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Time for TSM to Shake up Their Roster

Womp123··28 votes·2,965 views

As a TSM fan, I am PISSED. I remember watching TSM at worlds last year, right after their dominant 17-P1 summer split. I was like "WOO TSM GONNA DO SOMETHING FOR NA!!!" They go 2-1 in first week, not bad. They go 1-2 week 2 and lost the tiebreaker to RNG. Now it is this year, Worlds 2017, TSM have same roster, win NA finals 3 times in a row, I'm thinking "Ok, this year we will at least get to quarterfinals right?" They go 2-1 week 1, not bad, though a loss to Misfits is concerning. They go 1-3 week 2, but this time THEY HAD A TIEBREAKER CHANCE. And they play like crap, and they lose. TSM goes home. So, with all that, I think their are a few glaring concerns that need to be addressed this offseason for TSM:

  1. GET RID OF SVENSKEREN Sven is done. He always underperforms in the regular split, shows up at playoffs, and makes it a 4v5 at Worlds. HE DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. When I watched the games for week 2, I see a draft that gives a losing bot lane, somewhat snowball top lane, and a safe mid lane. This puts pressure on Sven to make plays and keep the bot lane from getting smashed. But what happens. TSM BOT LANE GETS SMASHED BY ENEMY JGER, AND SVEN JUST WALKS AROUND FARMING AND DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR THE GAME. This happened last year at worlds too. TSM bot lane gets smashed, enemy bot lane snowballs HARD, gg. It's time we got someone like Contractz, Xmithie, SOMEONE who will actually do something in the jg role.

  2. Doublelift... I don't think he is as bad as people say. His problem? Getting caught out, and Sven. When his jger is doing nothing to help him, he has to play so safe cuz he knows the enemy jger is gonna dive him and Bio and get their bot lane fed. And that's what happens. I can't criticize Doublelift too much, because he knows how to carry once he gets out of the laning phase. The problem is, once the teamfighting phase happens, the enemy bot lane is already 2 items ahead because Sven offers 0 presence.

  3. Draft needs to prioritize Bjergsen and Biofrost. Obviously Bjerg is a big time player, but it never shows up at worlds. Why? His champion selection is always a safe control mage. People were saying Bjerg is only MVP cuz he presses R on Syndra. Bullcrap. Bjerg is MVP because his fundamentals are the best in NA. However, the champions he is forced to play at worlds don't allow for him to shine. Put him on a Zed. Put him on a Leblanc. Put him on a Fizz. He knows how to win lane, he knows how to roam and make plays for his team. SET HIM UP TO SUCCEED. At the same time, STOP PUTTING BIODADDY ON A CRAPPY SUPPORT. Lulu is crap. Biofrost is known for his Thresh, Braum, Rakan. Those r playmaking supports (even Braum can be). Let Bio carry his lane and help Doublelift out. He might be a younger player, but he sure has heck plays fantastically when he has the playmaking role. Give it to him.

  4. STOP PLAYING THE META Holy crap TSM, you are the most boring team to watch. Predictable, standard, by-the-book drafts. What does this mean? The enemy team already knows exactly what TSM will do, and will completely smash them in the early game. And guess what? That's what happened. In every. Single. Game. TSM ranked last in Firstbloods, turrets, and gold difference @ 15. Gee I wonder why. Maybe it's because you pick the EXACT SAME PLAYSTYLE FOR EVERY GAME. This is WORLDS. Wake up, adjust your playstyle, adjust your drafts, try something crazy. Stop playing the same crap over and over again.

TLDR: Get rid of Sven, place the game in the hands of Bjergsen and Biofrost, vary the draft phase, and give Doublelift some help. Thanks for reading -Womp (a pissed off TSM fan)[sg-shisa]

37 Comments

sky blower7 votes

Double is not doing good. He tries to be proactive and that is punished hard by the enemy jungler. However, I like this over Sven's reactiveness. At least he is trying to make plays. Although the plays sometimes are questionable. He is doing something. If he is a top laner or jungler, his play will be what saves TSM the game. Sven is like a farming bot the entire series. He make plays sometimes, but they are ineffective. Ganking op while Hauntzer has no mana. Letting enemy jungler smash bot without any sort of reaction of counter-play. And when they are in a disadvantage, they got nervous, they tried to play not to lose. So much for all those mental stability back in LCS.

Tasty Burrito5 votes

TSM is a team which you would call "Meta Slaves"

IncrediPhiLL4 votes

Doublelift has got to go. He’s not serious about the team or the game. I’d ditch him before Sven.

