Team Liquid just going for players who has won or does good

GhostOfTsushima·Aug 30, 2017·2 votes·895 views

"Oh shiet Piglet Worlds Champion, lets get it" (Fail to live up to his expectation)

"Reignover beast ass jungler when he was still with Huni, aite lets get it" (Reignover is good, but Team Liquid fucking him up)

"Ahh shiet kick Dardoch out, goes from IMT to CLG, CLG got a good record with Dardoch...." (Oh shiet there you go again Team Liquid)

"Matt...." (....)

"Lourlo" (Hes good in lane, out of lane.....)

Put it all together this team has no synergy

Oh yeah I didn't mention mid cus they have no MID

Now they go after a Mid laner they think is second to Faker.........

Individual talent is good but having a full team that isn't going to have a good synergy or well working relationship F you up

Next Season, pretty sure Riot is going to partner with them

Like who tf want to see Team Liquid as a permanent Team in LCS??????

I can tell you all, Team Liquid is gonna get rekt Season 8 because they going back with the same roster AGAIN, except a different MID

One Player changes doesn't change the Team

Now let me tell you the ROSTER of TL Season 8

Lourlo

**Dardoch **

Mickey

Piglet

Matt

If I'm correct this will be there Academy Team

Top TBA

Reignover or Inori (Hopefully Reignover quit this team, I don't see it as a successful team for him)

GoldenGlue

ADC TBA

Support TBA

12 Comments

III BAKURYU III Aug 30, 20171 votes

TL has the $ and the talent but no real synergy as you pointed out. Honestly, TL on paper with the lineup of Lourlo/Reignover/Mikey/Piglet/Matt isn't bad actually, the thing that scares me is the mental state for the players at the moment. TL has sucked for a better part of 2 years, and even before that TL was still a joke/meme 4th place for example. The players could just be tired, not care anymore, and/or emotionless, in which all they want is to play League, get $ at the end of the day and that's about it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Zven and Mithy actually turn up depending on how well G2 does at Worlds and if Huni leaves SKT, as G2 will most likely be his first stop.

LEBLANKKK TIMEAug 30, 20171 votes

Well dam I guess you just have all the answers I guess that's why your team keeps winning worlds; not everyone can be a genius like you gosh.

Miror BAug 31, 20171 votes

See, I'm personally under the idea that one of two things will happen:

A) TL will drop entirely out of the LCS and potentially other esports (keeping their cs:go team as they have no reason to drop what is literally their "crown jewel"), forming steve's little "Agency" thingy where they represent players instead of fielding them

OR---

B) TL will field a "competitive" team next split featuring mostly rookies plus two mid to bad-level koreans (could very easily see them drop piglet in favor of a guy like kramer), with their current LCS team becoming their academy team.

As for what I think of TL, I'm going to go on a bit of a rant (hang on, things may get a bit bumpy). At the beginning of 2016, Liquid fielded a roster with the idea being that they'd "put their rookies at the forefront" and "show that scouting can be successful". The reason they did that was painfully obvious at the beginning of it (Dom retiring because of personal reasons, Quas/Loco clashing heavily, Xpecial knowing the team's best chances of making worlds were behind them) and didn't exactly feel like a smart move. 2016 spring went by, and for the most part the team was pretty average with DD and Fenix (a guy who I personally feel was overcriticized during his LCS tenure) carrying the majority of their games and their rotating roster looking pretty meh.

2016 Summer rolls around, and for the most part it again is a "clown fiesta" of sorts with their rookies having a massive fall from grace (Matt leading the LCS in total deaths and inheriting the "Kiwi-crown", Lourlo looking bottom-tier, DD looking decent before being benched for Quentin Tarrentino's doppelganger arcsecond). Looking like a clown car full of laxitive-ingesting goldfish, they went into the 2017 offseason apparently wanting to do the exact opposite of what they did in the last one. Out were the "problem child" of dardoch and their again, overcriticized Midlaner. In were Huni-less Reignover and their challenger-team's midlaner, essentially replacing two mid-tier players for half of a game-wide win condy and a guy many people expected to never see serious LCS time again.

