Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 14

RiotMeddler·Feb 14, 2018·1 votes·73,610 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Ahri

Wanted to follow up on a couple of champs that have been asked about a lot recently who we haven't talked about for a while. First up is Ahri. We'll be reassessing AP champs in general after the 8.4 item changes go out, our current thoughts assuming nothing major changes with her though are:

She's around the right spot in terms of power.
She's somewhat unsatisfying. Some of that's that her W isn't the most engaging spell. We think the bigger issue though is that her effect on the game is too flat relative to how she's performing. An ahead Ahri often struggles to convert even a significant lead into a large enough advantage for her team (an issue some assassins have as well). A behind Ahri is safe enough to still do fairly well and not screw things up too much for her team. Her highs should arguably be higher and her lows lower.
We're tentatively planning on looking at her somewhere in the 8.5-8.7 range. Beyond at least roughly power neutral and sharpening difference between good and poor performances we don't know what that's likely to look like yet. Things like reassessing the speed boost on Q would certainly be on the table, don't want to make any promises yet though.

Quinn

Second up, is Quinn. Our current thinking:

Quinn's got a pretty strong thematic starting point (Demacian ranger/scout with trained bird).
We've never delivered well on that, both from a thematic perspective or a gameplay perspective.
A consistent issue with Quinn, regardless of which patch you consider, has been her dependence on lane bullying melee and bursting squishies. She lacks late game (team fight especially) ability to contribute, with some of the gameplay problems that plague some assassins (hard to close out games/make team contributions) and some of the problems some marksmen exhibit (anti melee laning pattern in particular).
Player desire for her seems to be split between 'make her a more typical marksmen so she can bot lane' and 'keep her as a non bot laner'
Her original ult was very stat checky, giving extra power (most applicable in 1v1s or small fights) without giving her ways to survive in larger fights that aren't just 'kill quickly'. For some players at least also some thematic failure (why am I turning into a bird?)
Her current ult's generally pretty unsatisfying for many (all I get's out of combat movement?), also failing thematically for a lot of players too (my bird's just a taxi?)
My personal belief is that any significant work on Quinn needs to include making her a more functional team fighter and in exchange wean her somewhat off her laning pattern that leaves opponents she's good against without much ability to respond. Not necessarily shift her to being a standard marksman, or even a good team fighter, but less skewed than at present. That's likely a larger task, I'm doubtful we get a meaningful improvement from smaller scope work though.
We're certainly not opposed to doing some work on Quinn. Unlike Rengar or LeBlanc for example though we don't believe this is a case where the previous version was any better, so a reversion doesn't solve things. Not sure at present on likely timing of any work. Apologies for such an open ended 'it's needed, but don't know when', don't want to make even a vague implied promise that might not be delivered on here though. I'd imagine for players interested in Quinn that likely feels poor, especially given just talked above about looking at Ahri who's already in a better state. The size of work involved is much larger though, so I'm not confident making any predictions until we’ve both put aside time for such work and know what at least the rough direction looks like.

Action in Pro Play

One of the things we're putting some focus on right now, both for 8.4 and 8.5, is the lack of action in pro games. In regular games we've seen bloodiness stay high post pre-season, with game times a little shorter as well until we buffed early tower defenses. Pro by contrast has trended (some exceptions) towards pretty slow, safe games, with teams either having difficulty closing out or being hesitant about taking the risks needed to do so. Having some pro games like that's fine of course, when it's common though would argue it's a much less enjoyable experience as a spectator.

In 8.4 (some of these are late additions to the patch):

Likely removing Tracker's Knife from the jungle items. It's become increasingly dominant as a jungle choice in pro play specifically, with the extra vision making jungler position especially more predictable.
Increasing the power of Epic monster buffs so that you really want to contest them if possible. Baron buff at present only scales in power from 20-27 minutes, we'll be changing it to scale all the way up to around 50 minutes, making it much more meaningful later game. Also doing a few other tweaks to it at the same time (making Baron empowered cannon minions more meaningful damage wise, shifting to a more appropriate AD/AP ratio rather than favoring AD etc).
Elder Dragon isn't changing on the first spawn. Subsequent takes though will now get significantly empowered by previous Elder dragon kills. Taking two Elder Dragons in a row will offer substantial extra power for that extended objective control (also shortening the respawn timer a bit to make that a bit more feasible).
Delaying the time Stopwatch becomes available to use further, most likely to 8 minutes, from the current 6. That gives a window where champs generally have their ults but Stopwatches haven't come online yet. We think Stopwatch is likely getting blame for slow play in a lot of cases where there are other issues as well or instead. It's certainly contributing though still, even with recent changes, and it's the sort of effect that should be much less common to avoid warping games too much.