There are several more talented jgs out there than Sven. TSM can use one.

Bjerg’s playstyle is outdated. The team can’t draft around him because he can’t carry his team. He’s proven that the past 3 seasons!

Nik Nikerson1 votes

{quoted}

Doublelift has got to go. He’s not serious about the team or the game. I’d ditch him before Sven.

There are several more talented jgs out there than Sven. TSM can use one.

Bjerg’s playstyle is outdated. The team can’t draft around him because he can’t carry his team. He’s proven that the past 3 seasons!

I think part of the problem was the meta at worlds. They could probably do better than Doublelift, but there are clearly worse ADCs out there. I just don't think you want to put all the focus on him. And the meta at worlds has been completely dominated by ADCs. The teams that look the best right now are the teams with the ADCs that are performing the best. I just don't know that Doublelift is capable of being the centerpiece of the team. At this point in his career, I think he's more a role-player than a focal point. Which ultimately ends up screwing you in a meta that requires your ADC to be able to take over. If this had been a meta that allowed you to focus your resources into mid or top, I think it would have been possible to win with Doublelift.

Sven is clearly a role-player, not a build around piece. Again, they could probably upgrade, but I don't think its impossible to win with him either.

Bjerg was fine. I have to criticize some of the champion choices (although I am kind of critical of a lot of the character choices for the team in general), but mechanically he was fine. You just can't afford to draft around him because the meta is so focused on bot lane.

I honestly look at coaching as a big problem. The team makes adjustments at the pace of a speeding glacier. Their drafts are... questionable, and they absolutely refused to deviate from a plan that had clear, and exploitable weaknesses. If you know that a team is looking to pressure you early (which every team did against them in week two), you have to have some sort of plan to counter it. Their answer was to stick Hauntzer on a champ that requires a strong early game, and without which, becomes a liability, and then play the rest of the game exactly the same.

AbiwonKenabi4 votes

I thought this was going to be nothing but negative complaining, but I think you hit the nail on the head. As someone who has followed TSM since S2, I think it's about time for them to start showing that NA isn't garbage like everybody thinks they are. This is probably their best squad yet (Hauntzer tried so hard to put the team on his back, Biofrost is amazing, DL is still playing for a reason, Bjerg literally outlanes EVERYONE) and they still haven't lived up to expectations.

Better luck next year I guess. I will be rooting for C9 at least, they have a decent chance against WE. [sg-soraka]

TheSingularity4 votes

For a team the popularized the global ult composition and forced every champion in that comp to be nerfed, my my have they fallen rock bottom.

I want that team back, the team that brings things to pro play b4 any1 else does, a team that innovates, not a pathetic copy of korean tactics.

MysterQ3 votes

Wrong.

Literally, LITERALLY. All TSM needs to do to get out of groups is.... lose the NA title. Go to the gauntlet. I am not being like C( is better, no hear me out.

TSM has stage paralysis. They always win NA (it is meaningless now). They have this perfect record, so they don't want to break it. So when they get on a new stage, they don't go in trying to win. They go into trying to not embarrass or break their record. And the result is terrible play that doesn't work. They are absolutely strong, they will crush the gauntlet no contest, but doing that will take a lot of these "expectations" that they and fans put on them. They will come in as fighters and challengers instead of someone trying to maintain their perfect record top 10 player bjerg, top 20 DL.

Like literally, just lose to break this stigma they have.

If you are on a winstreak, do you get nervous? Not everyone does, but I know I do. I would play better if I was not on a winstreak where I stupidly want to keep this record up. Instead of playing to win, playing to keep the streak is stupid.

GForce9x3 votes

TSM are sadly the Dallas Cowboys of the NALCS. They always make it to worlds(playoffs), often winning the split(division), but get knocked out in the first round. Yet with all of their shortcomings on the big stage, they remain the most popular team and most people either love them or hate them. It's gotten to the point where most people know they won't make it all the way, but keep holding out and hoping that "this year will be the year".

I love TSM and it hurt me to make that comparison, but it's what it's become IMO.

R0XTAR3 votes

This is the truest shit I've ever read on the boards, no matter how much I don't want to agree.

Doublelift is fine, its the jungler and the draft phase that screw them over every game. I agree they're completely predictable and I didn't even bother watching a few of the games just by watching champ select... so sad.

BigBellBrute3 votes

Did i post that Xmithie is available?

Xmithie is available.

So is Cody if DL retires.

