What Do You Think NA Should Do To Be BETTER? (NA LCS)

Hafa Adai·Nov 10, 2015·3 votes·3,034 views

As a NA player like many others duh. It's kinda sad to see NA just fall off short by just something as a WHOLE region. I know NA has to be more serious, more focused, more professional, more driven, and basically everything. But like what is it about NA that we just can't do it? We have many many players, we have the "NA Legends" but what I'm meaning is what can we actually do as in creating stronger teams/and having it more relevant when it comes to an international stage? Cause the only thing we have under our belt is winning IEM and that's about it. And Season 5 Worlds looked so nice at the start for NA then we just threw super hard. I've been thinking about it a lot and I just want some thoughts on what LCS as a whole lacks that I don't see. I don't know I just want to stop only having faith in NA and have actual confidence in NA.

What do you think?

48 Comments

xJLx MCHammerNov 10, 20153 votes

It's all about adaption. Look back at worlds! They all had one strategy, after that, they don't have anything. Why is this? Because the entire year, every team in LCS was doing the same strategy. No one was trying to adapt to it, all they did was trying to one-up their opponent using the same strategy.

It's not about creativity. It's about not knowing how to adapt to strategy. It's about being naive and not wanting to try something new. You don't have to be creative,'you can mimic other teams from different regions, Na just did not want to

RandomoniumNov 10, 20152 votes

I think the big thing is NA lacks the infrastructure of other regions. Let's face it, esports is not as big a deal in this country. Even though league is extremely popular for a game only a tiny percentage of our population ever considers being a pro gamer. Competition breeds greatness and there just isn't the same level of high level competition in NA yet. I think this will change though in the next few years as the new generation of gamers grow up.

Also, I feel like NA doesn't have the same depth of strategy as the Korean teams and they don't adapt as well after games. NA mechanically can keep up with Korea, we just aren't thinking enough moves ahead. This is why we saw such a dominant performance by NA in the first week of world's followed by a flop and twitch in the second week.

Ale non è maleNov 10, 20151 votes

{quoted} This is why we saw such a dominant performance by NA in the first week of world's followed by a flop and twitch in the second week.

Only C9 was "dominant" (and even in those won games you could see the other teams playing suboptimally), TSM was a plain disaster and CLG was stomped by Koo and won a really close game vs FW that was playing with a terribad ADC they replaced after that game (kkramer substitued by NL) and was going FW way until the ADCs went to late game and the huge difference in skills between ADCs showed up

SKT OTTO GODNov 12, 20151 votes

cant agree more. likewise the KR consider E-sports as a very serious thing

iamleburkNov 13, 20151 votes

I dont even think it's infastructure; I think that the overall level of play is lower in NA. But it looks like NA will be pulling a LOT of imports next split, some of them top of their region (Freeze/Sven/Kasing/arguably GBM). Better players=better region, just look what bjergsen did for us.

DurrikenNov 10, 20152 votes

I believe its about strong coaches and adaptive players. This worlds more than ever picks and bans won games.

iamleburkNov 13, 20151 votes

Those pick numbers are a bit skewed by the new patch. But I think people aren't realizing what is going on in NA atm. Literally half of the teams (5/10) that played in summer split wont be in spring split. Dignitas, Gravity, Team8, NME, and TDK are all being replaced (with Coast/RNG) or being bought out by some big org, one of those orgs being a freaking NBA team (that means an org worth more than Riot...). Money means imports, and NA is going to be the new China. It's already started, we've already brought in Freeze Kasing GBM and Svenskeren, and we are only a month into the offseason. Hell, just off of this I'm predicting C9 to be bottom tier (unless they get an import in top or jungle) next split. Our region is being injected with talent right now, and will be much stronger next year; it might not be because of NA talent, but it will happen.

TurquoiseYoshiNov 10, 20152 votes

NA just isn't a good place for gamers. If you're a gamer in Korea, you're normal, and you're encouraged to game a lot. If you're a gamer in the US, you're made fun of by pretty much all mainstream media and not really given any respect.

The Bíg TicketNov 10, 20151 votes

I think they lack creativity and quick adaption to both meta changes and ingame scenarios. Once they have found a good strategy they are good at excecuting it (CLG and C9 did it very well at the first week at worlds) but when you surprise them with sth they rarely manage to deal with it.

Stars ShaperNov 10, 20151 votes

What I saw lacking from all the "Occidental" teams is the lack of a team tactic. All they did was picking champions with who they felt comfortable playing without neither wombo-combos nor actual synergy while their enemies had at least one of those and dictated each teamfight.

