(unpopular opinion) Sneaky perfectly explains why NA can't compete

WinDoos·Nov 1, 2019·36 votes·14,771 views

As per usual NA didn't look to hot this year, even teams like Splyce (EUW third seed) went further than NA's best.

I'm going to speculate why NA keeps under-performing every year by looking at C9 Sneaky. This is not to point finger at him, the issues with Sneaky are similar to the issues that applies to most NA pro players.

1) Work ethics are super low

After loosing in worlds Sneaky took a vacation in Korea.

Sneaky also went traveling in the middle of the LCS season to take new photos of himself that he could later post at twitter and such. Mostly for "meme points" I suspect.

We could also track sneaky during his time at EUW and he did not play a lot of solo Q. He never reached a "top rank" and korean/chinese pros that arrived later surpassed him in both games played and rank sort of quickly. 10 hours solo Q is nothing, the Koreans/chinese pros were online for so many more hours 16-20+ hours days daily are common and they scrimmed too. The dedication to the game also assured they stay in the tournament while Sneaky and his team went packing.

2) NA pro's suck because Riot is treating them too well

After another year of failure Riot is again pointing the finger at themselves asking: "What can we do to help NA so they don't suck?"

We hear ideas like low-ping servers, more tournaments, more scouting to find new talents and what not. But I think the main issue here is the pro's themselves.

NA pro's think they can relax, travel, stream etc for 10-11 months of the year and then when it's time for worlds "get serious" and bootcamp for 3 weeks and catch up to everyone else.

It just don't work that way, hard work triumphs everything and other servers are putting in hard work. You are never winning or even getting close to winning worlds unless you have a team of players that are willing to put in more time than a normal 9to5. If NA want's to compete and be among the best they need to push it's players to practice as hard as Korean and be willing to spend at least 14-16 hours days most of the days perfecting various aspects of their game, you can count in time spent at the gym as practice.

3) The lack of competition is enabling low work ethics

Take a player like Bjergsen, he know there is basically nobody in NA that can take his spot. He don't have to work hard in NA to stay on a team, in EUW or Korea he would have been replaced by now after the lack of success against C tier teams, but he still stomps or do OK against most NA mid-laners.

Take sneaky, the guy suffer from low APM. Yet he is the best option C9 have (when you consider fame a plus). He looks "okay-ish" in LCS but he lose lane every time when he faces a competent LPL/LCK/LEC team. Yet I'm 100% sure he will have a team in NA next year as well, and he won't be preforming any better, Sneaky just like most NA pros don't need to be better than he currently are to stay in a top team in NA.

4) NA don't hire to win

Overall you can just check the roaster of most NA teams and know you won't win, you know it, everyone knows it. But perhaps "winning" isn't even the goal of NA teams, you don't employ say sneaky due to his "mad skills".

You hire him due to celebrity status. And you want the exposure he gives to your brand.

NA need to value "skill" over "celebrity status" if it are to compete and not be a meme at worlds. But I don't think this is changing, NA loves it's pros and NA will probably disappoint next year as well due to this and various other factors.

65 Comments

GaliöNov 1, 201912 votes

You lost me at number 3.

Bjergsen is super overrated. He almost AFK farms Midlane all game. Almost never wants to do anything prior to the 15-20 minute point.

Everyone in NA pro play fundamentally plays the game poorly and other than this year the were very reluctant to play anything other than 'standard'.

Which brings me to the point that NA players are too complacent and dont have an actual good practice environment.

Like if you wanted to make a 'super team' in NA

Youd have

Top: Licorice Jungle: ?!?!? Mid: Bjerg/Jensen Bot: Doublelift Sup: Corejj?!?

And even that team could have a hard time getting our of groups.

Also why does NA have no good jungle talent in pro play?

Both midlaners are ok (not amazing compared to rest of the world)

Also NA players/analysts/coaches have toxic or low opinions of meta shifts and drafts which hurts them up until something like MSI and even then 'no one tries' there.

I think a good step would be a better tournament realm. Increased scrims AND new professional scrim teams.

Those teams would consistent of new players and teams that are paid by other team to play against in blocks.. then you can also develop those players and shift them into academy or mainstage team if they show promise. The purpose of those teams are for scrimming/development and not for stage play.

SaezioNov 1, 20193 votes

Impact over licorice easily.