RedeemedCollin2 votes

Sven....as much as I like him yea he needs to be replaced. he wouldnt be so bad if he didnt try to carry games. let Bjerg and DL carry. imo:Bjerg is the NA version of Faker (I know I just made every single skt fan mad for even saying someone is 1/1000th as good as Faker) but Bjerg has probably one of the best Mid Laners in Pro Play in general. as for Biofrost (my fav pro player) he needs to stay away from Lulu. when I watched him I cant remember the game he played but he constantly got hit by the EQ from Jayce. he just needs to learn to play the buddy system at all times. on top of that DL is holding him back. I feel like if any new ADC steps up to be in TSM they may actually go to Quarter Finals. Hauntzer is probably the only person on their team I have 0 problems with,granted hes on his own little Island but still.

DarkRooster1 votes

I think something is very wrong with attitude in organization TSM. It turns even godly level players to crap. What was Bjergsen at the start and what he is now is just sad, same about Doublelift, same about pretty much everyone that was, are and will be in TSM.

xJLx MCHammer2 votes

Okay I feel like you made a seriously thought out post so I will reply

  1. Svenskeren played fine. I don't think he was the major problem at worlds. If you look at this NA split this year, he played similarly as he did now. He tends to be a supportive jungler, which is what TSM wanted. They don't want or need a carry jungler. They needed someone to help snowball the lanes that they normally win. Bjerg rarely loses in mid. The only people that can beat or surpass him are Froggen and Jensen. Haunt too, he always does good in lane in NA. For Sven, the job is always, ward up, counter jungle, invade, and gank the lanes that are already winning. At worlds, that's not the same story. Bjerg was being our roamed, losing in lane, and picking bad match up. Same with bot and top.

2.Doublelift... He played bad. There is no excuse. I understand getting dove is bad but he had questionable flashes, use of twitch's stealth. He was losing match he should have or was expected to win

3.Draft needs to prioritize Bjergsen and Biofrost. Not in a ADC meta. Its clear why you have to go Ardent Censor. Janna, Lulu, or Rakan. For Bjerg, I think they just gave him Ryze too many times. Syndra, Ori, Corki were available plenty of times

Rocnation982 votes

Even Taliyah would have been better than Ryze in some situations.

  • melts frontline
  • melts backline if out of position
  • solid roams
  • great waveclear I think she just better but doesnt take as long to come online as Ryze. Did i mention that this is a targeted ban against longzhu when the pick ryze top.
Croanin2 votes

I don't think a roster change will help. More of an infrastructure change. It's time to put some blame on Bjerg also, he's the shotcaller and the most common denominator in the roster, and they only made it out of groups in S4, when their group was a joke, a lame WC team and SK was missing their roster, and they never beat the top seed.

TSM is just slow to adapt, always have been. The meta is literally shifting during Worlds, and even at home, TSM falter when there is a big patch and meta change. They have a great analysis staff, to get them back on track. In Worlds, they don't have time for that crap.

SobeDragon2 votes

I dont see the players being the problem. At all. You have had the same Coach for years, and every worlds event, they pick horrifingly bad team comps. Their team is underprepared, and nervous. They play sheltered and Unsure of themselves.

Its the coaching. Just like in sports, Coaches determine the plays. They determine it by watching video and film and analyzing it. They then determine things like "ward placement". "Gank times". "Champions to play". "Champion Select Strategies". Then they coach their teams up on what they are expected to do. Then they are expected to talk to each other during the game, look for mistakes or weaknesses of the enemy. Have strategies for their exploitation.

The first 5 to 10 minutes of a game, you should know what your strategy is, based on your composition, their composition, and video that you have watched of these teams. Longzhu has a goddamn Breakdown video BREAKING DOWN HOW Jayce VS Chogath WORKS. They literally did ZERO things from that video. They didn't even TRY. It was literally a clinic on "this is how to break Chogath."

If over 3 years, with multiple junglers, and multiple players. You achieve the same results. And you have the same Coaching staff. What does that tell you?

Serika Zero1 votes

actually, tsm had a different coach last year (some asian looking guy that this year coached a different na team). so, you are quite wrong. They didn't have the same coach for the past 3 years

also, quite often, both players and the coaches decide together what to play. Its not just the coach. But from what you can see about tsm is that their mid is scared to make big plays and always go for something safe And to be fair, look at their top laner, he tried to make the big plays and picked a strong pick in the early game (jayce), and lost. And now everyone critisize him for playing jayce that game. So, ofc tsm's mid laner is never going to choose risky picks ever, or make risky plays. He is to scared of the backlash.

MysterQ1 votes

I think.. you are wrong. The dude Parth literally said, I failed last year because inexperience, I failed this year no excuse.

