Lets be real guys the Kogmaw survival was not ridiculous

I Main Swain·Oct 24, 2017·36 votes·1,795 views

everyone is talking as if he got hit with the entire rotation of the enemy team and survived because janna had ardent censor and shielded him. lets be honest, what happened was perfectly reasonable. kogmaw got hit by sejuani's ult and w, lulu's ult, ori's full rotation (throughout the course of the whole thing, not all at once or anything), and maybe a caitlyn aa or two and meanwhile he was shielded by jannas e, locket, galio damage reduction and knock up for peel, janna ult heal and knock back for peel, and his own barrier. if that HAD been enough to kill him through all that, that would have been ridiculous.

19 Comments

xJLx MCHammerOct 24, 201718 votes

Is it ridiculous? In the world patch? HELL NO, it's not. It's why the ADC can be so far out and not get punished

But you are fooling yourself if you think there was ever a time other than this years worlds where an ADC could have taken Oriana W + R, Cait AA (with lulu pix), and Sej ult and come out with FULL HP.

With that said, I think it was on C9 to either Ban the Janna/Lulu and Galio. Their draft was just. I never question reapers draft, but there is always the first time.

I Main SwainOct 24, 20176 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=_fX87uERMI4

he was literally right next to his support with his team very close by. and yes i would agree that he couldnt have, but you know why? because last year at worlds we didnt have the new galio with his damage reduction, sejuani had a different kit and frankly neither of them would have probably been picked, locket wasnt meta to take on tanks, mage items were in a better state if i remember right, and a whole lot of other stuff. and besides he didnt come out full hp, he got lowered to less than half of his health even through ALL OF THAT. idk how that would have gone down a year ago, but ill say that a year ago i wouldnt have been all that surprised that he survived considering the proportion of defensive power blown on him in comparison to the amount of damage blown on him.

xJLx MCHammerOct 24, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Main Swain,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=Az3ZwGhw,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T02:06:14.761+0000)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=_fX87uERMI4

he was literally right next to his support with his team very close by. and yes i would agree that he couldnt have, but you know why? because last year at worlds we didnt have the new galio with his damage reduction, sejuani had a different kit and frankly neither of them would have probably been picked, locket wasnt meta to take on tanks, mage items were in a better state if i remember right, and a whole lot of other stuff. and besides he didnt come out full hp, he got lowered to less than half of his health even through ALL OF THAT. idk how that would have gone down a year ago, but ill say that a year ago i wouldnt have been all that surprised that he survived considering the proportion of defensive power blown on him in comparison to the amount of damage blown on him.

I've seen the video. I know what is is.

My issue is not entirely based on the fact that KoG survived the burst. My issue is that the team is able to do so much damage despite being able to defend one champion so hard.

Like I said on another thread

My bigger issue from with the entire balance direction is that they are trying to define roles and they are doing it on the end of the spectrum. The fact that Sneaky can get 96K damage to champions while the next big damage deal was 40k, and 3rd-5th was in 15k or less. It sounds "okay" but it just means every champion has the same job, peel for the adc or save the adc

You throw all your shield on the ADC, your ADC does all the damage. Champions are being balance around how they can affect the ADC champion rather then how they can affect the game and other roles. Ardent was not designed to help anyone else but the ADC do more damage. Knights Vow was designed to make sure the ADC lives. Sure, it can work on a AP champion but its nowhere as effective.

Then we ask ourselves how can a KOG stand still against 2 ults, multiple AA's, and other abilities. Riot scaled the damage down of tanks, bruisers, and AP champions. They gave ADC too many ways to survive.

So now we are at the crossroad and this worlds has show the design issue.

Basically, if the ADC role itself was not hitting like a truck, healing back up to 100% after 3 hits without building life steal, you wouldn't have this problem. Instead, a kog can 2-3 hit a champion. Within that 1-2 second, even if the shields/healing/dmg reduction fail, the ADC will kill someone. Look at this video.

https://i.gyazo.com/3992c07b53bfb417f4fdad7d69ede5fd.mp4

It just show the issue. See, you can shield and do all kinds of healing to any other role that is not ADC and you just can't get those results.

I Main SwainOct 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=Az3ZwGhw,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T02:19:56.258+0000)

I've seen the video. I know what is is.

My issue is not entirely based on the fact that KoG survived the burst. My issue is that the team is able to do so much damage despite being able to defend one champion so hard.

Like I said on another thread

My bigger issue from with the entire balance direction is that they are trying to define roles and they are doing it on the end of the spectrum. The fact that Sneaky can get 96K damage to champions while the next big damage deal was 40k, and 3rd-5th was in 15k or less. It sounds "okay" but it just means every champion has the same job, peel for the adc or save the adc

You throw all your shield on the ADC, your ADC does all the damage. Champions are being balance around how they can affect the ADC champion rather then how they can affect the game and other roles. Ardent was not designed to help anyone else but the ADC do more damage. Knights Vow was designed to make sure the ADC lives. Sure, it can work on a AP champion but its nowhere as effective.

