Congrats TSM

E Man forever·Aug 11, 2019·10 votes·8,656 views

Wow, umm. WOW! (Disclaimer this is just a flaming of TSM for us to laugh at, this is not to cheapen CG's victory over them as they exceeded everyone's expectations. Huni looked like he returned to 2016 form. Also Cody Sun you were a beast, good luck on your revenge tour.)

I was expecting either a blowout by TSM and at worst a close 5 game series. But to role over and lose in 4 in humiliating fashion.

You guys were coming into the playoffs saying that you were gonna get revenge, that the playoff buff activated, that Clutch didn't have a chance. Impeccable!

How did you choke that badly against the most inconsistent team in the League.

We have 2 junglers that both have LCS experience this season that each bring different strengths to the table. Screw that lets bring in the rookie jungler put him on tanks and chuck him into the fire.

Aside from Cody Sun playing out of his mind. whose fault is it to keep on giving Huni Rumble or executing the little things like making sure a kill is secured in a gank or knowing better than to fight in choke points against Rumble and Quiyana. Speaking of Cody Sun, much more could have been done to shut him down. How about not spoon-feeding him a triple kill around a lost dragon fight.

Bjergsen felt near invisible even with a well farmed Corki, what about the Twisted Fate and the map pressure a player of his caliber could create with him.

Yes Sivir and Kai'sa are slippery champions, but, at least try camping him one game like you tried to do to Huni and coordinate a 4 man dive bot.

It also helps if you know adapt. It was especially clear when it came to the draft and in execution. Their comps had much more aoe and had more defined windows of victory.

Broken Blade was your only hope to force the silver scrapes and little was done to either help his lane or engage in teamfights.

You know what Clutch have that you didn't develop? An identity. They have one direction and that full throttle forwards, retreat is not in their vocabulary and look to win lane and dominate scrappy teamfights. Meanwhile, you guys all split long you guys had no direction as to how you would win games. I'm fine with a jungle tandem, C9 for example. But, settle on a style that can be adapted to face various teams. It's like 2018 Spring all over again as you usually had the early lead then just...sit on it not know whether to continue looking to pick off enemies or bleed them out. It's either one or the other, sure there is an in-between but you have to commit to that balance.

Even this series when you had decent early leads and got your Vayne some early kills. There was a toss up over whether to dance around the Sivir and push where she is not or just continue making aggressive engages as the assassin was not fed yet. Instead it was a mix of both allowing Cody Sun to sit with a Kench to babysit his Sivir while he knocked down wave after wave.

I want you guys to ponder this loss real well before the gauntlet. I thought you were a guaranteed slot for worlds at the end of Spring. You've disappointed me TSM.

Now where are my C9 fans at. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

26 Comments

FlashNekoAug 11, 20193 votes

I know I'm the first one to generally look at TSM in the harshest light possible but MAN, is it just me or did it feel like they didn't even want to be there? Like they had mentally checked out before the match even started.

GeminiRuneAug 11, 20191 votes

It felt like a collateral effect if you ask me. Considering the manner in which TSM Academy faltered and fell, it probably led to the management choices being realized as a mistake. So many things happened this week with the TSM camp that not even their legacy status could fix the broken split already produced.

FlashNekoAug 11, 20193 votes

Yeah, SOMETHING big is going on behind the scenes. You don't just bench your two top Junglers like that, or bring in back-ups for another role that you never use, unless there are serious issues with the players.

And given how baffled even a lot of people close to the team were after these choices got made, the situation may be a LOT worse than they're letting on. I'll be curious to see what moves they make in the off-season either to get everyone back on the same page... or if we'll be seeing some high profile departures.

Maybe even resulting in the unthinkable image of Bjergsen in Immortals or Dignitas colors.

ChompyWulfAug 12, 20191 votes

Oh hell, don't you wish Bjergsen on Immortals!

BigBellBruteAug 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I know I'm the first one to generally look at TSM in the harshest light possible but MAN, is it just me or did it feel like they didn't even want to be there? Like they had mentally checked out before the match even started.

Yes. And I'm not buying the we just felt this guy had better synergy. It's probably true. But it isn't the whole truth. One doesn't simply sub out like that before playoffs unless there's some serious dissent in the ranks or unless you know a guy simply can't cut it.

GeminiRuneAug 11, 20192 votes

Them losing made tomorrow really matter to CLG and Optic. It is now for a gauntlet spot at the least. No technicalities. Win or season's over.

That actually feels tense to me!

ihateyouallmutedAug 11, 20192 votes

I don't even know what to say. Do I beat this dead horse?

