Top Lane Terror: Smite/TP Strategy with Balls and Jack

Riot·Apr 20, 2015·3 votes·92,092 views

Foremost among the many surprising changes to the 5.6 meta is what's been happening in top lane. Urgot mid? We can roll with that. Lee Sin fallen out of favor in the jungle? Was going to happen eventually after so many nerfs. But for a player to drop Flash, the most basic and vital escape tool at a player's disposal, means something has radically changed. For it to be replaced by Smite, of all spells, makes the changes fundamental.

BURNING BRIGHT

The top laner's job is at the heart of it all. At the current pro level, they're meant to provide map control, whether by independent action as a split-pusher or Teleport their way into a fight and bail out their team. Recent item changes have turbocharged their capabilities. According to Jack "Jak" Gifford, toplaner for Oceania Pro League's Team Absolute, jungle changes in Patch 5.6 spilled over to his role. Most significant was "access to Cinderhulk, which is by far the best item in the game at the moment, and the ability to easily clear jungle camps." But, wait, aren't jungle camps supposed to go to junglers? "Having Smite on a top laner lets you counter-jungle or get extra farm from your [jungle] when your jungler is on the other side of the map," said Cloud 9's An "Balls" Le. "This lets you get more experience than normal, and Challenging Smite lets you beat almost anyone 1-vs-1." Gifford's assessment matches Le's, noting that the most important thing is the experience advantage, sometimes giving up to a two-level advantage over traditional Flash/Teleport top laners.

But gaining those advantages does require a specific champion pool. Said Gifford, "the two users of Smite/TP are champions that are either too mobile or too tanky to need Flash." Balls notes that there needs to be a balance between mobility and kill pressure: "if you don't have Flash on a non-mobile champ, you just get camped and die. Shyvana and Hecarim both have mobility, but they also have a lot of kill pressure after a certain point. I think champions with high mobility, fast waveclear and a lot of damage run this strategy best."

FIRE CONTROL

Currently, beating back the Smite/Teleport strategy relies a lot on personal mechanics. "I think if you are against a laner that can bully you in lane, or someone that knows how to punish you, then it will not be worth it to run the strat," said Balls. Gifford notes that the window of opportunity to do so is limited. "Obviously it's easier to gank, but big fed tanks are very strong later in the game, so the weakness is mostly just gankability. Getting a champion like Shyvana fed is far more important than having a Flash." Come late game, the beefiness and mobility of Smite top laners like Shyvana and Hecarim don't just make them difficult to work around in fights—they also splitpush extremely efficiently, thanks to the waveclear from Cinderhulk.

To Balls, this is worrisome for the health of solo queue play. "I think Smite should just stay in the jungle, because they can't punish you in solo queue, and two Smites is better than one for objectives," he said. "People can abuse this strat to always stay even or ahead in lane experience." He calls for Cinderhulk to be directly nerfed in whatever way appropriate to stave off its influence in his role. Gifford is more ambivalent, in face of the history of his role. "Any change for the stock standard laning phase is good," he asserts. For a long while, the top lane was considered an "island" because of its lack of interaction with the rest of the map or team, especially early on. But he agrees that the item has to be changed. "Smite/TP is only good because Cinderhulk is so amazingly broken, otherwise we would've seen it before. Cinderhulk is definitely in need of some nerfs, which will probably kill Smite/TP as a strategy, but that would be for the best. Strategic diversity is not good when it only exists from overpowered items."

173 Comments

Masini GGApr 22, 201512 votes

I really want to see a supp with smite... if you think about it, it's quite effective

ZafkielApr 22, 20154 votes

you take smite as thresh and when you hook smite the minion in front of the hook causing it to hit the target

hawkbanditApr 22, 20157 votes

I used to troll pick zilean bot lane with smite. When they were just out of range for placing a bomb I would bomb and then smite a minion to make it blow up immediately.

nikos0034Apr 26, 20151 votes

and this is good

nikos0034Apr 26, 20151 votes

good idea

NSmith1805Apr 22, 20153 votes

Except for the fact that Exhaust does everything smite does, but better.