XantakNov 10, 20151 votes

Infrastructure. Coaching. Innovation. SKT-1 and many of the Oriental teams have a great system with multiple subs, and in the case of SKT-1, they swap out their subs on a whim, and devastate the opposing team with Easyhoon and T0M. Not only do you give teammates a breather in between games and time to reflect/learn, but you also give subs that MUCH NEEDED, valuable experience against the opposition, whilst performing on stage.

Be more active in coming up with new strategies, rather than sitting on their collective asses and copying other regions. Utilize a lot of oddball picks(like Keane, Kikis, and PoE did, picks that nobody sees coming in various lanes). Learn how to be more aggressive, dare to take risks and stand by them, win or lose. NA better find their balls fast, because other regions won't wait for you to farm all damn day and get to "late game." Be modular in strategies as well, so that it doesn't become a one trick pony show(I'm looking at you, C9, with your early game push to mid, and reliance on Baron Nashor buff to be relevant, TSM with your Bjergsen and 9 wards focus, and Team Liquid, with your Fenix/Azir crutch), and get torn apart. Rather than being along for the ride in the "meta" clown car, go against it, or break it for something else.

It seems that LCS teams are slow to learn from mistakes, with players that either lack passion, or tilt too easy. Or there are prima donna players on teams.

As far as being "professional," that's a relative term.

The LCS teams need to quicken the pace. Taking 35+ minutes to be relevant in a match is a massive, glaring weakness against the other regions.

Kal Vas FlamNov 10, 20151 votes

Well Doublelift doesn't believe in having any kind of life beyond League and we saw how well that mentality worked for him. To be honest you can only be so good at something, there's a point where maybe 8 hours of practice a day yields the same results as 16 hours of practice a day. There is a cap for everyone. I think NA needs to rely less on individual skill and more on team play. Maybe stretching outside the meta a bit more would help as well. Or, if they are going to rely on one hyper carry to win games then just do a better job of protecting him.

Ale non è maleNov 10, 20151 votes

The main problem for NA LCS didn't even relate to LCS, that's the real point, and as long as people won't acknowledge that, NA will generaly remain behind the skill curve of the rest of the world

This is the list of tournament organized throughout all the year http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/ESportspedia:Tournaments

Now, exclude LCS, CS and IEM, and look at how many tournaments were held in EU and how much were held in NA - and keep in mind that the list is largely incomplete about Eu tournaments as a lot of local/national tournaments connected to the main videogames/comics espos are not mentioned and even some international future tournaments hasn't been added yet to the list as the ROG tournament 2015 that has just ended the pre-qualifyng round and has a 30000 euro prize pool -

See the difference? How is supposed for potential talents to grow up and become world level players if they can't steadily train and fight strong competition over time even since BEFORE entering CS/LCS environment? This season EU has produced young fresh world class talent like Niels, Febiven, PoE, Hjarnan and others(Pepii, Hylissang, Vizi, Godfred, ecc...) that were all at their first LCS season. This means that, even after a bad season caused by a combination of different unfavorable circumstances (problems into single organizations that trap some top talent, some other strong guy banned for personal reasons, some players declining in skills that are going to retire, etc..) , you are going to get new talent to boost up the level and challenge the guys that were at the top of the standings previously to push tem back to improve, and that means that even if you are losing some of the best players in the region like, for example, an xpeke fore retirement and a freeze because he goes to another region, you have yet their replacements ready to play at very high level

How many rookies of this caliber has NA produced lately? You know the answer. And why NA does not produces these players? Well, how the hell is NA supposed to produce these players if they have no training ground? How are you going to detect what could be the next true talents if you have very few tournaments organized and with a lot of veteran gatekeepers, and "CS ringers" are going to partecipate in those to earn a spot in a pro team, along with occasional teams created just for the event by solo q stars/freaks with no intention to go pro ?

Frigid Ice StormNov 10, 20151 votes

They need to learn from other regions, adapt to those strats, and wreck everyone with it. In worlds, every NA team lacked superb teamwork and synergy

kJsNov 10, 20151 votes

Creativity and the right environment. Esports is massive in the leading region, that is Korea. The people you play with treat it like any other sport over there. It's not just gaming to them, it's a sport that you have excel at.

EPIKONNov 11, 20151 votes

Practice more against better competition i.e. play ranked in Korean server.