III BAKURYU III Aug 12, 20191 votes

Beat it, beat it as if it's your 3rd leg

giannishannibalAug 11, 20191 votes

For some reason i think that -as an EU watching NA teams- that C9 is the strongest team. With strongest is that they survive and pull their weights and win the crucial games. The proof is their presense in Worlds each year regardless of highs and lows in regular season . Aslo is this 2 or 3 seasons straght that in Worlds, C9 consistenly play the 2nd week with 3 games in a row make it out of the group stage strong and convincing. After in the knockout stage they play decent and represent the NA very well ( at least in my eyes). In the end they give NA more results and face in international stage and thats for me C9 is the strongest NA team- its not important how many times they fall, they will always stand up and fight ( plus I find sneaky adc performance more stable than any other adc in NA).

On the other hand, TSM and other teams with World stage experience they choke in big matches or important matches and fail at the last leg of the tournaments/Worlds etc

JavelinJoeAug 11, 20192 votes

C9 is consistently reliable. TSM is now likely to be seen as what was once the big showcase team for NA. But after today, likely all of that image has been broken for the near future for a majority of the viewers. The ones to blame for that are the coaching and managing of TSM who could not decide on an identity and build towards a solid core foundation aside from "Bjerg will hopefully pull us out if we cant win by sheer talent and enemy mistakes." TSM is great at capitalizing on mistakes and drafting big name players. Aside from that, its anyone's guess. The players have the aptitude to win, but without consistency, or some adaptive game plan, you cant expect to win. TSM likely has the best potential for all NA teams since all of their players have a lot of talent. Enough to fumble their way into playoffs with almost no set of easy win conditions besides scale for late game, split push, and poke comp (the 3 most played types with obvious and many counter strategies known). But without any sort of guiding objective / image to try and build a team around, that potential is wasted. The thing about back when it was "Bjerg and 4 wards", was that it worked. It is the original funnel strategy. Also I still cant understand how you dont make significant adaptations after 2 games of best of 5 have proven something was an issue.

III BAKURYU III Aug 11, 20191 votes

The thing that scares me about NA and the thought of Cloud 9 winning Finals is this -

Since 2014 Cloud 9 has never gotten a #1 seed for Worlds 2014 #2 2015 #3 2016 #3 2017 #3 2018 #3 So statistically speaking they've been in the harder groups at Worlds while the other NA teams were in the (debatable) easier groups but yet, C9 has gotten out of groups 4 times in the past 5 years and NA total 5 times(again, C9 4 of those 5) TSM was the only NA team ever to make it out of Groups back in 2014.

If the other NA teams can't make it out as #1 or #2 seeds.....we can expect even worse performances from North America if Cloud 9 does in fact win Finals.

Hopefully this made sense as I'm an illiterate animal.

giannishannibalAug 11, 20191 votes

I your post and it make senses and I understand your sentiments. Exactly cause of all those years C9 always performed and I am expecting them to perform regardless and thats the reason why I consider them the strongest NA team-not because they win every game or decimate their enemies but because they always rise up and improve and reach their target

Now for this season maybe it will be cursed eg the 2 teams in the C9 group stage will be this year finalists so C9 wont make it outside of group stage or maybe this is C9 year that they will reach Worlds final -who knows maybe win. As for the rest NA teams, I have to say that their performance this year is barely satisfactory and I think they will perform meh- unless they is a miracle and they improve their mentality and coordination and drafting while the enemies for some reason have low morale.

Overall this year apart from C9, only Team Liquid can match my expectations and perform at Worlds stage but on the premise that Doublelift doesnt choke like he did in Worlds group stage while in TSM. For once I want to see Doublelift actually backing his claim that he is the best adc in NA and prove it by carrying his team out of groups and reach semifinals at least or at least dont be the reason why Team Liquid dies-let his top or jungle or mid be the reason.

III BAKURYU III Aug 11, 20191 votes

While I won't say anything in stone this could be another year where all 3 NA teams don't make it out of groups.

E Man foreverAug 11, 20191 votes

Have you seen Liquid's recent international success [sg-ahri-1]

III BAKURYU III Aug 12, 20191 votes

All it takes is for Team Liquid to be matched up with slower paced teams and they'll be able to make it out of groups. It's one of the reasons why D-Lift wanted a "date" with Faker and SKT at MSI because they were the least threat of the major regions(EU/LPL/LCK).

Casing point, if Team Liquid and NA play aggressive.......it's possible we could, maybe, possibly have 3 NA teams make it out of Groups.

If Worlds 2019 is like Worlds from last year(with Korea not knowing WTF to do in this style of meta, many of the IWC teams and LMS teams being complete garbage and EDG being the LPL version of TSM) it's possible NA could actually have a team in the Finals.

BigBellBruteAug 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EF45ZYzW,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-11T17:39:47.547+0000)

While I won't say anything in stone this could be another year where all 3 NA teams don't make it out of groups.

