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Riot, will there be sound proof booths in future LCS seasons?

HexaCake··36 votes·22,689 views

On multiple occasions the players have said that they can hear the crowd whenever they start to yell/chant something (Curse vs. Col game the crowd yelled "fight!" and the players couldn't hear each other). Is it really worth it to sacrifice the competitive integrity of the LCS just so Riot can have "more fan interaction," if you can even call it that... Also, TheOddOne said that whenever he heard the crowd clap or cheer when they didn't have vision he'd just time dragon, so it really is ruining the integrity of the game if there are not sound proof booths for next season.

It just seems like Riot is being stubborn about it even if it is ruining or altering the outcome of some games.

47 Comments

SerBlaise4 votes

Nah...That's just part of the game. Sure its not part of it when WE play, but its the same in any sport. Maybe you hear the crowd roar before you see the baseball player stealing the base. I'm sure there are other examples (like Seattle Seahawk's 'twelfth man'). You just gotta deal with it.

Iros A Mierda4 votes

Uhm, no. Just because something is prevalent does not mean it is intrinsic to the game. The game was designed around lack of vision being a large factor, negating that because 300 people can see a screen without lack of vision and are screaming about it ruins that aspect of the competition. Imagine if someone were to sit there and scream at the top of his lungs, ¨They´re in your jungle by blue buff!¨ RIOT would ask that person to kindly shut the hell up. In other sports their are times when crowds must shut up, (e.g. Golf and Tennis). So, RIOT needs to make a stand and do something about this if they ever wanna be considered a ¨sport.¨

SerBlaise4 votes

But as I mentioned, there plenty of sports where crowds are allowed to scream as loud as they want. And lets be honest....more people watch football (american and soccer) and baseball than those who watch tennis or (lol...) Golf. People scream Because they want to be heard; soundproof=less screaming fans=less fun=less viewers. God forbid esports turn into GOLF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ughh. shudders

Iros A Mierda4 votes

The point was that it ruins an aspect of the game, it´d be like grabbing the ball in basketball.

SerBlaise3 votes

No, thats a bad analogy. Grabbing the basketball would be like a fan grabbing the mouse from somebody. Shouting is Shouting; just the same as it is in other sports.

Iros A Mierda5 votes

Not when you´re ruining the design of the game by doing so. The point is that it´s taking an aspect of the game and eliminating it. End of story. Either make soundproof booths, or give total map vision 24/7, because right now, fans can easily give away information that is SUPPOSED to be kept secret. That translates to ¨it´s ok to cheat as long as someone else is doing it for the players.¨¨ and just to elaborate on that, TSM, if you wanna pay me to fly to all the world´s games to just shout out what the enemy team is doing 24/7, I´ll do it for you. See how that just got changed from ¨excited fans¨ to ¨this is a loophole to cheat with¨?

12tales2 votes

The distinction between LoL and other sports in this context is that LoL is based on the premise of incomplete information. In baseball, anybody can glance down the field and immediately know and understand what's going on. However, since both fans and players can do this, it's not really that concerning.

So, because what the players know is the same as what the fans know, it's cool.

LoL, however, completely relies on the assumption that players have absolutely no knowledge of the enemy beyond what their wards tell them. Meanwhile, the crowd views the game from a spectator's position, with complete information on literally everything.

Which raises a few issues when those fans are able to communicate with the players in the course of the match.

So, because fans know more than the players know, it's not cool.

Flagrock2 votes

In American Football, you don't know what the other team is going to do or the play they're going to run. That's why you can SCORE, you run weird plays your opponent isn't expecting. The lack of information is what wins games in football. Guess what happens if you steal a coach's play-book in football? you're fined millions of dollars and get into huge trouble...

The issue that you're running into is that there is ALWAYS a lack of information by the players in ANY game. The issue comes down to if it's "gamebreaking". In football, that gamebreaking info is the playbook not the screaming. In the LCS? It's telling the players where the enemy is. Cheering doesn't do that. Think about when people cheer? After a team fight. After a turret kill. Is that game-breaking at all? No.

Cheering is part of any game, and it does affect players. Athletes have even stated that the screaming crowd is extremely distracting and hurts knowing the plays. In football there are stadiums (Seattle is known for it) that are LOUD and the players can't hear the coaches or the QB's calls. Do you see the commissioner pushing for "soundproof playing fields"? No.

tl;dr: Cheering happens in every sport and is extremely distracting. That's life get over it.