Then we ask ourselves how can a KOG stand still against 2 ults, multiple AA's, and other abilities. Riot scaled the damage down of tanks, bruisers, and AP champions. They gave ADC too many ways to survive.

So now we are at the crossroad and this worlds has show the design issue.

Basically, if the ADC role itself was not hitting like a truck, healing back up to 100% after 3 hits without building life steal, you wouldn't have this problem. Instead, a kog can 2-3 hit a champion. Within that 1-2 second, even if the shields/healing/dmg reduction fail, the ADC will kill someone. Look at this video.

https://i.gyazo.com/3992c07b53bfb417f4fdad7d69ede5fd.mp4

It just show the issue. See, you can shield and do all kinds of healing to any other role that is not ADC and you just can't get those results.

although when you think about it thats only really because adc's are so strong right now. if it were a mage meta it would be pretty much the same scenario except people using all their crap on cassiopeia or lux or swain or whoever. ofc theres some stuff that is just plain better for adc's like ardent and zekes but theres also a lot of stuff that isnt necessarily always best to use on adc like knights or locket

xJLx MCHammerOct 24, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Main Swain,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=Az3ZwGhw,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T02:57:11.107+0000)

although when you think about it thats only really because adc's are so strong right now. if it were a mage meta it would be pretty much the same scenario except people using all their crap on cassiopeia or lux or swain or whoever. ofc theres some stuff that is just plain better for adc's like ardent and zekes but theres also a lot of stuff that isnt necessarily always best to use on adc like knights or locket

Those AP champions are gated by skill shot, cooldowns, and itemization (they can't melt tanks)

Ryze and Cassiopeia are the exception but that's because they designed to be sustained damaged dealers like ADC's

I Main SwainOct 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=Az3ZwGhw,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T03:35:03.573+0000)

Those AP champions are gated by skill shot, cooldowns, and itemization (they can't melt tanks)

Ryze and Cassiopeia are the exception but that's because they designed to be sustained damaged dealers like ADC's

thats why A) i said in a mage meta and B) i gave cassiopeia and swain as examples, because those are the times it would be viable. ofc right now you wouldnt be using it on your annie but if it were still at a time when mages could get 900 ap easy breezy then heck yeah id be using it on my lux or brand or whoever

Pierce The VealOct 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=Az3ZwGhw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-24T01:43:03.040+0000)

Is it ridiculous? In the world patch? HELL NO, it's not. It's why the ADC can be so far out and not get punished

But you are fooling yourself if you think there was ever a time other than this years worlds where an ADC could have taken Oriana W + R, Cait AA (with lulu pix), and Sej ult and come out with FULL HP.

With that said, I think it was on C9 to either Ban the Janna/Lulu and Galio. Their draft was just. I never question reapers draft, but there is always the first time.

They key to this lies in the fact that Kog blew barrier as well, and Galio's ult gave %damage reduction on top of those shields.

WrÆthOct 25, 20171 votes

Wait it's almost like they had a team built around protecting an adc.

Wait it's almost like a team built around protecting an adc is pretty damn good at protecting an adc.

ThefrostyvikingOct 24, 20175 votes

Thank you OP, i have been out on many of the threads writing down mini essays on why its perfectly normal for a kog to survive seju ulti+low AP ori ulti+1 cait heashot if he has Janna and galio helping him but there are still so many screaming like Banshee´s how marksmen are OP and ought to be nerfed.

As if kog did do shit there except get hit. '

Janna and galio did all the work together with grag ulting enemy team away and somehow Kog is at fault for surviving when his team blew literally everything to save him.

RaiyzaOct 24, 20174 votes

C9 didn't react quickly enough. If you looked closely, only Jensen got damage out. Shen top + Sej jg + lulu, that's no damage right there. Sneaky and Jensen were the only real damage and Sneaky didn't get any.

They got outplayed. That's all.

SalsonOct 24, 20172 votes

The only problem here is Kog doing so much damage that he can easily justify a protection comps alone.

They have 2 Tanks, 1 Off-Tank and a purely defensive support.

And they still melt the enemy team in seconds.

VerxintOct 24, 20172 votes

The issue I have is that it's Kog'Maw, a supposed lategame, position dependent, item dependent ADC, being able to run down an enemy team because one engage was negated, in a game where teams are level 10 and 11. If this happened in the lategame, I'd be more okay with it. But the idea that a hypercarry can be inflated to such a power level in the midgame does seem wrong to me. The amount of resources they spent to save a champion who should IN THEORY still be VERY WEAK AT THIS STAGE because he is a LATEGAME carry, but were still able to crush the fight, is troublesome.

