LCS is turning pro's into one tricks.

Vailance·Jan 25, 2017·5 votes·1,502 views

I've love watching LCS every year since season 2 and I play sporadically. But watching these games where every team is literally just a clone of one another is terrible. I still like watching the high level play, but FFS if I see the triple ban of Rengar/Cammile/LeBlanc again I may literally die. Why wasn't this addressed before the season broke? It was obvious it was gonna happen, it completely removes 3 bans from a team. It's neither fair nor is it fun to watch. So now that the ranting is over, seriously, why is this still going on? If they didn't know about it before the season start, they definitely know about it now. Why hasn't this been hot-fixed with a quickness that would give me whiplash? #20Bans

20 Comments

Michael SykesJan 25, 20172 votes

probably because Rengar and LeBlanc already have been nerfed/hotfixed. It only makes sense to wait a patch or two to see how the nerfs affects them. Obivously both are still on the stronger side (in higher elo). Which still does mean that more than 90% can deal with both champions according to their winrates, mostly because the players aren't good with them. Camille is a different issue because she is a new champ, but she is getting huge nerfs on the PBE.

GeminiRuneJan 25, 20172 votes

No matter how many bans get allocated, there will always be a rather static tier list that develops over time. With 7.1, the contested picks are just happening to be Rengar, Camille, and LeBlanc for the high impact purposes. Two of those three picks carried over from the 6.24 ban tier at the EU CS Qualifier which was still 6 bans at the time. This is nothing really new from competitive seasons in the past or even other games at that.

There's a difference between SoloQ and Pro play in that extent. SoloQ, there's no 5 players and a coach discussing with one another what they don't want to run themselves into and what they believe is the best composition for them to win. SoloQ, you can lose and not worry about your future playing on a stage for fans. SoloQ, you can break the meta all you would like to, as long as it has confident results to carry on.

It's not fair to you as the viewer because you want to see diversity in team compositions and styles every other game. Yet if you're a fan of a team and want that team to win, expecting them to play what you want them to (such as Huni playing Quinn) would be a risk the team has to be willing to take. Every region (especially China) has its teams with players who have unique picks that get worked around or banned out the following game should it be a real threat. The 10 ban system actually helps target that on top of the 6 priority bans that any pro should be used to. Yet viewers still find a reason to complain patch after patch. 6 bans, 10 bans, 20 bans, blind pick (remember OGN days), it's all going to be the same thing given time because that is how pro play is.

VailanceJan 26, 20172 votes

I don't expect them to pick weak champs for my sake, and I know they balance the best they can as they go. I wasn't posting this because I want it now! I was just lamenting the very static teams. Last season wasn't this bad, their were champs who waxed and waned during the season, but 3 exact champs EVERY game save for 1 or 2? That's hasn't ever happened that I remember. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I just feel like it was so obvious that it was happening that they should have been a bit more proactive for the esport community.

They are trying to push esports and are doing a good job and that's great, but this feels like it will make watching the games a bit stale. I disagree with more bans, the champ pool is big enough to handle it. I don't really care if it ever goes higher though, the problem for me is the forced bans atm. Seems unfair to the team required to ban them.

Thanks for an actual post by the way and not being a stereotypical LoL douche like most of the guys who posted behind you. :o)

GeminiRuneJan 26, 20172 votes

I do my best. I have somewhat of an esports background despite not going professional with it just an enthusiast who's watched various competitive games. And I can understand your response to it.

Another way I did think of it though, but didn't use it as reference though was from other games with a team structure. Basically the Marvel vs Capcom series. Now even though you're not banning anything, the characters that get picked are all too repetitive now that there's an unchanging tier list.

Marvel vs Capcom 2; A 56 character roster and only about 8 are played mainstream these days on those rare occasions when it hosts tourneys.

Marvel vs Capcom 3: A bit more up to date, but harbors about 4 busted characters you either know how to play or play against it: Doctor Doom, Vergil, Zero, and Morrigan (honorable mention to Magneto). If a team had 3 of these 4 characters, it was probably not going to be fun or interesting unless he lost.

