Well, at least TSM made SSW work for their win

John Berserk·Oct 3, 2014·6 votes·2,891 views

First two games were flat out embarrassing to watch, honestly.

Third game, TSM did a good job at punishing SSW for their arrogance. They needed a bit of a slap back into reality that they were not immortal Gods who could beat any weak lowly NA team even with the worst early game comp imaginable in this meta.

Fourth game, it almost happened again. Had SSW not snowballed quite so hard as they did, I feel like a second TSM victory was a very, very real possibility. Alas, it wasn't meant to be. But hey, that game was nothing like games 1 and 2 where SSW just danced on top of TSM, they actually had to work for that one, and making probably the strongest team in the world (they look leagues stronger than SSB honestly) bleed once, then work for their final victory right after, that's more than we could have hoped for from TSM.

You did good TSM. Better luck next year.

32 Comments

John BerserkOct 3, 20144 votes

Now for C9 to show Korea what NA is really capable of on the strategy front. The chances of C9 taking out SSB aren't very high, but I think they're much higher than TSM's chances against SSW, and look how well they ended up performing.

So long as C9 plays the way they did when they beat NWS, they should really give SSB a run for their money.

WullfOct 3, 20141 votes

you sound like as if NA teams are just pebbles on the road of Asian teams to win the championship. And the only thing they can affect is how big struggle they give to the team they are bound to lose to.

MrSc0ttyOct 3, 20141 votes

you sound like as if NA teams are just pebbles on the road of Asian teams to win the championship. And the only thing they can affect is how big struggle they give to the team they are bound to lose to.

Yeah, pretty much. In any E-sports scene, non Asian teams only exist if the Asian teams aren't allowed to just take non-Asians slots.

And oh look a Chinese team was in one of the NA slots this year.

Wonder how many there'll be next year.

TPBxOct 8, 20141 votes

Riot is taking big steps to make sure that another LMQ is not happening again (unfortunately). Next LCS, each team is limited to only 2 foreign players. If a team already has a team with more than 2 foreign players, ie TSM and LMQ, they are allowed to keep these teams, however if they need a sub, they must select a North American citizen(Canada or US) that plays on the North American server.

Also you must have a very limited view of who dominates what esports scene. Korea is only good at Starcraft and League. Europeans are dominant in competitive CS:S or CS:GO. South East Asia, Europe, and America are on more or less equal ground at at DOTA and Korea is terrible. Obviously America is really good at Call of Duty, Battlefield, and a lot of other fps games, and in addition to that we are also the best in the world at competitive Super Smash Bros, with godlike players like Mew2King and Mango pretty much winning every tournament. If you want to go into popular rhythm games, Japan pretty much dominates the competitive scene of that in games like IIDX, Osu, DDR, and specifically in the game Osu, the top region is Japan, however the second best region is Europe and they are neck and neck.

There are a lot of other esports scenes to look into that may not be mainstream, but are definitely not dominated by Asian teams, or specifically Koreans.

John BerserkOct 3, 20142 votes

They kind of were, back in Season 3, but now NA is more like boulders on the road that Korea actually has to work to get around, as opposed to being able to just simply step over, and I feel like we're at least even with China (mostly because they all gain advantages and lose games the same exact way, due to over-aggression).

Every region is getting better with each season, including Korea, but EU and (especially) NA I feel are improving the fastest, and it won't be too long until we're able to take them out every other game at least, as opposed to every 2-3 years. However, we are just not at that point yet. Korea's top teams are better mechanically than our top teams, and they do a better job at capitalizing on the advantages that gives them ingame than any other region, but our wins over them at this Worlds shows we are definitely capable of outsmarting them strategically, and that right now is our best hope for putting up a good fight.

Earl EulrichOct 3, 20141 votes

I think EU actually got worse...the only team really bein able to perform on the very top is fnatic and they´re way to inconsistent (mostly since they lack a strong gambit as competition). Alliance and Sk are too much reliant on opponent mistakes, instead of making plays themselves. My only hope for Eu to step up is actually Unicorns next Season.

John BerserkOct 3, 20141 votes

I dont think they necessarily got worse, I think at their best EU is at least as good as NA, but EU in general is SUPER inconsistent. Alliance and Fnatic are excellent teams, they're definitely the LEAST inconsistent of the EU teams, but their inner EU spirit just chose to go on tilt at the wrong times, and they should have been more assertive in general. Being assertive and outsmarting your opponents is how you beat super aggressive teams that can outplay you in teamfights, and they (at least Alliance) just weren't doing that.

