Na a Minor region?

ßårbarïcChámpîõn·Apr 21, 2019·4 votes·3,166 views

MSI 2019 Play-In Draw Show Guide

I was unaware a region that just made it to world's semi-final, the region to CRUSH! the last Korean hope, to defeat the reigning world champions, and a region that has franchised would be considered a minor region. If this was before 2018 worlds the argument could be their but as the latest results shown North America was the 3rd best preforming region so they shouldn't be in the play in for MSI and should be directly in the group stage even if the argument that Korea is back to being the top region putting every other region down a spot would still make NA in the top 4 I don't know about you but 4th best in my book would still be considered a major region. would love some other input from others on this topic

27 Comments

GeminiRuneApr 21, 20191 votes

Looks like someone else didn't acknowledge that the Latin American regions merged coming into 2019.

This essentially removed one spot in Play-In teams, regressing the qualification process to its 2017 MSI format. Had it just been 4 teams straight to main stage, there'd only be 7 teams in the RR pool.

Since the aim is to keep 2 even groups for Play-In Round 1, they took one main spot and made Round 2 the same as it was in 2017, where 4 teams fight for the 3 spots.

And given its 2-year international success as the determining factor, NA unfortunately reclaimed its spot in Round 2 alongside LMS.

To answer your question, if you're throwing shade at NA, call them a Minor region. But now you know why this was done.

ßårbarïcChámpîõnApr 21, 20192 votes

see i am rather up to date on esports i actively watch all major regions and every now and then watch some minor regions, no i was not "throwing shade" if any one is it would be riot because they put NA in the minor region group and if they really wanted to give the minor regions a chance they would have the 7 teams other than NA play a best of 1 double round robin and from there they could take the top four teams and then 1 and 4 play a best of 5 followed up by the 2 and 3 team playing a best of 5. Also on the lines of the LMS it is a minor region. in recent years all of the regions success came from flash wolves and now that the region lost Karsa, Sword Art, and Mapple the team has definitely lost some of it's star power. with that said you can't viably determine that the LMS is a major region because flash wolves was the only team to ever really accomplish anything in a really long time. not to mention they also didn't make it out of groups this year at worlds.

GeminiRuneApr 21, 20191 votes

no i was not "throwing shade" if any one is it would be riot because they put NA in the minor region group

Only they're not in the round robin whatsoever. You could say they're easily gatekeepers.

If they really wanted to give the minor regions a chance they would have the 7 teams other than NA play a best of 1 double round robin and from there they could take the top four teams and then 1 and 4 play a best of 5 followed up by the 2 and 3 team playing a best of 5

That was exactly IWCI, where the teams played a single group RR followed by best of series playoffs to fight for one spot. And hardly anyone cared about that.

Also on the lines of the LMS it is a minor region. in recent years all of the regions success came from flash wolves and now that the region lost Karsa, Sword Art, and Mapple the team has definitely lost some of it's star power. with that said you can't viably determine that the LMS is a major region because flash wolves was the only team to ever really accomplish anything in a really long time. not to mention they also didn't make it out of groups this year at worlds.

If success is and talent in a region is how major and minor regions are factored these days, then you have answered your own question in regards to NA and LMS. Using Flash Wolves success in tandem with the non-success of other teams to determine a region's status: that's not how that works! Otherwise SKT and Samsung are arguably one of the only reasons Korea is a Major region. But when you get to this discussion, there's a ton of semantics and spins fans spew out to make their own point.

I have explained how and why NA was placed back into Round 2 of the Play-In. Why does that have to be a bad thing? Maybe think of it this way: If Riot based their seeding off of a single previous year rather than 2 years, the discussion would definitely be there as to whether NA or KR would slot in there. But you then get the same conflict of interest as now-seeded SKT would have to do Play-In as what you have anxiously established "minor region competition." The bar was never pushed: don't make it out as if that is the case we're seeing here. This has been done before and it wasn't that big of a problem. The team of the more stable, more renowned region came out on top and MSI was the same way it always is. That stability and foundation is what makes them Major Regions.

**Don't spin Play-In as some Minor Region or Wildcard term of competition. **

If you don't like Riot eSports enabling its lesser regions to feel part of greater competition more than they had with IWC tournaments, then that's you. If NA playing in Play-In with those other region teams is a problem here, then where's the take on Worlds where EU, CN, and LMS all have a team that does the same damn thing?

