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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 8

RiotMeddler··1 votes·42,613 views

Hi all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped.

If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Forbidden Idol

We're testing a nerf to Forbidden Idol, and items that build from it, where they give less Heal/Shield power. That's driven by the belief that too much of Enchanter power especially is coming from that stat, which was previously balanced at those numbers when Enchanters had less gold income and therefore weren't stacking the effect as much.

We feel pretty good about that nerf long term. A complicating factor though is that Enchanters aren't generally looking out of line at present. We're confident it's a good change overall, but not necessarily in the short term however. We're still discussing whether it's something we should ship now, and then adjust around it in following patches. Or whether we should hold it until we have other changes to go with it. Or until enchanter strength is high. Or at the least we until won't have as large a gap between patches as the upcoming holiday period, so if follow up is needed it's not as delayed.


Grasp of the Undying

We're also been testing out a possible change to Grasp of the Undying, where instead of giving bonus health permanently on hit it gives temporary, stacking, adaptive AP/AD. Primary goal of that testing has been to see whether we can better serve various fighters as well in the Resolve tree, without overly penalizing existing Grasp users. We've also got a secondary goal of seeing whether the permanent health gain on Grasp is ultimately a problematic mechanic, given how variable it can be game to game (e.g. amount you stack in a melee versus melee fight, versus amount you don't get to stack laning against a ranged opponent as melee).

If that revised version of Grasp doesn't work out we'll then most likely go back to existing Grasp and try testing a gradual stacking Adaptive AP/AD Resolve keystone at some point. Some of the interest there is that a ramping power/outlast your opponent approach potentially makes more sense being time based and in the tree about living longer (Resolve), compared to the previous infinite stacking of Press the Attack in the precision tree.


Resolve Style Bonus And for our third thing in testing discussion - the resolve tree style bonus. We're going to be testing that as a mixture of HP and the stat from your other tree, rather than all HP. For people going resolve primary that should give a bit more early offensive power and, sometimes crucially, last hitting ability. For people going resolve secondary that should help deliver a bit more baseline defense, which is generally what we're seeing be wanted from Resolve as a secondary pick. We're hoping that proves to be particularly helpful for fighters feeling they can't at present get the right split of offense and defense.

This is still a pretty experimental change, that's barely been into any tests and may not hit the PBE for a while (or ever, if it fails initial testing hard enough). Really interested to hear people's thoughts about the concept though. At least for now other trees stat bonuses won't be getting split, this is just a change being tested for Resolve at present.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

284 Comments

warpenguin55519 votes

If Sorcery is getting nerfed to target some of the marksmen using comet, then why it's AP getting nerfed too?

TomiMan76 votes

yeah curios about this too...IF AD abuse it nerf the AD part no need to nerf the AP any more.

XIII Vanitas3 votes

Or they could lower the AD scaling on Arcane Comet itself.

RiotMeddler6 votes

Not sure at this point if we'll necessarily hit Comet. Sorcery's looking strong in general though, relative to other trees, with amount of start of game AP/AD it offers being a large part of that, hence we're looking at bringing its path bonus down so it's only slightly higher than Domination's.

Infernape11 votes

I'm curious. I thought Yasuo had low MR growth precisely because of his frequent shield, which is the same reason that Kassadin has low MR growth (that and his magic damage reducing passive). So why is his MR growth being increased?

RiotMeddler10 votes

We've kept Yasuo's (and Kassadin's) MR low historically because they've had sufficient defenses in the rest of their kit. All else being equal we'd standardize them to other melee. We discussed that in 7.9, but concluded it wasn't appropriate, given their survivability and power level at that time. Right now by contrast Yasuo's not performing that well, particularly in mid lane. We'd like to buff him more in mid than top, both because of that weaker performance there and because we believe he's generally got better counterplay in mid, hence the MR buff which is expected to provide more power generally there than top.

Adalvar4 votes

If that's the case, will Kassadin see a MR buff since he's the only melee that doesn't have full MR per level?

RiotMeddler6 votes

{quoted}

If that's the case, will Kassadin see a MR buff since he's the only melee that doesn't have full MR per level?

If Kassadin ends up weak and giving him power against magic damage dealers is the correct way to buff him, sure, could certainly happen. Definitely wouldn't do so right now though, don't feel either or those are true.

Ahris10 votes

Ahri rework on W(change of function, adding identity)?

  • My idea is to be a triple cast skill shot(similar to Eve's Q but a skillshot) that shoots fox fire in the direction casted. Now can have more damage and the range will remain the same as now :)

Give back her lost AOE damage please?