Also by the end of the summer split, SK just was not near the same level as Fnatic or Alliance, whereas NA had LMQ, C9 and TSM coming into worlds as SUPER strong and dominant teams, so, as harsh as it might be to say, EU really only had two hopefuls this year at worlds as opposed to three.

IX MoNsTaR XIOct 3, 20141 votes

I disagree. If you look at the Korean teams, they are 19-4 throughout Worlds as of today; NA is 12-11; China is 12-7 (not necessary to show EU and GPL W/L for this argument). Head-to-head is more definitive. Korea is 6-2 vs NA right now in Worlds. It's hardly even. Because of the dubious nature of competitiveness in league (snowballing, by definition, is uncompetitive as it unlevels the playing field (does LeBron James get better at his jumper or his 3 each time he makes one? The two are not correlated) I wouldn't even call these two losses anything to cheer about. I am a fan of NA, but Korea's early game is unmatched, and this is what gets the snowball rolling. As long as they are the best at early game or as long as the game is about snowballing, they will never be challenged.

John BerserkOct 3, 20141 votes

What are you disagreeing with, exactly?

JesotOct 4, 20141 votes

I think NA has caught up to China and GPL, and since China and GPL have won the last two Worlds, respectively, and Korea has yet to pull it off, NA is good enough.

It'd be shocking, but wouldn't require a miracle for C9 to win this. The big weakness for TSM vs. SSW was Amazing vs Dandy (jungle in general is the biggest weakness in NA). Meteos helps a lot in this situation. I can see C9 beating SSB. It'd be a miracle for them to go through both SSB and SSW, though.

C9 doesn't have the same problems vs Korean teams that TSM has had.

John BerserkOct 4, 20142 votes

I agree that C9 wont have as bad a time against SSB as TSM had against SSW, but I think you may be a bit misinformed or confused. China has never won Worlds, and Korea won last season.

Season 1: Fnatic (EU) Season 2: Taipei Assassins (GPL) Season 3: SK Telecom T1 K (OGN) Season 4: TBD

KaisunaOct 4, 20141 votes

The big weakness for TSM vs. SSW was Amazing vs Dandy (jungle in general is the biggest weakness in NA).

To be fair Amazing has not been with TSM for nearly as long as Dandy was with SSW so the synergy was ALOT off between these two squads.

NeroUSOct 3, 20142 votes

I think the real measure of the NA region is C9 since LMQ is a transplant team and TSM has a lot of transplant players as well. C9 was nowhere near this good last season. It's amazing that they could even take a game off of Najin White Shield.

I think it just shows how much LMQ developed the NA region. Now, we need a Riot to allow a Korean team to move to NA so that NA can get another boost. In fact, I would consider having a foreign team that rotates into the NA LCS each season from whichever region wins Worlds.

Can C9 beat SSB? Of course, Cloud 9 could beat them. Is it likely? Probably not but that doesn't mean a loss is a foregone conclusion. The good news is that it is more practice for NA against good teams.

IX MoNsTaR XIOct 3, 20142 votes

I agree. I believe LMQ forced NA teams to step up their game. Primarily, it challenged the kings of NA, C9 and TSM, to get even better.

Then this, in turn, forced the lower teams to get better. Curse and EG made leaps and bounds in their ability to win games this season. If I am not mistaken, Curse and EG were the two best teams in the last two weeks of the Summer Split (in terms of W/L as weighted versus the teams they placed--I think Curse went 3-1 in Super Week but they played TSM, C9, and LMQ + one other team).

Responding to your second paragraph: I think that Riot is taking a gamble with passing their "Keeping it in the Region" rules. Like it or not, you can't deny that the infusion of foreign players into NA has made it the greatest NA season thus far and made it, in my honest opinion, the second-best region behind Korea right now. To take the air out of the wings of this development is unwelcome news, but I understand the point of view. Riot doesn't like the imbalance of regions any more than we do. They analyzed the situation and they had two options: Allow Koreans/Chinese to saturate other regions, or "force" the other regions to develop their own talent/eSports infrastructure. They proceeded with the latter. Whether this gamble will pay off, only time will tell.