Some things for post 8.4:

Looking at early game sustain, and which sources may be out of line still making it hard to have damage stick (Relic Shield and Runes likely starting points)
Looking at Zombie Ward, and amount of vision it's adding
Looking at TP, and chilling effect it has on the game in many cases, both in pro and regular play. Things like how it makes it harder to fight and meaningfully win in top lane, increases risk of aggressive play in bot (don't so you don't get TP flanked), leads to periods of 'wait until TP is up before trying anything late game etc.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

402 Comments

Ars ArcánumFeb 14, 201822 votes

Yo Meddler, thanks for the insight on Quinn. I think you hit most of the points on the head and we know it's bound to require larger work to get right. However, we'd still like to play the champ to some degree of success so maybe some QoL changes could be suggested.

One that's been floating around is giving Quinn the ability to walk while channeling her ultimate. Having to root yourself is pretty crippling, and having that siege minion switch aggro to you to cancel it is the worst especially at level 6 where it eats about 1/3 of her mana.

Also her Skystrike bug that's been happening since October should be looked at eventually. The damage never goes off out of her ugly when you Vault.

RiotMeddlerFeb 14, 201817 votes

Hmm, let me check with some folks about being able to channel ult while moving. Can't make any promises, especially given her animations, but possible we might be able to do at least slowed movement while casting there.

How consistent is the Skystrike bug you mention? If there's a reliable way to reproduce it consistently could get that shifted up ahead of other bugs in the priority list.

MalrothDragoniaFeb 14, 20184 votes

I'm not a common quinn player, but at least on a thematic level, having her bird visible all of the time might make the parts of her kit that interact with it more apparent. She actually uses Valor quite a lot, but the longest they stay on screen is when it's being a taxi. I imagine that would be a lot of animation work, which might not pay off short-term, but if you're thinking of larger work it might be something to consider. Especially now that the other bird-companion champion doesn't have theirs anymore.

Rework QuinnFeb 14, 20189 votes

Honestly, as someone who played old Quinn and really misses Valor, I think her ultimate would feel much better if it was just Valor again, even if it functioned the same as it does right now.

No changes to the ability, just make it Valor again. You don't have to bring Valor's melee abilities back, you don't have to change the damage to what it used to be. But having Valor actually carry Quinn still feels incredibly derpy and clunky, even 2 years after the rework. Just have Quinn and Valor swap places when the ability's cast (or the channel's completed) and when you break the ult (by entering combat or whatever) just have Valor fly back up to the sky.

TernFeb 14, 20187 votes

Using any other ability than actually pressing R to cast Skystrike there is a good chance it just wont go off at all. Ive tested this multiple times, a couple of months ago I had a 100% reproduction rate when Vaulting out of ult and it wouldnt cast, however it seems to cast about 50% of the time now but this goes for all abilities(Using Q/E/AA to get out of ult). Just going into training mode and doing it on a dummy will show the bug very consistently. Not hard to reproduce at all.

RiotMeddlerFeb 14, 201816 votes

Update on the channel while moving - that requires building new cast animations, so it's not a quick or small task. Looking at how minion damage interacts with the ult on the other hand could give a lot of value still and is much quicker to do, will investigate possibilities there.

The Blue RajahFeb 14, 20189 votes

Thank you for looking into it, it’s appreciated. Honestly I think the largest problem with her ult is entirely thematic. Valor as a taxi just doesn’t make sense. He’s a hawk, and in all other appearances he’s normal sized yet suddenly he’s carrying Quinn? It doesn’t make sense, and it looks super goofy. I’m gonna echo another poster and say that if they maintained the exact same functionality, but used the old animation of Quinn and valor swapping out, (but still with solely a movespeed boost), that would be an incredibly satisfying change. Would that be relatively simple since the animations already exist?

RoigaarFeb 14, 20189 votes

Thank you for commenting on Quinn.