Chilling smite is a weaker slow than exhaust, with no attack speed slow.

Challenging smite has less damage reduction that exhaust.

And exhaust lowers the armor and magic resist of the target. And exhaust doesn't cost 850 gold to be able to use it on champions.

Giving all that up just for a little extra dragon pressure? You very well might have better dragon pressure by exhausting the enemy team when they challenge.

Kelras2101Apr 22, 20156 votes

It's not just about the change to smite, it's access to cinderhulk, which is hilariously easy to build early game with solo lane gold and for champions that benefit from higher and higher health pools, it's literally godlike, the damage ramps up quickly and for normally tanky champions it provides early dueling power.

It's also about how hilariously strong the gromp buff is. A good top lane who can smite the gromp often enough has essentially a mini-thornmail, and even better, it screws the other jungler from clearing camps as quickly as they are missing the buff. Gromp, challenging smite, and cinderhulk make someone like a Shyvana or Sion an absolute terror.

You also have to take into account the bonus health multiplier that cinderhulk gives, particularly with champs like Sion who build lots of health and also stack more and more of it with his W passive, 6k health Sion's are easy to build in any game that lasts 30 minutes now, not to mention he gets a challenging smite that pretty much helps him 1v1 almost anyone except maybe a fed vayne.

Exhaust also has a much longer cooldown, 210 seconds, smite is 75 seconds.

Each individual thing in and of itself isn't that powerful, but when you add it all up, it becomes a pretty big advantage.

Until Riot either buffs sunfire or nerfs cinderhulk even further, it's going to be a thing.

LickytongueApr 23, 201526 votes

(Note: this post contains an unhealthy dose of Malphite. Reader discretion advised.)

I main support Malphite (and climbed to diamond doing that :D). I've played him - again: as a support - with smite. I dropped the gold item and went straight for the jungle item as my first item. I smited gromp or the big krug for the jungler to make their life easy as pie AND give me a buff to abuse in lane (though gromp is remarkably better in this respect), then added in a hit before following the ADC to lane. I went back at 450 gold (if feasible!) to pick up chilling smite. It adds an okay amount of damage, a movement speed steal (not just a slow) that stacks with the steal on your Q, and a ton of dragon pressure. Its cooldown is also a LOT lower than exhaust's cooldown. If you manage to wait for both smite charges, you can smite twice in fifteen seconds. This can change fights, especially if it allows you to catch up to valuable enemy targets (like the ADC). No ADC runs from a Malphite who stole your movement speed not once, but twice. We don't need exhaust, since we have our E for the attack speed slow.

Doing dragon - even with a non-premade jungler - is as easy as doubling up the damage on your smite and telling your jungler to smite at that point. Since you're (almost) always the lower level, you will never lack damage this way, but still outsmite the enemy. You're also no longer bound to the jungler to take objectives. While you'll likely be behind the enemy jungler in level, you can add in your ult to steal. You're also the one with the sightstone, so they won't outclear your wards. You'll see what they're doing, and you'll punish them for it. Last, but not least, you can easily help your ADC take a camp.

I won't likely upgrade the stalker's blade fully, since I'm better off building CDR and raw team stats or utility (The obvious Sightstone, Frozen Heart to hamper the enemy, Locket of the Iron Solari to give my team MR, Randuin's Omen to facilitate engages, etc, depending on the game). By the time the game is won (or lost, nobody wins all the time), you will probably still not have an enchantment on your item. And that's okay. You don't need that much gold to function. You just have to spend it wisely. Get the gold - and the dragon buffs - on your team.

tl;dr: Support Malphite with chilling smite is a(n Unstoppable) Force to be reckoned with. You don't even need Cinderhulk (though it's nice), because you're better than the Hulk. You're a boulder. An unstoppable boulder.

Wind CatApr 24, 20154 votes

First - you dont get gromp buff if you smite him after jungler. If you steal gromp buff from jungler - he is not going to thank you. Second - malph is melee and too mana hungry, you cant harass as much as othe supports. Third - if you take hunter muchete first - it's same as you go on lane with no items, it's just retarded tactics.

