes

Crumbz left Dignitas after 3 straight split where he was costantly regressing and was starting to look as bottom tier NALCS jungler, he was on the verge of retiring, then teamed up with another washed-up former EU star (at that point he had yet failed promotions when he was with NiP against UoL in EU CS with NiP that was heavy favourite) , an "LCS ringer" and a pair of CS caliber players (one with questionable potential according to the ones that follow closely NA soloQ/scene) and went on to dominate NACS summer

Kiwikid is bottom tier NALCS support from S3 Summer and still isn't even the worst that will actually play in S6 spring NALCS (I honestly think he is at least better than KonKwon, and we don't know if some team with an unannounced roster will field worse supports than him)

You keep mentioning Col.Black, without mentioning that they beat Team Coast to gain their LCS spot (a team with a non good LCS record and non very good roster historically) and that they immediately got relegated in the subsequent split, then failing completely in 2015 Expansion tournament to regain an LCS spot...and that Col roster that qualified for LCS definitvely wasn't a team full of fresh talent, as Westrice was a pro that attended S1 Worlds with Epik and Season 2 NA circuit and, Brokenshard was in DragonBorn roster that qualified for the S3 Spring (first split of LCS) ever through Season 3 Europe Offline Qualifiers before becoming the coach of the team and then leave it to then fail 2014 EU LCS Spring Promotion, so it's not true at all that pr=lly was the only pro in that team

NA has definitively an history of producing little amount and low quality of fresh talent in his challenger scenes (soloQ and ranked 5s), and yeah, I think we can agree that it is because the competitive scene below CS level is almost on existent

I don't think Stixxay has been "incredibly lucky", just that CLG is one of the teams in NA that has invested the most in CS scene and developping new talent (Link came from CLG Black, zuna, sycho Sid and Bloodwater have played as a pro for Vulcun even if they haven't been super good) and decided that it was worth to give to one of these guys they have trained a chance. He has talent to be not a star, but to be a decent LCS player, we'll see

That CST Korean players situation you are mentioning is by the way very similar to what NRG did to CST roster they acquired. Just scre up local talent to prioritize imports with the result of dealying and frustrate local talents while prioritizing mediocre local players (in that casa mash and Sheep, and the funniest thing is that in the end goldenglue had a better 2015 than mash/Sheep given how goldenglue was capable to help Team 8 avoid relegation in summer)

TrollFan01Nov 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=aEvVjYEu,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-28T11:58:51.313+0000)

Crumbz left Dignitas after 3 straight split where he was costantly regressing and was starting to look as bottom tier NALCS jungler, he was on the verge of retiring, then teamed up with another washed-up former EU star (at that point he had yet failed promotions when he was with NiP against UoL in EU CS with NiP that was heavy favourite) , an "LCS ringer" and a pair of CS caliber players (one with questionable potential according to the ones that follow closely NA soloQ/scene) and went on to dominate NACS summer

Kiwikid is bottom tier NALCS support from S3 Summer and still isn't even the worst that will actually play in S6 spring NALCS (I honestly think he is at least better than KonKwon, and we don't know if some team with an unannounced roster will field worse supports than him)

You keep mentioning Col.Black, without mentioning that they beat Team Coast to gain their LCS spot (a team with a non good LCS record and non very good roster historically) and that they immediately got relegated in the subsequent split, then failing completely in 2015 Expansion tournament to regain an LCS spot...and that Col roster that qualified for LCS definitvely wasn't a team full of fresh talent, as Westrice was a pro that attended S1 Worlds with Epik and Season 2 NA circuit and, Brokenshard was in DragonBorn roster that qualified for the S3 Spring (first split of LCS) ever through Season 3 Europe Offline Qualifiers before becoming the coach of the team and then leave it to then fail 2014 EU LCS Spring Promotion, so it's not true at all that pr=lly was the only pro in that team