The time spent, invested, and sacrificed by Korean players compared to other regions is unmatched.

iamleburkNov 13, 20151 votes

Actually what they are doing right now. It might not sound like the most patriotic solution, but huge orgs and huge amount of money has been introduced to the NALCS this preseason, including an NBA team (thats a company worth half a billion btw). This means imports. We imported bjergsen, and made a team that challenge Samsung and won IEM. Now? We are importing Freeze, Svenskeren, GBM, Alex Ich, and Kasing and that's just what we know from the first month of off season. NA will be a really competetive region next year, but it wont be because of NA talent. Its also looking like Forgiven wants to go to NA also, and he isn't alone in wanting that. Personally, I dont expect TL, C9, or TIP being very good next year, just off of the sheer amount of talent being poured into the scene that i don't think they will be able to contend with. Unless they manage to pick up some good replacements too.

Main point is, literally half of the teams that will be playing this split are new orgs. Only CLG, C9, TSM, TIP, and TL remain. Everyone else has been bought out by a new org or replaced

Ale non è maleNov 13, 20151 votes

The problem is that if some imports does not work for any reason, NA would still be in trouble See China at Worlds, they did what NA is doing and ended up badly

And I think C9 will be actually good next season, tbh. As long as they have no shotcalling problems, and it looks like hai is remaining, they have one of the best duo of carries in Sneaky and incarnati0n in the entire west, so they will be at the top of the standings once again

iamleburkNov 13, 20151 votes

Uhh china became a much stronger region this year than they were last year. If china didn't import, they would be on NA's level. They flopped at worlds, because of a specific coarse of events, but you can't really call it a weak region. The meta didn't fit their top team, their second place team was having heavy management issues (Apparently GodV and Acorn barely practiced for the month prior), and the third team only got their because the qualifiers were accidentally played on a completely different patch. It looks like Hai is moving to support, so it really depends on who they get to jungle. Having a carry mid lane wont be as important as having a carry bot lane, but sneaky is going to have some stiff af competition next split. Also the snowbally meta completely works against them; what good is late game shotcalling if the game never makes it past 25 minutes?

And incarnation/Sneaky is certainly not the best mid/adc combo in the west. The new TSM lineup (Bjerg/DL), FNC (Febi/Rekkles), and new OG(POE/Niels) are just objectively better. I agree that incarnation is good, but don't overhype him just yet, and Sneaky has improved significantly but he still isn't the best ADC in the west by a good margin

Ale non è maleNov 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Uhh china became a much stronger region this year than they were last year.

AHAHAHAHAH That's laughable. In S4 China placed a team in the final and one in semifinal...ok, they got the team in the final because of Samsung Teams battle in semifinal, but still, they had 2 of the best 4 teams in the world, and people were actually giving Royal Club chances to win it all The only way the could have gotten better was placing two teams in the final and/or winning with a team, how they were a better region?

C9 had success at Worlds upon early snowballing and tower melting, so they can definitively adapt to that style if it is required, and Hai no matter the role, is a very good shotcaller at ANY stage in the game

I said that incarnati0n/Sneaky are one of the best, and you basically placed them as top 4 in West and top 2 in NA, so why they shouldn't C9 finish high in the standings if they have a carry ADC (and Sneaky IS a carry adc undoubtely) and the good shotcalling to make also their other carry perform?

iamleburkNov 13, 20151 votes

Because competition got better? NA also did better in S4 worlds; the problem is China and NA do not have enough homegrown talent to keep the region going. EU and KR do. Royal club had a shot at winning it all? And LGD didn't? China didn't flunk because of imports, they fluked because of three different reasons, two of them being chinese. A) Shit chinese bot lane for IG, B) shit jungler and shitty practice ethics. EDG was more a meta problem than anything else, but even then it was mostly the chinese jungler not adapting to the top carry meta. It's the Chinese that fucked up at worlds, not the Koreans in China. And do you honestly think the Chinese would have done better this worlds without the imports? The top only chinese player who looked like he deserved to be at worlds was Clearlove, all the other ones looked like they could've replaced one of Bjergsen's wards and no one would have noticed.

Ok I am a C9 fan, and i love hai and sneaky, but them reading the meta != shotcalling. Hai is probably the single best shotcaller in NA, but even in S3 when they were tearing people apart, C9's weaknesses was early game. C9 got lucky because they came up with a strategy in this patch that most people did not expect. Once that strategy was exposed, poof, 4-0. And if these minion changes go through, it will be nothing but early game.

Sorry about the Sneaky/Incar duo, misread what you said, thought you called them the best. I agree they are top 2 in NA atm. But I don't know if that'll be enough to keep them high tier in spring split. It really depends on the other imports. I do not rate sneaky above Freeze or Forgiven, but I would (this is debatable, but as a fan i get to overhype) say he is the better NA adc at the moment. Double lift being immediately behind him. Incarnation im not as sold on, there are definitely imports that could knock him down.