Now to string it back to League as a viewer perspective. You can see the same three bans or the same 3 picks per role and get bothered by it; I can easily relate that feeling of boredom to seeing the same 3 characters by a player in MvC. The standout difference comes from what you had mentioned: League is ever changing, not to mention time consuming. Fighting games back then never really had a shift in a character or even buffs/nerfs which recent fighters have started to do. Over time, a Champion's priority will shift based on what gets good and what goes bad.

I guess because of how I adapted to seeing the same fighting game over and over with MvC, I built a tolerance for seeing the same thing over and over for Mobas like League, Dota, and Smite, or strategies in shooters like Overwatch and CSGO, CSGO itself being a somewhat weak point of reference given its play as is.

But how do I keep up with it; what keeps me watching an expected degree of boredom? If I had to answer, particularly for fighting games where my esports viewing roots began, it would be from how insanely mechanical players had to be on a physical scale and that even one mistake or bad input could cost you and the crowd would just lose it.

That's about all I can say. Just adding a bit more depth on my response from earlier really. Change happens as the year passes.

VailanceJan 26, 20171 votes

I understand, and appreciate the time you took. I'm still watching even if I'm throwing a tantrum so I can see things like Lod's flash from Ashe ult coming from bush half a lane away. I like seeing those incredible reflex's and the plays that follow. Just hate seeing those forced picks and bans. Hopefully the Rengar and Cam nerfs bring them back to earth a bit and they push it through LCS sooner rather than later.

Thanks again.

VailanceJan 26, 20171 votes

Before I drop the conversation completely, can you or anyone who reads this explain why League and most games in general tend to take nerfs and buffs so slowly? I understand you have to evaluate the actual effects of something, but when a champ like Zyra is almost unanimously considered the best support why doesn't she get a small number tweak or range reduction etc, to help bump her down a bit to bring her more in line instead of just letting it run wild for so long? I feel like the balance of some champs is hard for a reason but the champs that are so strong should be easy to just say oh, this is the problem, lets tone that down just a pinch.

GeminiRuneJan 27, 20171 votes

This is a case where one has to really think in the concept of it being a game first and a competitive scene second. Since it's ever changing, it's considerably gauged off of trends and attempted to make balance off of a few things at a time. Some may impact pro play and some may not. What takes longer than usual is that the current trend may find said competitive Champion high in value but the general game may not enforce necessary changes at the point in time. It's like a tier list from what I've noticed with noted bugs being top priority, followed by damage output matters, then utility mechanics, and somewhere in between that is the obligatory Aatrox mention.

Take MF at Worlds. It became evident that she was a considerably counter to Zyra yet has received no change to nerf that issue due to how selective it was in both competitive and regular play (at least from my observation). On the flip side, Zyra has her balance of counters and vulnerabilities as much as much as it doesn't look like it is.

Sometimes it's not as easy as "gut the champion" and problem solved. I forget which S6 patch nerfed a competitive champion and it remained contested through it. So until another champion or change either trumps it consistently or the champion meta shifts to favor the champion less, it all comes to just acknowledging the power of the champion. Just another case of how pro play can get linear unfortunately

VailanceJan 28, 20171 votes

I was using Zyra as the example and I'll stick with it. Zyra is considered such a good support because she has a nice knock up and a root. She's considered the top support because she's also a lane bully. Why not take the bullying out of the equation since it's obviously what is completely killing the diversity in that position. I know I'm not an expert, but it does indeed seem much more simple to "balance" simple issues like this than others.

There are so many ADC's that are over looked, and utility is the go too skill set right now which is great, I don't mind that at all. But from a balance stand point why not say something like this....

If an ADC has a slow and a stun then it's total MAX DPS should be X. If an ADC has NO CC what soever their MAX DPS should be Z. If an ADC has 1 utility and 1 slow it's MAX DPS should be Y.