12tales2 votes

tl;dr: Cheering happens in every sport and is extremely distracting. That's life get over it.

What a wonderful opportunity esports has to right the errors of its predecessors.

I guess 'accept failure' is a good choice too, though.

Flagrock1 votes

Cheering is part of the game though. If you look at teams like Curse their stage fright really affects there play. Whether they're in a soundproof bubble or not it doesn't matter. Same as in other sports. The cheering part merely is there. Also, many players are really happy and get pumped up with the cheering so they do riskier plays that usually pay off.

Cheering is part of the game because it affects the player's both positively and negatively adding more depth and "randomness" to the game so everyone can beat everyone because of jitters.

12tales3 votes

"Cheering is part of the game" isn't really a convincing argument when the discussion is "Should cheering be a part of the game."

I also fail to see why players feeling bad, underperforming and dropping games they should have won is at all desirable.

Flagrock1 votes

Using that logic, if Riot tries to tailor the game so that the best teams don't drop games from feeling bad or under-performing then you run into the issue that we had at season 3 world finals. Everyone knew SKT1 was going to win, and it was a complete stomp. No one wants to watch a complete stomp.

It's like should Riot call off LCS games of someone feels "sick"? The problem with trying to set it up like you propose is it literally kills the enjoyment of watching the games because you know who is going to win for the sheer fact of the skills since you don't want a team to "drop games they should have won".

12tales2 votes

I want to watch the highest level of competition possible. I have no interest in deliberately fucking with players with the express goal of making them play worse. If there's anything that can be done to facilitate a more consistent, skilled scene, then I'm behind that.

Seriously, would you have enjoyed worlds more if SKT got crazy stage fright on the day of the finals and just played horribly? It seems to me that a competitive event that doesn't actually try to facilitate the best team winning doesn't really deserve the name.

I also have a bit of a hard time believing that having a pane of glass between the audience and the players would 'literally kill the enjoyment of watching games' for you.

March of Dimes3 votes

There's a big difference between a game with vision battles and a sport where all players are visible all the time. The worst you can do for the latter is to maybe overhear a play call and try to inform the other team of the specific play. For the former, if teams notice the crowd is excited and can't see a reason why, it's a pretty big clue that they're trying to make a play.

It's not even the fans' fault either, like it would be in the sports case - genuine excitement gives the play away. Dota already does it and, while we don't need to be Dota, they've got it right in this case.

Sir ArmaMalum4 votes

I don't think 100% sound proof booths would be ideal, the fan interaction is imho necessary when trying to make a game into a spectator sport which is how LoL has to be to be a successful (profitable) staple e-sport.

That's not to say that it isn't a problem. While I don't know if this is already the case or not but there are sound deflection screens (you can see them around drummers in a lot of bands for sound balance) that could be easily implemented to reduce the overall oppressiveness of the crowd's cheering.

EMOFRATPARTY1 votes

I'm in agreement here, but I'm not sure that the comparison with drummers is apt, given that it seems to separate them from the action and interaction with fans and bandmates.

However, there is assuredly a way to create a noise-cancelling setup so that no view is obstructed and it still cancels some, if not all, of the noise from fans. Sonos actually creates a noise-cancelling glass that, if set up in a way conducive to both fans and players, might be a worthy solution.

12tales5 votes

The sound proof booths don't seem to have slowed down League in Korea. If anything, I'd say that they've been much more successful.

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

I think that's more of a societal thing, Korea is much more open towards e-sports than america and a lot of Western countries. I agree that, for the teams, it's probably the best thing to do. It's just whether or not fans who, most likely, are accustomed to football, soccer nascar or other spectator sports would be agreeable to the change. They very well may be, I don't know.

RiotRiot FireBear9 votes

From my experience on stage, the crowd may encourage the players, but the noise itself doesn't help the team's play.

Most of the live game runs on a delay of several seconds. Actions in the moment occur well before the crowd can possibly react to it, and by extension, if a player could pull any information from the crowd noise it would not be useful. That information (noise) isn't actionable.