Actually me as a C9 fan is the main reason i hate the minion changes... Every other preseason change im fine with, but that one specifically fucks over my favorite NA team (and i think will make the game boring in general to watch)

Ale non è maleNov 13, 20151 votes

NA did better at S4 Worlds because they took the spots left open by the failures of EU teams (namely SK playing wihout Sven and going o-3 in the first week of groups and Alliance being Kabumed in the group where C9/TSM were) China was strong, really strong spring split, but then they got worse and ended up in failing at S5, being outplayed by teams of the other regions (except NA) Royal had a chance because they get to final and they had done really werll before getting to the final, LGD was really ridicoulously bad from finish to the end in comparison with the expectations and teams like KT and OG EDG was the best Chinese team entering the world (really, they didn't get the 1st seed because they had one bad week in the entire season during LPL summer playoffs and then immediatley bounced back), and even them were looking outmatched vs SKT and FNC and even H2k which was basically the third EU team (aside from seeding) gave them moderate amount of trouble China could have done well at the World without Koreans, because actually Chinese players wouldn't even regressed so much from S4 counting on Koreans to carry them, and they wouldn't have had comunication issues in the team between Koreans and Chinese players...so, the China team failure is not Korean's fault, but to argue that China became a better region this year is laughable, at least if you are talking about the post MSI were LPL overall was really shabby, and at Worlds it showed that Chinese teams weren't just "sandbagging", but they just weren't that good, barring maybe EDG

C9 actual roster is different from S3, though. Hai wasn't the flashiest mid laner ever (heck, he seemed relatively mechainically weak in 1 vs 1), and he is now going to play sup, Lemon who wasn't the flashiest sup is retired, Meteos which was used to farm early in game and being especially good at that making him kinda passive early game (which was his strength in S4 and weakness in S5) is not on the roster for now but with the Challenger team C9 won't have particular problems with early game, imho

Sneaky/incarnati0n together are top 2, till I see a team having both a mid and ADC as good or better than them. At this point even if, for example, RNG would pick Freeze, i would still pick C9 above them because at this point incaranti0n > the Alex Ich that left EU because had trouble to get back to LCS

iamleburkNov 14, 20151 votes

Sandbagging is part of the shitty chinese scrim culture that killed LGD. And i dont know how you think EDG was the better team entering worlds, this clearly is not their meta and LGD was looking like they could go even with SKT ffs. Not one of the top chinese analysts said EDG>LGD. You talk about EDG having one bad week so did LGD! Acorn went from arguably the best top laner in the world with consistently amazing TP plays and shit to a guy who made Dyrus look good. That's what we call a bad week. Especially seeing as how they beat Origen pretty handily in week two.

The idea that imports are to blame for China's failure at worlds astounds me. LGD choked big time, but you can't act like China wasn't a strong region coming into this. Even monte, a huge KT fan and the best analyst in the world, predicted LGD over KT. The LGD vs EDG series and even the LGD vs QG series was miles ahead any play we've seen in the NA play off tournament, and certainly above the EULCS play offs (albeit by less of a margin). And according to pretty much every analyst, they were on par or better than the KOO vs KT series. If this was a import problem, we would have been seeing it all year, and analysts would have factored in communication issues to predict outcomes, like they did for IG. They didn't, because from all their games previously, LGD and EDG didn't have them. To argue the China last year would have gone anywhere this worlds is laughable; most of those players are in china still, why didn't they make it to worlds? And what's this BS about KR players making the Chinese players lazy? are you sure those players weren't just sandbagging in case they ever were needed to play well? Chinese players just are not good on a world class level. They have had some strong players, especially in ADC position, but from watching LPL this split it was clear how big the skill gap truly is between LPL and LCK.

My point on Cloud9 was even at their peak their, their early game was flawed. And bot carry meta will be coming up with these ADC changes, so I would argue Freeze having the advantage is more beneficial to the team. Although I am really curious to see how Alex Ich does, i really dont know what to expect from him so i will not call him better or worse. And I dont really know how NA can get any weaker than this year. Imports will do the same as they did for China, improve the region as a whole while local fans bitch at the imports for every minor slip up, even when its the NA players slip up.

Btw, based on meta changes, im also predicting OG>FNC in this coming split. OG picked up powerofevil and have a bot carry style already, which i think will give them the final edge they need to best fnatic.

Ale non è maleNov 14, 20151 votes

Sanbagging is the excuse Chinese teams were using when they were losing. And yeah, I thought EDG was the best team coming out from China, because they were the best team for all the season excluding that single playoff week, given how they immediately rebounded in gauntlet...I mean, EDG lost baldy to iG in playoffs, and then stomped them in the gauntlet after that iG beat QG that was looking pretty strong, so it should have been clear that they were number 1 in the region and that single week was a fluke. LGD didn't appear in good shape in all the summer split barring for playoffs

Imports are not to blame for China failure, when did i say them? It is just that Chinese teams and players this season stopped striving to improve because they count on Koreans to carry, and so chinese players was surpassed by the teams of the rest of the world. LPL has world class level players, and they'll show it next season, imho.

