When even the casters are breaking Riot's TOS...

theTyger·Mar 15, 2018·7 votes·2,394 views

Quote from Zirene: When I play on my smurf for like a month and I'm just crushing kids in silver and then I go play on my main account I make such stupid decisions because I'm still in like that silver mentality where I'm like I can get away with anything. We're just way better. I'm just like way better than these guys.

I am not a good player. I have never, even briefly, been higher than Silver 2 and I've never finished a season higher than Silver 3. I'll never be a pro player and I'll be lucky to ever hit something as lowly as Gold. And I'm ok with that. I still love to get into a ranked game, try hard, and try to see if I can climb a little bit higher than previous seasons. It's fun to compete with people who are roughly around my skill level.

You know what isn't fun, getting stuck in a ranked game with someone who clearly doesn't belong in my elo. There is nothing as frustrating, aggravating, and humiliating as having some random smurf on the enemy team run around and ROFL stomp everyone on my team, myself included, as if we were little better than bots. So, everytime I see someone with several solo kills and 120 cs at 15 minutes, you better believe I take screenshots, check out their op.gg, screenshot that as well, and then send a report into Riot via a support ticket (assuming their op.gg account shows irregular activity as opposed to them just having the game of their life).

This ends up being a pretty big time sink and there are times when it literally happens every 2nd or 3rd game (particularly right around end of season and during pre-season). At times, I'll quit League for months at a time over this sort of thing. Which, since I seriously doubt I'm the only one to ever rage quit over this issue, has got to cost Riot quite a bit of green. To say nothing about it obviously ruining the competitive integrity of the game.

So imagine my surprise when one of Riot's longest standing casters admits on air to this behavior. Let me be perfectly clear. Diamond players DO NOT BELONG IN BRONZE AND SILVER GAMES. EVER. And the way the game and TOS are set up, there is no legitimate way for them to end up there. Let alone spend a month there on enough different occasions that they've been able to accurately track the effect that playing in lower elo's has had on their play when they go back to their main account.

Zirene, if you read this, I am a silver player and I am not a kid. I was serving in the military before, during, and after 9/11. I was overseas protecting American interests abroad literally before you hit middle school. I find your comments and behavior reprehensible and it is my sincere opinion that you owe the greater community an apology. I have reported you via Riot's internal ticketing system and it is my hope Riot will use this as an opportunity to send a message to the community and take a stand against behavior that is clearly not in the best interest of the game and it's competitive integrity.

31 Comments

HalcyonDwellerMar 15, 20184 votes

{quoted}

There is nothing as frustrating, aggravating, and humiliating as having some random smurf on the enemy team run around and ROFL stomp everyone on my team, myself included, as if we were little better than bots.

With you 100% on this. It ruins the game for everyone who plays with/against the smurf, and it ruins the competitive integrity of the game.

theTygerMar 15, 20182 votes

Thank you! I greatly appreciate your taking the time to comment. <3 [galio-happy]

HalcyonDwellerMar 15, 20182 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

How would you go about attempting to detect smurfs? Just out of curiosity, because wanting it solved is all well and good, but being able to accurately identify and punish accounts belonging to the same person is significantly harder.

I have my own ideas which I'll share later, but I'd like to get your thoughts first before I corrupt your thinking with my own ideas.

theTygerMar 15, 20181 votes

I think that is an excellent question! For me, when I go to file a ticket, I go and look at op.gg. If they're crap on one set of champs for several seasons in a row and then out of nowhere switch to a completely new champ they've never played before and are spontaneiously gods on them, to me that's a pretty good indication something funny is going on there.

That being said, in this instance we have someone admitting to smurfing (and a very public facing Riot employee no less) and keeping an account in a far, far lower elo than he should be playing in for a month at a time (which, from what I know of the MMR system shouldn't be possible without some TOS violating shenanigans).

Best case scenario, you've got a Riot employee who is playing in an elo he knows he doesn't belong in and is doing it with the stated purpose of, "crushing kids."

The thing that surprises me the most is the lack of outrage in the community. I don't understand how people aren't pissed off.

HalcyonDwellerMar 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think that is an excellent question! For me, when I go to file a ticket, I go and look at op.gg. If they're crap on one set of champs for several seasons in a row and then out of nowhere switch to a completely new champ they've never played before and are spontaneiously gods on them, to me that's a pretty good indication something funny is going on there.