A few people (including OP) mentioned pro players who set a dragon timer when they hear a commotion in the crowd. The crowd noise/chanting is too unpredictable to be realistically used this way. Think about all the "BALLS" shouts you've been hearing lately on the streams. If you're on stage as a pro player, all you can really pull from the crowd is a binary noise vs no noise, because even something like "BALLS" usually comes across as "edowifjndos!"

Thirdly, the teams that do try to secure an advantage from 'bad data' through audience chatter usually pay for it in the game. With the boss headphones and white noise, its not terribly hard to ignore the external chatter, especially when you roll into the same studio every weekend. But occasionally I hear a player asking their team about what the crowd noise was for, and each time they get punished for paying attention to external factors instead of the live game happening right in front of them. The teams that trust their teammates and their own skill get by much better than those trusting the audience for guidance on plays.

I'm not the Rioter who makes the call on whether or not to have a booth or deflection screen, but if that person came to me for my thoughts, I'd say that since noise vs noise is still an issue with these sound mitigation options, installing them is an unnecessary detriment to the overall LCS experience.

Bolraguard3 votes

I would like to point out that the vast majority of players do NOT get to talk with the teamates, and are forced to use pings. Also, I believe all championship matches the 5 players alreadt know who is going to play what role. Maybe not what champ since thats based on Bans... but atleast they know which role.

I propose Riot does the following--- A. Put all the players of a pro team in their own little rooms. B. Give then headsets only and NO microphone... C. Force them to all play a role they dont know how to play.

You know, Make it like the rest of us trying to go through the ranked games bullcrap.

Bolraguard2 votes

Wow, 3 Negatives, but nobody stateing anything why they down voted me.

How about someone explains why what I am saying is a bad thing?

Can the "Pros" not function correctly as a team if they ONLY use pings and are unable to verbally communicate with each other?

How about 2 of them have to fight it out over who gets which lane? - How do you do this? Give 2 of them the same lane and say Whoever doesnt do this lane is fined $1,000 Dollars. It will be just like a real Ranked game. (Understandably the fine isnt like a normal ranked game, but in normal ranked games people seem to fight over lanes so hard they may as well be getting fined.)

AnOtterFailure2 votes

It is like normal ranked. Normal Team ranked. Not solo Q, I'm sure they have solo Q tournaments but they aren't as prevalent because it's easier (and in my opinion more entertaining) to support an entire team rather than one person.

Frostbutt1 votes

A. Why? They're a team. B. Why? C. If we compare esports to sports, then it's like putting a goalie in mid.

ShadowGlaive2132 votes

"Actions in the moment occur well before the crowd can possibly react to it, and by extension, if a player could pull any information from the crowd noise it would not be useful."

Except that one time when, who was it, Cloud 9 and I think it was Curse(?) were hiding in bushes just above mid lane and the whole room screamed "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" for at least 10s that ultimately resulted in a level 1 5v5. I think it might've been the first game that Hai played mid lane Soraka iirc.

RiotRiot FireBear1 votes

I have a few initial thoughts, but I'd love to watch this play on video before jumping to any conclusions. Anyone have a link? :)

ShadowGlaive2133 votes

I admit I remembered 10s incorrectly. around 7:20-ish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IYaQBbbzdQ

Cuix2 votes

Or, to put it more conveniently, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IYaQBbbzdQ&t=7m20s.

RiotRiot FireBear3 votes

Alright so after watching this video, it appears to me that C9 had the intention and location of CRS pretty well locked down before vision or any chanting begins:

7:04 - C9 Enemy Missing ping lands on river ward 7:12 - C9 General Ping (x2), one lands right onto CRS 7:21 - C9 General Ping lands right onto CRS 7:30 - C9 Assembles in topside mid brush 7:33 - Crowd begins chant

And remember that neither team is getting any crowd input into the game until several seconds later due to the running delay. I'm not sure how a competitive advantage was gained here based on the noise of the crowd, considering that C9 was all up in that river for the impending fight well before any tip off would have been logistically possible.

What are your thoughts?

