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Why is NRG Exempt From LCS Rules?

AngryScrub··12 votes·4,078 views

After the NA 2015 summer split Team Coast, a challenger team, "earned" a LCS spot by beating team Enemy during their promotion series.

Sometime today Energy Sports (NRG) bought the LCS "spot" that Team Coast earned. Every person tied to the Coast team that qualified for the LCS is not on the NRG roster. Instead they are replaced by other players that had absolutely nothing to do with Coast's promotion into the LCS. As a result, not a single player that fought to earn an LCS spot with Coast is going to play in the upcoming Spring Split.

From what I understand normally when a **team **is bought out there are rules in place to prevent a 100% team overhaul. However, it appears that NRG is free to field a completely new team and essentially use their deep pockets to circumvent the challenger system altogether.

There's a few things at play here that I would like clarified.

Why is NRG allowed to buy their way into the LCS without going through the Challenger League? Isn't that the pre-designated mode new teams are required to go through to earn an LCS spot? Since they didn't buy team coast are they even ALLOWED to just buy the "spot" that Coast would take up for spring split? It seems like a shady way to circumvent the rules to me.

This also seems to contradict statements made by LCS in the past. See Below.

"we do not want to marginalize a team’s efforts and successes in the Promotion matches simply because another owner has deep pockets and wants to buy back into the LCS." Granted, NRG isn't buying **back **a spot, but I think buying a "spot" in general goes against the spirit of this rule. The current situation also seems to marginalize the efforts of the individual players on Coast that had to grind their way into the LCS for an entire split.

"Rationale: While we want to preserve the ability of teams to pick up new players and change their roster, we do not want them to pick up entire existent lineups and** essentially drop in a new team **(and we consider a team to be 3/5 or more of the starters). "_ Well, the lineup that CST had for their LCS spot has been 100% replaced._

http://2015.na.lolesports.com/articles/update-lemondogs-lcs-rule-changes

"The Challenger Series (CS) is the birthplace of future esports champions in North America and Europe. As the only path for players to join the premier LCS, competition in the CS is fierce. The Challenger series is comprised of six teams facing each other team twice in a double round robin season. All matches are played in a Best of 1 format." This is the only place I could rind detailing rules about a team being entered into the LCS. Does Riot need to update the wording here?

http://2015.na.lolesports.com/about

Edit: NRG did keep KonKwon from what I can tell. So 80% of the roster is new.

45 Comments

JimmyNtheKudos6 votes

Man these guys played their hearts out to make it to the LCS, and just like that poof you're not in the LCS.

Riot should have not let this fly...

TemptedAngel4 votes

Based upon my interpretation of the rules this is illegal. Also NRG fails to meet another LCS requirement; 3/5 of the players are Korean and none of the Korean players have been playing in NA LCS long enough to be grandfathered in like Bjerg. As much as I respect the players they signed I would never be willing to support the organization for this move. Imo if you have money to spend and you want an LCS presence create a challenger team and get into the LCS like everyone else. The players deserve stronger rights and protection from the teams/organizations that employee them. How can I, in the state of California, have a difficult time firing a toxic/defiant employee who threats the livelihood of other co-workers; yet young vulnerable kids trying to prove themselves get zero job security for what they have earned.

Maybe I am over reacting, and maybe my response is not 100% rational but I do know this move does not feel right. It feels like a 5 player team from China just moved in and qualified for the NA LCS........ Oh wait............

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

So the tldr of where this isn't entirely accurate is https://unikrn.com/community/esportslaws-take-on-the-nrg-controversy-and-player-protections-under-the-lcs-rules-2/

For simpler and more specific areas you might be off (not 100% sure, I'm tired and may not be on full functioning brain mode here so apologies if I say something wrong/insulting):

  1. Konkwon is an NA player, the 3/5ths rule (god I love that, like best "this is a racist rule/law" accidental joke ever) is probably why moon is playing instead of shrimp. Maybe moon is a better jungle, but I remember shrimp got a lot of hype and he looked good in the games I saw, but shrimp was an import player and moon isn't. They needed a 3rd NA player to go w/ Altec and Konkwon, so moon is in, shrimp is out.

  2. It's probably not illegal based on riot's rulings, but it's definitely something they will have to make a statement on based on the ambiguity of their wording. The 3/5ths rule was created in direct response to NIP trying to offer Lemondogs a buy out offer when the two played a match for an EU LCS spot. Honestly I can't remember if it was before or after the game, but NIP offered to pay LD for the spot so even if the LD line up beat NIP, then NIP would not get relegated and would be in the LCS either way. They made the rule to prevent a team who was beat still competing through buying a spot. If they rule that is the sole intention of the rule (to ensure the best teams are playing and not just the teams that buy the spots after losing), then what RNG did will be okay and solidified as okay for future seasons.