I have to point out, while I agree with the things you're saying regarding her current state, some of her historic problems and outlook, I don't think you touched enough on her current power level. I don't think Quinn's current problem is that she's underpowered per se, but she's certainly underperforming. Check the relation between playrates and winrates for the last few months: she used to have a stable, slightly below average playrate and a good winrate that befit her status as a niche champion. Regardless of the logic we use (I saw some objections to my previous take on the matter) I think it's undeniable that a champion that rapidly loses both winrate (3% overall in two months) and playrate (sub 1% now) with no direct changes is under duress. Quinn has always had to compete against champions similar to those in meta, across many different metas in fact, while having the same stable numbers she hasn't shown ever since the preseason, specifically since the lethality item nerfs.

I agree, Quinn players tend to be divided over what they want for Quinn, even though Repertoir was very explicit this version of Quinn was designed to be a solo laner, a facet that Volty wholeheartedly embraced, but I feel like that's a conversation to be had in the future once her rework looms. For now I think it'd be a disservice to simply say these things and not move to improve Quinn's current state, because she's not in immediate rework priority, which, you know better than I do, means that it'll be nearer to two years before you guys can address her.

Returning to my original point, I don't think Quinn is underpowered. I think we'd be insincere to say that she needs a return to former states because there's very good reasons why you guys moved to nerf what you did. But this is a perfect opportunity to move to improve Quinn's feel at the very least, and I do believe there is room given how she's performing to add at least a tad of power as long as it doesn't contribute to alienate melees.

We would really like for Repertoir to evaluate Quinn's state, for two reasons: one, he stated that he would procure that Quinn was always at least somewhat relevant. Two, a year ago said he knew that Quinn's kit has a few pain points he would like to address but Quinn's state at the time did not allow for him to do so on good conscience. I think Quinn can be said to be objectively under the relevance bar, and for the first time since the rework she exhibits room for work.

As for ideas for places you can add power without contributing to abusive patterns, I suggest:

First and foremost, fixing some of her bugs. Currently, there are situations in which Skystrike doesn't fire at all, or fires and deals no damage. A bug that was fixed previously has come back, too: if you cancel Harrier's auto, you can no longer proc the mark on that target.
Disallowing creep damage to cancel her ult channel. A 2 second self root is deterrent enough for quick escapes, and it ends up feeling awful to have a single creep auto cancel a nearly complete channel due to erratic creep behavior.
Easing on the slow inflicted by creep aggro when using her ultimate. Currently, Quinn is massively slowed if she takes creep damage during her ultimate. This mechanic often feels overbearing because she isn't merely slowed by a percentage, her movement speed is set to her base, negating any bonus her ult might have given. The change is extraordinarily jarring, there is no easing into it. We dread it so much we call creep autos during ult "minion glitterlances".
Improving W's active. This ability feels very lackluster compared to similar vision tools. The cooldown is way too high for a point blank ability, vision doesn't linger long enough to justify said cooldown and it feel like it's overall the place in Quinn's kit where the least power is allocated.
Make Skystrike deal additional damage to creeps or execute creeps at a certain threshold. One consequence of the nerf to Vault out of ult was that Skystrike lost its usefulness as a pushing mechanic because it deals negligible damage to creeps. I am not exaggerating when i say that Skystrike contributes far more to ruining your ability to CS when pushing than aiding it. It feels awful.
If you're amenable to bumping up Quinn's power levels, simply increasing W's passive uptime slightly would go a long way in bolstering healthy combat patterns. The buff duration often creates pain points where the sudden change in attack speed induces mistakes, and part of it is lost simply adjusting for the shift. R's mana costs early are also a huge pain point, which puts a heavy damper on what Quinn can hope to accomplish with it during the part of the game where she's supposed to be strong. It scales to cost 0, which trivializes her mana costs late. I think she would benefit a lot from a flat cost.

Summarizing, I commend you for addressing Quinn, but please don't allow her to stay in this state indefinitely. We beg of you.

Louis CyphreFeb 14, 201815 votes

If I don't get flayed by "real" Quinn mains for saying so, I actually really enjoy the feeling of being able to exert pressure on the entire map at levels 11 and up. How likely is that to stay? I understand that it may not be appropriate for level 6--especially for a combat-oriented fighter/marksman--but I feel like this is a great unique strength to zero in on that other ultimate-based roamers (TF, Panth, Taliyah) can't deliver.