EsoEs1 votes

{quoted}

I dont see the players being the problem. At all. You have had the same Coach for years, and every worlds event, they pick horrifingly bad team comps. Their team is underprepared, and nervous. They play sheltered and Unsure of themselves.

Its the coaching. Just like in sports, Coaches determine the plays. They determine it by watching video and film and analyzing it. They then determine things like "ward placement". "Gank times". "Champions to play". "Champion Select Strategies". Then they coach their teams up on what they are expected to do. Then they are expected to talk to each other during the game, look for mistakes or weaknesses of the enemy. Have strategies for their exploitation.

The first 5 to 10 minutes of a game, you should know what your strategy is, based on your composition, their composition, and video that you have watched of these teams. Longzhu has a goddamn Breakdown video BREAKING DOWN HOW Jayce VS Chogath WORKS. They literally did ZERO things from that video. They didn't even TRY. It was literally a clinic on "this is how to break Chogath."

If over 3 years, with multiple junglers, and multiple players. You achieve the same results. And you have the same Coaching staff. What does that tell you?

I couldn't agree with you more. Coaches need to understand not only the meta, but how their players fit into it. I think putting Bio on ArdentCensor only supports is a MAJOR disadvantage for TSM, but it isn't like there aren't ways around this (Nidalee jungle comes to mind)

Beyond that, while Sven certainly didn't look very good as far as his choices of where/when to pressure, a LOT of that has to come down to coaching. It's not like Sven is a bad player, he just needs a coach who can help him adapt his pathing and understanding of where he needs to be on the map. Not to mention, the coach drafts a Top which NEEDS jungle attention, while simultaneously drafting a losing bot. Pretty hard to be both of those places all the time...

People talk about how the players are afraid to lose, and thus don't ever win, and I think the same can be said, and to an even greater degree of their coach. Parth literally took 0 risks in draft phase, drafted the same "play safe and win late" comp over and over and over. Give your carries the champions to carry on!!! Not just trade cs for 20 minutes while slowly bleeding objectives and kills.

Nothing personal, but its time for the coach to go. The same thing can be said of any sport, when a team underperforms, you don't get rid of your star talent, you get rid of the person mismanaging that talent.

Drynin2 votes

So having just finished watching all the TSM games at worlds, I want to reply to this with a breakdown assessment of each player on the team.

TL;DR - Sven is problematic, Bjerg needs to branch out, Hauntzer needs to not be forced into stuff he’s uncomfortable with, and Doublelift and Biofrost got shafted by their team at Worlds, but still played amazingly. Sven should probably go, Hauntzer needs to prove he deserves to stay, Bjerg needs to get his head out of his ass, and people need to stop hating on Doublelift and see where he is actually really strong.

——————

Hauntzer - In general, he had decent potential, but he definitely struggled at worlds this year, and I think this is partially from them prioritizing those late scaling champs for him. We get it, TSM, you like the late-game, Team fighting comps, and while these were meta for a long while this season, the other teams in Worlds intentionally shook those up. Hauntzer’s problem here is that he so often likes playing aggressively, and he’s good at it when he has a champion in lane that can do that, but how many times did they give him Cho’Gath? And how many times did the enemy teams punish them for that? When he was on Gnar, he was amazing, even when he was counterpicked into a Yasuo, he still performed exceptionally, but they kept going back to Cho, and he just seems especially clueless as to what to do on that champion with no mobility. (Did anyone else notice that team fight against Flash Wolves where TSM’s mid inhibitor turret is being seized for about 2 minutes and Hauntzer is busy taking Krug camp?)

Svenskeren - This is where I’m sad, because I really liked Sven as a jungler during the season. He was pro-active, consistent and a wonderful play-maker.

None of that was here during this Worlds season, and part of that was he seemed lost whenever enemies were invading him and counter-juggling him. He would play jarvan and get invaded by a Sej, and then walk away while the Sej ganked his bot lane. At the very least, when this happens, isn’t the first rule of the jungler to try and make a play somewhere else if you can’t help bot lane? But he wouldn’t even do that. He’d just go farm another camp and then back. This is Jarvan we’re talking about too. How do you play Jarvan as a jungler and make no attempt to gank or assist your team before level 5?