  3. Building on point two and explaining where you may have been confused; riot added a rule stating that the LCS spot belongs to the organization and not the players (I'm pretty sure it was added after the 3/5ths rule) in order to address the issue of a team trying to shop for new sponsors and a better deal or make their current sponsors/team owners raise their contract price. W/out the org owning it, then if 3/5ths of the players were in solid agreement they could sell the team w/out the owners consent regardless of what their contracts were essentially (or at least use that leverage to force the owners to pay them more until their contracts ran out and weren't renewed).

  4. Challenger players w/ contracts that expired have been fully compensated and have been paid exactly what they earned. That's kind of what a contract is if you haven't made one before. You agree to pay or perform a service in exchange for something else. Anything outside of the contract is not an obligation or guarantee. In exchange for not being required to play for the team in 2016 if they were in the CS, the players are not guaranteed their contract being in place if the team does qualify for the LCS. The reason you have more difficulty firing someone is because of the terms agreed to when you hire them. I'm sure even in CA if you hire someone to fix your house and they finish the job you don't have any trouble terminating that service when it's done and hiring someone else to fix your house the next time something goes wrong. Same thing applies here. Contract is over, job is over. If you set up your business that way then you would be fine to fire people any time you wanted to by just not offering them a new contract.

AngryScrub2 votes

Thanks for the well informed response. They should get rid of the 3/5ths rule name because it isn't really enlightening anyone and definitely doesn't come with the best historical connotation =P.

From what I can gather, it seems like the current LCS rules leave way too much to interpretation and are being developed in response to these kind of situations rather than ahead of them. Additionally, the "rationales" Riot provided with the above mentioned rules in comparison to the actual black/white rules that accompany them don't seem to jive with one another.

I still think that it is counterintuitive to have the Challenger scene exist as the means for a new team to enter the LCS while also allowing LCS spots to be sold to anyone with deep enough pockets. I think Riot should choose one or the other (I can see merits to both).

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

In your first point you seem to be confusing Racism with Nationalism. No one cares that they are Asian, they care that they are from KR playing in a region called NA. If you want them to get rid of the 3/5 rule then you might as well get rid of regions all together and I have a feeling that would hurt the LCS really bad.

T RexHasTinyArms2 votes

Not really. It runs in the same vein as the research on microaggressions. If it were purely national pride then two things would look different: first it would be regional teams like the World Cup rather than organization teams (there is no import limit in the NBA and it is a league with much more money and National in the title), and second players like Pobelter who were raised and built up as players in NA would not be referred to as Korean players when this topic is brought up (which they are quite frequently). Although there is a nationalism argument that can be made there is at least as strong a rascism argument.

Doesn't mean it is a bad move, and I don't think they should remove it at all. Adding minorities to the majors in baseball would have been a terrible business move in 1920. I love affirmative action policies for the lower tier regions bc I like a lot of the NA personalities and would rather they be replaced by better players slowly instead of all at once.I just think it is funny that the number lines up with one of the biggest embarrassments of a law that congress ever passed, and how does that not make more people laugh?

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

Your not getting the point. you described the rule as racist, no where in the rule does it mention anything about players not being eligible for a region based on race. Its not a racist rule. It has everything to do with where you are from but nothing to do with skin color. You think that some one from KR that was White would be able to come to NA with out taking one of the two import spots?

Second they regional rule needs to remain intact because the number of fans of a particular region far out number the fans of the game overall. Imports haven't even been proven to work in NA, TSM is the only team to do anything of merit since importing started and even then it only carried them so far. The other NA top teams were full NA rosters (C9/CLG). All allowing for more imports will do is eventually drive the fans of the region away when there region consist of no players form that region. That would really hurt the support for this game, did you see how many people didn't even want to watch the finals at worlds because it was KR vs KR.

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

Your second paragraph kind of just agrees with what I said in my last paragraph. There are probably more NA games I watch than other regions, but I probably watch as many KR games as I do EU games bc while there are some EU players I like I don't follow other regions as much and watch more KR games bc they are the best region.

Your first paragraph is more justification that I "don't get the point" rather than addressing the points I brought up. Yes what you state about it not being overtly racist is 100% true but I didn't say it was overtly racist. Some people may even not take a racist approach to the issue, but like I said, many people in the discussion of the rule of the greater concept it springs out of (regional pride in teams) refer to players like Pobelter as if they were not NA players. I understand exactly what you meant but was politely trying to point out that while I understand you, I think that based on behavioral research and higher level thinking about abstract concepts you have drawn an inaccurate or poorly informed understanding of the issue.