Quinn can't instantly appear behind you or wall off a lane, but she can gather incremental vision information and build an advantage that way, always flitting in on your lone squishy or shoving in that lane you dared to ignore. The state of always being on the enemy's exposed flank is really powerful for Quinn's fantasy, I'd say--where Valor gives her the Ranger vibe, the out-of-combat move speed gives her the scout vibe.

Morning RavenFeb 14, 20186 votes

I haven't touched Quinn for a bit, but this style is part of why I love Quinn. Oh top wave is caving in? Don't worry, you guys keep pushing, I'll be back in a jiffy. Oh the jungler's ganking, here's the cavalry. It's a similar but different niche to Eve. Eve's stealth means she can be anywhere and you don't know it. Quinn can be anywhere, affect everything, and you don't know when.

FajerkFeb 14, 201813 votes

Any words on Marksman balance and their itemization in near future?

RiotMeddlerFeb 14, 201827 votes

I was planning to talk about marksmen play patterns this week since that was a fairly requested topic last week. Looking at how people have been talking about that though it sounds like there's expectation and desire for that to cover wider topics about the current state of marksmen and our plans for them, not just what goes into designing a marksmen kit. I'll put some broader thoughts on that together as a result, though won't be in time for this Friday's post at least (maybe next week, definitely week after if not).

PandaNator43Feb 14, 201812 votes

This is what I wanted and I didn't even realize it. Meddler, you and Riot are very good at your job.

FajerkFeb 14, 20185 votes

Yes that is very true. I do believe people are starting to feel marksman being "op" currently, or quite dominant as they seem to be able to get core items quite consistently as mid-game hits. Especially on hit builds feel really strong.

Then there was topic of "ADC has most gold but second cheapest build right after support", which seems wrong, is not exactly true to the state of the game but it is becoming sorta hot topic.

I suppose there is bunch of other stuff that could be talk about, but those seem to be the highlights.

FlashnFuseFeb 14, 201813 votes

Meddler, on behalf of all 10 Quinn mains, thank you for taking your time to speak about Quinn. You're right that she needs some larger scale work, something that makes her more satisfying to play without making her to much more dominant against melees than she already is.

She was a massive problem when lethality was too strong and her numbers were overtuned too high, then suffered the classic nerf the champ then the items issue.

However, I do think she needs a small buff to get her back into a pickable niche state and I'd like to propose a few below.

Give her the ability to move while channeling her ultimate, it's a LONG 2 second channel time and rooting yourself for Morgana's Q duration and losing 100 mana because one of the caster minions randomly aggro'd onto you is just infuriating.
Make building crit more engaging of a choice: right now her passive gets a flat cooldown from crit that doesn't add much to the character or encourage anything besides a hit and run style. Change the way it works so that when Quinn crits the cooldown is actively refunded (1 second vs minions, 2 seconds vs champions), which would make critting a more viscerally feel good experience for Quinn, and allow her to actually stick to a fight because a Quinn player would be encouraged to continue going for a dule and getting more harriers for their attack speed steroid.
To push on her scouting behind enemy lines theme, have her W vision move with her passively when she's ulting, give her some means to contribute to the vision game in a way that could be used non-selfishly
Let Q's nearsight scale with rank, from 1.5 - 2 seconds at max rank to both allow her to contribute to a team better, and to allow her more windows of opportunity to fight opponents
Have harrier give true sight on opponents, so Quinn can choose to not proc harrier if her team wants to chase somebody with stealth down, giving her a big role to play in the counter stealth scouting game.

As for as long term work goes, I proposed an Idea to change W into a skill that offers a lot more synergy with the rest of her kit, and a lot more skill expression as a whole.

I would love to open up more communication from a player to a company perspective to help out Quinn, because when the rework came around I did a lot of player side work advocating for my absolute favorite champ . (For the record, that's not one big link, every word is linked to a separate video I live streamed off PBE during the Quinn rework)

When her rework was first announced, I wrote a long ass post and a shorter post trying to lay out all my thoughts and feelings about champs. Which is something I tend to do a lot to try and drumb up some kind of discussion, for this game and others .

So how about it Meddler, can we get something small to help her out soon? Or is that not on the plate right now?

Valor BotFeb 14, 201813 votes

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts on Quinn, really appreciate you responding to our posts on Reddit and being transparent with us here about her issues.