Okay so correct me if I'm wrong, but this could be summarized as, "looking for sudden changes in play patterns to determine if the account could have switched owners?"

That being said, in this instance we have someone admitting to smurfing (and a very public facing Riot employee no less) and keeping an account in a far, far lower elo than he should be playing in for a month at a time (which, from what I know of the MMR system shouldn't be possible without some TOS violating shenanigans).

Best case scenario, you've got a Riot employee who is playing in an elo he knows he doesn't belong in and is doing it with the stated purpose of, "crushing kids."

Yes, public admission of a wrongdoing should certainly warrant at least an investigation by Riot's Player Behavior team.

The thing that surprises me the most is the lack of outrage in the community. I don't understand how people aren't pissed off.

I'm with you, but I think I also know why. Lots of people in the community have smurf accounts, some have many smurf accounts. It's a lot harder to motivate people to push for a loophole to be fixed if they themselves are taking advantage of the loophole too.

Also there are some vaguely legitimate reasons to smurf, for example an unnamed user that I know of has smurfed and played non-carrying roles in order to help newer players learn the game, and to counterbalance for all of the mean smurfs that exist in the early levels. This user does not do anything to directly make the team win the game, but will support newer players in making plays and will coach them on strategies to get better.

theTygerMar 16, 20181 votes

I like a lot of what you say.

First and foremost, yes. Looking for drastic changes in play patterns. With the recent surge in AI, this should be more doable than ever. Maybe don't leave the final say to AI, but at least let it point the Behavior Team in the right direction.

There are smurf accounts and there are smurf accounts. I have three different accounts myself, but each one was originally set up to let me try a new role in ranked without hurting my main account. All three accounts are roughly the same elo and all of them were started by me at level 1. None are purchased and if I'm playing in ranked, I'm doing my best to climb regardless of what role I'm playing.

I also tend to wonder if the people most affected by people high elo players invading lower elo's might be less represented in the forums. ie Casual silver and bronze players may not be as likely to participate in the forums.

HalcyonDwellerMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I like a lot of what you say.

Well thank you!

First and foremost, yes. Looking for drastic changes in play patterns. With the recent surge in AI, this should be more doable than ever. Maybe don't leave the final say to AI, but at least let it point the Behavior Team in the right direction.

YESSS!!! This is exactly what I want to see done.

There are smurf accounts and there are smurf accounts. I have three different accounts myself, but each one was originally set up to let me try a new role in ranked without hurting my main account. All three accounts are roughly the same elo and all of them were started by me at level 1. None are purchased and if I'm playing in ranked, I'm doing my best to climb regardless of what role I'm playing.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, can you please clarify?

I also tend to wonder if the people most affected by people high elo players invading lower elo's might be less represented in the forums. ie Casual silver and bronze players may not be as likely to participate in the forums.

I wouldn't know, but it's true that only a small subset of the playerbase has the traits necessary to feel motivated to come to these forums. I don't know if that skews things more towards one ELO or another though.

MrHaZeYoMar 15, 20183 votes

Except Riot doesn't care if you smurf. They care if you boost.

Pro players and major streamers all have multipal accounts, and to get them all to D+ they would of needed to start from the ground up at some point.

theTygerMar 15, 20181 votes

I have multiple accounts. But I've worked with semi-pro players in the past. You may not start in Diamond when you play a brand new account, but you don't start in Silver typically either. And even if you did, you sure as hell wouldn't be there for a full month. Particularly while you were "crushing kids."

MrHaZeYoMar 15, 20181 votes

The point was they don't care if you have multiple accounts, as long as you're not boosting.

theTygerMar 15, 20181 votes

They do care if you account share (or purchase an account). They also care if you purposely throw matches. Both violate Riot's TOS. And those are the only two ways a Diamond player repeatedly ends up in Silver (again, with the stated purpose of "crushing kids").

MrHaZeYoMar 15, 20181 votes

Maybe he's not purposely losing? Maybe he just isn't hard carrying? I think you're looking way to much into it.

theTygerMar 15, 20181 votes

Except that doesn't fit with what he's saying. He's saying he's purposely going into a league three full tiers below his own to "crush kids." This clearly doesn't promote a fun, fair, or even competitive gaming environment. It's just one guy going into games where people are trying to climb the ladder and stomping all over them because he can. Seriously. WTF.