The reference to the rule being racist similar to micro aggressions is saying the rule isn't overtly racist but more originates out of more subtle bigotry that pretty much everyone has and often just doesn't acknowledge. For instance I'm rather bigoted when it comes to people I think lack social class or high levels of education so I try to acknowledge that, knowing I have no interest in changing that and not be rude about it. Similarly the justification "white people from KR wouldn't be allowed either" either intentionally or unintentionally completely ignores the fact that it wouldn't matter at all if you were trying to draft this rule specifically to target KR players of KR decent rather than Anglo descent. Here is why: the likelihood of a white player from KR transferring to NA is negligible and can be disregarded as an issue that would be precluded by this rule. The racial diversity of KR is significantly lower than the US so there are very few professional caliber players in KR who are white. The few who do exist generally moved to KR to be in a higher caliber of competitive environment and would be unlikely to want to move back to NA or eu. For example lastshadow is a pro coach who originally moved to KR as a Starcraft pro and stays there bc he loves e-sports and doesn't have any interest in moving to a lower caliber region.

I get what you are saying, but I think it is overly simple and inaccurate. I think it is wrong because of research about statistical differences in how people behave regarding people of other ethnicities based on things like beliefs about rules similar to this and statement that are not overtly racist but subtly so. You are free to think whatever you want, that's one of the nicer things about being human, but please stop suffering from the misconception that I don't understand what you are saying. I just think you're wrong and that's okay. The same way it is okay for you to have those beliefs without being informed when you reply to me about what I mean when I say "research on micro aggressions." You are free to think what you want but if you don't get what I'm saying I'm done explaining bc no amount will help you understand until you look at some numbers probably.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

"this is a racist rule" <-- Your original post I responded too.

"...but I didn't say it was overtly racist. " < this post I'm responding too.

I'm seeing some inconsistency.

I'm seriously lost as to where you are going with all this. You say you watch NA more than anyone but don't like the Idea of the regional rule. WTF would lead you to prefer NA? If you only want to see NA do good because of imports you might as well just watch the other regions there is no difference between watching those players play there or here. There have been regions from the start and have been enforced through out the life of the game because they are good for the game. Riot wants to promote regional play to keep regional fans interested its why they brought in the rule after the LMQ fiasco. There is nothing wrong with the rule it does nothing to hurt other regions or put them at an unfair advantage and it help to attempt to strengthen the regions local talent. Its a win/win.

Focodoco1 votes

so nothing that has been done is against the rules and konkwon has lived in na since the 8th grade so they look at him as an american talent which piglet will be american talent next season. so nothing has been done is wrong and have all the right to do what they have done with in the rules of rito also you dont understand how the challenger series works. some dont get paid. what you are doing is a fun thing to do and you earn your org a spot on to the lcs not you your self. now most teams will pay the players because you want them to play for you. yet if you sign someone to a contract and tell them they are going to be on the bench and they will never start they will leave the team to go on to the challenger series again. if im working for a company and they find someone better at my job than me and want me to go down in pay and spend the years i could be trying to become the best instead of being a bench warmer and making less money id rather just leave. you understand nothing. this is fair because a team wants to put the best roster forward not a team of trash that beat another team of trash. thats like saying a sub shouldnt play at world because he didnt help his team get there and doesnt deserve it.

Axis the Dragon2 votes

Not only that, they're essentially a Frankenstein construct made of different pieces of different teams

Ex-TiP toplaner Impact Ex-Jin Air midlaner GBM Ex-Team Imagine jungler Moon Ex-Gravity ADC Altec Ex-Origen Coach Hermit Ex-C9 Coach Charlie Lipsie


Still, I wonder how Team 8 / Immortals are gonna do it? 3 of their players left (Goldenglue/Porpoise are free agents, Dodo retired)

AngryScrub1 votes

Yeah, almost makes me think that expanding the NA LCS to 10 teams was a bit pre-mature.

Ale non è male1 votes

There are still NA resident players avaialbe to put up decent to good teams, eh

Flaresz/Seraph on top lane Porpoise/Dexter/ Santorin (if he has not retired)/ Meteos (potentially even if it looks like he is just taking a break from league)/Helios on jungle Pobelter/goldenglue/Pekin/Keane/Gate on mid lane Nien/maplestreet (I know, he is on IMG, but I guess he could leave for LCS team)/ keith (same situation as maple)/LOD on adc Adrian/Xpecial on support

Axis the Dragon1 votes

Santorin is from EU and I'm pretty sure he returned to go back to his studies

Keane is a Korean import, though, so idk if teams will be willing to spend an import slot on him (C9 already took Rush, and with Incarnation that makes 2, TSM have KaSing and Svenskeren. CLG already have Huhi, so idk if they're willing to invest in another import mid. Liquid have Fenix/Piglet, DIG have Smittyj/kirei... who's left? Renegades? Coast? Immortals?)

(Un)popular opinion: I'd rather have Seraph over Balls for C9 - but isn't he still considered an import? Or has it been 2 years?