2017 spring goes by, and the same stuff happens. Matt again leads the entire LCS in deaths (I repeat, Kiwi-crown!), multiple roster moves are made towards the end of the season, notably the almost LCS-ban-worth acquisition of DL (but hey, if Renegades and TDK aren't allowed to do it then it's ok to allow TL to do so) and benching of goldenglue so that Piglet can make SKT memes, and the team barely manages to survive, again.

2017 summer begins with TL doing what was apparently supposed to be a massive roster overhaul which included literal dozens of subs added and removed (at one time TL legitimately having 5 midlane subs in Piglet/Goldenglue/slooshi/arcsecond/Link) and steve doing a weird bin-laden-esque video in which he appeared to be trying to get people to either stay faithful to his team and/or acquire a sweet waterbed for a decent rate off him. Goldenglue did an excursion to korea on his own dime in which he practiced with zero LCK or challenger teams and instead focused strictly on soloqueue (because as we all know, solo-queue very easily shows who is the best at competitive LCS games, just ask NA's best Top and Mid duo Quas and Shiphtur), even doing a Thorin interview in which with somewhat teary and/or sleepy eyes said that 2017 summer would be his last "shot" and that he desperately wants to show all of his fans who stuck with him that he has something to offer in the LCS. Sure enough, TL saw his dedication and stuck by him for all of one WHOLE WEEK before benching him and replacing him with ~~asian-Johnny Bravo~~ Slooshi. Subs didn't stop there though, with former EULCS MVP reignover (I think, I know either him or huni got the honors with fnatic) being benched for Inori and eventually DD, Matt FINALLY being benched for god-kwon (not leading the LCS in deaths, in no small part because of flyquest breaking the historic mark), and looking through and through like a slightly more disorganized 2017 spring origen.

Now, if I'm a potential investor/esports fan looking at the past 2 years of LCS for TL, why? Why should I get involved with an organization that clearly has no real strategy or longterm goal going on? Why should I get invested in their players who realistically could not even be playing the entire split or be utilized properly? Just, why?

III BAKURYU III Aug 31, 20171 votes

What I got out of your post with my own thoughts

TL should have never let Fenix go, pretty much 2x the player that Keane is and yet, Keane is a starter on DIG. Sure Fenix may have caused some backstage issues, but who on TL didn't(Piglet/Quas/Dom/DD/Loco). Fenix was pretty much the 3rd best MID in NA at the time behind Bjergsen and Jensen, if not top 5 mid in the Western scene and once he left, so did TL's wins.

Matt is the new leader in deaths per game among supports, Kiwi was around 3.11 deaths per game, while Matt is at 3.12 deaths per game, sad considering 1. I like Matt and 2. when looking at TL's avg game time it's like 31 mins per game, while for Kiwi when he played his games were like 38-39 mins per game, hell Kiwi tied the most deaths in a split at the time during 2013 Summer when DIG played like hour long games and Matt is doing it in half the time.

Having the same roster that failed. Self explanatory honestly, GG going to Korea(Hyperbolic Time Chamber) and TL was none the wiser on not noticing that Goldenglue just isn't very good, add in NA got much stronger in the past 2 years was pretty much a disaster waiting to happen for not just GG but for also TL as a team. " because as we all know, solo-queue very easily shows who is the best at competitive LCS games" - Indeed, someone told me that GG hit like X rank in the Korean solo Q and I was like " SO" GG could have been carried past Gold to Challenger for all we know, I mean have you see Hotshot play in Silver in Korea, he got dumpstered. I'v never been a solo Q means how good you are in competitive play EVER!

While Piglet is still a top tier ADC, his run in NA has to be coming to an end, not because he hasn't really done much but also as you and I pointed out before, his value is diminishing as we speak, the longer the stays and fails in NA a weaker region compared to LCK/LPL, the worse it will be for Piglet in the long run. 6 total splits and 0 Finals appearances.
I'm not saying that Piglet wouldn't be able to get a spot on any team in the LCK/LPL/EU etc but keeping that spot after a split may be tricky. I didn't understand why TL had so many subs for jungle, mid and support but they didn't replace Piglet ONCE in like 2 years, even tho without him TL actually had a winning record by like +20 wins.