NA has definitively an history of producing little amount and low quality of fresh talent in his challenger scenes (soloQ and ranked 5s), and yeah, I think we can agree that it is because the competitive scene below CS level is almost on existent

I don't think Stixxay has been "incredibly lucky", just that CLG is one of the teams in NA that has invested the most in CS scene and developping new talent (Link came from CLG Black, zuna, sycho Sid and Bloodwater have played as a pro for Vulcun even if they haven't been super good) and decided that it was worth to give to one of these guys they have trained a chance. He has talent to be not a star, but to be a decent LCS player, we'll see

That CST Korean players situation you are mentioning is by the way very similar to what NRG did to CST roster they acquired. Just scre up local talent to prioritize imports with the result of dealying and frustrate local talents while prioritizing mediocre local players (in that casa mash and Sheep, and the funniest thing is that in the end goldenglue had a better 2015 than mash/Sheep given how goldenglue was capable to help Team 8 avoid relegation in summer)

Crumbzz left DIG after 4 1/2 splits. He stayed ont ill early Spring this year. Kiwkid only became a support last year in the Spring. Alex Itch on NIP isn't as cut and dry as you think. Remember, Nukeduck and Mithy got banned shortly (a few days) before that match against UOL so we can't say too much there. We could assume NIP would win as they beat UOL in both the quarter finals of the CS series 1 and 2 in 2-0 sweeps.

Team Coast were the 6th place team in Spring in both round robin and playoffs. Not the best but they did take games off of bigger opponents. Brokenshard was on a shit team on Dragonborns and almost no one remembered Westrice by that point. Complexity failed int he expansion tournament because they broke the team up into Col.B and Col. White for some reason.

I meant Stixxay was incredibly lucky because he was in the right place at the right time and showed up.

Actually the thing with CST and the Koreans Miracle and Ringer and what happened with NRG is different. With the Koreans they were replacing players (Rhux and Goldenglue) who were still there and under contract and thus no reason why they shouldn't play. With NRG the players contracts expired and the org chose not to renew them. I still the logic there and understand it. With replacing the 2 players with soloq Koreans I did not. The NRG thing is "clean" so to speak so I don't see the outrage this time around.

PS Do you want me to add you to my chat so we can talk about this while logged in instead of talking here?

Ale non è maleNov 29, 2015

Crumbzz seemed like a top tier NA jungler only in his first LCS Split, after that he only seemed regressing till he left after 3 split when he was becoming a bottom iter jungler Kiwikid changed role because he was bad even for NA top laners, and that summarizes a lot of the evolution of his career Alex Ich even with Nukeduck/Mithy suspended still had a team that was heavy favourite to get to LCS- - I mean, they showed up in those playoffs they lost vs UOL with a roster made of Cabo/loulex/Alex Ich/Freeze/Voidle - . As mid laner, also, Alex aas yet declining as he originally was supposed to play top with Nip having Nukeduck as mid, so even him acknowledge that These guys that were starting to become washed-up in their career were able to team up and take NACS by storm, and, before the huge infusion of cash that recently Na received that shaked up a bit the situation through imports, they were projected to be a top team (and they could still pretty well be next split)

This is the situation with new talent in NA, there has been very little talent coming up and beating the estabilished talent, just a reharsh of the previous talent pool barring little exception. That col. Black team that beat Team Coast had 3 estabilished pros...in the next expansion tournament when they didn't have a similar amount of pros they failed despite retaining 1 pro + the bot lane duo of the team that beat the Team Coast one in the previous tournament

Stixxay has been given a chance to show up because CLG has historically invested on young players. If you don't give these chances, no new talentcan show up. These chances in NA scene do not exist because there are very very few tournament before getting to CS level. Young players can't show up in competitive tournaments against other competitive teams of young talented player because those simply don't exist in NA scene. That is were the problem lies, you can't complain that you have no talent when young talent have no opportunities to show up, and then people come out saying "yeah, but we have a small player base, e-sports is not taken seriously here, guys don't go e-sports career because money/university/whatever, etc..." and stuff like those, because othter regions have similar situations but more talent (EU and even LMS)