For jungler, I guess svenskeren was their summer mvp so, have him. Maybe svenskerren would look good in a team that doesn't include the types of Sneaky.

GaliöNov 1, 20193 votes

I guess for sven. Maybe. I still dont think he is great.

Also I still much prefer licorice over impact.

In fact I dont even think impact is that great, imho.

RaiyzaNov 1, 20191 votes

Bjergsen's biggest strength is teamfights. He roams when necessary but farming gold in mid lane is the most important thing for him.

HeeroTXNov 1, 20191 votes

I agree that he doesn't roam, but I don't think teamfights are his strength. I think Bjergsen made himself a great laner (farmer) and is a solid dueler, but plays like a KDA player and has too many times where the team gets screwed because he's too risk averse for certain situations.

Dr PoroNov 3, 20191 votes

Problem with jungle is that it's a team effort. If your team doesn't cover you and/or ward for you, you'll look bad compared to the teams where they do that stuff.

GaliöNov 3, 20191 votes

You're right. But its impossible to see who is better/good with the quality of games. Lol..

PercentagesNov 2, 20196 votes

In the west, this is a GAME, something to do for recreation and fun. not to grind 16+ hours in a day committed to it living in an apartment with a bunch of other dudes playing day in and day out.

ModJikkerNov 2, 20196 votes

14-16 hours days most of the days

That's not dedication, that's unhealthy. Like seriously, that is REALLY unhealthy and if anything, at least NA players are taking care of their health on the side.

Going on a vacation? Also healthy and mentally refreshing after some terrible losses. I don't fault any player for that.

DisembarkNov 2, 20194 votes

SKT goes on vacations. G2 take 2 days off a week - more than any other team in LEC. They actually work less to avoid burnout.

“Work ethic” argument is trash.

IncrediPhiLLNov 1, 20194 votes

Probably an unpopular opinion, but id rather watch Sneaky perform as a pro than watch NA be successful at Worlds.

SaezioNov 1, 201913 votes

So, you are a sneaky fanboy over everything else. Not an NA or C9 fan.

IncrediPhiLLNov 1, 20194 votes

I watch NALCS for only one reason, and that is the players and the personalities. It’s the same reason why G2 is the only EU team I watch. Their players have fun and have personalities.

If you’d rather watch 10 dudes click a computer mouse without any personality because they can click buttons extra good for 40 minutes, be my guest.

SaezioNov 1, 20198 votes

So, I guess you would rather have Jim Carrey as a starter for the NBA team you support... Because you wouldn't want to watch 10 dudes throw a ball without any personality...

BTW everyone has a personality. You obviously value some types of person more.

IncrediPhiLLNov 1, 20196 votes

Yes! 100%. Id actually watch basketball if Jim Carrey played for a team... to be fair... who wouldn’t?

SaezioNov 1, 20197 votes

I played myself.

Velzard of KozNov 1, 20192 votes

Not really playing yourself as much as you two have merely peacefully reached the point of "Agree to disagree".

SaezioNov 1, 20192 votes

I was referring to my use of Jim Carrey as an example. And I think everyone with a brain, like you did would reach the conclusion you reached :)

inuitmailmanNov 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yes! 100%. Id actually watch basketball if Jim Carrey played for a team... to be fair... who wouldn’t?

For a celebrity game sure. This would be neat a few times. But actual fans of the game would tire of it and want to see real skill very quickly. Sure there would be people tuning in to watch Carrey play basketball every night. But anyone who understands the game and how hard and how long you have to play to be anywhere near the top would see this merely as a funny joke once or twice

Darius StradaNov 1, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I watch NALCS for only one reason, and that is the players and the personalities. It’s the same reason why G2 is the only EU team I watch. Their players have fun and have personalities.

If you’d rather watch 10 dudes click a computer mouse without any personality because they can click buttons extra good for 40 minutes, be my guest.

This is so stupid in so many ways? Do want to watch a pro League of Legends game or a standup comedian?

SaezioNov 2, 20194 votes

Oh btw, another problem with NA is the OTP mentality. NA is the region with the most one tricks, and by far the most onetricks in challenger. That's something I don't understand at all. And it always seems like NA has the smallest champ pool. ALWAYS

kyoyaoaaaNov 1, 20193 votes

Maybe there's rarely a go-getter attitude because everyone around you has decided they no longer give a shit? Competitiveness comes from both parties caring, otherwise it's just a big floppy meme and it seems acting like an idiot is idolized. Being polite or just a quiet person is "fake" "boring" "weird"!!! The big names act like uncivilized shit stains, unruly children and they're popular because of it. We are social creatures, we want to fit in. What better way to do that than be a loud impolite idiot yourself?