ßårbarïcChámpîõnApr 21, 20191 votes

well you brought up some points some of them valid and others not so much like the whole Korea thing. yes skt and ssg have been the more notable winners you also just totally forgot that firstly skt and ssg both had to defeat other Korean teams to win worlds, and the competition in Korea is MUCH stronger so that point you brought up was just a load of garbage and that is putting it nicely. Furthermore also want to point out that NA will get through the play in, that is just fact but i was simply pointing out that NA should be included with the major regions because there is a good chance Team liquid won't even drop a game against their opponent so where you were so kindly to point out that i was some how implying that i was against lesser regions being in the competition you could not be more wrong it would make total sense for the format for the play in to be a best of 1 double round robin so teams could get more international experience. and then after that take the 4 best team put them in a best of five and then send 2 teams forward to the main stage. I 100% think that the minor teams deserve a shot at international success. on the contrary I don't think you should be using this platform to talk down to a fellow community member who was simply voicing an opinion we both know you were trying to belittle me for absolutely no reason

ßårbarïcChámpîõnApr 21, 20191 votes

Also just wanted to add that other than last years msi where liquid did rather poorly NA did make it farther then any other minor region in international competition within those last 2 years

III BAKURYU III Apr 22, 20191 votes

" viably determine that the LMS is a major region because flash wolves was the only team to ever really accomplish anything in a really long time"

There's my Cloud 9/NA argument right there

GeminiRuneApr 21, 20191 votes

skt and ssg have been the more notable winners you also just totally forgot that firstly skt and ssg both had to defeat other Korean teams to win worlds, and the competition in Korea is MUCH stronger so that point you brought up was just a load of garbage and that is putting it nicely

No it's ridiculous. But if you're using Flash Wolves and why their fallouts = the entire LMS' fallouts, then you're making some really unfair statements if you're using the timeline as a reason they should not be considered a major region. And that is stupid. I'm saying that if the spread of Korean victory was more relevant than just SKT and SSG, there'd be more of a convincing talk in my rhetoric and I'd sound more ridiculous with the statement above.

The rest of your comment sounds like nitpicking at my comment and criticism of your comments following my own explanation as to why NA is where they are. It's hard these days to tell who's a neutral fan and who's out to throw a punch or believe in the hivemind. So on that context I will merely apologize. But if you want to know my opinion based off of your post: how about let's do away with this whole major and minor region talk! NA is where they are and I just shrug and roll with it. Believe in TL. I get to see more NA international play. The end. But that's me.

ßårbarïcChámpîõnApr 21, 20191 votes

ok so based on the last 2 worlds na made top 8 both times, and LMS didn't, that is just a fact.

Also, up until last year's world only 1 other Korean team didn't get out of groups the region of the LCK has been dominate ever since they have been introduced that is also a fact.

Next, not really sure what you mean by nit picking after the that quote you used i went on to talk about how na is stronger than those regions and past results support my statement .

Furthermore, i also gave what my idea was for how the play in should go i should of elaborated more. i personally think that na should not be in the play in and what they should do is a best of 1 double round robin between the remaining teams, and based off those results they should put the team that came in first against that came in fourth in a best of 5 and the winner of that moves on to the group stage. They should also do this with the teams that came in second and third. As a result this would allow the more developing regions more international exposure. I want to make my self clear i was not bashing on Korea, China, or Europe all of those regions are good in their own rights i was simply making the argument that North America should also be included with them due to their recent international success.

Finally on the account of the LMS flash wolves in recent years has been the lone shining star of the region. They have been very dominate domestically and if you simply just go look back at last years results they were the ONLY LMS team to even get a win in the group stage of last years world that is REALLY bad because if you look back g-rex the 3rd seed coming from the region couldn't even beat 100 thieves who had a substitute adc the whole time. with that said LMS should rightfully have to be in the play in unlike NA.

GeminiRuneApr 21, 20191 votes

Yknow what I'll just answer your title: NA a minor region? No. While they play in Round 2, the region is not minor status.

Take it or leave it.

Master KorrokApr 22, 20191 votes

I think it's bad because instead of the best of the wildcard regions getting in( If they had their own tournament and added a few slots to the main tourament), it ends up as a lottery system like at worlds as to who is going to play a major region and who isnt. I liked the idea of a play-ins when it first started as a way to help emerging regions but I feel like its fallen flat. I don't know the solution to the problem but the current system feels shitty for everyone.

GeminiRuneApr 23, 20191 votes

I would propose a season setting that doesn't fixate on history first and foremost. All history does these days is produce this kind of satire. Hell Reddit flipped their shit the other day because of the 5 major regions, NA was the only one to not be a 3-0. I think the community plays a part in making the system feel shitty, especially if one has to freak out about something like this thread.

The thing I feel is that I don't even think fans of those emerging regions care about the circlejerk major regions have. They back their team and fall to the next favor once out. But it sucks that it's only up to 2 teams twice a year. That leads to an entire format rebuild. I might make an open discussion on it.

Master KorrokMay 1, 20191 votes

If you do come post it here, I'd love to be a part of that discussion. I completely agree the "History" aspect of it is pretty useless, each patch is drastically different and for a single team at MSI to determine so much for their entire region on a completely different patch in a completely different tournament just feels so weird. Though if you look at this MSI Play-ins almost exactly what I said happened last time did this time as well, its a lottery and now arguably 2 of the best teams in play-ins are all in the same group and only one can get out.