  • She lost signifcant AOE damage when W and R was nerfed with no compensation.

Can charm stop dashes again?

  • Now I think it is fine to return this. Bringing more outplay potential to dashes in general.

Can her W and R range nerf get reverted?

  • Damage on it is just way too low to justify its range.

Thanks!!!

Bardcookie5 votes

But her winrate is positive? I don't think she'd need any sort of buff, unless you want Riot nerfing her again after awhile? [sg-lux-2]

Small Boobs Ahri7 votes

Winrate positive does not mean that the champion does not need change.

AirKingNeo2 votes

49% isn't positive. Having almost no game impact isn't fun.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

You should provide your source. I use lolalytics and it states that Ahri has above 50% winrate, so positive.

And if she really had no game impact, her winrate would be much much lower.

AirKingNeo1 votes

No? She has no game impact so her winrate floats at around 50%.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

If she truly had no game impact, that would mean that Ahri's team is fighting 4v5. And that case surely is never going to hover around 50% winrate.

But maybe you define "no game impact" in another way.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

Ahri players been op so long they don't even know what game balance is

King of Demons17 votes

{quoted}

Ahri rework on W(change of function, adding identity)?

  • My idea is to be a triple cast skill shot that shoots fox fire in the direction. Now can have more damage and the range will remain the same as now :)

Give back her lost AOE damage please?

  • She lost signifcant AOE damage when W and R was nerfed with no compensation.

Can charm stop dashes again?

  • Now I think it is fine to return this. Bringing more outplay potential to dashes in general.

Can her W and R range nerf get reverted?

  • Damage on it is just way too low to justify its range.

Thanks!!!

Stop this childish begging already. Ahri isn't weak.

HalcyonDweller5 votes

Hey now, they didn't beg rudely or make wild claims this time. All they did was propose some potential changes.

There is dismissing content because it is low quality, but I don't get the sense that that is the case anymore here. Y'all are just dismissing Ahris because they have been annoying in the past.

There's no need for us to be dicks to them.

EROTIC RAID BOSS5 votes

Asking for totally unnecessary low quality changes is annoying. Let's fix champions there's something wrong with. Ahris w is a little boring so what? so is jhins q but he's still a great cohesive champ.

Not only that but he's whining about well deserved nerfs and asking for compensation? Like honestly fuck off

HalcyonDweller4 votes

I'm as annoyed as the next person, but it's no excuse to treat them like garbage just for having different opinions from us.

I am Razgriz2 votes

Jhin's Q isn't remotely in the ballpark of boring as Ahri's W. Ahri's W is the most underwhelming ability in the game.

I don't care about the player (Ahris) or their suggestion. I'm just here to destroy this silly notion you have that Jhin Q is even remotely comparable to Ahri W.

BigWrig228 votes

Do you think the forbidden idol nerf on top of the sona nerf will be too much for sona?

LankPants4 votes

The nerf iteself was too much for Sona. Of course it is, they just don't care.

Omituinen8 votes

Hi Meddler,

The nerfs to support itemisation are concerning to me as a support main, and while it's good to get some context on them, it raises a big question for me: what do Riot think support itemisation should look like? Presently it feels like there's a bit of a "whack-a-mole" approach to balancing support items - Locket gets nerfed, then Redemption becomes strong. Redemption gets nerfed, then Ardent becomes strong. Ardent gets nerfed... And now heal/shield power in general looks to contribute too much to enchanter power, so it's planned to be nerfed, but with no proposed changes to make up that power elsewhere when enchanters aren't really overperforming at the moment.

Is there an overall plan for what support builds should look like, and how their power should be distributed? Having to change up my build once every few patches because my strongest items get nerfed one at a time is getting very frustrating to me as a support main, and I'm not even sure what I should be building any more - I shouldn't be rushing Locket, because that needs HP to back it up, but I shouldn't rush Redemption, because that needs heal/shield power, but I shouldn't rush Ardent, because that requires levels for the attack speed to really come online. It'd be nice to see some ideas for what Riot think builds should look like before another nerf hits without any immediate compensation, because at least then I'd know there was a plan for support itemisation in the near future.

Kynin7 votes

What is the balance team's view of support items? It feels like every Enchanter item is being pushed to a late game option. With the recent change to ardent it is terrible to rush. Athene's and Redemption both scale off of mana regen and feel bad early. Mikael's is situational and very few build it. Enchanters have felt extremely lack luster to me since ardent was nerfed so heavily and the nerf to Aery which I believe brought the strange uses in mid and top in line but was a direct nerf to support.