It'd be like Clayton Kershaw finding some loophole that let him go back and play Division 3 college baseball just so he could stroke his own ego by destroying everyone.

FawkseaMar 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Except Riot doesn't care if you smurf. They care if you boost.

Pro players and major streamers all have multipal accounts, and to get them all to D+ they would of needed to start from the ground up at some point.

i belive rito gives diamond+ accounts to lcs players sometimes

SlythionMar 15, 20181 votes

Is smurfing really technically against the TOS or is it just boosting?

theTygerMar 15, 20184 votes

I think it depends. If you mean by smurfing that you simply have multiple accounts some of which are lower elo than your main accounts simply because you don't play them as much, then no. However, if you buy an account and/or purposely lose games/work the system to keep yourself in low elo so you can "crush kids," then yes, you're violating Riot's TOS.

Mig89Mar 15, 20181 votes

Where did he mention buying an account. I saw the interview and dont remember him saying so.

theTygerMar 15, 20181 votes

Let's start with what he did say. He seemed to indicate that he has played in Silver for a month at a time several times over the course of his LoL career and that he does it to "crush kids."

So how does a Diamond player end up in Silver on purpose? He either buys an account, or levels up a new one and purposely sandbags, ie Trolls, to end up in an elo significantly lower than where he belongs. Both violate Riot's TOS.

Mig89Mar 15, 20181 votes

OR.... He dodges promos. Thats all it would take to not actually climb. Put the tin foil hat away bro.

HalcyonDwellerMar 15, 20181 votes

That wouldn't work, MMR is how you're matched with players, not rank.

A person could have Bronze 5 rank but Diamond 3 MMR and they would get matched with Diamond 3s. It wouldn't matter how many promos they dodge.

IfnethMar 15, 20181 votes

Hence the Bronze V Challenger.

theTygerMar 15, 20181 votes

Well said. But that's still exactly what I'm talking about. Riot's TOS and MMR system are supposed to keep the game fair and fun for everyone. ie You're not supposed to be facing Diamond players in Silver. And dodging games can still definitely earn you a penalty.

People who purposely subvert or otherwise circumvent the system for their own personal gain at the expense of others should be banned.

Mig89Mar 15, 20181 votes

I dont agree but we dont have to. I see nothing wrong with staying in a rank if you dodge your promos. Liek Halcyon dweller said youll be playing higher ranks anyways. He could just play a couple games a month and never really raise the rank of the account. who knows. I only commented because it seemed like youre trying to make a mountain out of a molehill in this situation. If he wants to play silvers nothing is going to stop him and its not against the rules unless he bought the account or is throwing games on purpose.

theTygerMar 15, 20181 votes

{quoted} I see nothing wrong with staying in a rank if you dodge your promos.

Certain behaviors are toxic and ruin the game for other players. Trolling is toxic behavior. It's not fun to play a game when there's a player on your team purposely trying to screw people over. Flaming people in chat is toxic behavior. It's not fun to play when someone decides to curse repeatedly at you in chat. Smurfing is toxic behavior (yes, I said it). It's not fun to play against someone who is worlds better than you and is only there to enjoy "crushing kids" he knows don't have the skill to match him. In a lot of ways it's worse than the other two behaviors. People troll and flame a lot of the time in reaction to things that happen in games. Smurfing is by its nature always premeditated. You have to plan ahead to be an asshat and, often times, it involves other behaviors that are in direct violation of the TOS. ie purchasing an account, purposely throwing matches, even dodging is technically a violation of the rules and you can get a penalty for doing it (ie being put in a lower priority queue).

Personally, I think there needs to be much harsher and much more visible penalties for working the system to stay in an elo you don't belong in.

If he wants to play silvers nothing is going to stop him and its not against the rules unless he bought the account or is throwing games on purpose.

A good ban would stop him. So would other punishments that more directly affect his career. And all the behaviors described in this post that would keep him in low elo are all punishable offenses in this game. I think he should suffer a suspension from employment and be forced to issue a public apology.

Besides, isn't that argument a bit like saying, "welp, people gonna commit murder no matter what we do, so what's the point of laws?"

III BAKURYU III Mar 15, 20181 votes

What's stopping let's say Challenger, Diamond, plat etc type of players from creating a new account and having to play from the bottom up? Long story short, we all will get those "smurfs" in our games from time to time.