ShadowGlaive2131 votes

I think it's more than likely C9 had a suspicion that Curse was there, thus the pings and taking the extra precaution to move all the way around the ridge before entering the bush. I also feel that they weren't entirely sure, in part by the missing ping rather than a danger ping or what not, but that the crowd also could've given them the positive ID that they were in fact there before the Cait q came over to confirm that CRS was there. Potentially if the crowd had not given them that early confirmation C9 could've just left before a Cait q ever came over and nothing would've happened. Also if the crowd had not said anything I'm not sure whether CRS would've stayed there as long as they did.

idk how much of a delay is actually there so maybe maybe not. Regardless of what the case was in this particular game, if the potential for an evidently realistically possible situation like this to happen in which the crowd could give a heads up like this in the future and ultimately affect the course of the game it is a good reason for soundproof booths. Whether it's good enough for Riot to actually start utilizing booths or not that's up to them, but the possibility of crowd input affecting games with information is clearly there.

DrMemes1 votes

I still think we need them, other sports don't need them because there is no fog of war on any real life sport.

However most e-sports events I've watched have them. Dota 2 had them, Starcraft 2 had them, because whenever there's a large audence it WILL react to whatever happens in the game and this CAN and WILL influence the players.

RiotRiot FireBear4 votes

Feeling like those mitigation methods are needed is a fair opinion, but I would disagree with you about there being no fog of war in RL sports. It might not be called "fog of war" but there are absolutely situations in other sports where game changing plays can be carried out under the nose of the opposing team due to lack of vision or awareness.

Stealing bases comes to mind for baseball. (American) Football and basketball have some amazing plays involving misdirection.

Its also been mentioned several times in first-hand accounts that booths are really not an effective sound mitigation option. I've not experienced them myself, but my opinion is that they're much better at giving the *impression *of effectiveness as opposed to actually being effective.

The Scyphozoa2 votes

But occasionally I hear a player asking their team about what the crowd noise was for, and each time they get punished for paying attention to external factors instead of the live game happening right in front of them.

But that's a problem, isn't it? It adds an extra layer of mental discipline that these players need, the discipline to ignore the yelling and avoid making a small mental note that "maybe dragon just went down".

RiotRiot FireBear2 votes

It could be argued that its a problem, I accept that possibility. If that were the case I'd probably have a considerable volume of complaints from the players on stage about it. So far I've not been approached by an LCS player about this problem, so I can't really say it sticks out to me as an emergent issue.

That said, I do think we could do a better job explaining the nuances of these issues to everyone. Touching on a point from a different comment tree, this feels more like an issue with perception v. reality when it comes to booths. Booths are perceived by the community to be the ultimate solution, and experts testify to them really not providing any benefit. There's a huge disconnect there.

I would personally want Riot or any other tournament organizer to use methods that work, and not methods that appear to work.

Tortferngatr1 votes

What about booths causes them to not provide any benefit?

RiotRiot FireBear4 votes

I'm not an audio expert so I can't say for certain, but from what I've been told, a booth is not able to prevent the soundwaves from coming in to the game environment. It can obscure the noise so that you can't hear what is being said, but you can hear that something is being said. Using booths in conjunction with the headsets *seems *like it would work, but apparently sound doesn't behave that way because of science and I don't want to stray too far from my expertise. :P

Given that the current methods already obscure the noise of the audience, the case becomes players hearing any external noise vs players not hearing any external noise. If you want to cut out all external noise from the pro players, a booth isn't going to cut it. You essentially have to have them play in a different venue from the audience, and then there's really no point because you might as well be watching a stream. :(

CupcakeTrap1 votes

What about the visual side of things? Would a pane of one-way glass be useful to avoid the possibility of someone in the crowd signaling info to the players? Maybe just a pane to cover the gaps between the monitors?

It might sound kind of crazy, but I think unscrupulous types could come up with ways to use (e.g.) those applause-sticks to signal info on jungler location or Summoner spells.

RiotRiot FireBear2 votes

It doesn't sound crazy at all, I've thought about this myself. On stage at the studio there is a lot of lighting on the players' seating area, and the audience is kept under very low lighting (typically a dark blue).

The best way to explain this is like trying to look at the face of someone pointing a flashlight in your eyes. Due to the lighting conditions, any visual trickery like this would be a hardship on the cheater, since their eyes will have to adjust to the stage lights and then back to their monitor.

Plus, us Refs are right there to look out for any cheating too. :D

CupcakeTrap1 votes

Ah, makes sense. Glad to hear it's been considered.

So, uh, did someone just sweep through this entire thread and downvote everyone?