Then all you have to do is mild tweaking to the skills usefulness itself and total champ output is never an issue since literally EVERY single champ in the game is balanced. Instead of having these wonky mismatches. Where and ADC's total DPS output varies wildly from champ to champ. Then just literally apply that formula that balances damage/defense through put vs cc vs utility to every champ and then just build skills around that and never worry about dmg.

It sounds very simple, then you have teams picking champs for their skills cause everything is balanced around a single formula that for their respective role. I realize that some champs are just better than others because their skill sets and "gimmick" are just crap, but it would certainly open the field to much more diverse play. It would also make skill a much larger factor in normal play and competitive play. Ehh?

Wish a League of Legends rep would step in and tell me how backwards I am. :o)

RivetAceJan 28, 20172 votes

Don't look at the bans, look at the picks. There have been a lot more picks recently, especially in the jungle. However, I agree that more bans could help competitive play be even more diverse. But where do you stop?

VailanceJan 28, 20171 votes

It's not just support and ADC's it's all positions, and the jungle is no exception. Rengar, Khaziks, Lee Sin, Brolaf, end of list. There are some close Tier A's right behind them, but that's what all the jungle's are looking for. We're talking about 134? champions here and only 30 of them, give or take, see play with any consistency. More ban's is a much easier solution to the Meta shifts that Riot are clearly having trouble keeping up with. (No offense Rito, I'm sure it's more complicated then I'm making it out to be).

All five positions revolve around 4 or so picks (ADC is 2 with close tier A's) unless they are banned out completely then they default to a select few others. But 4 champs give or take considered S tier champs for each position, 20 Bans would cover it. It would force at least 3 positions to play something other than a comfort pick, or you could see 20 bans targeted at a single lane (Lulz?)... Which I guess most pro's are pretty comfortable on anything that's decent. But the lack of diversity currently is pretty lame.

I'm not saying I wanna see Bjersen play the Donger.... But I wanna see Bjergsen play Donger. lmao

69469238DEL1Jan 25, 20171 votes

because QQ

VailanceJan 26, 20171 votes

Helpful, you should write books about how to not to raise kids, ask your mom for help. XOXO

69469238DEL1Jan 27, 20172 votes

lmao

III BAKURYU III Jan 25, 20171 votes

It's like the pros know what's op and what's not op, shame SHAME on them for knowing.
It's like asking Stephen Curry to stop shooting from the 3pt line because he's becoming a 1 trick pony.

VailanceJan 28, 20171 votes

I didn't mean that at all, was just lamenting the lack of speed with respects to OP champs receiving nerfs or just attention in general. Save your sarcasm and toxicity for the rift my dude.

III BAKURYU III Jan 28, 20171 votes

" Watching these games where every team is literally just a clone of one another is terrible"

It's the LCS again, they pick whats strong.
Lets say X champion gets nerfed it will cause a rise in these X champions to be more picked; rinse and repeat since 2011 this type of style has been going on it doesn't matter the same X amount of champions are going to be picked.

" Why wasn't this addressed before the season broke"

It was once the Assassin meta became a thing because people got tired of the tank meta so why not ban Rengar and LB who can burst you, and Cammile who's the newest champion so she needs to be OP or what's the point in creating her, if she wasn't OP no one would play her and Riot wasted X amount of time in production.

" It completely removes 3 bans from a team"

Similar to solo Q where it's the same 3-4 champions banned each game so why not in the LCS also what's the difference.

" It's neither fair - Each team gets 5 bans how is that not fair because a team targeted you and banned you out say 5 champions but you can't learn the other 130 champions but you're a pro? " nor is it fun to watch" - Don't watch because the same champions are going to be banned,played etc it's been going on since the LCS was created.

"Seriously, why is this still going on"

Previous stated before

" If they didn't know about it before the season start, they definitely know about it now"

Yep, 7+ years of knowing

Better?