Oh that's going out on a limb. EVERY year could be a year where NA doesn't make it out of groups.

III BAKURYU III Aug 12, 20191 votes

Think of it as a rough draft before Worlds. Basically saying how weak NA looks at the moment.

" EVERY year could be a year where NA doesn't make it out of groups"

I know, I know NA is garbage each year but c'mon Cloud 9 should die for our sins....................again..........we hope, right?!?!

drydinosaur54Oct 18, 20191 votes

One of them hasn't made it already. Let's see TL and Clutch.

SobeDragonAug 11, 20191 votes

I don't know what just happened in the last two weeks, but ... wow. Just. Wow.

III BAKURYU III Aug 11, 20191 votes

Not really sure why TSM benched Grig when he and TSM were 4-0 with him and even improved from his 2018 performance.

TSM legit went full 100 Thieves when they benched Akaadian and Grig similar to 100 Thieves after an impressive Finals(Meteos) and weeks before Worlds 2018(Codysun).

Also, I've been saying this for 3+years now, "Bjergsen plays too damn passive" especially in today's league/meta where the aggressive players/plays gets the WINS.
He's a better version of Froggen.......he farms well, he needs every blue, it's a meme "SOLOMID" with the years of constant camping for such, plays passive each game.... and for what? To barely win games around the 40 min mark each split?

People can say all they want about Bjergsen and YES he's a GREAT player! but let's stop acting like you can't replace him. Caps left Fnatic for G2 and Fnatic literally found a replacement just like that and NA could honestly just find another EU mid.

Cloud 9( Hai - Jensen - Nisqy) it is possible to actually MOVE ON.

Bjergsen has been the constant variable on TSM but never gets the blame....

Reginald MonkeyKing Go to Europe and scout mid laners..... don't want to spend $ on an EU Challenger player that's fine! You can legit get a Gold EU player that will match the skill of the NA players.

JavelinJoeAug 11, 20191 votes

I would say it is management and or other staff, not necessarily team players. Bjerg is playing differently because that is what they want him too. Also, the META may shift to more aggression, but without solid side laners, what is he going to do? BB and Sven were underwhelming for most of the series. And after 2 games on Sej when you lost both times badly in the jungle, maybe let him go onto a new champion.

III BAKURYU III Aug 11, 20191 votes

" I would say it is management and or other staff, not necessarily team players"

How so? Picks ban? was kinda dumb.

How is Bjergsen playing different? Bjergsen has/was and always will play super safe, non aggressive, never the one that leads his team in fights. Galio mid was a super tank and he still would be scared to do anything. The only way I see that it's management/Regi's fault is they are scared of losing Bjergsen.....so they'll bend over for him.

While the argument is really and should be the present and the NOW with Bjergsen it's really bout his whole NA career(Worlds, NA etc -)

This is a team led by Bjergsen that would barely win NA Playoffs(Constantly being down 0-1 - 1-2 in series only to win such in 3-2 fashion) get to Worlds and s$it the bed. Now that Bjergsen/TSM can't even win NA it's discerning.

Every split it's always the Jungler(Oddone, Amazing, Santorin, Svenskeren, Akaadian, Grig, Spica) or Support(Xpecial, Lustboy, Biofrost, Mithy, Smoothei) or Top(Dyrus, Hauntzer, BB) fault but never Bjergsen's.

What is TSM going to do with an overly passive mid laner in a meta where you need to actually be the aggressor? MID lane use to be that get peel, stand in the back and just get easy kills for such on a silver plate but not anymore. Now, as a mid you d$mn near need to be the one that start the fights for your team with your AOE(slows, stuns, engages etc) The meta will be shifting to an even more in your face aggressive play style mid meta(in my silver elo, NA Forehead opinion) ;] Champions like Rumble Lissandra Aatrox Pantheon

Jennifer420Aug 11, 20191 votes

because of time reasons i wasnt able to watch much na lcs the last... well 2 years. but what i did realize this year is that NOT ONCE did anyone mention tsm.

guess now i know why. im just a bit sad for zven, he was my favorite adc player in the eu lcs. i guess the na curse hit again :/

E Man foreverAug 11, 20192 votes

News flash for your 2-year slumber Team Liquid is the new evil empire. TSM are now underachievers and have missed worlds Doublelift finally made it past an international group stage Best in the West is no more

Jennifer420Aug 11, 20191 votes

ty :D i saw them at all international events ofc. also meh i never liked doublelift but i guess he earned it

BigBellBruteAug 12, 20191 votes

Well some of you know my old joke on other boards.

Rule 1. It's the support's fault Rule 2. The Jungler is just another support

But TSM lives it.