Cloud 9 at their peak had a lot of players which strength was late game. Now their roster is definitively changing, and their new roster should be a roster with players which are better in early game than their previous roster

Na is going to be better this season, mainly because there will be far less joke teams than what NA had this season, especially in Spring Split that was utter terribad 8actually in Summer Na play was getting better, but they had lost too ground to recover)

EU LCS is going to be really interesting this season, besides OG and FNC, ROCCAT was on the strong rise near the end of the season, and behind them many team could surprise

iamleburkNov 15, 20151 votes

Dude, LGD was literally inventing metas in their playoff games. And that "gauntlet run" was complete BS, it was accidentally played on the new patch, which was huge. QG should have gone to worlds over IG, they are a much better team, and would have at least put up a fight against FNC. EDG in playoffs and EDG at worlds were no different, they couldn't adapt to the meta. Not saying EDG was a bad team, but they certainly weren't the best team in China, and i dont think there are any analysts who would disagree with me. LGD at worlds was the biggest underperformance of a team since KOO Tigers at IEM. I know its hard to believe that they were a top 2 team in the world only a month before, but that's actually how it is. LGD were not overhyped at all coming into worlds; they completely underperformed. LGD in playoffs ≠ LGD at worlds, but EDG at playoffs = EDG at worlds.

I agree NA will be stronger next year, but perhaps for a different reason. I hope im wrong about C9, but I'm going to stick by my prediction. I've heard rumors of Roccat grabbing a really good roster (with Forgiven and Cabochard), but H2K seems to have fallen hard. So i think there will be a clear top 3 in EU, and a huge gap between them and the weaker teams. This is mostly because i think a lot of top EU players will be picked up by NA teams this split, same way last year we saw that Korean exodus.

Ale non è maleNov 15, 20151 votes

Dude, LGD ended up being number 2 Chinese team in Spring playoffs too Their gauntlet run was due to the fact that only EDG could stop them in China, and EDG went through a week of complete slump when they were trashed not only by LDG, but also by iG in 3rd place match... iG that they trashed less than 20 days later and that after being trashed by EDG sweeped theirselves QG

Heck, the whole sandbagging thing with China, was due to the fact that a team like LGD that finished 2nd in Spring (losing 3-2 vs the team that at MSI beat SKT and the best teams from the rest of the world) and 1st in the Summer was 6th in Spring RS and 5th in Summer RS while teams like Snake that completely bombed in both playoffs simply ended highly in RS standings because they got advantage of the teams that were not trying, aka sandbagging and teams like iG were talente dbut hugely insonsistent

EDG was by any measure, except from that single week in summer playoffs, the best team in China, LGD got overhyped because after MSI's EDG result everyone thought China was the best region. and because of people reading the names of the Korean talents Chinese teams had on paper, but all in all LGD weren't the best Chinese team except for that single week of total EDG slump

NA will be stronger because higher competition leads to higher level. Renegades has more talent and will likely play better than any team coming from CS since LMQ. This means that there will be less joke teams, and mediocre teams will be forced to get better or face relegation

I don't think at all there will be this huge talent gap between the top 3 level in EU and the others, at least not by the time next season end. The mid tier teams that were supposedly depleted or weakened still have pretty good players in position where there isn't lot of talent (H2K ADC, UoL Top and Sup, Gia Sup), so they have all the possibilities to pick up replacement in roles in which there is a bigger talent pool. The team promoted look promising, so a team could not just chill without the risk of ending up in relegation and will be forced to push themselves to be better to stay in LCS, which will lead to improvement over time