TL has always been bad with their dedication/benching players, I mean do you remember when Steve benched/banned Dardoch for like 2 weeks but the 2 weeks counted before the split even started? Dardoch was meant to be benched for 4 total series but once TL started off like 0-1/0-2 in their first series, they quickly said " Oh, DD's ban started before the split" LOL
Also well as the Goldenglue situation, he did only play for 1 series and got benched, WOW, what an investment and dedication that was, time well spent eh ?

Overall TL should take your advice with just focusing on their CS:go team/product cause this band-aid of theirs isn't healing the wound that they caused and inflicted on themselves for the past 7 years/ last 2 years really tho.

Miror BAug 31, 20171 votes

Here's the problem I see with the whole Fenix/Reignover offseason thing: you have a guy who at the time was proven to be the 4th-best mid in NA (bjerg being better, jensen being better, and I'd "kinda" argue that keane could be considered better) who you then ditch for a jungler who at the time had looked terrible on his IM solo excursion before having all of his success with a quote on quote "duo buddy", and a midlaner who in 2+ years of being in the LCS has from what I recall has not only never made playoffs but has also been relegated twice? Although the potential upside is there (if reignover and piglet carry the games you can maybe do better) it's hard to see exactly how they move up in the standings by doing this. It's one of those things where they added a massive element of risk without really needing to.

For me, the problem with the solo queue thing is that it only really rewards luck, some mechanical skill, and more importantly time you invest into it. Top-tier LCS players are rarely if ever going to be high in solo-queue rank due to having to invest more time in things such as playoffs/scrims (misfits was the only exception if I remember correctly, even though although all 5 of them were top 10 EUW challenger at some point the population there is like 1/800th that of NA), meaning that you're more likely to be high in solo queue if you're on a terrible team as barring promo tournament there are really no "obligations".

Not going to go into the whole DD benching thing, but the others I find quite weird. So yeah, the whole point of the constant benchings was apparently because they had a "competition" going on between multiple roles (mid to start, then support and jungle). Now I may not be the smartest, but what sort of unknown quantities were they trying to figure out? GG was in the LCS for 2+ years and looked pretty terrible, Slooshi was also in for 2+ years and again, looked pretty terrible (was on T8 with goldenglue), Matt's been in the LCS for 3 splits (not including summer) and in 2 of those lead the entire LCS in deaths. You kinda have to think that all of the players they have are known quantities to everyone by now.

Assuming they don't drop out of the LCS, you really gotta ask who would want to join their franchise without being ridiculously overpaid and/or having an inconsistent reputation/zero LCS experience. It isn't that I don't want to see more teams in the lcs, I just fail to see a realistic TL roster next split that doesn't consist of Lourlo-Solo/Inori/Mickey-GBM/Turtle/Kiwikid.

III BAKURYU III Aug 31, 20171 votes

Fenix was better than Keane in my opinion, carried more games, had a "Spot with Azir", carried a band of complainers of such, while Keane did so, with TL 2.0(Saint/Cop) but a more organized team, while TL was a s$it show. Now Fenix is meh, honestly. So Keane is much better overall now.

Reignover's champion pool was never designed to carry games, that was a huge problem. He always seemed to either A. Camp Huni, so any plays that he made was fulfilled by a fed a$$ top laner + himself with 1-2 kills / assists or B. Played a tank jungler in which it's even less damage for TL(Lourlo - Useless, Matt - Useless, GG- Useless, with some damage and Piglet being the only damage dealer).
If Reignover and Piglet could have been actual carries, maybe 3rd this split, but IDK. Pretty much another version of Dignitas but more around bot/jng than top/jng.

" You kinda have to think that all of the players they have are known quantities to everyone by now".