The situation of CST ringers and NRG is clearly different, but they have a core aspect in common. Those orgs rewarded mediocre NA talent and screwed up good NA talent because they builded the rosters for those competitions they had to face prioritizing the import talent NRG could have EASILY renewed Pekin contract instead of KonKwon one. There was obviously no economic problem for them as they have spent tons of money to build their actual roster, and there wasn't the risk to losing him to a bigger org as the top orgs were yet settled on the mid lane They CHOOSED to not do it so, BECAUSE they went for the imported players first, and then rounded up with NA players, they didn't do the other way around - assemble the best possible core of NA players and then fill out with best available imports - They prized Moon and KonKwon and screwed up Pekin this way. And if you screw up your good talent and reward the mediocre one because they just happen to play in the roles that fill the one of the imported players, you are frustrating the growth of your young talent

P.S. You are NA and I'm EUW, we can't talk in in-game chat, sry XD

Ale non è maleNov 29, 2015

P.S. You are NA and I'm EUW, we can't talk in in-game chat, sry XD

TrollFan01Dec 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=aEvVjYEu,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2015-11-29T12:47:41.753+0000)

Crumbzz seemed like a top tier NA jungler only in his first LCS Split, after that he only seemed regressing till he left after 3 split when he was becoming a bottom iter jungler Kiwikid changed role because he was bad even for NA top laners, and that summarizes a lot of the evolution of his career Alex Ich even with Nukeduck/Mithy suspended still had a team that was heavy favourite to get to LCS- - I mean, they showed up in those playoffs they lost vs UOL with a roster made of Cabo/loulex/Alex Ich/Freeze/Voidle - . As mid laner, also, Alex aas yet declining as he originally was supposed to play top with Nip having Nukeduck as mid, so even him acknowledge that These guys that were starting to become washed-up in their career were able to team up and take NACS by storm, and, before the huge infusion of cash that recently Na received that shaked up a bit the situation through imports, they were projected to be a top team (and they could still pretty well be next split)

This is the situation with new talent in NA, there has been very little talent coming up and beating the estabilished talent, just a reharsh of the previous talent pool barring little exception. That col. Black team that beat Team Coast had 3 estabilished pros...in the next expansion tournament when they didn't have a similar amount of pros they failed despite retaining 1 pro + the bot lane duo of the team that beat the Team Coast one in the previous tournament

Stixxay has been given a chance to show up because CLG has historically invested on young players. If you don't give these chances, no new talentcan show up. These chances in NA scene do not exist because there are very very few tournament before getting to CS level. Young players can't show up in competitive tournaments against other competitive teams of young talented player because those simply don't exist in NA scene. That is were the problem lies, you can't complain that you have no talent when young talent have no opportunities to show up, and then people come out saying "yeah, but we have a small player base, e-sports is not taken seriously here, guys don't go e-sports career because money/university/whatever, etc..." and stuff like those, because othter regions have similar situations but more talent (EU and even LMS)

The situation of CST ringers and NRG is clearly different, but they have a core aspect in common. Those orgs rewarded mediocre NA talent and screwed up good NA talent because they builded the rosters for those competitions they had to face prioritizing the import talent NRG could have EASILY renewed Pekin contract instead of KonKwon one. There was obviously no economic problem for them as they have spent tons of money to build their actual roster, and there wasn't the risk to losing him to a bigger org as the top orgs were yet settled on the mid lane They CHOOSED to not do it so, BECAUSE they went for the imported players first, and then rounded up with NA players, they didn't do the other way around - assemble the best possible core of NA players and then fill out with best available imports - They prized Moon and KonKwon and screwed up Pekin this way. And if you screw up your good talent and reward the mediocre one because they just happen to play in the roles that fill the one of the imported players, you are frustrating the growth of your young talent

P.S. You are NA and I'm EUW, we can't talk in in-game chat, sry XD

You're discounting how much time Alex had with the newer players. The bans came a few days before the promos so no matte rhow good they were they had 0 time to build synergy and new comps. You can go back and watch those games and see how disorganized NIP was during that best of 5.