Pobelter's looking for a new team, true - and Gate might be staying on whatever team buys out TiP

Ale non è male1 votes

Santorin, Seraph and Keane were all previously ENR, so they could actually declare Na residency prior to this season, teams don't have to spend import slots to get them. I know Santorin has taken a break actually, and is unlikely to be available, but in theory he could be available as NA resident free agent

I think honestly C9 is looking for when Rush will become Na resident before searching for a Balls replacement, because, quite honestly, it's not like Seraph seemed this world class level top laner either, and for a team that strive to compete at international level it doesn't look like Seraph could be a winning choice. For a team that want to avoid relegation and fight for a low playoff seed, he is more than good enough as Na resident player though

Axis the Dragon1 votes

Yeah, I suppose. If Rush stays in NA for this spring split and the upcoming summer split (plus worlds), it'll be a full 2 years, granting him NA status - but will he stay that long? Time will tell, I guess. Who'd be a worlds-level replacement for Balls, though?

Ale non è male1 votes

Once Rush take NA residency, they can literaly go and get some KR/EU/CH imports that can be world class players like Odoamne, Cabochard, Huni, tons of other Koreans, Flame, etc, etc,etc...

The core problem is that in Na scene there isn't actually a Balls replacement that is a world level player, and would actually been available, so wait for Tush to get NA and then go search for the replacement is the wiser choice (and either way even if they want to search a NA player these guys are not ready yet now and still you got to wait time). Guys like Quas or Zion are too much dependent on if there is a carry meta and if they are actually mechanically better than they counterpart (which they are not at international level), Impact isn't NA player either just like Rush and will become NA at same time Rush will, Hauntzer is the only Na top that has the potential to be at least solid with every meta (not spectacular, but not too much of a weakness either) and he still has to grow to reach that level and TSM grabbed him so it's unlikely they let him go if he doesn' completely shit the bed, Cali unfortunately decided to retire - and he was the only other NA top with potential to be really good, even more potential than Hauntzer imho -, Seraph could be good at NA level but imho not world class If they disperately need a filler because Balls is doing realy bad before the end of this season, they have still Solo in their challenger team which was probably the best player on last season C9T or can send Hai top as short gap solution

Axis the Dragon1 votes

I wonder why there are no really good mid or top players in NA (as in purely from NA and not originally an import), though

It's somewhat of a shame

AngryScrub2 votes

Pobelter is pretty good IMO.

I think a lot of it has to do with how NA teams develop talent (or fail to do so). There's too much pressure to "win now" and avoid relegation so trying to develop home-grown talent is a big risk.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

Apart from Pobelter (who's good) and Shiphtur (who's no longer in his prime) are the only resident NA midlaners that I can think of that started with NA. =/

Ale non è male2 votes

NA, imho lacks all the competitive underwood before arriving to CS, that's the core problem of NA

NA is the only region where people still think that the jump straight from soloQ stardom to competitive play in CS level (or LCS) is something doable with success as rule and not as exception To get in LCS you should go thorugh various steps in competitive gaming, beating various level of competitivenes from local semi-pro team, to beat the teams of minor organizaton, to win local tournaments, to win some tournament with teams from different countries, to finally compete to play in CS, then compete in CS and then finally coming to LCS

In Na there isn't anything like that, you can literally get 3 solo Q Challenger players and get straight to CS, which end up to players to not develop because to be noticed in soloQ you must focus on playing only carry champs, and so you can't develp an effective champ pool or leanr to play in various meta and you end up with players which, barring exceptions, are pretty much limited and get trumped by international competition

Axis the Dragon1 votes

Yeah. Somewhat of a shame. Still, they've had some success with that method. Hopefully they'll prove me wrong this season, though. xD

Ale non è male1 votes

Define "success". Because, if the success is having half of NALCS made by imports, and have close to 0 internal young talent, while being stomped by the rest of the World at international stage, I wouldn't call it a success Some guys have had success in their individual team or for themsevles, but they re the exception, not the rule

I see a lot ofguys here and on reddit complaining about Riot blocking the 3rd party scene becausethey don't allow long international tournaments with LCS teams (allowing at best formats like IEM one) given the LCS schedule that occupy most of the year, then why people don't ask to these 3rd party orgs to make tournaments between the best CS teams from the various regions? For smaller regions it would be a godsend gift cause it will allow those teams to acquire the experience they are NOT getting internally given the lack of competitive tournament before CS - NA has had HTC Ascension and only one another tournament between ranked 5/CS team IN THE ENTIRE SEASON 5, which absolutely make no sense as there are lot of 3rd party organizers that could do those -

Earl Eulrich1 votes

I wonder why there are no really good mid or top players in NA (as in purely from NA and not originally an import)

well, most of the really talented guys don´t seem willing to make a career out of it (e.g. maple that is easily LCS level but stays in the CS because he doesnßt want to invest as much time - or megazero that had been the best toplaner NA has had so far and then just vanished) - and for the guys willing to do it there´s somehow rarly a chance to play and grow, as everyone seems to expecting instant results and if that doesnßt work they´ll bring in import-players.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

Yoo for real megazero didn't he win that riven tournament? Or was that someone else? Anyways, yeah, I wonder what happened to him

Earl Eulrich1 votes

yea, he won the best riven na tournament (using tp before it had been a thing).