On top of that, watch his positioning in some of those games. There were seriously times I wanted to scream at the screen, “Why are you walking that way? I’m a Silver pleb and I know better than that.” Cases I’m referring to here are he just sees the enemy jungler gank his bot lane (red side) and then he goes and tries to farm the Gromp. WHAT! THE! HELL!? The unfortunate thing is at the beginning of Group Stages, he did perform very well, with that methodical pathing and watching for openings, but once his opponents were savvy to his strategy there, they tried to mess with it, and it effectively screwed with his head space and caused him to flounder. I hate to say it, but you just can’t have a player like that in a competitive environment. Hauntzer either needs to look into working on his ability to adjust to the game, or TSM need to remove him.

Bjergsen - Lots of mixed feelings here, so I’m going to say this right now that I’m a huge Bjergsen fan. But I will also say that much of the criticism of him is not entirely unwarranted. I think he did have a bad habit of going to comfort picks like Syndra and Ryze just because they were comfortable, but I think the big thing to remember about Bjerg is that what he does better than any other NA Mid laner is punish mistakes. Seriously watch some of his predictive Syndra stuns. It’s kind of amazing. But come Worlds with the best of the best, and suddenly those mistakes are going to be even fewer than there were in just NA pro-scene.

Now, when it came to the team fights, he still shined, as that is both his and TSM’s strength in the long run: Team Fighting. Unfortunately, again, in the later games, his opponents became savvy to this and prioritized him to get him shut down, and this is where there’s some problems. While I don’t think Bjerg has bad positioning, I think he is relying a lot on some protection from his tanks (Hauntzer and Sven) who again, were not providing that role for their carries. I’m not sure how to feel on this, because on the one hand, he should be able to count on them, but on the other, he shouldn’t be doing things too risky, and there were definitely a couple team fights I saw where the enemies engaged when he was isolated, sometimes with just Doublelift and Biofrost, and their tanks are off away from their carries. Whose fault is this situation, if the carries are trying to get their poke on the enemies, but to do that, they have to move away from their tanks because their tanks are not in the proper spot to do their job of protecting (and I realize tanks have more of a job than that, but that’s a side point here). I think it was Misfits who had a Gaga’s engage on those three at the river bush, with Hauntzer nearby, but still about 700 units away from his carries, and Sven was busying killing the scuttle crab. That kind of situation is just unacceptable, and Bjerg and Double know better, but I can’t put all the blame on them for that.

Doublelift and Biofrost - I’m going to lump these two together because a lot of what I have to say involves primarily the drafting for them and what they allow for their opponents, because here’s the big thing. TSM at Worlds this year almost NEVER made bans with these two in mind, and this is an ADC/Ardent Censor Meta over anything else. Why!? Why would you do that to your biggest lane of import? Doublelift and Biofrost are both really aggressive players, and while that can get them punished, it’s also really effective when it works, and they can make it work well, so they needed more support in the bans for this. Every time I saw them let Janna go through with bans, they prioritized Lulu over her, let the enemies get super safe Janna, and still tried to play super aggressive and lost. But they still didn’t really lose super hard, they just couldn’t do anything because THEY HAD NO SUPPORT! And this is support from say their jungler, or their roaming mid laner (Another notch against Bjerg, he does not roam well or often. He needs to fix that). And occasionally they tried to give them a passive, defensive lane with the intent to scale for late, but even then, they just got bullied hard. I honestly don’t know what the solution to this should be. Doublelift and Biofrost, I think, got pretty heavily handicapped by the shot-calling of bans, roams and TP’s from the rest of their team, and I honestly feel they made the best of what they were given. While people say Doublelift has that tendency to get caught out because he was too aggressive, or had bad positioning, he has corrected that IMMENSELY this season, and honestly at Worlds, I saw those problems coming out more from Hauntzer and Bjerg than I did from Doublelift. And then Biofrost. He likes making plays, so why do they keep giving him Lulu? She’s seriously one of the most passive supports I’ve seen. Even Janna has more potential to make some plays with her Ult. Lulu doesn’t have that. She has the polymorph, some harrass, and pretty much everything else is a “Please don’t die!” Button. Nami also a champion they gave to Biofrost who has similar issues. Why? I don’t care if Censer is strong, give him the damn Thresh or Alistar. Hell, I really wish he had tried learning the Taric. I think he would be phenomenal on that champion. Censer user, who’s also tanky and can set-up plays? It’s everything Bio should want.

Ugh, this was just so frustrating to watch. So much was squandered for comfort when they got to worlds, and I think they got complacent after their first 2 wins. The big thing is TSM is bad at adapting and changing their strategies, and when you’re playing against the best of the best, it’s going to be easy for opponents to spot the weaknesses in your armor when you do the same things over and over again. This is ultimately what TSM needs to look at for Season 8, so I hope they do good at modifying their training to illuminate this.

arans2 votes

Such a stupid ass thread by retarded TSM fans. The real problem with that team is their coach by far.