The idontgiveafuck attitude is like the plague.

LightswornLanceNov 2, 20193 votes

I think this is it. For example have you seen FNC Nemesis? He has the quiet but also cocky personality and hes serious. He was one of the best mids at worlds, while being a 19 year old rookie. We need people like that in NA. I wanted to say "more people like that in NA" but I can't think of anyone who fits the bill.

JustDonnyyNov 1, 20192 votes

[deleted]

WinDoosNov 1, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I can tell you why NA never wins. They just aren't that good. Personally I don't think there's really much to it, they just don't play as well as the rest of the world, if you want to try and boil it down to why they don't play as well, be my guest, but personally, I don't think there's many 'reasons' why they're worst, they just are.

It's not all bad, I think NA has enough skilled players to compete internationally and combined with money they could assemble/train one probably two very strong teams. Take Licorice for instance he was looking good at worlds and stomped lanes more often than he lost it, he was preforming better or similarly to all the players he met internationally. At the same time, your not winning worlds with Sneaky "I lost lane this game again and did no damage". You need strong players everywhere these days and should decide if you want a celebrity team or a team that can compete.

NA also seems to be somewhat bad at nurturing talent and have them reach their potential. This isn't just true for their "local NA talent" but also for the imports. NA has been importing top pro players during all it's time and what always happen is these players falls off in a season or faster, this is a very NA thing. And not very natural. Faker, Rekkles and multiple others been active since forever and they don't suck in lane and are still going very strong.

Meanwhile you have Bjergersen, Froggen, Zven etc, they were looking good in EU, but after just some time in NA they became "low/mid tier" and you loose hope in them. The same happens to most of the imported Korean pro players.

If this happens to basically all the imports in history then you can probably assume that homegrown talent suffers as well when exposed to NA organisations. Something happens in NA that ruins players ability of reaching their true potential. But I think there is talent in NA (both mechanical and strategical). It's just not getting the right nurture, and organisations priority of celebrity over skills (like letting Sneaky still on the team after he clearly not proving himself in lane anymore) is also hurting the chances of assembling a good team.

RyanEAXNov 2, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It's not all bad, I think NA has enough skilled players to compete internationally and combined with money they could assemble/train one probably two very strong teams. Take Licorice for instance he was looking good at worlds and stomped lanes more often than he lost it, he was preforming better or similarly to all the players he met internationally. At the same time, your not winning worlds with Sneaky "I lost lane this game again and did no damage". You need strong players everywhere these days and should decide if you want a celebrity team or a team that can compete.

NA also seems to be somewhat bad at nurturing talent and have them reach their potential. This isn't just true for their "local NA talent" but also for the imports. NA has been importing top pro players during all it's time and what always happen is these players falls off in a season or faster, this is a very NA thing. And not very natural. Faker, Rekkles and multiple others been active since forever and they don't suck in lane and are still going very strong.

Meanwhile you have Bjergersen, Froggen, Zven etc, they were looking good in EU, but after just some time in NA they became "low/mid tier" and you loose hope in them. The same happens to most of the imported Korean pro players.

If this happens to basically all the imports in history then you can probably assume that homegrown talent suffers as well when exposed to NA organisations. Something happens in NA that ruins players ability of reaching their true potential. But I think there is talent in NA (both mechanical and strategical). It's just not getting the right nurture, and organisations priority of celebrity over skills (like letting Sneaky still on the team after he clearly not proving himself in lane anymore) is also hurting the chances of assembling a good team.

NA is in a vicious cycle. General bad soloq players hardly thinks about how to get better, leading to them to troll in games, and then leading to good players's mentality affected as well and starts to int, causing good players to be dragged down to bad players' level. Therefore the games overall quality just drops hard on all ranks, which gives pro players an awful solo queue environment to practice, and pro players eventually got inted as well and all starts to have thoughts like "what's the point of practicing in a shitty server like this? It's not even half as effective as players who practice on KR servers." and starts giving up practicing outside their scrim time. I mean how are we supposed to have decent games when nearly 1/3 of the players are either inting or playing first time champions even in high elo games? I think I have heard doublelift complaining in his streams over a million times how a certain skill shot can always hit in NA but almost never in KR.