I Main SwainOct 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Scary Dario,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=Az3ZwGhw,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-10-24T16:06:22.024+0000)

The issue I have is that it's Kog'Maw, a supposed lategame, position dependent, item dependent ADC, being able to run down an enemy team because one engage was negated, in a game where teams are level 10 and 11. If this happened in the lategame, I'd be more okay with it. But the idea that a hypercarry can be inflated to such a power level in the midgame does seem wrong to me. The amount of resources they spent to save a champion who should IN THEORY still be VERY WEAK AT THIS STAGE because he is a LATEGAME carry, but were still able to crush the fight, is troublesome.

yeah dont get me wrong i hate that champions like vayne kogmaw and other "late game hyper carries" hit their "late game" at like 12 minutes. that being said, i just think we shouldnt make it out as if any time an adc does anything its because theyre op or supports are op

woodvsmurphOct 24, 20171 votes

Because... there's too damn much defensive itemization, buffing of defensive spells (like janna shield and ult), and not enough damage on other classes besides adc right now. In seasons past, ori combo would have solo deleted kog before his team could react - no further damage needed from anyone else on the team. So you are correct that in the current meta it would be ridiculous to expect kog to die there; however, it is even more ridiculous to accept this meta as OK/tolerable in any way shape or form. The boards is 1/2 posts about adc's and enchanter supports needing nerfs or about cho needing nerfs. As we can see, adc's in situations like that make better tanks than a fed 6 item cho'gath. People have been calling for months now (some much longer) to fix the numerous things wrong with league. Inherent scaling imbalance. Insane braindead bully potential of some champs; like when they are at their weakest, the match another champ when that second champ is at it's strongest point in the game (ahem... cough cough fiora cough). Etc. etc. Adc's and their items, enchanter supports and their items, and tanks and their items (thornmail, etc.) are by no means the ONLY issues, but they are the most visible. The fact is, a number of things have needed fixing for MANY patches, yet remain untouched either always or for a very long time before being nerfed (and probably given a compensatory buff that might even make the item or champ more op than before). Fixes could be simple adjustments often times and adjusted more from there, but instead we get long waits for some elaborate "solution" that ends up not working half the time and results in 10 more adjustments before they basically do what people who "know nothing" in low elo (like me) said should be done all along.

Example? Tank ekko. Spend half a season trying to balance him; settled on decreasing his base ad. What did many people of various elo's say to do all along? Decrease his base damage output. Wow - so hard right? Who would have thought of such a complex fix? Simple solutions like this are out there for many other issues, yet they don't get tried or are only used after 10 other things have failed and people have had to put up with a broken champ or item ruining the game for months. And it's only gotten worse over time. Having played for many seasons now, I would point back to around the time of the juggernaut rework as the origin of the balance team going downhill. Since then, there's almost always been one thing or another (an item(s), a champ(s), a class of champs, a role) that has carried too much power in deciding the outcome of the game compared to everything else. It's like Wickd put it - if I outplay someone in a matchup, but they win just because they have a certain item or champ, then there is generally something wrong with the balance of that item or champ.

I Main SwainOct 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Because... there's too damn much defensive itemization, buffing of defensive spells (like janna shield and ult), and not enough damage on other classes besides adc right now. In seasons past, ori combo would have solo deleted kog before his team could react - no further damage needed from anyone else on the team. So you are correct that in the current meta it would be ridiculous to expect kog to die there; however, it is even more ridiculous to accept this meta as OK/tolerable in any way shape or form.

im just gonna reply to this portion because i dont feel like getting in a long winded dealio. anyways, while youre right that ori combo can solo delete an adc, first of all (imo at least) there is enough time to react with her ult delay to be able to put some kind of defensive ability on him although just barely and only if youre fast, and second you would be right that he should have gotten deleted and they shouldnt have been able to react if it werent for the fact that the sejuani ult was a little early so kog's allies had plenty of time to react, it was about 2 seconds if i recall correctly before ori's ult hit, which is more than enough time to pile on defense in a game as fast paced as this. honestly, the way i see it, Team WE DID outplay C9 there. they had better organization and timing, and even so i would argue that your champions and items should play a MASSIVE role in who wins, especially considering that C9 took a more cc focused team rather than damage focused, so its natural for a defensive based team to be able to save their adc for long enough for the enemy teams cc to get burnt out. i have no problem with what happened. that being said as if said to other people i dont like the state of adc's atm by any means but i dont think either that we should call everything a result of them being OP

BlakexEkalbOct 24, 20171 votes

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I Main SwainOct 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You're missing the point. The reason people are annoyed by this is because the amount of shields and reductions that were used. This meta has been focused on ways to keep your adc alive, such as Locket, Knights Vow, Ardent Censer, Ardent Censer, Ardent Censer, Ardent Censer, and also Ardent Censer.

well from what ive seen it seems like most people are just generally complaining and saying "wow adcs are so op ardent censor is so op that was a perfect teamfight with tons of damage he should have been killed". also, as a side note, i really wish people would shut up about ardent especially considering that its got a MASSIVE nerf on the pbe right now

edit: actually scratch that it just shipped to live a few hours ago, check out the patch notes