KawaiiShroom1 votes

The coach messed up a lot of the drafts though. That Jayce top lane against a tank [sg-ahri-1]

MysterQ9 votes

That same Jayce toplane destroyed two tanks in other groups.

KawaiiShroom4 votes

Those other Jayce had junglers camping for them to make sure they get ahead. Haunzer was not set up for success rip

Croanin9 votes

{quoted}

Those other Jayce had junglers camping for them to make sure they get ahead. Haunzer was not set up for success rip

Yea people are giving Hauntzer shit. But he dodged the first few ganks well. Better then Dyrus ever would have for sure, the guy couldn't smell a gank to save his life. He didn't have the support, he did what he could overall.

MysterQ2 votes

I agree. I didn't like Haunzter going into worlds, thought he was cocky. But he played up to it, the only person on TSM that actually looked good. (Bio is hard to judge).

Ale non è male2 votes

{quoted}

Yea people are giving Hauntzer shit. But he dodged the first few ganks well. Better then Dyrus ever would have for sure, the guy couldn't smell a gank to save his life. He didn't have the support, he did what he could overall.

Nah, Hauntzer did very very poorly in that game vs MSF that sealed the deal for TSM Dyrus would have done MUCH better in not getting behind before Sven could actually move top. Sven went for the invade and camp stealing as game plan early game, Maxlore went for the shutting down jayce game plan, and by then at min 3 Jayce got caught in the gank because he got greedy to keep Cho'Gath away from the wave and as result had to flash away and back up because he was low health before Sven could barely do his own red and heading towards raptors to get his usual farm after stealing MSF blue and gromp and doing rift scuttler to set up vision in the river for Hauntzer.

After Sven compete the clear in his jungle and back, he goes top at 5 min but Hauntzer, while being basically even in CS, is pushing the lane towards MSf tower and has no mana so no way Sven can dive a full health Cho'Gath with a lvl4 Sejuani and with the back-up of a no mana Jayce, then he goes to do Rift scuttler again to give Jayce vision, but meantime Jayce back get stopped and Alphari pressure Hauntzer, so he returns in top river brush but by the time they decide to dive Cho'Gath, Maxlore was yet heading top to go for the pressured Jayce and so he save Cho'Gath (that has to spend the flash anyway) from the 3 man gank (because Bjergsen decide to roam top with Ryze when he hit 6 and get ulti), with Ch'Gath losing basically 0 farm as result of the gank since Hauntzer had to back any way (he has no mana and has to do 1st real buy) and actually being able to being even after backing up and returning BY WALKING in lane in the Ch'Gath vs Jayce match-up

At this point TSM is fucked because they have lost top lane since at MINUTE 9 CHO'GATH WAS AHEAD OF JAYCE IN FARM and MSf has a ocean drake too. Sven was set up by TSM to protect the Jayce (at minute 9 he still keep putting wards in top MSF jungle without having showed yet in other lanes, and 30 sec later engage Maxlore to near Gromp and force him to blow flash back under top tower) but the Jayce failed spectacularly and Sven had no impact till that point because the other lanes were basicallly even since junglers basically were never there to interfere with the leaning phase

Sven was outjungled by Maxlore being slow (as well as the entire team was) in reacting to MSf and getting surprised by them, but in the tie-breaker game the worst player on TSM was EASILY Hauntzer that fucked up TSM game plan

Melvear2 votes

That lane was played in the LCK as you probably know and Jayce needs to be very aggressive to deny Chogath of farm and experience. To do so, he needs his jungler to be active with him and gank repeatedly. Again, watch Longzhu vs SKT or the feature Zirene did about that game. Both jungler and mid laner sacrificed farm and experience to get Jayce vastly ahead of Huni.

Sure, Sven gave Hauntzer vision in the river, but vision was not what was required. And if Sven's gameplan was to counterjungle and farm, then that was a poor plan to begin with. What's more, Ryze should not have been a priority pick with a top lane you want to snowball. Rift Walk is great for mid to late game when you can use it to out-rotate the other team and get objectives uncontested but for gank assist, Taalyah would have been better. The travel distance is longer, the travel time is shorter and it creates impassable terrain, meaning no flash=no way out.

Overall, I think TSM just half assed their comp and the strategy to go with it and they got destroyed because of it.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

That lane was played in the LCK as you probably know and Jayce needs to be very aggressive to deny Chogath of farm and experience. To do so, he needs his jungler to be active with him and gank repeatedly. Again, watch Longzhu vs SKT or the feature Zirene did about that game. Both jungler and mid laner sacrificed farm and experience to get Jayce vastly ahead of Huni.