One of my biggest concerns regarding Quinn’s future rework is that her split identity as a marksman will take priority over her assassin-like kit and playstyle. I know work on her is quite far off and it’s hard to gauge what direction you guys will take, so I’m not expecting any promises, but do you think there’s at least enough people who enjoy playing Quinn as an assassin that it could jusify the possibility of taking her in that direction (similar to how old Urgot was played mostly as a top laner, so he was reworked into a top lane juggernaut)?

Just to be clear, I’m not opposed to Quinn as a ranged marksman - but I’ve also grown really attached to her unique identity as a swift, flying close-quarters hunter. I suspect the two identities are probably impossible to reconcile due to balance issues, but I’ve always seen Quinn as more of a ranged assassin (less on the DPS side, more on the mobility and burst side) than a teamfight-centric marksman, regardless of her ability to solo lane. A version of Quinn that is just a pure marksman would probably not feel very much like Quinn to me.

GwenavereFeb 14, 20188 votes

This is the issue which concerns me as well. I have always seen Quinn as an assassin first and a marksman second, and I think this has been a defensible view of the champion in both her pre- and post-rework states. I would hate to see Quinn pushed in a direction that removed the assassin play style, it would probably be enough to make me drop the champion.

Quinn mains are, of course, split on this issue. Some people prefer the new utility ultimate, others prefer the old combat ultimate (although based on our recent survey it looks like this preference tends to track with when you started playing Quinn). People play her as an assassin, a fighter, and a marksman in all 3 lanes and the jungle. She's in this sense one of the most diverse champions in the game, but this obviously presents its own balance challenges (buffs to Quinn mid will push her over the top in top lane, etc). I'm not sure there's an easy answer here and I doubt that a rework could really preserve each of her current play styles; it would be a shame to fully lose either assassination or marksman potential, though. Both have been a part of her kit from the beginning.

Rework QuinnFeb 14, 20188 votes

I agree with both of these. I've always seen Quinn as an assassin or skirmisher as opposed to a traditional marksman. This has held true pre-rework and post-rework. That's also true to me even though the rework did remove Tag Team, which I personally viewed as a large part of her identity as an assassin.

I understand we're not likely to get Tag Team back, and while that's a bummer to me personally, I completely understand why. However, I would be concerned if it looked like Quinn was going to be pushed even more toward the role of a traditional marksman - that was essentially the goal of her rework, and I think it's fallen flat, presenting her with many issues as a result while not really addressing the issues she already had.

As a lover of the champion, I'm really excited to at least hear something. Some people think our community's posts on Reddit and here on the boards are just us yelling at a walls, but I don't think that's the case, even if we don't get a response on a lot of them.

Even though it's a long way off, I'm excited. And when it does come time for Quinn to enter the spotlight I have faith that you guys will give her the attention she deserves and make something great out of all the potential she has.

Troll PoolFeb 14, 20183 votes

Quinn is a pretty toxic champion to play against who's in a good spot right now in terms of strenght, despite the complaints. Bringing all this attention to your champion is gonna backfire hard if you ask me. A ranged adc assassin with crazy roaming.. yeah.. that rework is gonna be dissapointing for a lot of you lol.

Rework QuinnFeb 14, 20186 votes

You're right on one front - I agree that despite all the complaints (some even coming from me) Quinn is in fact in a decent spot. She's a bit weak - sure - but there have been statistically weaker champions in League that have been forgotten far longer than Quinn.

However:

A ranged adc assassin with crazy roaming.. yeah.. that rework is gonna be dissapointing for a lot of you lol.

Quinn's last rework was disappointing for me. Immensely disappointing, in fact. I have far less fun playing Quinn now than I did playing OG Quinn - to be honest, I mostly play her out of loyalty to the character.

The reason we're bringing attention to her is because we know she has a ton of potential. Riot tried something with the last rework - the mobility gimmick - and it hasn't really panned out. I'm confident that if they really take a good look at Quinn, they can make something amazing with her.

Zed K HahaFeb 14, 201811 votes

Hello Meddler.

When do you think/believe LeBlanc will be on PBE? PBE 8.5 cycle or?
And is there any information which abilities your going to revert on LB? Hope you will answer, would be much appreciated.

RiotMeddlerFeb 14, 20189 votes

Possibly 8.5, not certain yet. Wouldn't be shippping in 8.5 though even if she makes it onto the PBE then.

No details yet on what will/won't change. Stuff's just getting into implementation and testing now since Rengar's just finished.

Zed K HahaFeb 14, 20186 votes

So it's like with Rengar, where you put her on PBE(Maybe 8.5 cycle) and then your working on her for maybe 2 patches(1month) and releasing her in patch 8.6 as an example?