iamleburkNov 15, 20151 votes

No the sandbagging meme was more for QG and IG, many analysts rejected the term extremely and still rated LGD top 2. China wasn't over rated, they had impressive showings on a macro and a micro level both in their own region and at MSI. LGD being the most impressive by quite a bit. I dont know how you can say EDG beating IG means they were back in form, the patch changed, clearlove was on the crazy OP skarner at the time, and they had to sub out the crazy slumping Koro1 for AmazingJ. The point i am trying to make about EDG is they are not an inconsistent team, they played the same way they always have, but the meta simply was not in their favor. LGD vs EDG is a completely meta dependent matchup imo, but LGD was not playing at their prime for worlds. So again, LGD was not overhyped, it wasn't people overrating them, they were looking like a REALLY strong team coming into worlds, but for some reason they fell apart. The way they played before and during worlds was completely different. Oh and i would argue that KR was equal to China during the regular season, but i guess thats a little more debatable. KR might have an edge at the bottom tiers (Sbenu and ANC are probably better than CN's bottom) but at that point in time (directly after playoffs) the top teams were SKT>LGD>EDG>KT/KOO>Rest. SKT and LGD could have been switched around, and EDG was debatable, but coming into the tournament this was the general consensus. So tell me, was LGD a top contender coming to worlds or is there something you knew that top analysts in the world didn't? That said, ii think these ADC changes will help EDG too, they are like Origen in their bot carry style.

Yea thats my point on NA. There wasn't enough talent to fill full teams, but with imports that will change. You don't have massive deficiencies between roles like you did on TSM and C9. Just look at the upcoming TSM roster, I am by no means a TSM fan, but that shit looks like it has some huge international potential, and that team is as European as Fnatic. EU i think will look weak for a little bit, but i agree the homegrown talent they will eventually pull it back together.

Ale non è maleNov 16, 20151 votes

The only impressive showing was MSI and a pair of playoffs series, I think mainly EDG/LGD in spring and LGD/QG in summer

EDG was consistently better than the others teams in China for all the season except for that playoff week, and LGD got a 1st seed that gave them more praise than what they deserved LGD was definitively much overrated. When the top 20 player list was put out, I didn't get at the time how GODV could have been placed SO high, and that was a position that many agreed upon, and definitively GODV no way could be considered even at the time the 2nd best mid laner in the world and the best playing in LPL The problem is that, at a certain point China seemed definitively better than Korea, in the time between LPL spring playoffs going through MSi and in the start of summer upon MSI result wave, but people were recongizing the sloppiness in LPL during the mid of summer season including analysts in the power rankings, and that was attributed to "sandbagging" rather than the problems that then showed up.

To me LGD before the tournament was in Fnatic/other Korean teams/ahQ tier, not in SKT/EDG one, because I saw that summer win as a fluke due to EDG slump, since EDG lost clearly also to an inferior team like iG in that week too, not because they had becomed the best team of the supposedly best region in China

NA problem is that if they go only for the import route, if an import doesn't adapt well with mates or some other problem arise in the middle of the season, everything crumble down and you are exactly at the previous point For example I think Sven will succed, but what if he has some bad behaviour like what he had in SK? TSM at that point has no chance to replace him in time NA problems are mainly in the long run, as long the competitive underwood at the lowest level of ranked 5 before CS will not develop as well as in the other regions, there will be never a big pool of young and upcoming talent available, and so Na will produce very few homegrown players like they have done in recent times, and will the success all depend on imports that could succed as well as have problems for various reasons with no chance for NA teams to replace them with homegrown talent if anything goes wrong

AkeneroNov 13, 20151 votes

We need to focus on snowballs, like our debt :D But also preventing them

PuynsiNov 13, 20151 votes

http://new4.fjcdn.com/gifs/Git+gud+or+git+rekt+i+saw+this+on+steam_b2dfbf_5136629.gif

YCitizenSnipsYNov 14, 20151 votes

Well for starters the Average LCK split has about 200 games total while the average LCS split has less than 100. So I would imagine the first step is for them to be allowed to put in as much work as KR, as well as China who also has a 200 game split.

There also is just a lack of competition in LCS in general. Look at how well FNC looked compared to all LCS participants, EU and NA, where did that get them shit stomped by KR. There needs to be real challenges for these teams, It still looks like the LCK/OGN are more competitive than worlds.

The Organizations are there to make contenders out of LCS teams for International play but there is just not enough talent and preparation for them to work with.

Ale non è maleNov 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There also is just a lack of competition in LCS in general.** Look at how well FNC looked compared to all LCS participants, EU and NA**,

Yeah, that Chinese OG team XD

YCitizenSnipsYNov 14, 20151 votes

OG looked Mediocre throughout the EU summer split, seriously didn't the loose to GMB in the last weeks who was up for regulation. They slightly exceded expectations at worlds even though the still lost a game to LGD and KT and got their teeth kick in by SKT. Hell even one of their players acknowledged how lucky they were to even get past quarters based on their opponent who was randomly selected. They could have just as easily had that shit stomp happen to them sooner if not for luck.

Ale non è maleNov 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

OG looked Mediocre throughout the EU summer split, seriously didn't the loose to GMB in the last weeks who was up for regulation.

