Bídoof21 votesCloud 9 could have won this series. If they got that 4th game base down, they would have gotten a morale boost into the 5th game
The major reason cloud 9 lost though is hai's feeding, he needs to get that under control. Plz no more talon
ALTHOUGH: they have very strong shotcalling, he just needs to pick safer champs and/or learn to play assassins while shotcalling. Something different than like 1-6 every game
Manoi3 votesHe was forced into Talon in the fourth game due to picks and bans.
Sadistic Cheese11 votesI can see that, but at this point with Hai's record on Talon, I'd rather see him pick into Fizz or.....just about any other midlaner. I hate to be crude but it seems like Hai's IQ drops a few points whenever he locks in Talon. He's made some bad plays on Talon that have made the casters and analysts struggle for words and the rest of us rage. Meteos has a curse with Fiddlesticks, Hai's curse is Talon.
Overall for next season I think they need to shore up their champion pools and mechanics. They need to figure out how they went from what they were in season 3 to what they are now and what that change was. Meteos and Hai have the most work to do, I think. Balls could stand some improvement but what player can't? Sneaky and Lemon just need to expand their pools and develop a new bag of tricks for next season. Honestly I'd like to see Meteos get back onto Zac in some fashion, since he was always great on him. Without Zac and Elise Meteos seems pretty lost in the jungle, and if anyone can get the blob back into competitive, I trust Cloud 9 to come up with a way.
sinZsoul4 votesAlthough I agree with some of the statements in the above paragraph, the Zac pick would not be smart. In fact, it would be quite stupid. Zac is one of those champions that Rito has completely nerfed to oblivion. It is not played regularly by any top or jungle and most do not even bother to play Zac for one game ever. If you look at the patch history for Zac on the league wiki, you can start to understand why.
Sadistic Cheese3 votesI agree he's over-nerfed, but the reason I mentioned him was because Zac seemed to be a champion Meteos was comfortable on, and he was able to make plays on, which is what his team needs. People swore Irelia and Soraka and Poppy were useless and we've seen them all before in competitive play. I don't thinK Zac is part of that particular group of 'previously nerfed, now strong but overlooked', but the point is that Meteos needs to be back on something that's his and something he's comfortable with.
I wish it could be Zac, but it doesn't have to be him per-se. Any champion that gives them a level of comfort and a good ability to affect the game in question is something I'd like to see out of them.
Jesot1 votesI don't get people not playing Zac. He's not overpowered anymore, but his utility never changed. He's still a complete terror in team fights and when laning because of his insane initiation and disruption.
Sadistic Cheese2 votesThey over-nerfed him. I don't personally see where he was overpowered, really. I'd be fine if he wasn't top-lane material and they kept him in the jungle. He did great ganks and, I believe there's a phrase used about Orianna that states when she wins, she helps the team win too. I think Zac was/is the same way: when Zac gets fed, particularly jungle Zac, he's simultaneously helping the rest of his team get fed. If Riot really wants a focus on team and teamwork, nerfing Zac and other champions like him isn't the way to do it.
Diamonesd6 votesIf you are forced into a talon pick, that simply means your champion pool is way too small. Look at Pawn. He plays a new champion basically every game.
amardil941 votesHai's shotcalling was mostly good but I feel the last call to rush the nexus was completely wrong. They should've taken the inhibitor and gone for baron, with 20s on the 3 dead players there was no way they were gonna get the nexus down
JimmyNtheKudos2 votesI think it was their only chance to win. They were very behind, and as evidenced in the other games, having an inhib down for SSB, is nothing. I kept thinking they should have gone back to base when I was watching the game, but when I was replaying it in my head, I thought what could they have done to win after that?
Haruza1 votesI agree because I only see him played Zed and Syndra successful. He needs to expand his chanp pool to more safe picks like ori and other champs.
JimmyNtheKudos2 votesThey should have done a better job in picks and bans, they let Yasuo/Maokai go through and Lee Sin in two different games. They payed for it both games dearly. Hai's shotcalling was on point, but his individual play was more than lackluster. I think they should start considering putting him in a Coaching position, if not possibly Lemon and have Hai work on his champion pool.
BradenWoA1 votesThere were way too many priority picks to deny them all. Just not possible
2Boo4Berry9 votesJust want to say thanks so much for keeping the site "spoiler free" by pasting this across the front page of lolesports.com. Making it so I couldn't help but see the results of my most anticipated match just as I navigate to the page in preparation for the rebroadcast was just an awesome thing to do. Thanks so much.
Jathiel4 votesTake the LoL VODS page, and bookmark it. You will never be spoiled again.