I watched your history game - you take exhaust when you play malph support. Why you bullshit honest people here?

TL;DR: Malph support with smite sucks, Kinaré is lying about getting to diamond like this.

LickytongueApr 24, 201517 votes

Dear Wind Cat,

Thanks for responding! Before I'll reply to your points, I'd like to point out that it takes you little effort to accuse someone of lying, and also very little to call someone's approach retarded, their words bullshit, and their story a lie.

Now, as for an actual point-by-point reply:

First: As far as I know, you do both get a gromp buff if both people smite the gromp. If I've always been mistaken about this, then thank you for teaching me something new! I'll test it, because I don't like operating on what may be incorrect information. If I turn out to be wrong on this point, I feel no shame in admitting it. However - even if I would deny the jungler their gromp buff, losing next to zero health to their first camp and allowing them to almost instantly go for their second camp (or save smite for that second camp), will likely offset most of what losing your gromp buff means to your jungle route. And if what you say is true, I'll just make a point of smiting AFTER our jungler smited as well as informing him to smite first.

Second: Malph is melee and he is mana hungry if you play him with a focus of harass. I find it peculiar that you assume that I do without first asking me. The way I play Malphite, I don't harass. In fact - I hardly cast spells in lane at all. I'm there, catching skillshots that would otherwise hit my carry (I have a shield, he doesn't), and counter-engaging when they engage on him. For that purpose, I level my E first. I'm not there to harass the enemy, I'm there to ensure my carry stays safe and gets to farm. When they hard-on engage on him, I'm there to mess up the enemy ADC's attack speed and deal a surprisingly high amount of damage in the process. I'm rarely out of mana, and I rarely cast my Q unless the lane is in a state of perpetual fighting. I make it through laning phase just fine as well. Most of the time, I do not even have to use my potions.

Third: I've done just that and won the lane. I do the aforementioned (written under 2.), and with my runes and masteries, I should be more than tanky enough to last through the first few levels. Two biscuits of total rejuvenation do a whole lot for you, as does your shield. If I think that the lane is going to be too tough to play with a hunter's machete in my pocket, I wouldn't pick smite. I'm not silly. That aside, it's not the equivalent of going to lane without items. It's an equivalent of going to lane with boots and potions: not everyone can do it, as it gives you no direct combat stats. But it certainly builds into something, and it will certainly serve a purpose.

Fourth: I am not bullshitting honest people. I'm an honest person myself, and I don't lie to myself either. I usually take exhaust when I play support Malphite. But I never said that I played every support Malphite game with smite. I said that "I have played him as a support with smite". I was stating that I have experience playing Malphite this way, and that all of my observations thus stemmed from this experience. The point I was making was also not that playing Malphite this way is the only way I'd play him, or even my absolute favorite. I was answering Bear Champion's inquiry: "I really want to see a supp with smite... if you think about it, it's quite effective". Most of the time, I certainly do take exhaust when I'm supporting! But this totally depends on the situation and the needs of my team as well as the composition of the enemy team.

TL;DR: Don't accuse someone of lying if you haven't given them the opportunity to address your doubts. It's a very bad form of arguing and quite frankly reminds me of populist politics. I did not state that I got to diamond spamming support Malphite with smite, I said that I got to diamond playing support Malphite, and that I have played support Malphite with smite. Last, but not least: Malph support with smite is awesome and really fun to play.

Sincerely,

Kinaré

LickytongueApr 24, 20157 votes

Note: I just tested it, and on the point of the buff, you're completely right! Only one person will get the buff. So on that note, take care NOT to smite it before the jungler, and things should be fine. The rest of what I said still applies. You don't need the gromp buff to perform in lane. (After all, I also mentioned smiting the krugs.)

Yung HamuelApr 28, 20152 votes

well said Kinaré i think im going to try out your tips on malph support. Even without smite it sounds awesome. i have gotten wrecked in lane by a malph support who did the exact same thing you said to do. He just sat there and took damage. thanks for the tips :D

JhnnyApr 23, 20151 votes

the Magus enchantment is so freaking gold efficient it's insane. 80 AP (same as a needless) without needing to save the 1600gp. Red smite could be just as effective replacing ignite as it could flash (imo)

superfighteroeApr 23, 20154 votes

The best items for a support early is ward item and full boots to be able to ward more efficiently not loosing too much experience by being away from lanes. The jungle item will not be very good for a support because vision will suffer immensly if you prioritize to get the jungle item buildt.