Moonboy656 votes

will you look into Duskblade nerfs?

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

Love the forbidden idol change, but I wouldn't oppose waiting until enchanters are stronger again.

Honestly, biggest counterargument I could immediately find would be Taric, who is pretty strong at present and benefitting at least a little bit from those enchanter stats.

As for the resolve stats, I've been wondering for awhile why the secondary trees didn't contribute some small stat boost from the beginning? It especially makes sense for resolve, but I find myself wishing that the secondary tree gave me a little boost on most champions. That would also further differentiate inspiration as the tree for people that wanted a big boost to just one stat line. It's a great change for resolve, but I'd love to hear if it was tested with others, too, and why that fell through?

RiotMeddler4 votes

For a long time in testing we did have stats split between the primary and secondary paths. The issue we ran into was people feeling very restricted in which tree they should take as a secondary by the stats they'd then end up with. We think this resolve split might work better because if you're going into Resolve as a secondary it's almost always because you explicitly want increased tankiness. Depending on how that tests we might reassess other pairings, see whether we overestimated the impact of stats previously or whether there's still an issue there.

420 grams4 votes

Any plans to nerf Ornn since every region and every elo think he's too strong?

Shaian4 votes

If you want to nerf enchanters, you should nerf Aftershock as well. The mastery is completely out of line in the supportmeta. It takes away any decisionmaking and skill, you just cant take bad trades and win all ins regardless.

Seviel Vorose4 votes

Why is Sorcery getting nerfed for AP too?

Winterkill4 votes

@Meddler,

What are you doing to address AP Itemization? There was a post in the Dev Corner about AP itemization that talked about removing a bunch of things to make AP mages no longer reliant on mana or changes to existing items. The problems with AP itemization is as follow:

  1. Bland itemization and hardly no options compared to AD, tanks and ADC. ADC and AD champions can abuse each others items and pen items. There are tanks that can abuse AD items and some AP items. What are you doing to AP champions? They all build the same thing and their itemization is not that extensive as other champions.

item 3165 = is a common item that is built first and on almost all ap champions. What are you doing to address this?

  1. Mages only have three magic pen options. One of the magic pen items has to meet a specific requirement to proc its passive. Meanwhile ADC and AD champions have multiple ways to proc healing reduction, shredding armor and more with very little effort. What are you doing to address this?

  2. Assassin and on hit mages need love. There itemization is weak and they really don't have as many items they need to really bring the class of champions to life. Meanwhile AD assassins have a plethora of items to choose from.

  3. AP champions only have 3 defensive options with AP attached to it. What are you doing to address the fact that we only have 3 items to protect ourselves?

  1. There is no point in buying the below items. They are not really worth buying anymore and really need improvements.

item 3089 item 3285


One Developer said you are only working on one item and will make changes to build paths of existing items. What is this going to address the fact that the above is what we have been suffering from for years now. You gave us a item that lunges us forward and shoots out icicles. What did these two items do to solve the current problems with AP itemization? Nothing and you don't seem to be getting it. What are you doing?

Jus de Castagne3 votes

I have few questions :

  • Don't you think that it could be a better idea to wait to nerf the Forbidden Idols items after a stabilization of the meta ?

  • What do you think about the rune Dark Harvest at this moment ? Could it be possible to make dropped soul last longger than now, for example to allow roamer support like Bard to use well the rune ?

Retocyn3 votes

Why Morgana's HP growth got nerfed? Is it a compensation for the reworked passive? Doesn't support Morgana get hurt by this because she doesn't get as much AP as in mid?

I feel like there's heavy balancing around base stats for the last several months. Any details on that?

RiotMeddler4 votes

Because we overbuffed Morgana across the board (not just mid, even if that was the strongest case) and wanted to bring her power back down. HP/level was chosen there to reduce her safety somewhat.

We have been making quite a few base stat adjustments recently. That's in large part due to the move from old runes/mastery to new runes, which has thrown stat baselines around a bit leaving us needing to do quite a bit of polish.

Vayatir3 votes

Sorry if not entirely related, but who is responsible for a champion's state of balance on release? Is that your team or the champion design team?

La Bello3 votes

Instead of just nerfing idol I'd much rather you GU Soraka and VGU Janna +Sona . They're really the only ones that abuse it imo as they are able to churn out a constant stream of heals and shields.

Rakan doesn't stack Forbidden Idol Items as he needs other items that make him tanky enough to survive iniations and his close range nature.