Davey Jownz3 votes

Well do the players like the atmosphere? To be honest I'd be a little sad if I came to perform in front of a live audience and had to sit in a sound proof box and not hear their chants at all. Both teams hear it so it can't really be seen as a disadvantage to either of them and I really don't think the better team will suddenly loose cause a team has heard a cheer from the audience. Plus you can't quite take the audience cheering as a guaranteed dragon, I mean how awkward would it be if the crowed cheers for a fail flash(which does happen) and then TheOddOne times Dragon. haha

ChickenWrap2 votes

I read that as "soundproof boobs" and thought to myself "Those are going to be some seriously mountainous tatas."

FantasySniper2 votes

Make glass slide up the stage when they begin playing. Could totally be done and it would mark the official start and end of the game.

It should only act like a "4th wall" for the stage, though, and still allow them to get on/off-stage for personnel and such.

Rhlax2 votes

On multiple occasions the players have said that they can hear the crowd whenever they start to yell/chant something (Curse vs. Col game the crowd yelled "fight!" and the players couldn't hear each other). Is it really worth it to sacrifice the competitive integrity of the LCS just so Riot can have "more fan interaction,"

This is a poor example. When the crowd is loud, **both **teams cannot hear anything. Neither team gains an advantage. Competitive integrity however can be lost during surprise plays, particularly during early games.

Ultimately though, when it comes to sound booth it needs to be a decision made by pro players. The 16 teams going to the World should vote on this and other controversial matters. It is not the say of fans, nor Riot.

Strossus Gran1 votes

I think the teams should give their input...but uh...yeah no, it is Riot's say, 100%. its their deal, not the teams. If it fails because of stuff like this its on Riot, not the teams, which is why they should be interested in gathering input (until I hear an emphatic 'no they refuse input' from the ownership of the teams participating, I will assume Riot does get their input because they do a lot more things than they stand up and say they're doing because its mostly mundane).

Maalakeem2 votes

Really simple, do you want this to be a spectator sport or not? If you don't, which will decrease income as spectator sports have much higher revenue on average then non-spectator sports, then you put up the glass, give them a booth, whatever. If you do want the increased enjoyment and higher revenues of an enjoyable spectator sport, then like other professional sports, you deal with the problems inherent to having a live audience.

This does not mean you allow cheating, like fans yelling specific information to the players. That should get the fan banned from all future events and perhaps even penalize the benefiting team. You also do not allow rowdiness to cause the game to be delayed or directly impaired. Indirect distractions, and even false or perhaps good information gained from a perceptive player are all apart of the live spectator experience.

Now that being the case, it may be time for fans to start to mitigate their actions if they are ruining the play of their favorite sport. Like the way chess and poker fans do not interrupt the play of their sport by being respectful of the attention and hidden nature of information required to play those sports. But that is up to the fans and the players to start a trend in that fashion, not posters on a bulletin board.

To those who seem to think this new variety of sport could perhaps improve on the way sports are held, that is faulty logic. The point of trying to make video games a sport is to make them LIKE sports. An attempt to "improve" the experience merely returns the game to it's roots, a hobby for amateurs in their quiet rooms, alone, to enjoy. Sports, have been held like they are currently, just with more technology and convenience, for thousands of years. It's pretty safe to say that they are doing it right to include an audience in many of the sports and it adds to the pressure of professional athletes to earn their pay for what is, truthfully, the playing of games by adults for money.

You want the sport to earn that money, and therefore allow professionals, you have to bring the people to watch it.

OneEyeOlaf2 votes

Personally i see negative to having fully soundproof booths. The players would still pumping up the crowd if they made a big play weather they heard the crowd or not.

VayneThePain1 votes

Meh

LemonInYourEyes1 votes

I think sound proofing in any way would be a detriment to the sport and the experience as a whole. Thinking about my own experiences attending traditional sporting events(non esport) I have found that crowd interaction only enhances the experience. Growing up in Minnesota I grew accustomed to attending professional events in the Metrodome, a venue famous for its pretty ridiculous ambiance and found the player/spectator relationship is what makes the experience entertaining and special. The game is made for the players, while the sport is made for the fans. Fans dictate the popularity of the sport, and for the interest of the sport and Riot as a company, making fans feel like they are a part of the action should be top priority.

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