RiotMeddlerFeb 14, 20189 votes

Hopefully yeah. Not guaranteed to be those exact patches necessarily though.

Zed K HahaFeb 14, 20184 votes

Alright, sounds pretty good, that you dont just rush her work out and instead are trying to get the best out of her. And thank you for your time and responds, much appreciated.

DCYOUNG888Feb 14, 20183 votes

RiotAugust mentioned that the LeBlanc changes will be delayed until Riot finds something satisfying for her so won't likely be in PBE Patch 8.5.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeBlancMains/comments/7wp4xa/riot_august_we_have_a_general_idea_of_what_we/du2hant/?context=1

EDIT: Shoot just posted this a minute after Meddler answered.

Zed K HahaFeb 14, 20187 votes

Please try to atleast understand what he is writting... He is saying that it can be delayed and it can be canceled if they dont find a solution that makes LeBlanc more fun to play and fair to play against. Right now they have a general idea, that they will try out and if it feels good, then they will put it on PBE and work on her with our feedback too.

Wukong AirlinesFeb 14, 201811 votes

@Meddler, Why were Talon buffs reverted? Will he be getting any adjustment soon? I don't think Talon needs any "numbers" buffs, he just needs some QoL buffs, like make his W faster, apply slow on first hit, or increase Q range.

When will MonkeyKing be addressed? a lot of people have been asking questions but nobody is answering!

chipndip1Feb 14, 201810 votes

This is probably super off topic from what we're on, but since I'm FINALLY on one of these posts early, I wanna ask: Enchanter game play patterns are, honestly, usually very stat-checky and stale. You guys did work on Janna to make her less so, but Sona, Soraka, and Lulu still fall under that same general issue. A lot of you guys' attention seems to be on other types of champs and lanes, however. Given how there were murmurs of an "Enchanter update" before class updates got updated into a nearby dumpster, are you guys ever going to revisit Enchanters and their generally static game play?

AxeritoFeb 14, 20185 votes

And the worst thing is that Enchanters are more and more just item active holders than champions on their own. There is too much power shifted into items which makes Enchanter kits pretty weak by comparison in my opinion.

Akemi YukiFeb 14, 20185 votes

Miniupdates for Lulu and Soraka would be cool I think as a main support :) to give them more skill-expression in their kit, like Nami has. I would love to see updates that make them more rewarding to play and less frustating to be against them, like having less reliability and delays in their kits but more reward if you play them well. Sona on the other part I think she needs more work than the other 2 :\

RiotMeddlerFeb 14, 20189 votes

We'll likely look at enchanter items in particular at some point moderately soon. Things like amount of shield/heal scaling, how items contribute to enchanter power curves at present etc.

ArtemiaFeb 14, 201810 votes

Hi Meddler! I'm extremely glad that you are now commenting on Ahri's state.

I can definitely agree with most of what you are saying here, but I do need to say that W is a peculiar spell that really needs to be fixed from the bottom-up. Currently its AI is not friendly to deal with, especially if there are enemy minions around when you attempt to engage with R W. Often the bolts would just bounce to minions and that drastically decreases how satisfying W is (and mind you, it really isn't that satisfying in the first place).

The problem with W is that early on, the ability is completely useless. Without sufficient points in it, W's real purpose is only to stack up Ahri's passive. We can't simply choose to max E second and ignore W because otherwise we would be playing with 2 abilities instead of 3, and maxing E has little if any rewards besides a longer CC duration. The ability feels useless early on, but as skirmishes happen and I can chunk someone down just by using R and W, it feels oppressive at times because I am not giving my enemy enough counterplay. I know that Riot has dealt with it and nerfed the AP ratios, but Ahri not being able to do what she is supposed to do when she is fed is not a solution either.

Fundamentally, W needs to be completely reworked, and I see making it siimlar to Taliyah Q (without the AoE splash effect) one possible approach. If you want to fix Ahri's issues, you have to tackle with her W and give her a completely new ability.

For the time being, I think that increasing E's satisfaction when being maxed is a good way to start things off. I strongly recommend that her mana costs for E be decreased in the early game, scaling back to where it is right now as you max the ability. The cooldown early on should be dramatically increased in response, but give E a lower cooldown than 12 seconds when it is fully maxed. That gives a bit more late game strength to Ahri, making it less costly to use charm to make a pick early, but also keep the ability balanced.