All these teams that take a spot with pros or former pros is them ALWAYS bring in someone NEW. They count even if they're basically a package deal. CoL.B had a new bot lane and then a new jungler in Kez. CST had Shrimp, KonKwon, and Perkin Wolf. Misfits have RF Legendary and Remeilia. And so on. The new auto-promote means more new players will make it in. Enemy had all new players except for Innox.

We've covered how few tournaments there are for the CS so drop it already. Jeez how many times do we have to keep going there? You made the point clear and I made my point on Riot possibly making more next season clear. Can we move on?! Sorry but damn you mention it every single time and I keep saying the next season COULD fix it. It just feels like we're going in circles and it's a bit annoying.

GBM is better than Perkin Wolf but they SHOULD have kept him for a sub in case of the visa issues that ALWAYS come up. Getting Shrimp would have been a good idea too as he speaks Korean as well. The imports are safer bets and you want to make a good return on your investment plus the NA scene is in a bit of a state of flux with so many orgs selling their spots. Right now only the top 4 teams (TSM, CLG, C9, and TL) are safe and stable, but everyone else is up in the air. DIG is fine too just recently selling their EU team. They're not a top team though. Not anymore :(

Oh yeah, you are in EUW. I had not noticed that lol. There's like 0 salt in everything you say XD

dthomashNov 25, 20152 votes

I don't like how there are two separate brackets to determine the two teams that enter the Challenger Series. A double elimination bracket similar to the Expansion Tournament would likely be better. Since the teams that make it to the Challenger Series are presumably going to be there for a while, it would be better to make sure that you have the best two teams. With two separate brackets both teams could get stuck in the same bracket. Having a double elimination bracket would prevent that problem as the winner of the winner's bracket and the winner of the loser's bracket would be the two teams to advance to the Challenger Series.

GENERAL IR0HNov 24, 20151 votes

Frist

ApariaNov 24, 20151 votes

does this apply to NA too? you seem to say both regions will have this new format, but we have no information about NA.

Ale non è maleNov 24, 20151 votes

Have you read the article?

North America:

2 lowest CS teams from 2015 Summer Split vs. top 2 teams from the NA CS Open Qualifier 5th Place CS team picks their opponent from the NA Open Qualifier

With a single source of potential Challenger teams, NA will rely on the Open Qualifier and will use a promotion tournament format that mirrors the NA LCS. The NA Qualifiers Finals will be Best of 5 and the winner of each Finals will secure a spot in the 2016 NA Challenger Series Spring Split.

HalfAnOreoNov 25, 20151 votes

No more win trading god bless ritoooo

FlemmanNov 25, 20151 votes

why do spain, germany and poland can play in both battleground and the national spot, isn't this a bit unfair to nation who can only go in battleground?

BAGTimNov 29, 20151 votes

BravohMar 14, 20161 votes

Why are there only 6 teams in challenger? Your not growing the sport, your preventing it from growing.

Not only are there no incentives for teams to play ranked other then bragging rights, your only choosing from a pool of what, 12 teams from each region as "The Top Teams" that deserve to compete. You have to look at what previous leagues have done to grow the leagues and you are not doing that.

For instance, you log into CEVO or ESEA and check out their pages. You will see that there are several divisions, with each division having fewer teams then the rest. Here you guys only have 2 divions, Invite and Premier. With instead of having more teams, with more players to choose from, you have 6.

You have a brand new plant and instead of taking it out of the pot to let it grow, your just gonna leave it in there and let it die.

BravohMar 14, 20161 votes

And btw, the prize pool % payouts are very cheap on ur part. Didnt you make 1billion dollers last year.

BAGTimNov 29, 2015