Ale non è male2 votes

Because they find the loophole that they are not Team Coast, but a different organization that was buying the spot while Coast organization remains alive and is probably going to play in CS And, by the way, the problem arises mostly because Coast was probably the org that was selling the spot for a cheaper price, because if they were buying Dig, TiP, T8 spot what they did would have been perfectly legal

The worst thing, imho, is not the "lacked" player protection, but is the fact that, once again, an American org builded their roster aorund imports and not local players. I can understand Chris and Shrimp not making the cut because of the import status and they didn't want to be locked with them when searching for imported players (even though Shrimp could have deserved a chance, imho), but it is really sad how a good player like Pekin Woof got completely screwed because the NRG org started to build their roster around GMB, and instead two mediocre to bad players like Moon and KonKwon were prized despite being worse than Pekin Woof (in comparision with their role), just because they were the first players available in those spots not covered by imports. That's why NA can't build talent, if you build around foreigners and then left out talented players, while filling with scrubs the remaining roles, you are going to frustarte your own talents and keep around your own mediocre players

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

Altec, moon, and konkwon are all NA players though and Konkwon was on the Coast org roster I believe. Shrimp was likely dropped bc he was a KR import and while he's good I think you'd struggle to make a case that it's better to have shrimp on your team than GBM or impact.

As a side note a large amount of the lack of player protection came from the Coast organization contracts. Multiple players on the Coast roster that was sold had contracts that expired on 11/16 so it wasn't even replacing them, but rather just not renewing their contract. Are you arguing that an organization should be obligated to renew a contract w/ every player on their team and not consider free agents before making a decision on who to hire?

Ale non è male2 votes

[{quoted}](name=T RexHasTinyArms,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=PhltL7if,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-11-17T19:06:32.624+0000)

Altec, moon, and konkwon are all NA players though and Konkwon was on the Coast org roster I believe. Shrimp was likely dropped bc he was a KR import and while he's good I think you'd struggle to make a case that it's better to have shrimp on your team than GBM or impact.

As a side note a large amount of the lack of player protection came from the Coast organization contracts. Multiple players on the Coast roster that was sold had contracts that expired on 11/16 so it wasn't even replacing them, but rather just not renewing their contract. Are you arguing that an organization should be obligated to renew a contract w/ every player on their team and not consider free agents before making a decision on who to hire?

I don't think you understtod my post I don't think that what NRG did was particularly wrong overall, I was pointing out another aspect When you have multiple options to choose what LCS spot to buy among multiple options (TiP, CST, T8, GV), one of the deciding factors about what spot you should buy, should be what kind of roster are you inheriting from the previous org, since obviously you want to stay in LCS and succeed after buying your spot In this situation, when NRG bought their spot, the roster they "inheritered" was Chris-shrimp-Pekin woof-Mash-Konkwon Let's say you want to drop the CST imports because you think you can buy better imports than what you have, which is fair. What of the guys in the previous roster with NA residency are you going to keep? The best one in comparison with their own role talent pool in NA , no? Pekin woof, imho, among NA mid laners was better than Mash among NA ADCs, KonKwon among NA supports and Moon among NA junglers The most logical thing would have been: keep Pekin as mid, grab Altec that was on the market as good NA ADC, get the two best imports in the other positions, and then fill out the team witht he best available NA player in the remaining role, no? Instead, what NRG did was: let's pick the import star (GMB), let's take the other import star(Impact), let's grab Altec in the market, and then fill out the other roles with the best NA guys we could find

See? They built their team around their import stars and then filled out with NA, instead of building a NA core and then search the best imports that could fit with that NA core And that's a key mistake, because as a result, they screwed a talented NA player and prized two mediocre NA players. Then it's not difficult to find out why NA does not produce talent. Moon is a guy who has been trashed in CS series/LCS promos by Crumbzz (mid to bottom tier LCS jungler), Shrimp (not believed to be good enough by NRG to use an imports slot for him, aka believed to be not more than a mid/bottom tier LCS jungler), Porpoise (mid to bottom tier LCS jungler), and it could be argued he was on par or by the way wasn't much better than a true CS level player/ gatekeeper like Hard Why should he be in LCS while Pekin should be screwed? Only because NRG is the latest of the NA org that build teams around imports rather than NA players, with the result that good Na players could be penalized while mediocre ones rewarded by the fact that they don't play in roles of imported players

EDIT: And this aattitude backfire the same team first, because going with mediocre guys in multiple position is going to limit your potential when you face top teams in your own region (NA) or internationally where teams have strong players in all the position and can create mismatches in their favour by exploiting the mediocre NA players you were getting to prioritizethe imports in the construction of team roster

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

Yeah, it's surprising he amount I agree w/ you on a lot of those but we also disagree on some very key points. I think the biggest thing we disagree on is what was sold to RNG. The contracts for Chris and Mash expired on 11/16, and I believe 1 other player had the same date, but I can't remember if it was Pekin or Shrimp. Either way it creates a very different scenario for RNG than buying the space AND the line up.