VailanceJan 28, 20171 votes

We all know that when a champ gets nerfed it cause others to become stronger. But I don't understand why there isn't some static formula that they base a champs power around? All things being equal for a champions designed role would make diversity easier.

I disagree that they should make a champ OP out of the box. People will be excited for her regardless of her strength. I'd rather them err on the side of caution rather than to just completely remove a ban option from the team who picks second.

Solo Q isn't the same as pro play, solo Q players are terrible (I'm no exception). So bans rarely matter in solo q. A terrible Cam is a terrible Cam.

It's not fair because it forces 2nd pick to ban those champs. I don't get how that isn't easy to understand. The champs are so good that they HAVE to ban them or they can easily take over the game. One single champion shouldn't be so good it can 1V9. They should be using those bans to ban out the champions their opponents are good at. I'm not gonna stop watching, I'm just complaining about it. I'm human, no apology required for that I hope.

Cool!

League is getting old! 7 years, yeesh!

Yes, that was much better. Thank you for your input and the very clean format you presented it in! :o)

III BAKURYU III Jan 28, 20171 votes

Hey, first off I want to apologize for the way I acted earlier; life has been well life so it's rough and so is my attitude because of it so please forgive me.

They only way to make every champion viable is to take every champions abilities and have them do the same amount of dmg/base hp/ base dmg/ EVERYTHING. Even with a formula you can still get different types of inventions,methods, etc.
People are excited for a new champion that Riot releases; some people wait 2-3 months for the free rotation of that champion while others buy that champion because they think she's op or fun etc. I agree, however look at the current she's banned not because a player feels she is fun to play but because she is currently strong and my guess is within the next patch notes she will be nerfed.
Keep your eyes on champion skins also, as Riot tends to make a skin for a certain champion buff them and once say a certain amount of $ comes in they tend to nerf that champion as Riot has already gained $ from the amount of people buying those skins/champions.
Agree, however there is more tilt in solo Q and what champions tilt people the most are the obvious champions. while some people may be terrible on her she is still new and people don't want to face her because they don't know much about her or her abilities. Solo Q and LCS are pretty similar. How many times have you seen MF support before Worlds? Now look it's nothing but MF support mainly in Gold and lower because people watched 1 or 2 games from Worlds and copy pasted what they think is op and same rules apply to champions picked/banned from LCS.
Players are good at OP champions, while you can lower those champions stats or make them less OP and nerf them into the ground all that will do is cause a rip and make instead of those same 3-4 champions OP and just make a new set of 3-4 champions OP and picked, but you and I are really just talking to the choir at this topic.
Ranch
Came out in 09 I believe so 8 years but 2013 LCS years so 4 years old professionally.
Thanks, P:>}

VailanceJan 29, 20171 votes

I know the nerf/buff cycle is a thing, but there has to be some easy to follow ground rules that they can apply to make the overall strength of all champs much closer. Again, some champs are just less appealing because they have weird kits, but the champs that are clearly strong but can't function in the current meta because they lack something that the pro's deem worthy obviously just need a small tweak.

Sure it's not as easy as I'm making it out to be, but I legitimately don't understand why it's more complicated than I'm making it out to be. Just make every baseline the exact same, THEN add spells. Maybe they do, do this and I'm just not aware of it. But I think ALL ADC's should have a base line range and damage. And only a very select few like Trist should have extra scaling in range or damage. So when you pick an ADC (or any champ if you apply the same idea to all lanes and positions) you aren't picking them because they are mathematically superior, you're picking it because you're a beast on that champ or because their kit is preferable for your team comp etc. Making the game less about the math of the champs and more about the kit and the skill of the player? Dunno if I'm rambling, I feel like I'm making sense.

It's obviously not as simple as I'm making it out, but again, why is it not that simple? lol

III BAKURYU III Jan 29, 20171 votes

I understand what you're saying dude, and like I said that would be the only way to make other champions viable if their kits do the same dmg/ with the exception of CS and items but making people pick those champions because of their abilities; so I do understand fully what you mean. Have a good one ;]