With your and I quote - "I am not a good player. I have never, even briefly, been higher than Silver 2 and I've never finished a season higher than Silver 3. I'll never be a pro player and I'll be lucky to ever hit something as lowly as Gold." Means that even with or without these setbacks your limits have been reached and you will most likely stay in Silver for the rest of our gaming career. Counter-argument would be "I want to have fun" really has 1 simple answer - normals.

" I was serving in the military before, during, and after 9/11. I was overseas protecting American interests abroad literally before you hit middle school"
First I want to say Thank you, good sir, for serving the military(I'm possibly joining myself here soon) but that really has no weight in the world of video games. Simpler terms, no one really cares. Hell, look at the economy and what we do and for our own veterans of this world/country.......nothing.

theTygerMar 15, 20181 votes

You make a good point and I greatly appreciate your well thought out response. However, here's what Zirene seems to indicate. His statements suggest he has repeatedly played in Silver for as long as a month at a time with the stated purpose of, "crushing kids."

Here's the thing, Diamond players who start new accounts don't typically end up in Silver during placements. And even if they do, they don't spend a month there. The MMR system figures out they don't belong there pretty quick and they end up skipping divisions. That is, unless, they purposely lose matches, go afk, etc.

The point is, there should be no legitimate way for a Diamond player to repeatedly end up in Silver, to say nothing of them being there for a solid month.

As far as joining the military goes, really do your homework before signing any paperwork. Doing recruiting duty can very literally make or BREAK your career, so a lot of recruiters can get a bit unscrupulous. At least that's the way it was when I was in. So be very careful.

Also, I don't know if it's still possible, but you used to be able to visit bases with your delayed entry card. If you can, try to visit a base and talk to people who are doing the job you want to do. They can provide a lot of insight to what's it's really like. The good, bad, and the ugly. Best of luck to you. :)

III BAKURYU III Mar 15, 20181 votes

Matter of fact my father and mother were in the military so I always get told and still do today the skinny on what to do and what not to do etc. I appreciate you for being generous and informational with your response to me possibly joining in the near future. Yeah, I've been told to never take the words from the recruiters' words as gospel and always come to the meeting with tons of questions before joining such as GI bill, benefits, etc.

My point in which when I reread my own response kinda came off as rude per se which wasn't my intention!

"Here's the thing, Diamond players who start new accounts don't typically end up in Silver during placements. And even if they do, they don't spend a month there. The MMR system figures out they don't belong there pretty quick and they end up skipping divisions. That is, unless, they purposely lose matches, go afk, etc."

Great point, as far as "The MMR system figures out they don't belong there pretty quick and they end up skipping divisions" -
Now, IDK if the players that I encountered did, in fact, stay in Silver or moved up but I personally got frustrated starting a new season with my placements or just random games in ranked facing against players that were Diamond a year ago or decayed or lost or got boosted who knows!? However, the ranked system is flawed in which I think 70% of players will agree that it pretty much sucks; facing Gold players if you're in Bronze or Silver makes 0 sense( Can't get to Gold but I can face them?).
I won about 18 games in a row 2 years ago and never got the option to "skip a division" when I was in Silver 3/4, now imagine not going on an 18 game winning streak but instead, you lose a game here and there. The MMR system is not a very good standard because (Not 100% sure) but it's been quoted by numerous players and maybe Riot themselves the MMR system doesn't matter in the slightest.

My point being is if it's not Zireane it's someone else whos losing games on purpose because if you're Plat-Gold-Diamond and you know for a fact you're not going pro you might as well decay on purpose to say Silver if your Diamond and "destroy kids" because why not, it's funnier and you win more games.
It's very similar to say Halo back in the day where you lose 20 games on purpose only to say "boost" from the depth and win 40 games within a short span of time.

IDK what to tell you, sir.

theTygerMar 15, 20181 votes

Well said. I remember one season where due to some weird MMR issues, going on a 9 game winning streak didn't even get me to promos. I think I was in Silver 5 at the time.

I think context is important. At that time it was preseason, I'd been playing a lot of new stuff, I was still relatively new to the game, and I think I'd accidently dropped my MMR by a huge margin. But, because I was in Silver, it wasn't enough to drop me back down to Bronze.