You need a superb top laner performance to play the Jayce vs Cho. And someone who can get ahead of his adversary in lane. You can't have someone that in the very first gank he receive fuck it up Hauntzer is not that much better than Alphari (probably isn't better at all), to pull out a Jayce, if he could at least save flash or was not forced to back, Jayce could have continued the pressure and try to win, but flash down and with the forced back, Cho'Gath immediately caught up and from that point onward never gave Hauntzer an opening, espeically because when Sven went top to try to get the first revenge gank at 5 min he could just not do it with the lane pushed towards Cho'Gath tower AND Jayce having no mana and flash down

There IS a reason why NA Jayce just do not work and is a emem at this point, just like NA Rengar was in the past

Sure, Sven gave Hauntzer vision in the river, but vision was not what was required. And if Sven's gameplan was to counterjungle and farm, then that was a poor plan to begin with. What's more, Ryze should not have been a priority pick with a top lane you want to snowball. Rift Walk is great for mid to late game when you can use it to out-rotate the other team and get objectives uncontested but for gank assist, Taalyah would have been better. The travel distance is longer, the travel time is shorter and it creates impassable terrain, meaning no flash=no way out.

Overall, I think TSM just half assed their comp and the strategy to go with it and they got destroyed because of it.

Sven couldn't do much more at that point. He had to set up vision to avoid further MSF ganks and eventually enable a TSM gank top, a thing that happened but didn't work (3 man gank top when Ryze hit 6) I think his and TSM mistake was just not giving it up on Jayce and tell Hauntzer to go full Dyrus, to redirect Sven AND Bjergsen attention to bot lane and try to get at least the Kog'Maw ahead, they kept Sven running around when it was useless to doing it so and Bjerg remained in lane so they ended up doing nothing around the entire map

TSM went for the protect the Kog comp (Sejuani-Kog-Karma first 3 picks, and Karma was because Lulu, Rakan and Janna were banned), the problem is that they fucked up badly the moment when they left open Cho'Gath and tried to bait MSF into getting the "losing" Jayce vs Cho'Gath match-up...and they didn't understood that MSF were super happy with having that, since they believed Hauntzer was not capable to snowball on the Jayce to the point of make the pick worth To play the protect the Kog comp, Ryze is FAR better than Kassadin or Taliyah (much more tankier than both later while still dishing out a relevant amount of DPS), so they effectively got the comp they wanted, the problem is that MSF won way earlier the point where TSM comp was going to be competitive because Hauntzer fucked up completely the early game (first 5 minutes were a disaster)

TSM baited and outsmarted theirself, when they should have really gone for the Cassiopeia (that they did ban fearing PoE Cassio) or the Cho'Gath as 4th pick and counterpick top/mid with the final pick

MysterQ1 votes

Dude survived many gank attempts. While Sven never even once visited top at a relevant time.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

Dude survived many gank attempts. While Sven never even once visited top at a relevant time.

"At a relevant time". Moving goalposts? Are we going from "Sven was never top" to "Sven was never top at a relevant time?"

Sven was not playing well, but Hauntzer was easily the worst member of TSM that game, his first 10 minutes were terrible

MysterQ1 votes

I initially type ever top.

But I think, MAYBE there was one time that Sven came to lane after Haunzter was already dead. So I didn't want to take away all credit, at least Sven maybe tried to go top once.

Or it could have been a different game. Because Sven was camping those lane bushes between turrets pretty hard.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

I initially type ever top.

But I think, MAYBE there was one time that Sven came to lane after Haunzter was already dead. So I didn't want to take away all credit, at least Sven maybe tried to go top once.

Or it could have been a different game. Because Sven was camping those lane bushes between turrets pretty hard.