SaezioNov 2, 20191 votes

I think you are not taking into account how many people in NA chase after being a streamer/content creator rather than a pro player. Because of how much more money there is in that industry

NemeBroNov 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I can tell you why NA never wins. They just aren't that good. Personally I don't think there's really much to it, they just don't play as well as the rest of the world, if you want to try and boil it down to why they don't play as well, be my guest, but personally, I don't think there's many 'reasons' why they're worst, they just are.

Just so you know, you're not being downvoted because your opinion is unpopular, you're being downvoted because it is painfully obvious that you didn't read the OP where he fully acknowledges NA don't play as well and he was in fact speculating on why that is, so in your attempt at appearing coldly logical and wise you really just exposed yourself as anything but.

JustDonnyyNov 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Just so you know, you're not being downvoted because your opinion is unpopular, you're being downvoted because it is painfully obvious that you didn't read the OP where he fully acknowledges NA don't play as well and he was in fact speculating on why that is, so in your attempt at appearing coldly logical and wise you really just exposed yourself as anything but.

Oh I don't really care, I've paid no attention to this post after the night I wrote the comment. :')

III BAKURYU III Nov 1, 20192 votes

Look at TSM 2016 and NA in general at a point that NA was in my opinion the most competitive it ever was up to that point. 2017 was also competitive with Best of 3's and what not.

2016 TSM spent close to a year( 2016 Spring they had to fight just to make the Playoffs 9-9 and even then they had to face 3 Seed Cloud 9, 1 Seed Immortals and eventually the 2 Seed CLG). So even in Spring they more than likely practiced hard. That Summer TSM literally didn't stream and was again, at the time the best NA team "ever".......they went 3-3 and eliminated in the group stage......D-Lift the most veteran player at the time in North America was so exhausted he literally took a split off(his intention until he came back and joined TL for some games). NA players can't handle what the Asian teams put themselves through to win.

NA can't compete... after 10 years I think it's a telltale bet to say NA just doesn't have what it takes.

D-Lift was also still streaming 2 days before his Worlds match started and didn't really seem all that interested. So yes, it's an NA situation and not just a single player(Sneaky) but again, you can't fix something that doesn't want to be fixed. The NA players don't give a flying f$ck about winning Worlds! It's all about making quick $ and even foreign players know such and how desperate NA is( Arrow, Huni, Reignover, Impact, PowerofEvil, Crown) they didn't come over to help NA( NA honestly need them as much as it sucks) NA will never compete with the rest of the world GET OVER IT!

MakJuiceNov 1, 20192 votes

Unfortunately op you are just wrong on many areas, but are right mainly on sneaky being a big reason on why C9 failed miserably and has never been nothing more than a meme..

However to say that they don’t take it seriously enough throughout the entire year only pertains to a few and not the many in my opinion.

What I see the bigger problem being is NA never adjusting well at the end of the year like the other regions... North America does a lot better at MSI than worlds on a yearly basis. That is what you should be dissecting, is those 5months. Not the entire year process.

In my opinion the biggest problem is how we decided we were going to buy our talent over seas rather than spend years grooming our talent like Europe did and Korea China does.... look at our best mid Laners in NA, they both came from Europe. Team liquid has a Europe mid lamer, a Korean top laner, and a Korean support. I like TL and I do think that team can have and find great success. However for the rest of the region teams like liquid are the reason the region stays garbage. They see liquids success and want that instant success so they follow the same formula, which gives us what we seen at this worlds.

ChalzeNov 2, 20192 votes

He also becomes a trap from time to time. [sg-lulu]

Aatrox EichmannNov 2, 20191 votes

real shit

Dunk and DineNov 1, 20191 votes

NA pros dont have as many tournaments to play for in the regular season thats why they have more time to relax stream etc

SaezioNov 1, 20192 votes

They have the same amount of tournaments as EU. Unless you are not counting worlds, which is a fair point, you get like 3 weeks off if you crash at groups.

BibblesBopNov 2, 20191 votes

I agree. Let me share an anecdote.

I have a friend from Jamaica. He says the only way for people to get out of the extreme poverty is by getting a scholarship in basketball or baseball. He used to play basketball all day every day as a kid/teen. He told me if someone didn't get a scholarship from a US college, they were stuck in poverty for the rest of their life.