Q movespeed should certainly be gone. Ahri should be weak without her ult and charm should be her only means of peeling for herself. That also allows you to redistribute her power budget from the Q movespeed to other abilities in the form of damage.

EnsorcellFeb 14, 20188 votes

also failing thematically for a lot of players too (my bird's just a taxi?)

Yeah, but at least Valor is active and out and about, unlike 1/2 of kindred. Valor, imho, is a sidekick, someone who needs less time in the spotlight. Wolf, however, is 1/2 of kindred's being, and should be displayed more. How we can do this, idk, but Wolf should be shown off more than what he currently is. Thoughts?

Valor BotFeb 14, 201818 votes

I completely support any changes to make Wolf a more active and visible part of Kindred, but I disagree he’s any more important than Valor is to Quinn. The champion was initially released as “Quinn and Valor” for heaven’s sake, and her old ultimate allowed the player to take control of him instead of Quinn. That has always suggested to me at least that Valor is essentially one half of the champion and not just a ‘sidekick’ who needs less time in the spotlight than Quinn.

EnsorcellFeb 14, 20185 votes

Yeah, for sure. I can see where you are coming from with that, and i forgot about quinn's past ult. In both cases, though, they need more physical interaction (they being Wolf and Valor) in game

GuardmanFeb 14, 20188 votes

Hi Meddler.

I've always loved Quinn's Ranger theme, I've just never been a big fan of their gameplay. It's never felt right.

A few things I would like to see:

Change the champion name from Quinn to Quinn & Valor. I know it was discussed before, but it always feel weird that it is only Quinn's name on the loading screen. Valor isn't a pet or tool. They are partners.
Get Valor more involved. Say what you will about their original ult, at least you were playing as Valor, instead of just being a taxi.
While they have ranger elements, I never feel like a ranger when playing them. I feel like I'm playing a bully. I would like to see them moved away from bully and double down on their ranger elements.
Also, since they are a ranger, instead of top or bot, I always imagined they should be a jungler able to quickly move around the map and scout enemy positions from afar.

ZodiacSheepFeb 14, 20188 votes

Quinn Quinn post Quinn

I may as well toss this out here I guess.

So, I'm a currently Diamond V jungle / top player and I generally play Quinn as my top laner when I play offrole. Would it be possible to get small or medium buffs on Quinn until larger work can be done? Frankly speaking she sucks, even though I'm having a fair amount of success on her it almost feels more like a function of luck (getting good teammates to carry me) than skill. The two or three buffs I think would be good but not overpowering would be:

1: Increasing her Q damage so that she can consistently 1 shot casters sometime after laning phase ends. Quinn can't push fast enough in the late game to be as much of a split push threat as she should probably be able to and it's because she doesn't deal quite enough damage to casters; this might be fixable with Minion Dematerializer but Quinn gets a lot of power from her secondary runes so dropping them feels bad. She only needs like 10-15 damage right now and it could be added to the base damage, scaling, or both to get it done. This is the MOST IMPORTANT buff I'm requesting; if I got this as a Quinn player I think that'd do miles to make her play better. You could also potentially just make her Q deal 10% more damage to minions or something so that it doesn't effect her damage vs. champions but that change feels slightly inelegant (I'd be fine with it, but it seems like you guys don't like putting in mechanics like that)

2: Make her W active slightly stronger, I'd say making the vision revealed from 2 seconds up to 5 seconds would be great. Quinn is really susceptible to getting camped and this would give her more powerful counterplay to that. Plus, her W just isn't very satisfying so making it a little stronger would help increase the satisfaction of the champion.

3: This is the change that's probably the most dangerous, so if I were working at Riot balance I'd probably just try out the first two and see if I could move Quinn to a better spot without implementing this, but Quinn's mana costs feel too high right now. She has a hard time bullying out the enemy laner since she runs out of mana too quickly and most champions in the meta have very low mana costs. Increasing her mana regen or base mana seems a bit dangerous, as does decreasing the cost of her Q, but maybe making her ult cost between 80 / 40 / 0 to 60 / 30 / 0 mana would help?

Anyways, I hoped the changes I slotted in were reasonable. I'm not a Quinn main but I've got 16 games in high plat / low diamond on Quinn with a 75% win rate which is a lot more than most people since she's such a rare champ, so I figured I'd type up potential changes that I've noticed would feel nice.