Robobr0Apr 23, 20151 votes

Trinkets have effectively made warding items a waste, if a bot lane trades off warding their bushes til lvl 9 they can get 6 wards for free the rest of the game. Also, the whole team can have 15 wards up the entire game if they upgrade as well.

Lord Nine TailsApr 24, 20156 votes

as a support/adc main, i feel that trinkets haven't exactly made sightstone pointless. sure, you get a free ward every now and then, but vision is power, and the more vision you have, the better you can save your adc and contest drag. one ward is just not enough for this. i'm only silver, so go ahead and cry noob, but i doubt its just me who feels that way.

owd456Apr 24, 20152 votes

I wonder where you are getting the 6 wards from because stealth wards cap at 3 and the upgraded trinket stores 2 and gives you another every 60 seconds and they last one minute meaning you could have 3 wards up at all times because they last 3 minutes. So where does the six come from?

By the way people upgrading trinket only costs 250 gold and more then triples your warding ability so its probably something everyone should get once they are lvl 9ish.

AngrusApr 26, 20151 votes

@owd456 - He's getting the 6 wards from 3 wards times 2 people in bottom lane.

@Robobr0 - The fact is that for efficient warding, everyone on the team SHOULD be upgrading their wards... but the sad fact is that most don't think about it or forget. Pre-level 9, buying a few regular wards could be necessary for safety, and the trinkets should handle it after that... but I still usually pick up a Sightstone as a support anyway, and that's because later in the game, the action can be very dynamic, and you want to set up vision for fights that are moving quickly and not necessarily in the same place for 2 minutes. The Sightstone allows for what would be redundant warding, but in actual fact is reacting to the pace of the game in a way that grants your team maybe not MORE vision, but still BETTER vision.

nikos0034Apr 26, 20151 votes

but you can take tank jungle item or if you play nidalee Q smite to minion and hit champion + jungle ap item with CD

Rinky DinkyApr 23, 20158 votes

"Why is cinderhulk OP exactly"

"Easy! It lets tanks be viable"

BIG B0SSApr 22, 20157 votes

How would it work on Garen? Garen item 3717 summoner 11 summoner 12

Vild AsenApr 26, 20151 votes

It works really well on Garen both Blue and Red smite works well on him. I also main Garen just for a longer period (since season 2 even before his rework) those smites works really well with hes abeleties and slow is really good on Garen so you can catch up to you enemy and you can also use it while you are Spinning2win and ofc a lot more like catching up with ult or lasthitting with smite :3. The Red smite is also really good but it is more like if you are against a bruiser that is really deffensive but is slow and doesn't have any mobility abilities like always Smite Q+R do not use your E because the smite might run out in the end.

noaelectromanApr 22, 20156 votes

Dear Riot, person with account NeverJokeToMe send me some kind of virus and with this he stole me my account and play with account one game and stole 1000influence points, i returned my account back with changing password. I am writing to inform you this is illegal this is my private account(the thing) and this is fairly illegal this is phishing please delete his account(NeverJokeToMe) or make him carry the blame. I returned my account(noaelectroman) but please do something with his account or him. Thank you, i hope this will help others with problems like this. Best wishes.

NanoCarpApr 22, 201530 votes

So, would love to point out a few flaws here. Cause this is just so wrong it's funny.

You can't "steal" influence points. The only way to lose them is to spend them.
To send a virus via a league game would take some serious hacking and digging of information such as IP addresses and emails.
If you regained access to your account by changing your password, than the only problem was that he had your last one. Assuming this is the case, then the situation is entirely your fault as whenever you open a new chat, it ALWAYS reads "Please remember that Riot employees will never ask for your password when assisting you."
Assuming it WAS somehow a virus, then it would in fact NOT be Phishing, which is the use of fake emails, or other messages, to get you to reveal personal information, or in this case passwords.
There's no way in heck that Riot would delete a player's account just based solely off of a player's accusation. There would need to be evidence connecting the account to the alleged activity (in this case phishing) and probably multiple reports.
If the guy is really doing all this, he wouldn't be deterred by a single account being deleted, and more severe actions like an IP Ban would be required.