GeminiRuneMay 1, 20191 votes

Hence the part of:

It sucks that it's only up to 2 teams twice a year. That leads to an entire format rebuild. I might make an open discussion on it.

6 games in now and among minor region discussion, the outcome is the same, especially among the more prominent and talked about reps. Part of me is like what if this was swiss format but I haven't drawn that out in my head.

My original point though was that history among major regions excluding LMS is sorely abused and fans dissolve its relevance unless a notable victory shows itself. Which is funny because that same gravitational case stirs its head today.

Following Day 1: Y'see if the day ended as intended your point of arguably 2 best would have more weight than it does now. But that's all Result Analysis

ModKnightsKemplarApr 21, 20191 votes

I think NA is still considered top 4 (or at least 5) here? Only 3 regions avoided playing in the play-ins (LPL, LCK, and LEC), so we're basically being placed one tier below that with LMS. And I think that's pretty fair. All 4 of those regions have world championships, and LEC went last year to finals. They should be ranked above NA.

ßårbarïcChámpîõnApr 21, 20192 votes

I mean sure you can look at it that way but i am pretty sure the whole point of play in is to give the minor regions a shot at international success but with NA in their most likely guarantee that they are getting one of the spots. yes those 3 regions have won worlds technically but i am rather sure that it is kind of universally excepted that season 1 (Europe) doesn't really count because now correct me if i am wrong with factually evidence of course but that tournament didn't invite Korea. so for all purposes Europe hasn't really had international success in the form of winning. Now i don't know why riot wouldn't just change the format because they easily can because NA clearly is a cut above the rest of those regions.

III BAKURYU III Apr 22, 20191 votes

"minor regions a shot at international success"

That's literally NA, bud. IDK if you've been paying attention for the past(forever) years but NA is a minor region that buffs itself up as a major, just cause.

Not exactly, 2017 TSM almost lost to GAM(3-2) in the play-in stage coming back from a 0-2 hole and winning the 5th game that was around an hour long to advance into the Group Draw part of MSI.

2018 Evos Gaming went 2-2 against Fnatic and Team Liquid

These "minor" regions can take games/series off "major" regions' teams.

"Europe hasn't really had international success in the form of winning"

EU hasn't "WON" sure but let's not act like coming in 2nd(Twice 2015, 2017) and 3rd(2018) at MSI and making it out of Groups at Worlds almost every year(2014 the exception) Since 2015 3rd-4th Place Finish( 5x Times) 5th-8th Place Finish(2x Times) 9th-12th Place Finish( 2x Times) So yeah, EU hasn't really "WON" but they do "WIN" if that makes any sense.

" NA clearly is a cut above the rest of those regions" You do realize NA actually blows against those regions, right? lol
I mean Team Liquid last year lost to Team Evos in their first game at MSI! CLG lost to SuperMassive at 2016, CLG lost to Pain Gaming at Worlds 2016, CLG lost to Albus Nox Luna at Worlds 2016, Gigabyte Marines shat on TSM at 2017 MSI.

People laugh/meme Alliance losing to Kabuum E-sports back in 2014 and here it is, NA has been bent over by these lesser International teams every tournament.

ModKnightsKemplarApr 22, 20191 votes

Yeah, but it's about numbers.

They had to have enough people in the play-ins to make them even, so NA got included. We consistently underperform compare to the other major regions. I mean, imagine it the other way; they're gonna send LEC to even it out, when they did better than us at Worlds just a few months ago? That wouldn't make any sense.

Like I hear you, it's weird to see us there, but I don't think it's unfair. NA squads just need to step it up and prove we can hang with the big dogs. We need a world championship.

III BAKURYU III Apr 21, 20191 votes

It's 50/50 for me about NA playing in the (Play-in Stage) mainly because it gives NA the opportunity to learn, develop and able to get on a hot streak towards the main MSI Stage, if they do in fact make it to such. We've seen what late surges from teams does to their performances in the regular season and not just from League but from other sports also.
2007 the NYG could have rested their roster and not care about the final 2 games of the regular season as they were already locked as a Wild-Card team and two wins/loses wouldn't matter or affect their #seed but instead of resting, they played hard and actually became a better team for such. 2010 The Green Bay Packers were a team dead in the water in the regular season but they kept on fighting and got on a hot-streak and won the Superbowl. 2019 We're seeing from the NHL what late surges can do(Blue Jackets/Avalanche/Blues)

Point is this, Team Liquid belongs in the Play-In stage because they're called "Team Liquid" and not "Cloud 9" they need to prove not to us that they're a great team but to themselves.