So essentially the come into the line up of KonKwon, and either Wolf or Shrimp (can't remember which). If it's wolf I actually like the concept of getting a top tier top and jungle plus a free agent LCS ADC (apollo, altec, and freeze all had not announced teams yet if I remember right so it seems like the best pool of free agents to bring in established talent to shore up the line up). However, I could see going GBM over a jungle because the talent pool of high caliber jungles is smaller and the mid lane for NA is a little weak imo (bjerg is pretty good, Fenix, Pob, and maybe Huhi have decent potential, but overall weak compared to many other regions so a good spot to bring in a known factor that you think can punish the weakness of that role in the region). With fewer strong jungles overall the price is likely higher, so the cost benefit might not have been there. It's an experimental line up, not one that was top 4 last season and you're trying to improve by replacing one player and deciding between mid or jg to replace, so on some level you have to do a cost analysis. I think Pekin looked like he had the potential to keep up w/ NA mid laners, but he's not going to dominate, so to justify going w/ him over someone like GBM who I think will do well mechanically and create some strength for the team vs NA talent, you'd have to have a jungle w/ a big impact. Who is available? Rush (who may be C9 which would have out bid RNG, and I'm honestly surprised and think it has to be enjoying NA if he stays in NA bc I think after his season and performance in KR solo que he'd have some tryouts for KR teams while he's there), Dexter (who is good but wasn't a huge impact for CLG), maybe one of the KR players who left CN, but they probably want to go back to KR and are too high a price for RNG too bc they are probably still considered tier 1 in the world and GBM isn't (but might be top tier in NA for mid lane). There aren't many good options for a second tier import that will out class the NA jungle talent the way I think GBM has the potential to, so I think it comes down to options and cost honestly.

The point is they had to renegotiate contracts for players and w/out knowing what that looked like I don't think we really have a good picture of it. In the NFL you draft your top players then work out a contract. In the LCS you get to do contracts w/out committing to the player first. If you think of some of the NFL drafts where players didn't start for weeks bc the player was asking for a ton of money and the organization didn't want to pay someone at their draft spot the kind of money they expect to shell out for a higher pick, I'm sure some of them would have loved to be able to say "nope, we're dropping you and going to make an offer to the guy picked next for your position" but they can't do that bc another team already has that player and the contract. If Chris and Mash are considered mediocre talent for LCS and good talent for challenger series, there may have been an issue when it came to making new contracts. If Altec and Mash ask for the same amount when you're looking at talent bc Mash expects to be payed more now that the team is in the LCS and not Challenger, you'd be fairly stupid to go w/ Mash over Altec for the same price imo. Maybe the organization wanted to keep wolf, but when contract negotiations came around it was the same price to get him vs GBM and they just thought it would be something they'd regret turning down.

As for "this is why NA doesn't build talent" I think there is a big error in that logic. The first is that I'd bet money Pekin gets picked up by one of the rosters w/ giant holes in it currently bc he looks like he at least would be competitive, and if he has the potential to grow and good synergy w/ the team he'd be a great investment if the org feels like they can not get relegated w/ that roster. The second is that I think it is more related to infrastructure for player development than it is to organizational choices in terms of why NA doesn't have more development options. The first infrastructure issue is addressed well in an interview w/ Scarra I watched recently where he pointed out something I've never thought of. Not only is KR a fairly small country compared to NA, a huge % of their population that plays league is located in Seoul. Teams have much greater access to players and it is easier to see if it is worth taking the risk of signing a player. In KR a team can speak w/ a challenger/masters player and express interest in giving them a try out, and they pay for a bus/train ticket (usually just local transport in Seoul) for the player to come to the gaming house for the weekend or something and live w/ the team and practice for 48-72 hours. If the team gets along and the player fits well into their practice they can offer them a spot either on the team or as a sub and help the player grow into top talent. If the team doesn't like the new player's personality, or if he doesn't perform well w/ them in scrims, they can send the guy home and not have lost more than the price of food that weekend and a subway ticket. If an NA team wants to do the same, but the challenger player is in Boston, the price is astronomically higher just to see if the guy fits in w/ the team. This means NA can't use solo que to scout talent nearly as easily as smaller geographical regions like KR. The second issue is the structure of developmental leagues and sister teams. In KR sister teams used to be huge before riot changed the rules. Teams could bring on talent they scouted not just as back ups trying to improve but actually as a second team. If they developed into a top tier team, the org had two premier teams and was rewarded for the effort of developing new players on a second team. If the whole team didn't develop but a star player did they could swap players between teams and still get benefits from the second team (plus it kept players motivated to keep working on each team so they could move up/weren't replaced). Alternatively, you could look at something like baseball which has triple A ball developmental teams that build up talent to move into the majors. Players are with a particular org on their feeder team that provides players for their top team. I hate baseball, so I'm not sure how it works w/ contracts and players who are good moving up to other organizations if there isn't an open spot on the organization that they play for currently, but I think the system at least shows that a "feeder" league to develop talent can exist in a way it doesn't right no for lol.