Anyways. I'm amused by the amount of wrong here. Besides just the terrible grammar and spelling. Anyone find anything I missed?

Seeker of NoneApr 22, 20153 votes

After I played a ranked game where my fps was about 10 in the last quarter of the game (disconnecting and reconnecting didn't solve the problem), our jungle accused me of being at fault for our loss by getting a virus. He then told me not to go to a certain website which I have not visited on this computer, but on an old phone (iphone 3g, that had been reset to factory settings then updated, with the card that allows phone calls removed). He also said not to go to another website, which I do not use, but I assume my brother uses. The guy who said this sent me a friend request, told me this, then removed me. I know for a fact that he looked at website history. What he said directly referenced the material that I had seen. This took him no longer than 5 minutes. So, I disagree with you when you say, "2. This would take serious(?) hacking and digging of information such as IP addresses and emails." The way you say it implies that it would be difficult, and this guy just did it on a whim. I did plug my phone into the computer once, so I think it might have given me a virus. He even told me what kind of virus: mobogenie. He didn't believe me though when I said I didn't use this computer for any of the sites he listed. I was being honest.

DarkwolfdsApr 22, 20151 votes

it does happen the hack is done threw a website that when u click the link copies yout personal information so the owner of the page can get it. its happen to me to and he sends u a msg promising u free rp. and skins if u follow his link. i agree this person should be removed from our servers and the several other scammers like him i have several add them selves as friends and trying to do the same thing but one other piece advise to post a msg like this on forum on article either start your own article or send your complaint to customer support threw email. That way you don't have to deal with our dumb ass troll community that has no understanding how it feels to have your personal information stolen

Xeno DragoonApr 23, 20157 votes

Never click on any link someone sends through League chat unless its someone you actually know especially ones promising free RP or cheap RP

JingokuApr 23, 201510 votes

The idiocy of the people that actually believe they can get free RP when RP is a server side currency is just fucking hilarious to me.

JamdazeApr 23, 20153 votes

This guy should send it to Player Support, not here.

@noaelectroman Hey bud, hope you're reading this. Link to Player Support site:

https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us

Glad to help. :)

WinterApr 24, 20151 votes

This is NOT your private account. The account that you play on belongs to Riot Games as statet in the Terms of Use (this is always the same, in every single Online Game). And banning is actually enabled by this as they just exclude somebody from using their property, in this case their servers and their account. Again, you only have the priviledge of using somebody else's stuff.

NanoCarpJul 11, 20151 votes

I don't doubt the legitimacy of what you're saying, but he was claiming I think that he doesn't share the account with anyone. Although, that presents a whole different issue of the fact that letting someone else play on your account is a violation of Terms of Service and is in fact grounds for a ban on the first offense.

Yandere CarryApr 20, 20153 votes

people keep saying smite/tp is super broken when its effectiveness at the highest level has been pretty pisspoor

MacSquizzyApr 20, 20159 votes

Well, like Balls said, that's because the best way to counter it is to know your lane match-up really well and get strong ganks early so that you can punish them before they get a chance to start snowballing with Cinderhulk. At the highest level of play, you can bet everyone knows the match-ups, and of course they set up ganks better than anyone. The strat is really strong in solo-queue where the average level of skill is much lower and it's harder to set up an early camping situation to prevent snowballing.

BlackJawsApr 22, 20153 votes

so... just thinking about possibilities here... what about a overall damage nerf for the the damage on cinderhulk, except to monsters. damage like a sunfire cape, maybe less, to champs and higher to monsters for the tank clear time. great idea for an item, and i think that smite top is a bit too strong for solo-queue as well. Thanks!