He got a D1 scholarship for basketball at some small college in the northern midwest. He was so poor he had no coat. A teammate bought him one. He graduated, stayed in the US, worked super hard and supported his family in Jamaica. This dude seriously busted his ass compared to 99% of his classmates. If he failed(his classes or his duty as a player), he would have had to go back to live in poverty that most people in NA can't even fathom.

Not only was this guy apparently a baller, but he was a damn good accountant, too.

TL:DR Its pretty obvious why Chinese/Koreans/Russians are way more motivated than NA players.

SaezioNov 2, 20191 votes

That's cool and all. But caps wunder bjergsen jensen rekkless and tons of the EU pros are from countries just as priviledged as US if not more.

Yordle XayahNov 2, 20191 votes

I mean, look a Bjergsen. The deal he signed with TSM just screams "I care about brand and money, not competing to be the best"

He can do whatever the hell he pleases, but people then shouldn't be surprised when these teams continue to fail year after year.

SaezioNov 2, 20191 votes

Where would he go in NA to "compete to be the best"? I don't think TL would be looking to replace Jensen with Bjergsen. And C9 are a team with 0 aspirations, it's extremely apparent that C9 ownership would take 2nd-3rd guaranteed spot rather than compete for 1st but have a chance to be 5th.

Also, maybe Bjergsen is loyal to tsm. And of course he would care about money, that's such bs to berate someone for caring about money, any adult that doesn't care about money is an idiot.

Yordle XayahNov 3, 20191 votes

Where would he go in NA to "compete to be the best"?

When did I say "Stay in North America"?? He and DL honestly have better chances at winning anything by joining Splyce, Origen or S04 than in their current teams, which is a sad thing to say, but it's not a lie.

Also, maybe Bjergsen is loyal to tsm.

How noble... did know Regie gave him part of the company? This is not a heroic anime when the good guys are righteous and "loyal" to whatver. This is clearly a business move, and like I said: he can do whatever he wants. This move has probably set him for the rest of his life, which is totally awesome and respectable. The one downside is that I don't think he has competition as his priority anymore, which doesn't bother me, but it does show a trend in NA. People often care more about their brand than competing. Honestly I think DL is the only who has kept a balance but that's a different discussion.

SaezioNov 3, 20191 votes

So you are saying he should leave the region where he is by far the best midlaner (not counting imports) and join EU where he would be in the 4th-6th best team in the league making 1/10th of the money he makes at TSM, an organisation that might as well be named Bjergsen and Co by now... TSM would lose way more if Bjergsen left than Bjergsen would lose by leaving tsm and joining 100T(the only logical move based on money and prestige)

Beacon AcademyNov 2, 20191 votes

The players not trying as hard as their foreign counterparts is a result of US culture in general.

NA will most likely never win. Plain and simple.

Even if NA imported a bunch of foreign hotshots, the culture would ruin them sooner or later.

Aatrox EichmannNov 2, 20191 votes

just call out corejj and impact already its too obvious

SaezioNov 2, 20191 votes

Jensen if anyone. Impact was NA's best performing player by a mile. And 4 of his games were vs theshy and nuguri

XJ99999999999999Nov 2, 20191 votes

its because xj9 hasnt been able to play for a team yet. if xj9 played in a team na would have won worlds years ago

MadraNov 3, 20191 votes

NA didn't win because of our junglers. Lira, Blaber, Xmithie, Svenskeren. That's not going to cut it. And NA junglers aren't going to get better because they are playing most of their professional games against junglers like Lira, Blaber, Xmithie and Svenskeren.

SnowbrandNov 3, 20191 votes

It's not because NA is bad, it's just that the competition is so strong. This year C9 lost to Griffin and G2, Clutch to SKT (!) and FNATIC and RNG. TL lost to IG (last years worlds winners) and DWG. Like those teams are extremely good. It's not a failure for NA to not get out of groups considering which teams they are playing against.

Hayaishi2Nov 4, 20191 votes

Yeah. As it happens to other sports NA is complacent.

You can see it in Soloq too. Everything is about memes and poggers nobody takes it seriously

BigBellBruteNov 10, 20191 votes

Well if NA hired people to win, instead of bitching about Sneaky's work ethic, you'd be bitching about how you could never get into Kim, Jung, Choi, Lee, and Pak as team Liquid.