JimmyNtheKudos2 votesJust go to the tab where it says "schedule," scroll down and hit hide spoilers. You can then tune in to watch every replay match without spoilers.
TheSequelsRBad9 votesWanted to say that even tho C9 lost they are still my favorite team and I believe that one day, season 5 or season 10, I will see them take a world championship for NA, and I will be right there cheering for them the whole way. C9 will rise again!
Rayre1 voteshere here
meatjunjun9 votesCongrats to C9. It was well-fought and not a blowout like many predicted. But I think the majority of you are giving C9 too much credit and SSB too little.
It's like what Dandy said in one of his interviews, when TSM does well they get praised; and when they lose, they still get praised for trying. Whereas when SSW wins, everyone says "meh"; and when they lose, they get HEAVILY criticized.
The same can be said for C9 and SSB. C9 was playing with house money, and they took all these gambles (which paid off) because they knew they couldn't win head-to-head in the long run. With SSB winning, all they did was meet expectations.
It makes me sad that when you're the best, people don't get that excited for their wins; and many hope that they lose.
JoelWhoKillz3 votesNobody gives a crap because Korean teams ALWAYS win. It's not even fair sport. People cheer at UFC fights because the fighters are equal, so the winner is the more skilled one. Koreans get to practice in a closed off environment with the top players in the world, while everyone else has to practice with a bunch of third rate garbage. It's like training one guy to fight heavy weights, and then putting him up against a featherweight.
clickhead3 votesDat circular logic. "Koreans are better because they get to play with the top players in the world", but the reason that they get to play with the top players in the world is because they are better...
12tales2 votesIt's kinda true, tho. The fact that almost every Korean team has a sister team to scrim whenever they like, alongside the fact that even the 7th and 8th place Korean teams are quite good means that Korean teams can get much more consistent and higher quality practice. It's a strength of the format of OGN as much as anything else.
Like, if you're a 3d-8th place team in NA, and you're playing both C9 and TSM in the next week, you're kinda fucked as far as practice partners go.
Earl Eulrich2 votesjust copy&pasting myself here:
I think that´s the great missconception about the Korean-Strength...while their Top-Teams always seem very far ahead of evryone else people just don´t see the many weaknesses of their "lesser" Teams:
- I mean NJWS lost a game taking 0objectives or kills vs Alliance, a team capable of loosing to Kaboom (not wanting to take anything away from Kaboom, but that frankly just shows more how much Alliance has to improve than it speaks for how strong Kaboom is) as the Korean 3rd Place.
So the Korean System for me excels in getting some Teams ahead of the rest of the world, but on the other hand on average I think they actually aren´t that strong. LCS/LPL is a lot closer competition across all Teams actually. Once other Regions catch up with the coaching/Professionalism(attitude) I wouldn´t be surprised to see the Korean Teams struggle. Right now it´s mostly their mentality keeping them ahead.
12tales3 votesI strongly, strongly disagree. Samsung White, Samsung Blue, Najin White Shield, Najin Black Sword, KTA, SKT K, and the Jin Air Stealths would probably get top two in any western region if they moved there. Hell, even the CJ Teams could make worlds. You cannot honestly look at Evil Geniuses and tell me that they'd stand a chance against 4th-8th place Korean teams.
I mean NJWS lost a game taking 0objectives or kills vs Alliance, a team capable of loosing to Kaboom (not wanting to take anything away from Kaboom, but that frankly just shows more how much Alliance has to improve than it speaks for how strong Kaboom is) as the Korean 3rd Place.
And Samsung Blue lost a game to fuckin' Incredible Miracle #2. While Frozen was playing Lux. Shit happens in Best of 1s. Look who's leaving groups in first place.
Najin White Shield is by far the worst Korean team attending this tournament - they barely made it to the Round of 8 in OGN Summer, where they got kicked out immediately - and they got first place in a group with arguably the two strongest western teams out there. There's no way to look at that and conclude that there's any sort of parity between Korea and the west.
KTA (winner of Champions Summer) can really be compared to Fnatic...incredible high skill-ceiling, but inconsistent aswell
Except KTA have the best jungler in the world, and a top five mid laner in the world, while Fnatic has a mediocre jungler that peaked years ago and a mid laner that can't realistically challenge for best in his region.