NanoCarpApr 22, 20152 votes

The problem also lies in the bonus HP. +25% bonus HP is nothing to sneeze at. It makes other HP items so much more effective, especially when you can build things like Randuin's Omen and Spirit Visage, and then not need an additional item to bolster your HP stat.

Not to knock your idea at all though, it's a good place to start as far as nerfs go.

ape manApr 22, 20153 votes

Teemo + item 3250 item 3255 item 3260 item 3265 item 3270 item 3275 item 3280 = GOD

AnnieAndLeonaBotApr 22, 20156 votes

I would love to have a 7th item slot when playing as Teemo.

QQshaApr 23, 20153 votes

Still no credit to Flandre, the most epic of trolls, for bringing this crap into the game. But what else can I expect, when every damn article apart of power rankings is solely about LCS teams and players, as if the rest of the world doesn't exist.

A Dove Like YouApr 23, 20153 votes

Cinderhulk IS NOT the problem, if laners want to build jungle items that should be fine. The problem comes from how they are getting an AMAZING offensive/defensive spell with smite with the Skirmishers Sabre. It is such a broken thing in lane, it is like ignite and exhaust had a baby that is slightly worse at each parent's job but does them both at the same time FOR SIX SECONDS. If anything needs the nerf it is Skirmisher's, it needs its duration changed to 3/4 seconds so you can't have it up for an entire fight. I may not be a challenger player but i can tell you that if Skirmisher's gets a duration nerf it would honestly fix this problem of it being a necessity in pro play and messing with solo queue.

ShacoWithADracoApr 23, 20153 votes

The problem isn't Skirmishers Sabre. The problem is Cinderhulk,it is just way to OP in the jungle and makes Tank Jungler way to strong. Toplane people are just taking the only Smite that is usefull in Laneright now. If you would nerf Skirmishers they would just take a different Smite to get Cinderhulk.

A Dove Like YouApr 23, 20151 votes

Yes but they would be giving up something to build it, right now all they give up is mobility in exchange for a very good offensive and defensive spell that allows them to fight anyone and win... Laners should be able to build jungle items if they want and take smite if they want but they should have to give something up for it, Skirmishers makes it so you dont have to give anything up in fact you GAIN power by having skirmishers over flash.

Azules500Apr 23, 20152 votes

If skrimisher's really was the problem, we would have seen it on top a longgg time ago. Especially in patch 4.2, when it dealt true damage on hit and even pierced tryndamere's ult thru a bug.

HouseCat01Apr 25, 20151 votes

I haven't actually seen anyone take skirmishers, even in guides, but then again I'm not even lv 30 yet. :D

M1DN1GHTGuardianApr 23, 20153 votes

hate to be that guy.. but i was running smite/tp way before gifford.. probably anyone.. lol but yeah.. downvote this Volibear

syrukeanApr 22, 20152 votes

I just hope one comment relative to the article can be upvoted. This topic is interesting.

DeadbeefApr 22, 20152 votes

I think in the end Balls and Gifford are both wrong: Smite being used in top lane is totally fine with me because it opens up some strategic diversity for the lane, and I don't think that it will totally disappear after Cinderhulk is balanced. Being able to pick up golems and other camps faster once your jungler doesn't need them will still be helpful, and having two team smites will still make securing objectives easier--and might be a really good decision if the other team has Kalista, Cho, or Nunu.

TL;DR: Smite/TP top will eventually be seen as a viable niche or counterpick strategy after Cinderhulk and outlying champions are balanced.

CLG SkryptApr 23, 20152 votes

lol jungle Nunu with smite, and top Chogath with smite. GG quad baron / dragon smite

Vild AsenApr 26, 20151 votes

Zed mid smite Garen top smite someone jungle smite Taric/Blitzcrank smite and Lucian/Twitch with smite the ultimate smite team

CLG SkryptJul 15, 20151 votes

even better. Kalista with smite (ok i guess rend means u dont need smite), Zac bot (smite ofc) with kali because yolo (also their engage combo is pretty awesome), TahmKench jungle, Shen top (with smite ofc) and finally, Diana , Ezreal or Elise mid with runeglaive.