Reputation, proceeds you. My thoughts exactly

I see TL's LCS roster being "paper champions" if they do keep Reignover and Piglet and find some real backup players that can actually tank for them(lourlo cough) and a decent support that doesn't die 2-3 times in lane phase alone(Matt cough). but overall, I think TL will/should have a better challenger team for the future. TL has the resources and money, but not the right direction, the whole each team in LCS having a challenger team to grow talent for TL from the bottom up with prove to be effective in my opinion.

Miror BAug 31, 20171 votes

Yeah, for me if we're looking at overall careers then it's kinda a tough call (although I will say that at the time Keane was the "hotter commodity" due to everyone's fascination with laners who have deep champion pools even if they're shite on a lot of them, cough REN RF Legendary, cough). I just always sorta had a soft spot for Fenix, as although his champion pool was ridiculously shallow and got nerfed massively after 2015 worlds what his pool had was all the things you really want out of a midlaner (a few control mages, a few assassins, and an off-meta veigar pick which he could apparently do ridiculous things with). I'd say it's kinda hard to look at their skills now and make a fair argument of Keane being better than Fenix, as although Keane's "technically" had more success in the LCS let's not forget that he's had probably one of the easiest scenarios to shine in with ssumday taking bans that'd normally go his direction and their new jg/botlane being "hot shizz" right now.

I don't know if it's just me, but I just can't see reignover or piglet wanting to stay on TL after this split, especially after seeing what Huni was able to accomplish and seeing all the LCK rosters in need of jg's and botlaners now. If I had to take a guess, I'd say RO joins rox and Piglet joins the afreecafreecafreecs with Kramer making his long-awaited debut in NA, potentially on echo fox.

III BAKURYU III Sep 1, 20171 votes

What about Reignover possibly joining SSG ?

For Fenix and Keane, I actually got them confused when looking at their play and looking "somewhat" similar to me, I always thought of the Tekken characters Marshall Law and Wulong for some reason.

$ is the answer to your 3rd paragraph mainly for Piglet, for Reignover it's a toss-up mainly because I don't think he will or should be on TL's challenger team if they do up a roster for such, if anything Reignover starts, Inori on the challenger and DD leaves.

Kramer will most likely be on EF cause his farm for 40 mins/passive play fits with Froggen's, but I don't think the wins will come unless they get a better support(aggressive one at that) and possibly a new top but with Kramer and Looper the communication would at least be better for Looper to peel for Kramer.

Miror BSep 1, 20171 votes

Over ambition or mowgli, two guys who have looked a lot better than him in a harder region? Unlike the whole Huni thing in which he came off of 2 years of dominance, with RO/Piglet they're coming off of terrible ones on a bad team. You kinda have to think that bottom-tier LCK teams would be the ones aiming for them both, afreeca only really wanting to grab piglet should they not want to replace kramer (who I'm 100% sure will leave LCK and join an NA team) with someone else.

Also, you've kinda ignored the whole import slot thing again as in order to have kramer/looper on the same roster they'd have to drop froggen. Good luck getting echo fox to do that. Looper is a guy I do see replacing though, only because a) much like reignover a ton of his success came with a "duo buddy" (in this case mata, who from what I recall had the highest support+solo-laner proximity in LPL history with him) and he looks to be at the point in which NA talent could replace him and B) while their toplane has looked pretty meh their botlane rotation has looked waaaay worse for longer with Keith having the most gold of any western laner at one point in 2017 summer despite having the 3rd-lowest KDA, his nickname being "american vehicle" due to how inefficient he was with fuel.

III BAKURYU III Sep 1, 20171 votes

How much longer will Ambition actually play on SSG, Ambition is better than Reignover but Ambition is a married man( I think) as well as he might not even be the starter anymore, that's a close to inked fine print of close to being retired, and Ambition is really a follow up tank jungler for his team, fits Reignover's style to the tee.