ßårbarïcChámpîõnApr 21, 20191 votes

so your point is "Team Liquid belongs in the Play-In stage because they're called "Team Liquid" and not "Cloud 9" they need to prove not to us that they're a great team but to themselves."

so by your concrete theory skt should be put in the play in because they are not KT?

III BAKURYU III Apr 22, 20191 votes

No, sorry I didn't really explained what I meant very well.

NA/Team Liquid etc - Is a mediocre region, the only NA team that has done anything for NA is Cloud 9 and everyone throws up their hands and think NA isn't a mediocre region because once a year, 1 NA team does decent in Groups at Worlds and other than that 1 team the region itself gets bent over for the most part on the International level.

If North America actually belongs on such stage, SHOW THE F$CK UP!

Master KorrokApr 22, 20191 votes

While I do think as per the current rules and set up of the tournaments that TL are where they should be, I strongly disagree that only one team shows up and performs decent. Most of the NA teams end up with good score lines with a few exceptions here and there, usually either faltering in tie breakers or tying the one team that holds head to head on them. I would say they all perform pretty decent, I personally don't hold it against those teams for each scenario and while their destiny was in their own hands and they dropped it, I wouldn't say that they get bent over.

III BAKURYU III Apr 22, 20191 votes

Alright, a bit hard on NA but let's be 100% honest and fair about NA THIS year.... If NA doesn't show up at MSI(at least #top 4) NA should only get 2 spots for Worlds and give up the other spot to say, EU instead.
Only one team shows up for NA and they're constantly the #3 seed(harder group?) and that's been Cloud 9. 4 out of 5 years made it out of groups and out of 15 NA teams, 5 out of the 15 made it out of groups since 2014 and like I said, 4 out of those 5 was from Cloud 9.

Yeah, NA tends to go around 3-3 to end worlds after the first week of say Worlds where 2/3 teams from NA are 2-1 or 3-0 and they fumble the second week as usual. The other regions tend to also have more teams constantly in the Bracket-Stage of Worlds, where NA tends to either have 1(C9) or none(or get placed in the Bracket-Stage already(Season 1, 2 and 3)

Bottom line is Team Liquid(NA) needs to show up! plain and simple! 9 Years of 'Copy-paste' Korea's meta and paying $ for talent has gone on long enough to only be mediocre at this point.

Master KorrokMay 1, 20191 votes

That's absolutely ridiculous lol, and going 3-3 in some of the groups they are in is clearly MUCH better than what 99% of wildcard region has been able to accomplish with their BEST teams minus the one year Gigabyte marines made it out. If any region needs to give up a spot its Taiwan, but I would prefer them to just add more spots for emerging regions instead of taking spots away from regions. Seriously taking spots away when league has done nothing but grow is one of the stupidest ideas I think I have seen yet.

cimbatronMay 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Itz D Exorcist ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=A1Ihc8iL,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-22T22:07:39.127+0000)

Alright, a bit hard on NA but let's be 100% honest and fair about NA THIS year.... If NA doesn't show up at MSI(at least #top 4) NA should only get 2 spots for Worlds and give up the other spot to say, EU instead.

This is so true, NA have far underperformed for an extended period of time. If dominance had real reward/consequences than LCK would have 4 representatives the last 4 years...

Master KorrokApr 22, 20191 votes

I feel like they should just add more teams too the tournament, I like the idea behind playins trying to help emerging regions but so far all it's done is force them to play the lottery to see who is going to have to play a major region... There have been close series here and there but for the most part I don't even enjoy watching because it feels kind of wrong. Before it was the strongest of the emerging regions would make it, now it's whichever emerging region doesn't have to play NA or LMS.

ßårbarïcChámpîõnApr 23, 20191 votes

yes thank you think is exactly one of the points i was trying to make if NA wasn't in play in it would be more enjoyable and better for the more emerging regions and while i think the lms has been successful i still think they should be in play in

ChompyWulfApr 24, 20191 votes

Let's squash some false suppositions.

First, franchising means nothing about quality of a region's talent in relation to global skill levels. It's purely an economic setup to share profits and offer economic stability. If anything, the necessity of NA to franchise shows the lack of profit for many teams and a struggle to remain afloat, which suggests talent is lesser and appeal to audiences is low.

Second, Afreeca Freecs were not defending world champs. They were not even at World's the year before, and clearly were not the best Korean team. Furthermore, C9 subsequently being equally swept the next round by an EU team doesn't help.

Third, Korea's only real hope at World's that year was KT Rolster, and for all intents and purposes their playoff match with IG was really the only great matchup of the tournament and in essence the real final.

Fourth, due to format, only three region champs are automatically past the play in. NA has never been a consistent top competitor on the level of Korea, EU, or China. They are top tier. NA and LMS are second tier, and the rest are 3rd tier.

It all makes sense and fits if you're not a hardcore and blind NA fanboy.