GMB was going to playoffs if it wasn't for Forg1ven suspension...and this despite the organization fucked up at the start of the split with the internet accident Og was 2nd in RS, and ended up 2nd in playoffs losing a close finals to LCS, that's everything except mediocre

YCitizenSnipsYNov 14, 20151 votes

Let me go off memeory because I'm too lazy to go look up the numbers, Wasn't OG 12-6 at the finish of the split. Yeah thats far from what FNC did in 18 games. The only redeeming thing they did that split was the 5 game series against FNC and they still lost that. They were a good team but FNC was by far the best team in the entirety of the LCS and it didn't amount to shit.

Ale non è maleNov 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Let me go off memeory because I'm too lazy to go look up the numbers, Wasn't OG 12-6 at the finish of the split. Yeah thats far from what FNC did in 18 games. The only redeeming thing they did that split was the 5 game series against FNC and they still lost that. They were a good team but FNC was by far the best team in the entirety of the LCS and it didn't amount to shit.

What Fnatic did was far from any team in the world did during summer RS except for SKT Fnatic was the best team in LCS, but OG looked like a legit competition throughout their summer split and they confirmed they were legit at Worlds...to say that OG were mediocre is horse sh*t

YCitizenSnipsYNov 15, 20151 votes

EDG went on a longer undefeated streak in the LPL this season at 21-0 than FNC did , not really that far off anymore.

OG confirmed they were legit how? the went 1-1 with KT, Korea's worse team and 1-1 with LGD who finished 2-4. They were given a free ride to the semi's with the easiest opponent in quarters and then get shit on by SKT who didn't even start faker two of those games. All they proved is that they were just as effective at dealing with KR as any other region and that is not at all.

The only reason people speak so highly on OG is because they went 5 games against a FNC team that was all hype, and got one win over the worse KR at the tournament.

Ale non è maleNov 15, 20151 votes

Nah, you can't really compare LPL format with anyone else, as they have more games. EDG was 34-10 in summer, and split up with various teams even losing once, SKT swept everyone except for CJ and Fnatic was perfect, EDG was not on the same level of dominance

EDG was dominant in spring, and yeah, at that time they won MSI. But we were talking about summer here, and yeah, EDG wasn't as good in summer as SKT or FNC

OG beat FW that beat Koo, the world finalists, 2-0 in groups. So free ride my ass, you are just downplaying them for some unknown reason. The only team they lost in the tournament was SKT, period, and they fared better against them than any team SKT faced except Koo (SKT hadn't lost a single inner turret before the 1st match vs OG), and that including EDG

People speak so highly on OG because OG was so good to place at top 4 in the World, you downplay them with no valid reason. Just ask yourself a pair of questions

YCitizenSnipsYNov 15, 20151 votes

FW beat KOO in Bo1 which are pointless, KR teams excel in Bo3's which is why KOO stomped FNC a team that was supposed to be better than OG.

Top 4 doesn't mean shit when they got their by luck. Ask yourself did they do any better against SKT than AHQ did, and could it have just as easily been the other way around where AHQ got FW and OG got SKT in the quarters. Just like every other worlds post groups any regions placement was based on how long could you go in the tournament without facing the top KR teams.

Until any region can do something against KR, which fun fact since season 3 has only gotten worse at worlds. There is no accomplishment to celebrate. That is literally the only way you know that your region has developed for the better when they can over come a Korean team during the best of portions of worlds.

Ale non è maleNov 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ask yourself did they do any better against SKT than AHQ did,

AHAHAHAHAH They did FAR BETTER than ahQ and EDG vs SKT. Actually in game 1 they gave a run for their money to SKT, which ahQ didn't do at all in their series and EDG didn't do in their games in groups

OG at worst was 5th best team in the world, assuming they got in semi because they didn't face Korean teams or Fnatic before, so I don't get why a top 5 team getting to semi is "getting there by luck" . ahQ getting to semi because they were facing FW, yeah that would have been get there by luck, as they were probably 6th/7th/8th teams among the once that get to the knockout stage

You are just down playing for no reason OG, and it is still unknown why. You are basically saying everyone except Kr is shit...which doesn't account for the fact that still, not any other region was equal. If you define OG mediocre, then what you should define China/TW/NA/rest of the world? Get your shit straight man

YCitizenSnipsYNov 15, 20151 votes

OG faced SKT with Easyhoon in twice and still got 3-0'ed AHQ had to play SKT with Faker as the starter all three games. So no them getting 3-0'ed with two losses coming from SKT lite isn't exactly doing much better.

Im saying everyone but KR is shit because it is and has been true for 3 seasons now. Every year KR has participated in worlds they have made the finals and won 3 out of 4 them. Every year the amount of games other regions take off of KR decreases, this year KR was 24-3 with everyone else.