Earl Eulrich2 votesFirst of...yea, everyone can lose a best of 1 - but to do so without even killing a single Champion or objective just speaks for itself (and on a side note - you seriously underrate Lux). And NJWS did beat every other team in Tie-breakers (Best of 5, so no luck there) very convincingly...rating them as "by far the worst Korean Team" really is a bold statement. They have been 2nd place in Champions spring and they won the Tie-breaker because they are on the very Top of Korean LoL. They may not be as fancy as KTA, nor as famous as SKT...but they are not a weaker Team and they have proven it several times. And if you think the performance Alliance did put together is the "strongest" in the west you´re really underselling our Regions.
12tales1 votesThey have been 2nd place in Champions spring
Only because White and Blue met in the quarter finals - even then, I don't know anybody who'd argue that they were the second strongest team in Korea. To the best of my knowledge, Shield has never taken a set off of White or Blue with their current rosters. And given that those are the only other Korean teams at the tournament, it doesn't really seem bold to call them the weakest.
Najin White Shield in their regionals form was fantastic. The Najin White Shield that's showed up at worlds would make quarter finals in OGN.
And if you think the performance Alliance did put together is the "strongest" in the west you´re really underselling our Regions.
Who else is in the conversation? Alliance holds 6-2 records over both SK and Fnatic this season, so you can't really rank either of those teams above them. LMQ looked shaky as hell in both the NA Regionals and groups. Cloud 9 and TSM are the only teams you could make a case for over Alliance - I personally rank Cloud 9 above them and TSM below them.
Regardless, the point is - Alliance is by far the best team in Europe, and C9 is probably the best team in NA. The fact that a 3rd place at best Korean team managed to get first in that group isn't an encouraging sign.
First of...yea, everyone can lose a best of 1 - but to do so without even killing a single Champion or objective just speaks for itself (and on a side note - you seriously underrate Lux).
Najin White Shield was running a comp with no hard engage against a Zilean and multiple GAs. Alliance would have to fuck up pretty hard to give up a kill after the early game, given how far ahead they got.
Also, just for the record - this was before the buffs to Lux's passive and the nerfs to Orianna's base AD. Although she's maybe a defensible pick now, when that game was played, Lux was pretty much a poor man's version of Ori.
12tales1 votesI'd like to put forward today's games as evidence for the belief that Najin Shield is a lot worse than the Samsung teams.
Earl Eulrich1 votesI think you missunderstood my statement...yea, they are the worst Korean Team in worlds, but they still are the #3 Korean Team in the world. Which is what I said...Korea always brings some very strong teams to the very top, but on average Korea is just not as strong. On Average the western and chinese scene are actually stronger, and if they fix their consistency issues they´ll be able to overcome the Korean Dominance within 1-2 Seasons.
12tales1 votesyea, they are the worst Korean Team in worlds
--
rating them as "by far the worst Korean Team" really is a bold statement.
i am confuse
Earl Eulrich1 votesI noticed, but I´m afraid any further explanations would just go in circles and repeat itself. Just read it again from argument 1 and maybe you´ll grasp the point.
12tales1 votesSmooth.
Jesot1 votesIt's not so much that they get to play against other Koreans as much as it's that they get to play against LPL and GPL teams without much difficulty. Those 3 regions have a huge advantage of having 3 high level leagues that cover 8 of the 16 spots in Worlds.
If NA and EU could play against each other like the Asian teams are able to do, they'd have the opportunity to get much better as well. That the NA teams were able to go over to Korea and pretty much be at the same level they were at in NA shows there's not quite the massive individual skill gap that people perceive. The biggest differences are the number of high quality teams available to play at all levels of the team ladder, and that they don't use competitive play to boost their streaming viewers.
12tales1 votesIt's tragic, because there were actually plans for a CLG-Alliance bootcamp in between splits, but it never happened because of All-Stars.
Not only would more international competition be good from an entertainment perspective, I think it'd be a great way to facilitate growth in top heavy regions like GPL and EU.
amardil941 votesI don't know about others, but I wasn't that excited when SSW/SSB won because I want to see a non-Korean team win Worlds this year. No, I don't hate Koreans and they worked hard for their wins and completely deserve them, but it does get boring when one region dominates every season. I have to say this season has been much more interesting than the last though, NA especially showing a lot of improvement.
With that being said, I'm 99% sure a Korean team will take Worlds again this year. Of all the remaining non-Korean teams maybe SHRC can pull off an upset, but it's most likely gonna be SSB/SSW going 3-0 in the finals
12tales1 votesTotal Korean fanboy here - I think that odds are a lot worse than 99%. Especially if Samsung Blue continues their trend of dominance over White, I think both OMG and SHR have really good stylistic matchups in their favor. Blue lost a game to Fnatic in groups; they lost the OGN finals to the KT Arrows. This is a team that has difficulty against aggressive early game teams, which fits both Royal and OMG to a tee.