Earl EulrichOct 4, 20141 votes

Responding to your second paragraph: I think that Riot is taking a gamble with passing their "Keeping it in the Region" rules. Like it or not, you can't deny that the infusion of foreign players into NA has made it the greatest NA season thus far and made it, in my honest opinion, the second-best region behind Korea right now.

Yea, it really saddens me to see that they want to "water down" competition by shuting down all pressure from outside...I mean, what´s the point of winning worlds if you have a save job by just being best in your region? Why would you want to walk the extra mile if you can just rest ashured that you´ll win your region and noone is gonna take that from you? I think this really is a sad move for competitive esports...I really don´t care if the best teams in the Eu-LCS would be of Korean Origin, as long as that makes sure they play on the very top of the game...and are not going to worlds just to get schooled.

NeroUSOct 7, 20142 votes

It's not that I don't agree that it's important to have native talent. Non-Koreans cannot even play on the Korean servers without a Korean making an account for them, since it requires a Korean SSN.

European countries far more restrictive rules determining who can work in a particular place than America does and these rules help them develop their own talent by preventing other people from out competing them before they can develop their own infrastructure.

However, it seems important to strike a balance between protecting local talent from being out-competed to the point where it disappears (bad) and protecting it from any competition at all, enabling it to stagnate (also bad).

It seems that there needs to be (to my mind) a quota of 1-2 teams brought in from other regions. I'm not sure how it should be structured but it should be organized so as to ensure there is always top quality competition in NA.

Cuoco DiavoloOct 3, 20142 votes

Gonna be honest the biggest weakness that the non korean teams have and it saddens me cause these are my main roles is having a diverse champ pool in top and jungle. NA teams seem to be terrified of breaking the meta which saddens me cause they are scared to make innovations. I take great pride in my 10+ champ pool for each role and it makes me that much of a stronger player. However seeing Dyrus on lulu made me realize how chained TSM was by the meta. It was a we banned Mao and ali they banned rumble and first picked Ryze guys what are the other meta picks for top lulu locks in lulu doesn't play well in the game. If they were willing to bring out other picks that didn't follow the meta I feel TSM could have possibly won 2 or even games or even beat SSW by pulling off better outplays.

KSHarrisonOct 3, 20141 votes

TSM wasn't prepped for that level 1 stuff. SSW and TSM were scrim partners, probably SSW noticed this weakness in TSM and exploited it. I think that put TSM on tilt. The problem is that training against the myriad things that can go wrong is impossible in NA. TSM probably encountered so many different tactics on a level they've never seen before and had around a month to adapt.

Hopefully next year things will go better. NA as a region is improving quickly so there's a chance that TSM will have less catching up to do when they reach worlds.

IX MoNsTaR XIOct 3, 20143 votes

This is why there MUST me more international play. Take a college + major league sport, for example. You could be the best college football team in the country, but it is still not the highest level of football to be played. But then if Worlds comes along, you are expected to play vs the best teams in the NFL. No matter how good you are, the NFL is just so much more developed, much more advanced, much more talented. You cannot help but be at a disadvantage because the format, the environment in which you play and train and work, is ultimately inferior. This is so well-documented, it is flabbergasted why there is no action by Riot to remedy this. Like EU wrecks NA in soccer (football), or NA owns the world in basketball. It is just the nature of the subject.

KSHarrisonOct 3, 20141 votes

I agree more international exposure--rather, more Korean exposure--would help out other regions a lot. But then we have to wonder: what's the best way to go about it?

We have two issues I can see:

Koreans gain nothing from international tournaments. If we overexpose them to these events, they will just stop attending them in favor of OGN-sponsored ones with only Korean teams and more prestige.
It would cheapen the impact of Worlds. What's the point of Worlds if we have 3 or 4 other tournaments during the year where the top teams from every region play each other?

Regarding point 2, there's some argument for a format like tennis, for example, but you need a larger viewer base to support this as well as more equality between regions and representation from countries so that fans don't get tired of the same results over and over. Also, the tennis format comes at significant expense to local/regional tournaments.