I don't care what else you define any other region if you aint better than KR you aint shit. The whole thread was what does NA need to do to become better, beat KR is the answer. They need to play the same number of games, get more best of series, and develop local talent so they don't have all these communication issues. The old C9 is proof that a 5 guy squad of full NA players can do good they just need to be able to put more work in and not have a season of one offs.

Ale non è maleNov 15, 20151 votes

You say that like easyhoon is a bad player...he has a champion pool which is smaller than faker, but on his champs he is on par and probably better than Faker himself 8and even faker said it)

So no, OG didn't gace SKT lite, Og face SKT and did far better than ahq. if you say otherwise, it's your opinion, but is a wrong opinion

NA before thinking about beating Korea, has to think how to beat EU/CH/TW, because they have been historically worse than all these other regions

And develop local talents, you must do it even BEFORE reaching CS/LCS level, because then how you are going to figure it out who is CS/LCS and then potentially world level caliber? EU has e-sports infrastructures similar to NA, but has produced MUCH MUCH MUCH more talent

The old C9 team date about the last time actually NA produced world level talent overall. 5 talented guys can do good, but can actually NA consistenly put out so much talented guys to pull off a world caliber team?

YCitizenSnipsYNov 15, 20151 votes

I never called Easyhoon bad, I'm Saying there is a reason Faker is the starter and Faker is put in for their most important matches. SKT with Faker > SKT with Easyhoon. Had OG played all the games against Faker I promise it would have been worse than it was, I mean Westdoor could actually pressure Faker but Peke with the way he was playing nah.

NA doesn't need to consern its self with being better than other regions, just KR. EU was better than NA this season right what did that get them, oh 0-6 stomped in the semis. The year before NA was considered better than EU still lost to both KR teams in quarters.

NA has local talent and C9 were proof, they just don't get to play enough games or best of series under the current LCS format. No one is beating KR until they at least put in the work of those teams, and develop the synergy on these teams that the KR teams have. The organizations are there the infrastructure is there the LCS is what holds them back.

Ale non è maleNov 15, 20151 votes

Peke is not a guy that goes for flashy plays, he did absolutely fine entire worlds regardless of that Flashy =/= better every time. Peke played far far better than Westdoor did these tnire Worlds, and even vs SKT where Westdoor tried to go fo thr kills but netted no results for the team because of that

NA has been worse than ALL the other regions every year BUT season 4, where they took the spots of EU teams in QF because of SK and Alliance problems, So NA has to care about not becoming the laughing stock of the other regions before thinking about reaching KR,...and talk about Eu losses is just salty in the moment where NA was at his lowest point in history, being almost reached by some wildcard teams

NA DOES NOT have young upcoming talent, that's the core problem. C9 old roster was formed near the end of S2/ start of S3 (the Quantic gaming roster), and no teams that was formed later than them could seriously push them or TSM to take the top spot in NA until this season where TSM and C9 falled off some and CLG built a semi-decent roster to claim the reign in S5 Summer

LCS is not holding back NA, otherwise why EU (the closest comparison because of infrastructures, LCS format, and period where Lol was played professionally) is historically so ahed of them?

The NA problem starts before CS/LCS...but until NA people are stubborn enough to not understand that, you'll remain behind the rest and the best of the world

goodblueNov 15, 20151 votes

dont say "we can win" we lost so long time and experience by this words.

CroaninNov 15, 20151 votes

Gbay has a great video on the issue.

Pretty much his most solid comparison is why the Womens Soccer Team is the best team Internationally. Well because in our country there is a law where there must be a womens team for every mens team. Other countries lack this, therefore our infrastructure for Women's soccer is just so much greater because we have a larger talent pool to grab from.

Korea E-Sports are a big deal, therefore a larger amount of the population tries to get into them. There could be a lot of latent talent in NA for League that will never be unlocked because E-Sports just aren't as big here.

Ale non è maleNov 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Gbay has a great video on the issue.

Pretty much his most solid comparison is why the Womens Soccer Team is the best team Internationally. Well because in our country there is a law where there must be a womens team for every mens team. Other countries lack this, therefore our infrastructure for Women's soccer is just so much greater because we have a larger talent pool to grab from.

No, it is because USA is the only country where soccer is seen as a women's sports and not as a men's sport (only in Japan the situation is somewhat close to US, and that's why they are the main USA competitors in women's soccer). That's why women soccer more athletes than any other country in the world, and this push the competition higher than everywhere else. The resources and infrastructure are consequences of that, but countires with smaller infrasrtuctures like Japan and Germany have battered as well with USA despite not having even close infrasdtructures to US ones