Rewatch first 10 minutes of the game. Sven was always top/around top in MSF jungle and river to give support top or alternatively farming as he need it on a tank jungler. He didn't show up in other lanes to focus top (while MSF sensed it and got a quick ocean drake for free beacuse of that TSM jungle focus) I have honestly never seen a guy focusing so much in killing rift scutler in a competitive early game to give his top laner vision like Sven did The problem is Hauntzer did non-stop, incessant, mistakes in lane management even if you want to discard and not count his fuck up in the first MSF gank (you got to give credit to Maxlore for his pathing, but Hauntzer couldn't dodge Cho knockout and that's not something you can afford early game if you want to go for the Jayce vs Cho'Gath match-up), that never allowed Sven to succesfully gank for him, and by 10 minutes top lane was lost given that Cho'Gath was on par with Jyace and started to outscale, while Sven wasted his time playing around the Jayce and not enabling the other win conditions of the team (that was the "protect the Kog", or even a less likely scenario of a Ryze snowball)

Hèntaî 1 votes

But kevin :(

III BAKURYU III 1 votes

I honestly just don't see Bjergsen changing the way he plays, he plays passive(nothing Froggen like), he plays safe and goes even. The whole "Syndra press R" is a meme but it's not too far from the truth. He tends to only get going(kills/on a roll) during teamfights or getting camped(Solomid) for. The Syndra is a pocket pick that more times than not, he picks when up against better teams, its what you could say, his safe pick. 0-4 is his record I believe on Zed and LB combined at Worlds I also just haven't really seen him do much of anything with such champions that he's given, is he given meh champions to work with I suppose but the fact is he doesn't make plays or take risks, he simply just goes even every game, and that's not a knock on him at all, as going even against top talent is very impressive but he's the best player in the West and he doesn't seem to actually know what to do or how to use such skill. Let's be honest here for a minute, if Parth said play X champion, I'm pretty sure Bjergsen can say just about anything to his liking, as He, Parth and Regi all know Bjergsen is TSM and without him.....

Sven ok, maybe he can leave but the only problem is he's the only aggressive player on TSM and while Hauntzer has his moments he's not going to be able to be aggressive if he needs time to scale.

Hauntzer the whole Jayce pick was stupid, and I believe that's two years in a row where he picked it in elimination games at Worlds and lost on it. NA tops should honestly just stick to tank champions because they can't actually create pressure off winning their lane and they can't seem to get early leads to win games from it, especially if Bjergsen and D-Lift are on the team as carries or the primary carries.

Overall, TSM do need to shake things up with either A. Bjergsen leaves. I would rather both Bjergsen to leave and find another team and for TSM to get a mid that if the team does lose, at least he does something to create wins, other than just going even every game and losing anyways.

B. D-Lift leaves/. We've seen what having girlfriends does to players(makes them worse) to the point where they don't spend enough time to the game that they intend to win Worlds playing.
Sven and D-lift leaves/. D-Lift was a huge reason on why TSM lost in 16 and 17(Victor mid lane that cost TSM the baron).

C. Svenskeren leaves/. The problem is the whole EU jng(Bjergsen has had 3 junglers since being in the league(Svenskeren, Amazing and Santorin) all 3 Eu for the connection with BJergsen, if Svenskeren leaves I do see the roster at that point really losing both Sven and Bjerg

Overall, Biofrost is safe and so is Hauntzer 100% in my opinion. D-Lift will most likely retire and that tall dude(Rallez) will more than likely take his place, Sven will most likely stay on the team as a Blank/Bengi role until they find someone as a replacement(Reignover most likely).

Kloqdq1 votes

Really I think it has to mainly do with their drafts. They draft like shit almost always and worlds is the only stage where you want to be unpredictable and create new and better game plans every freaking day. You need to be strong and confident and keep your opponents guessing because when you play by the book, then throw your players on picks they don't do strongly at, of course you are going to do poorly. TSM gets fucked over ever year by this and their second biggest issue;

SHIT SHOT CALLING!

TSM plays their game too safe and whatever they try to do ingame, they don't react well enough. When Dyrus was on TSM, I put the blame 100% for Dyrus having a shit lane almost every game on TSM not properly shot calling. They didn't react like they needed to and they don't make plays in game well enough to beat out others. They know NA and they can always show up there but on the international stage? Fuck no. They just drop everything.

SobeDragon1 votes

at the end of the day, the culture and strategy of a team comes down to the Coach. It doesn't come down to the players. They execute the plan, if you want to blame someone for them following a losing strategy. No where to go but Parth. When you lose a game the first 10 minutes of the game, thats down to champ select and strategy.

No matter of mechanics can counter a superior strategy and solid execution. You can't outplay the fact that their lane outpushes you, and they warded to protect that lane and roam to protect that push so that its guaranteed a first tower kill, which leads to a massive gold lead for the enemy team for such an early portion of the map.

It gives them freedom to ward deeper, and see plays farther out, and suffocate your vision while pushing another lane with that vision. League is a team game and a game of knowledge. NTM, top lane is much easier to gank from blue side compared to red side.

It just pisses me off that TSM's analysts and coaches led their players to believe that this was their best strategy going forward. Its extremely frustrating.

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