PandaNator43Feb 14, 20187 votes

Glad to hear you are working on Ahri. Her kits seems like it should be way more fun than it actually is. For all the cool tools she has, it often feels like the optimal way to play her it to just fish for taunts, which is not as exciting as all the dashing around and magic slinging.

Honey CocaineFeb 14, 20187 votes

4 things

When will Teemo be receiving the full rework? His kit thematically doesn't fit his theme
And Diana? I know they made a couple of changes last season, but I don't think any of those particularly helped her in the areas she lacked.
Fizz? Similar to Leblanc, W changes made him into a weird delay mage as opposed to an assassin. I know there's supposed to be counterplay, but this did a little too much to his kit.
I feel like you guys will inevitably delete Perfect Timing. It's honestly only a matter of time (pun intended).

EDAGASEFeb 14, 20187 votes

Fizz is braindead and so much dmg. idk why he would need any buff?

ChoC0IateFeb 15, 20187 votes

I WOULD LOVE FEEDBACK ON THIS:

Lately tanks and ADCs feel overpowered/too much game decisive. Games also feel quite boring and less skill based than they used to be.

The truth is tanks arent op, nor ADC's are. Damage dealers/assasins/mages are too weak. Past seasons I remember stacking up to 1100 AP on a full build mage, this season capping to hardly more than 700. Champions like Renekton, Wukong, Ahri, Syndra, Orianna, Rek Sai and many more have fallen out of the game due to being unable to burst down anything.

If damage dealers are buffed, then they will be able with playmaking burst down fed ADCs unlike now. They will also be able to deal with tanks a bit more to balance the game.

Also the more damage champions have in general, the more the game will be based on skills since mistakes will be punished hard. Currently as an adc I can let myself take CC, full combo from a dmg dealer and it doesn't do much due to supports peel/not enough dmg of the dmg dealers.

The more dmg champions have the more the game will depend on smart plays, dodging will be more important, positioning, less mistakes will be allowed to be made and this will separate the skilled players from the others. Unlike now it's about passive pressuring with champions like malzahar without doing any flashy plays or anything special at all.

I've lately heard a lot of streamers complain that the game isnt as much skill based as it used to be. Not enough damage on the champions that are supposed to have it is the reason why.

Gnart Even CloseFeb 14, 20186 votes

Can you give any context on the changes to Gnar? You mentioned the balance team was looking at nerfing his laning phase by hitting his Q and AA power. Right now, the only nerf is to his Q CD refund, but that is mostly targeted at his late game. Additionally, he received a buff to his E. I know the changes are probably already locked in, but I really don't think that was the right direction to take. I think the potential early AA range nerf and nerfing the early Q CD refund without touching the late game refund would make more sense. Also, why was the nerf to Frozen Mallet reverted? That would have been a good change to give more counterplay to the melee champions Gnar frequently fights in top lane.

RiotMeddlerFeb 14, 20189 votes

Gnar - hitting the Q to reduce his safe contributions, both later in laning phase and beyond. E buff to reward more aggressive uses of it over disengage.

Frozen Mallet - was a topic of a lot of debate internally, hence it getting pulled from the PBE earlier this week when we were considering doing larger work on it instead of just a ranged nerf. We will be nerfing it in 8.4 still (ranged slow dropping to 20%) and might or might not revisit it in general.

CarnicoreFeb 14, 201813 votes

Please please please go through with the Frozen Mallet nerf, that item is toxic as hell on ranged champions. Ashe is the least mobile ADC in the game for a reason. And Gnar with Frozen Mallet is so oppressive for melees that it's baffling to me that this wasn't nerfed sooner. He only needs to hit you once with Q or a basic attack and then there's no escaping from him, he kites you until he becomes mega or you die.

BisaknospFeb 14, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Her highs should arguably be higher and her lows lower.

YES thats what i've been thinking for so long

she is in an okay spot but she is so UNSATISFYING no matter how well i play in a game i just dont feel i have much impact that really sucks and i hope you will change her in some way in the future

Jenks3Feb 14, 20184 votes

@Meddler

With the Removal of Tracker's Knife, are you guys going to look at Lee Sin LeeSin at all? I know losing those two wards kills a lot of his early-mid game ward hop mobility. I'm not sure if he is in need of any changes because of this, I'm just curious because I know it's the smite item I take 100% of the time on Lee.