Nami has a 10-6 second gap between her heals which are pretty easy to take advantage of I feel.

Bard Healing is really kinda meh as it needs to "charge".

Taric wants to stack a load of armor NOT idol items.

so yeah. Just like Kleptomancy rune I think this is more of a champion abuse problem rather than the item itself being OP. We Shoulda listened to Morello back when we had the chance...

Solidair32 votes

Hey Meddler! Teemo has been pretty oppressive in top lane, is the reduction to his base AD all that he's getting, and if so, do you think it will truly be enough to get him in line?

ALSO: Ezreal still seems strong. Opinion?

RiotMeddler4 votes

We've been testing a reduction to Teemo's Health per level as well, thinking there being that base AD hit alone's probably not enough by itself. Having said that he's too strong, but not radically so, so don't want to hammer him too hard.

Ezreal does look a bit strong still. We've been talking about whether or not to nerf him in 7.24b or wait and see where he's at for 8.1. Last I heard the team had yet to come to a conclusion on that, in part since waiting for 8.1 lets us put that time into another champ instead and gives us a better understanding of what to hit/how hard.

Spideraxe2 votes

Hey Meddler wanted ask for your thoughts on several of your own champs

  1. Curious as to why Ziggs seems to be the favorite of all the you've designed
  2. Do you regret designing Lissandra's passive the way you did since it hasn't aged well
  3. What role would you say Elise is since she doesn't really behave like most other Divers
RiotMeddler4 votes

Ziggs will probably always hold a place in my heart simply because he was the first champ I got to do most of the design work on. A secondary benefit is that I still really enjoy his personality.

Yeah, Lissandra's passive doesn't deliver well enough. I'm pretty happy with the rest of the kit, the passive's a product of the much more limited design time per champ we had back then, with Lissandra's design time getting squeezed between late Elise changes and the Sejuani update work.

I think Elise is closest to a diver still, though there some assassin and pick mage elements in there too.

B0OM2 votes

Regarding Enchanters:

What has prevented you from creating a stat that amplifies an Enchanter's entire kit, rather than only their heals and shields? I.e. ally buffs, CC duration, etc. including heals and shields could be amplified by a single new stat. Individual champs and their ability ratios could be balanced around this stat.

Miku Hime sama3 votes

From my understanding, LoL is the only moba which doesn't have this implemented into their gameplay. I know for a fact Infinite Crisis had it, I believe I heard somebody say Smite has it & DotA probably has it too. Mind you, I don't really play mobas, so I'm hearing this 2nd-hand.

You're suggesting something that has been brought to Rito's attention dozens of times over the years. Essentially, this is what the patch 3.14 Support Class Update SHOULD HAVE looked like, but Rito in their misguidedness thought they good make AP "dual-purpose," increasing both utility AND damage. They thought by nerfing support's damage scalings, they could give them the best of both worlds. Be able to buy a Deathcap to simultaneously increase Pix' damage, Polymorph's duration and Help, Pix!' shield strength. That was one of the biggest mistakes in this game's history, which admittedly doesn't say much due to the massive number of biggest mistakes that are associated with LoL's name.

Velasan2 votes

On Grasp could it possibly be changed to work on large minions and monsters while still giving the HP, but at a reduced number? Say 3 hp per activation, but more chances to activate it.

Grasp has always been one of my favorite keystones and I'm interested in the direction it is being taken in.

As for "Enchanters" the heals/shields items do create a large part of their power, but they also lost a lot of power from lack of a healing keystone (Windspeakers is gone). So, nerfing all the healing and shielding items wouldn't hurt, but I doubt they will get out of line as they did in the last season.

Reign of Squid2 votes

What do you think about a Sona VGU ? I know her auras are iconic, but actually, her gameplay is pretty sad. She needs to spam to be usefull, and exept the ult (with big cd) she dont have any cc. She seems to be hard to balance (less than ryze, i confess). And her theme needs some fresh for old skins.

Blackspy481 votes

Sorry if someone asked it already but why is lethal tempo banned in urf? I know it would be extreamly broken but isnt nerfing it a bit for the gamemode only a more fun option?

RiotRiot Popc0rner4 votes

Runes were hot off the presses when we were working on Snow Battle ARURF -- we didn't really have enough time to adjust all the ones that didn't play nice with URF's rules. I totally agree that disabling some runes feels pretty bad; hopefully we'll be able to dream up a more balanced version of Lethal Tempo for next time.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddler5 votes

We'll likely add a moderate number more (around 4 per slot instead of 3 eventually maybe).

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