Ale non è male1 votes

The legal issue is that CST were a team qualifying from CS, which mean that the org or the guys who were buying the org should have played at least 3/5 of the CST players at least for a game. Even if CST contract were expiring, CST or the guys that were buying the org should have renewed their contract to fulfill the obligations with Riot to keep their LCS spot NRG found the loophole that they bough the spot but not the org, and what has been discussed by many was if this loophole was correct or not I didn't really wanted to tackle the question in my post, though

The point that I was raising up, was that imho, NRG built the roster with a reasoning harmful for the NA scene, and even for themselves as an org, because as the end result they screwed up a good NA player that was better (compared to his role) than the two guys (compared to their own role) they actually ended up to have in their team at the end of the reasoning process

The big error in logic is that it would have make far more sense have Pekin and an import jungler than GMB and Moon, but they ended up with the second option because instead of building up a NA core first, and then grab the best imports available, they went for import first and then filled out with NA , which is harmful for themselves because they'll have these "fillers" guys suffering a lot when facing top teams, and harmful for NA scene because you are actually screwing Na guys that would deserve a chance and prize guys that won't deserve a chance It is not a matter of options and costs, because potentially you could pick up a ReignOver-like player from KR and he would still dominate NA jungle scene maybe even more than GBM will do among NA mid scene (and ReignOver wasn't considered a tier 1 player before joining Fnatic and was taken on for cheap price)

The whole "if he is good he would be picked up by another team" logic does not work, because spots in LCS are limited, and I don't see why if NRG is doing that, other teams would/should not follow with the same reasoning. Also, there are mid-laner NA free agents at the moment like Pobelter and goldenglue which are proven not wahsed up LCS talent with more experience than Pekin (heck, Pob actually won summer split) and imports who have yet played in NA like Keane which will become future NA residents in little time, and the number of spots is limited because most of the mid positions are yet filled The infrastructure and development system excuse is bullcrap, cause EU is pretty much similar to NA in these regards and 4 seasons out of 5 EU has beaten NA (S4 being the exception because of EU teams shooting theirselves in their foot) The problem is that if everyone goes by the way NRG legitimately goes, you are going to keep promoting mediocre NA talent that you will then complain about and will try to replace with 2 tier imports or other mediocre guys, and will leeave behind good and promising NA players

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

Yeah I'm interested to see how riot handles the issue. There is a lot of fan investment and bickering on boards and reddit, but what fans want and what will grow the league long term isn't necessarily the same. It's going to be interesting. If you offend the fans to the point they stop watching or make the game not interesting you no longer have a market. At the same time, if you make the system so convoluted or stacked against any team at the bottom in terms of being a viable business investment, then you limit the entire league's growth by driving away investment and limiting growth to top teams or grass roots programs, or larger companies investing in challenger rather than building the LCS (so delay the growth explosion hitting now by 2-3 splits bc some will back out if they cannot get investment in the section that is more profitable).

Ale non è male1 votes

Honestly, Coast sucking a lot in next Split and being relegated to then going on again winning CS and so on in the long term would have been worse than the situation that happened with NRG bypassing the actual rule with a loophole now, but making a competitve team that in the end makes NA LCS more interesting Fans bickering is more about a human feeling about the guys "deserving a chance" and being screwed by their previous org that has screwed their players in the past too, than think that was better to having the CST guys competing instead of this new NRG lineup

I am tackling another point, once again. The way NRG has builded the roster, will give them nice results in the short/mid term, but in the long term I don't think they have gone with the right reasoning, which is a thing that is going to harm both them as org and NA scene, especially players, overall NA isn't going to produce talent if they overall reward homegrown mediocre players over good homegrown players just because they happened to be lucky to play in roles different from the roles of imported players. There will be a point where NRG and other organizations in their situation will recognize they have weak links in their rosters, and they won't be able to find upgrades for these weak links in NA because they have not created a system that do not develop the true talents but rather let mediocre players reach the highest levels just because they are the best fillers available in those situations