I think if White makes it to the finals, it's gonna be something like 90-10 odds. I'd actually give Blue only 70-30 or so, tho. And they're definitely gonna drop games no matter what.
Bashtard4 votesThis series was lost by Hai and Lemonnation. For those 2 reasons C9 will forever be in the 1.5 Tier worldwide.
Balls typically wins lanes or at least goes even, Meteos although he needs to get back to his season 3 dominance by changing up his champion pool after Rito decided to nerf his champions into oblivion whenever he finds one that is strong but is still one of the most efficient and carry-capable junglers in the world, and Sneaky, well Sneaky has gone and dominated some of the top ADCs in the world this year and showed he's more than capable of being the star of C9.
Hai though has a poor champion pool and sometimes questionable playcalling. He's starting to remind me of Reginald right before he retired. Sure he's a great shotcaller and his team benefits greatly from it, but at the same time he can easily go on tilt and start feeding, or just feed period if forced onto champs he's not the best with. Hai's importance to C9 was shown at all-stars where although they had some big wins with Link, who many had ranked as a better midlaner than Hai coming out of S3 and the 2nd half of S4 after the support midlaners got hypernerfed, the lack of playcalling hurt them. So if you replace Hai in the midlane you need to find someone that could shot call for the team as well, either at midlane or elsewhere.
Lemonnation although he's actually one of the top supports in NA, he just makes too many mistakes that cost them the game, including poor ward coverage. Put Lemonnation as the coach, get someone like xspecial as support, have Lemon work with Hai on his champion pool and playcalling, C9 >>>>
Cardboard Jesus2 votesI heard that Alex Ich of the old M5 is considering playing in NA. Fingers crossed.
GhastlyGhoulMan3 votesI can't even bring myself to watch the rest of lcs at this point. None of the future matchups look exciting at all. It's essentially just "x korean team" vs "y korean team" now. :(
Suvetar5 votesI totally agree with you. I have to criticize the group composition, cause it was way too easy for SSW to qualify for the quarter-finals and a hard way for the wildcard-winners, european and american teams. Why havent they sorted the groups by continents, so the best continental teams would play against each other? Now there are just chinese and korean teams, so why should i watch this? Maybe these words are gonna be a bit harsh but: None chinese or korean team will get the fanbase the american or european teams have.
holmazz10 votesThey are doing the groups so we will see regions vs regions. If you don't like it you can just go and watch the Na/Eu lcs to see your favourite teams play. Worlds is the one time a year when regions clash so us being able to see the most regions play against eachother is just logical
JoelWhoKillz3 votesI'm right there with you. It's not even fun watching this anymore when nobody can even try to beat Korea. They need to just not be allowed to play with the rest of the world anymore. They can have their own championship where it's actually fair.
Einherji8 votesYou're trolling, right? It's called worlds, not world segregation. I do agree that the groups need to be mixed up better. I would have loved to have seen C9 vs EDG. I think NA is the 2nd best region at this point. Unfortunately we won't get to find that out for sure. It was just sort of set up for the strongest teams to thrive and the weakest to get embarrassed. I would like to add that C9 should have taken game 4. That baron fight was the downfall.
JoelWhoKillz3 votesI understand it's worlds, but it's also completely pointless to call it that when we all know Koreans are going to win every single tournament forever now. Why? Because they spend almost 20 hours a day doing absolutely nothing but practicing every facet of every aspect of the game, and studying every single move every team makes. It's already been said that NA teams can't do this because they actually take the time to ENJOY the game they're playing. It's pretty obvious the only thing Koreans enjoy about the game is taking all the prize money home. It almost makes it literally pointless for the rest of the world to even try competing.
clickhead11 votesYou're right! And the person who wins the gold medal at the olympics? He probably trains harder than everyone else so instead of giving him the gold medal in the olympics lets forbid him to participate in the olympics and instead give him his own super olympics so he can win that instead, kappa.
MimiDivine5 votesso basically u edge out the strong team from the "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP" competition, what a stupid idea. Then I guess we should make a campaign to stop American's team to play basketball until the rest of the world catching up with them.
Varijake1 votesAmen
GhastlyGhoulMan2 votesWhat I find exciting is when teams defy expectations that people have for them, when everyone says, "X team is most likely to win" and the underdog team pulls the rug from under the heavy-weight. Hearing that "this Korean team" or "this Chinese team" are unstoppable, and then having those teams be exactly that seems boring to me. Kabum's victory against the bigger team was a match I thought was superbly exciting.
I've honestly probably watched too many underdog sports movies, but that's just me lol.