Jesus, I keep forgetting about 2 import slots, I keep thinking it's 3. Honestly at this point of EF's time in the LCS, I don't think having Looper over Kramer or Kramer over Looper will matter, unless Froggen leaves. I'm sorry but Froggen's style isn't ever going to change, he may "try" and be really good in lane and kinda help his teammates, but for the most part his farm for 40 mins and play passive in lane(somewhat) but mainly be useless outside of lane. Is something that is hurting EF, currently Akaadian is the only offensive player on EF. Switch Looper and Kramer all EF will become is the new Team Liquid, if they keep the rest of the pieces but only ditch Looper

People thought Keith was going to be really good mainly because his first couple of games his stats were through the roof(thank G, I asked Riot for a "game time" to show how certain players' stats could be inflated) his first 7 games before joining Echo Fox, and becoming a starter on a team, he played in 7 games and 5 of those 7 were ( OT games// 40+mins) so it looked like Keith was a great player but realistically he was just Rajon Rondo-ing his stats to some degree. It looked like Keith was a great farmer as he was around 370+ which is great for a rookie, as well as adding up the assists which he was like 7 assists per game in his first couple of games.
43 OT games since Froggen joined/Echo Fox was created, won 18 of those 43 tho. 144 total games for EF and close to 1/3 are 40+ min games, in which Keith is actually pretty good and wins in, Froggen's style and even Kramer(JAG) and yet, it made no real difference in rankings/standings always coming in 8th, 1/2 meme Liquid. IF EF tries to play faster with Froggen, they will lose even more games is the point I'm trying to get at.

Miror BSep 1, 20171 votes

I can see ambition staying for one more year should they make it to worlds, as realistically he probably has the best job security of all LCK junglers right now (being pretty vital to the majority of their team comps). Even if he leaves, you kinda gotta ask yourself why they wouldn't just stick with Mowgli full time as he'd be way cheaper to maintain on the roster and I'm pretty sure is actually younger than him (allowing them to potentially "Klaj" him into their future team).

The froggen thing is kinda interesting, even though I'd argue the reason echo fox has seen little success is because they haven't actually used froggen properly and instead decided to stick him on a team with players that heavily clash with his playstyle. Should they keep him, I'd want to see them make a legitimate push for a hyper-aggressive jungler (potentially DD as echo fox is one of the few "landing spots" that'd make sense for both sides). Barring glimpses of akaadian, all of their current iterations have lacked a powerful early-game presence which would usually force them into a "stall-mode" before winning at 50mins or losing at 30. While having DD and froggen on the same team could backfire very easily, I could legitimately see this being a 4th place team should they run a very-obtainable solo/dd/froggen/kramer/kwon team and actually run comps that forced the players to be map-active. If echo fox tries to get froggen to play faster, there's a chance they could lose. If a hyper-agro jungler can help accelerate their early game and get them to that "lategame" they've desperately want though, then the fun begins.

III BAKURYU III Sep 1, 20171 votes

Froggen in the past had hyper-aggressive players on his team/jungle positions and for the most part it wasn't much success, barring winning 1 Eu Split. Akaadian is pretty aggressive but even if the jungle position gives EF/Froggen an early lead, the aggressiveness jungler/picks will fall off, something EF needs to work on(their late game).

I do agree EF needs active players early to "carry" Froggen's early game outside of lane. The team also needs a real shot-caller, not saying Froggen is horrible at being the leader of sorts but overall, I think an aggressive player should take that and just let Froggen farm, be dominant in lane etc.

Overall, EF is dealing with the same situation that TSM dealt with in 2015 Summer, long games, passive players and a MID(Bjergsen) that had to shot-call but for the most part didn't want to do so and really couldn't.

Like you said with " DD and froggen on the same team could backfire very easily" I think it would backfire, Look at CLG and DD; Stixxay and Dardoch were friends and the situation still fell flat with CLG, CLG were somewhat the 3rd best team and were up in the standings for 1st -2nd for multiple weeks and CLG still kicked him. Meaning even CLG who were winning and had a friendship between players, took personal minded and smarter mental players over winning in which could be so fickle 1 week to another.

We've seen what less talented junglers with cooler heads can do on the same team that the more talented jungler was previously on(IMT/DD). Any argument with Froggen and DD will result in DD getting his way, because Froggen just isn't a very stand up for himself player. I just see Froggen possibly getting bullied around + add in the fact that the EF org just isn't really developed yet, I just see it being messy.