TSM, despite having a long history of having imports (now thy even have 3 Euros!) , basically has build their roster more on their NA players that these new orgs are doing, and that's why they are the most successful org in NA They saw the "NA resident" Bjergsen doing the shotcalling wasn't panning well, so they got him, then they got best NA players they could get and it happened it was DL in a carry position, so building their NA core of carry players and then went on to fill out the team and search guys that could handle the shotcall job freeing their NA core carries from this job. In the end they got Sven who was also a primary shotcaller on SK over some other carry import jungler, KaSing that was a vocal guy in his team calls as secondary shotcaller and glue guy in H2K, and picked Hauntzer over guys like Zion or Quas because they valued more the shotcalling ability that the could gave them more than the straight carry potential, given that it fitted more with the needs of their NA core of carries This new TSM roster is more NA centric that NRG roster despite having actually less NA players

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

Too true. Regardless of NRG controversy, this is the best preseason. The option for players who played in multiple regions means Bjergsen officially became NA bc he chose us over EU (yeah it's the only thing that would make sense for his job) and w/ Sven moving to TSM I'm still not sure how "Svenskeren, helping TSM win games since worlds 2014" hasn't become a meme, but it makes me laugh every time. As a side note do you know which way Dexter declared bc I know he was thinking of going NA (which if he did, Dexter would still be a solid upgrade over moon I'm pretty sure).

PS I think I remember something about CJ swapping out most of their players, and I know he's high profile enough it wouldn't happen, but if NRG had gone like Shy, Pekin, Altec, KonKwon, and then a jungle upgrade over shrimp that was maybe high talent but less known like Beast, or Rush when he first signed I would have been such a fan of that line up bc even though Shrimp was probably the player on Coast I was most interested in (I think w/ all the openings Shrimp and Pekin will still be in the LCS this season from what I saw in their promos, but that may be me overestimating), I could understand the investment needing to bring in an upgrade at the position if they use an import slot for jg bc he is definitely still a developing player (albeit w/ good potential).

Ale non è male1 votes

Dexter declared NA I think. Even if as import he could still find a team in EU, and there is no reason why he should waste an opportunity to cash in from these new rich NA org if they need Na players to round out their team

OblivionsMight1 votes

i read each your responses and sorry but perkin not even that good honestly i get your point he should of had his chance to play, but don't make an average mid laner seem like top teir talent

Ale non è male1 votes

Pekin is not super good and is not top talent, but he has performed far better than what Moon did in CS, that's the core problem Na doesn't actually reward their homegrown talent, prizing guys worse than them just because they happen to be more suited as fillers in certain roles

OblivionsMight1 votes

Moon is also new to the pro scene and he is young like 18 i believe he got room to grow and expand as a player and they play 2 different role moons a jungler and perkin is mid lane i would hope perkin had more cs.

Ale non è male2 votes

But Moon wasn't really good in his CS run either. If you got beaten by mid to bottom LCS caliber junglers like Crumbzz, Shrimp (NRG didn't find him good enough to spend an import slot for him) and Porpoise and basically are on par with a CS gatekeeper like Hard, you are not deserving to play in LCS yet Being young doesn't mean that you have to be rushed when you have shown that you are not ready and when you do not actually deserve it Moon is young, yes, and has potential, yes (even if I'm not sold on his potential, tbh, he looks like the typical soloQ jungler which relies on the common carry junglers to succeed), but he wasn't good enough to show that he can survive in LCS, and will probably end up being trashed He is one of the guy that need more seasoning in CS, at least for a split to prove he is better than CS caliber players and is ready to go in LCS... NA scene is strange in the way it treats NA players, you keep blocking potentially talented guys which are not hyped because you think they can't be good enough as the imports you can get, and then you want to rush guys which have not shown yet they belong to LCS level because they are young and super hyped, meanwhile letting mediocre fillers guy playing for far longer than deserved

Seiferoth2 votes

They need to stop letting teams sell their teams and completely abandon the previous team... I hear Gravity wants to sell too I'm like what the heck... guys what the heck.. IF THEY WANT TO DROP OUT, OK DROP OUT! and Hold a mini tournament in the Challenger Series to replace teams that drop out.... bad Riot, Bad Riot!

Ale non è male1 votes

They don't want to drop out, they want to cash in their success, which is different. You can't really stop that if you want to keep people investing in the game. you can argue if they need to fulfill all the previous obligations of the previous org, but that's a different matter

Hangsterr1 votes

The English tho

RichardLe1 votes

how many imports can a team have?

Focodoco1 votes

2, 2 years after a import has played in na they are now american and any player that was on an na team is grandfathered in. so in 6 months piglet will be a na player but its 2 imports per team

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