I also tend to wonder if Riot's MMR system secretly also watches for things like actions per minute or percentage of hit skill shots or something. ie Going on an amazing win rate doesn't start auto-jumping you through divisions, but if you have a high win rate and a certain number of APM or something, then you get auto-jumped.

The issue I have with Zirene is that he is a Riot employee, and a very public facing one. Riot's TOS are supposed to help keep the game fair and fun for everyone. Facing off against an opponent way better than you isn't fair or fun. But, with the TOS you have some agency when this happens. If someone seems like they're smurfing, like I said, I take screenshots of the game and their op.gg and I submit a ticket. And I have seen results from doing this. But I still run into people doing this. And when an on air broadcaster openly admits to doing something that would almost certainly require him to break the TOS, to me it just tells everyone that it's totally ok to do. And that's not ok.

III BAKURYU III Mar 15, 20181 votes

I stated in the past especially in promos the only thing that matters is "CS" per minute mainly but a bit per game too(per game is harder because long games play a factor).

Let's be frank "winning" doesn't matter cause you can win 9/10 and still get placed low elo, losing vice versa obviously, kills don't matter cause anyone can pick Katarina or Akali every game and same can be said about roles and kill participation in which it's not hard to just fight, fight, fight 24/7. I'm still banking on "CS" is the end-all-be-all when it comes to MMR personally when it comes to promos and a small margin when it comes to games after + winning doesn't hurt but only AFTER your promo games.
Something pros ALWAYS stated and still do is "high elo players worry about CS more than anything" and we see that from casters in the LCS games where Bjergsen is down 2 cs and the casters go absolute apeshit for minutes on how he's down 2 cs to his opponent.

Anyone wanting to get in a decent division/rank

Get to at least Silver in year one and have a winning % above 46%
Year two -during your promo games worry about CS per min and per game but also try to win games too and the other things also(Kill participation, kills etc)

" I also tend to wonder if Riot's MMR system secretly also watches for things like actions per minute or percentage of hit skill shots or something. ie Going on an amazing win rate doesn't start auto-jumping you through divisions, but if you have a high win rate and a certain number of APM or something, then you get auto-jumped"

Not sure about the APM because if that's the case tanks/top and support and jungler players are screwed. The one thing that saves support players with my topic above is how well their adc can "CS" and how well such support keeps the adc alive. Junglers it's the same but with how well they can "cs" in the jungle and counter jungle/objectives also.

" The issue I have with Zirene is that he is a Riot employee, and a very public facing one. Riot's TOS are supposed to help keep the game fair and fun for everyone. Facing off against an opponent way better than you isn't fair or fun. But, with the TOS you have some agency when this happens. If someone seems like they're smurfing, like I said, I take screenshots of the game and their op.gg and I submit a ticket. And I have seen results from doing this. But I still run into people doing this. And when an on air broadcaster openly admits to doing something that would almost certainly require him to break the TOS, to me it just tells everyone that it's totally ok to do. And that's not ok."

I understand and know exactly what you mean and I agree 100% on the merits of Zireane being a Riot Employee is a huge disservice to the community. That part I'm not disagreeing with you.

theTygerMar 15, 20182 votes

PS Whether or not I ever make it out of Silver is irrelevant. The match making system is in place to make sure that matches are more or less even. There's even a version of it in normals, though it's not as strict. It sucks to go into a game and not be able to do anything because there's a player whose just vastly better than anyone else on either team. Hence why Riot's TOS aim to prevent account sharing in the first place.

Also, on my mentioning my vet status. My point is you never know who you're playing with/against. Personally, I don't like being referred to as "kid." Particularly not by someone more than 10 years my junior and especially when I was in harms way protecting his freedoms before he was old enough to shave. I'd find it just as insulting if I were Phd recipient, famous celebrity, or Congressmen. And there are examples of all three who play LoL and who are, in all likelihood, below Gold elo.

InTheKappaWeTrusAug 13, 20181 votes

Smurfing is not against the ToS and even if it is and I'm mistaken Riot doesn't punish it because it doesn't matter to them. Also, you can literally boost your friends with duo q and it's not bannable because "you're just duoing" unless they get evidence that you paid for it which then it is bannable. And to add in addition I don't see why you got so offended by Zirene saying "crushing kids in silver" like chill dude it's just an exaggeration your age and hell your profession doesn't matter don't know why you needed to say that... (let me know what happened with that ticket if u do end up reading this)