IX MoNsTaR XIOct 3, 20141 votes

Well said for both points. Perhaps Riot could sponsor international training sessions between seasons or at certain times of the year. Although, I have no idea of the costs involved, and this alone could make this idea impractical. Barring some sort of phenomenal expansion in the infrastructure of fiber-optic internet that connects all the regions in a few years, the task of increasing international exposure is daunting.

I will say that I believe Riot is working well towards developing the other regions, and I think it is plain to see that NA and EU significantly improved this year, both in talent, team support structure, and overall eSports infrastructure. Perhaps the solution to the inequalities of the leagues is already in motion.

KSHarrisonOct 4, 20141 votes

One advantage we have seen is that NA/EU are attractive ways to turn a pro gaming career into a long-term investment. Players who travel to NA/EU get their foot in the door into Western cultures, grow personally from being abroad, and can better master English. I think this has been instrumental in improving NA, for example.

The region locking has one positive aspect: It maintains the integrity of a local competitive environment. For example, if 3 Korean teams came to NA/EU and started dominating, they would eventually only scrim with themselves and effectively shut out the competition and stunt local growth. Although there are probably a number of factors helping here, I don't think there are enough strong Korean teams to split between NA/EU to dominate either region. Still, even one or two Korean/CN teams that beat out our weaker teams inhibits player development long term, and as our old talent retires it would be harder to find enough new talent to retain a performance standard.

I do think we are better poised in terms of infrastructure, the fact that it's a team game (so teams can bring in foreigners to effect internal improvement without the same impact of stunting the region's growth as bringing an entire foreign team), and the financial reward is enough to sustain the Western scenes, so we are less likely to see the same thing that happened with SC occur in LoL.

JesotOct 4, 20141 votes

I partly agree. I think it'd bring the regions closer together as far as parity goes, and would help curb the massive advantage the Asian teams have over NA. But part of the great thing about Worlds is seeing the clash of styles.

Asians have 3 leagues and it doesn't take much for them to interleague scrim. EU and NA don't have near that level of competition in their neighbors. LA/BR is basically Bronze League teams, and EU has Russia and Turkey which is better, but still not comparable to having 3 leagues with 8 spots in Worlds.

Expanding LCS and doing more for the Challenger series would do wonders. The pro/semi-pro game should be more accessible to teams that don't have much in the way of sponsors.

12talesOct 3, 20141 votes

It's telling how low our standards have fallen.

IX MoNsTaR XIOct 3, 20142 votes

That we are celebrating winning one game off a Korean team, you mean? I agree. This victory is only delusional.

KaisunaOct 3, 20141 votes

TSM played well Vs a much better version of themselves, on another note I was surprised that WIldTurtle was not only able to keep up with Imp but beat him in lane but the fact that SSW was able to adapt to that and not even be bothered by it threw TSM with their unusual play style. TSM did all they could and had nothing to prove to the Korean's they are still the best team in North America (and better than all EU teams and better than CLG) C9 has the best chance as far as a North American team going to the Semi Finals. The biggest problem with TSM this tournament was they haven't had a lot of time together as a team to build good synergy which was potentially their downfall in this tournament.

12talesOct 3, 20141 votes

on another note I was surprised that WIldTurtle was not only able to keep up with Imp but beat him in lane

This would be a lot more surprising if every matchup wasn't Lucian/Corki vs. Tristana/Twitch. It'd be kinda embarrassing if WildTurtle wasn't up in CS.

JesotOct 4, 20141 votes

It wasn't just the CS, though. When Turtle's on point, he's as good as any ADC out there.

JesotOct 4, 20141 votes

TSM dropped the ball in Game 4. If TSM moved to Korea, they'd get to the same level as SSB & SSW. They just don't have the consistent level of competition in NA to scrim against. They play against the same tired old teams all the time. I feel NA needs to put more resources into the Challenger series to help create stronger teams at the lower and middle tiers. TSM, C9, and LMQ match Korea and China with individual players, but they don't face much variety in quality team strats.

John BerserkOct 4, 20143 votes

Well if you watched the NA LCS near the end, particularly during the Summer Playoffs, not only were LMQ, C9, and TSM the top dogs, but both Curse AND EG were showing MASSIVE improvements, enough so to be near the level of the previous three.

With those two teams showing up big time, and assuming Dignitas and CLG can fix their problems and get back to being on the same level as C9 and TSM again, the NA LCS is looking VERY strong for this upcoming 2015 Season.