Boards›Dev Corner

Zac changes coming to PBE for 9.11

RiotRiot Maxw3ll·5/13/2019, 6:31:46 PM·1 votes·132,821 views

Hello friends! We’ve been following some excellent conversations regarding where Zac landed after his rework in 2017. After assessing players' feedback, we ultimately decided that we went too far in pulling damage out of him in our quest for a more CC-laden tank. We agree that part of Zac’s pattern of diving the back line and doing damage is core to who he is as a champion and unfortunately, Zac players felt that after diving in, he wasn't able to accomplish anything more than just knocking people around. With that in mind, we're reverting his reworked ultimate and W.

Full Changelist: Q - Stretching Strikes COOLDOWN :: 13-9 seconds >>> 15-9 seconds

W - Unstable Matter Now does 2% of a target's max health per 100 ability power as magic damage

**R - Let's Bounce ** REMOVING OLD ULTIMATE NEW ULTIMATE :: Zac bounces 4 times gaining 20-50% movement speed over the duration, but is unable to use Q or E and can't attack. The first bounce deals 140/210/280 (+40% AP) damage on a target, reduced by 50% for subsequent bounces on the same target. The first bounce on a given target knocks them back for 1 second, and all bounces on the same target slow by 20%

The ultimate is a straight revert to what it was before we changed Zac-- four AoEs, each 1 second after the last that do damage and knock up once per cast. The W is another revert, where we basically just added in the AP ratio we took out. Q is not being changed, but the cooldown is a little longer to pull more power out of Zac’s CC and into his damage. This should open up build paths for AP bruiser Zac again, although we expect full tank to still be the default build. These changes should be on PBE soon for testing/feedback, with a tentative plan to ship the final changelist in 9.11. We hope to generate some conversation on what y’alls opinions on this list are and go from there.

273 Comments

ShadowParker5/13/2019, 6:52:05 PM81 votes

So,

I know the new q is a painpoint for a lot of players because they could do top zac before. Personally I love the new q.

However. Would it be possible to have both like Pyke q? It could be hold q to do old q but tap it for new q or vice versa.

Anyways just wanted to know your thoughts

Krakett5/13/2019, 8:52:51 PM56 votes

Have you considered have both ults?

Press R to use old ult Hold R to use actual ult

or at least make this for his Q. A lot of people prefer old Q and a lot of people prefer new Q. Why don't add and press/hold mechanic to it?

Press Q to punch (Old Q) Hold Q to grab and kiss (Actual Q)

There are a lot of thing you could try, instead of monotony, try something new maybe.

Chembaron Yamada5/13/2019, 7:51:21 PM37 votes

I am really sad about this decision. Zac's new ultimate was extremely fun for me, I play a decent amount of tanks and I think that being able to kidnap the enemy team into my own is the most satisfying ultimate on any tank I play.

I wish I could prevent the revert to happen, I really do. This new ultimate represents Zac's thematic way better in my opinion. And I will god damn miss the spell icon, it looked really cool. But at least I had a great time playing him this way....

Weigraf285/13/2019, 10:38:10 PM34 votes

I have over a million mastery on Zac spread between my few accounts with 900,000 being on this account.

This change feels super lazy to me. Oh we uh....are doing a uhhhhh rework and just reverting changes from 2 years ago?

The ult now gives the player options, they have a super fed nasus or someone else I can choose to ult them over a wall out of the fight. Or jump into people near Baron and take them into the pit and agro Baron.

The old Zac worked as a sort of AP bruiser because of items in his build path that have since been changed and or no longer exist.

I took Zac all the way to the top of plat 1 before this current rework took place and it tanked my ranking before the buffs and other changes made their way into the game. He is still weak, his W is way under powered...it take 3-4 to kill the mini baby Krug's but 1 LeeSin E clears them all.

Taking away one of the few interesting ults in the game for a boring "knock back". Seems super lazy and boring. Why not leave the skill in the Zac players hands. If I make a clutch jump and land on the carry (assuming full charged jump) then I should be able to relocate them. And if I miss that jump I should be punished for it. Stop making it so it won't matter if you land your skills.

I would like to see his ult remaining the same and just do some tweaks on W to read the AP ratio if you want to let him fight more.

At the very least put in an option for R where you can elect the original ult or the new one but it can't be changed per game, much like Kayne has to pick a form. Let Zac pick which ult he gets but it can't be changed for the rest of the game. Add more compelling game play, not less.

Weigraf28 ~ Zac main

PowerOfDrainAge5/13/2019, 7:39:23 PM32 votes

What about the whooping 25 dmg u took away from his W and another 20 from E?

Mrcookiejar5/13/2019, 7:25:13 PM23 votes

Hey while we’re fixing the W, can we please revert it to the original damage numbers?

40/55/70/85/100 flat, plus 4/5/6/7/8% (+2% per 100 ability power) target’s maximum health (max 200 versus monsters

15/30/45/60/75 plus 2% new W is crazy low compared to old W and puts Zac at a crazy disadvantage early. Literally any champion can invade him at lvl2 and win. He can’t even escape without the lvl 3 E.

Jellied5/16/2019, 12:24:04 AM22 votes

I am a Zac main with nearly 600,000 mastery points, plat 3 and 57% win rate. Current Zac and old Zac play very similarly and have similar objectives. They are a tank with a lot of CC, sustainability and survivability built into there kits. A tank's role is to absorb damage and CC the opponent. Every champion that is label a tank has a form of CC. So this quote doesn't make much sense, "we ultimately decided that we went too far in pulling damage out of him in our quest for a more CC-laden tank". Zac as a champion is not supposed to deal damage, Zac's main function, like most other tanks, is DISRUPTION. I have played Zac pre and post rework and the play style is very similar. From my time playing I have not noticed the reduction in damage. In old zac's build no damage items were built, for the exception of the seldom liandry's torment. But for the most part was built pure tank. His job isn't to one shot a carry its to put your team into a better strategic position than the enemy. So, i am unsure why a tank needs to deal additional damage. I would rather him have a better opportunity to out play than deal damage. Secondly zac's utl. His current ult is so, much more impactful compared to his old one. Zac's current ult is a game changer. And ony one that says " felt that after diving in, he wasn't able to accomplish anything more than just knocking people around" is not playing the current zac. This sounds to me much more like the old zac. zac would dive in, disperse and disrupt the enemy team. I never looked to deal much damage it was more to put the enemy team at a disadvantage. This is where a major issue comes in. The damage might have been increase on old but so, was his survivability. Back with old zac GA was still available to any champion but now it is allocated to only AD champions. Previously when I would play zac GA was my third item. Jungle item(cinderhulk), Warmog, and GA. The GA allow Zac 2 forms of a revive. So when he would dive into the enemy team, this extra form of a revive was very beneficial. But now that Zac does not build GA any more, this is why Zac's current ult is much better it gives zac that extra form survivability. Zac's current utl is so, versatile, It can be used to peal, escape and catch. It has so many uses and it gives Zac the ability to outplay which he was lacking previously. The ability to dive into an enemy team and have the power to pull a portion of the team away is Zac's best asset. The feeling when you have a good ult(example abducting a fed carry) is like nothing else. Old Zac never had that, feeling of accomplishment, because he really had nothing to outplay with. The ability to outplay the enemy team is very hard with old zac because he lack the necessary skills, he would really just dive in and "wasn't able to accomplish anything more than just knocking people around". When I saw this post it does not fit with zac's role as a tank and it reminded me a lot more of old zac than new. So again I do not understand the reasoning behind the changes. Zac is not over powered nor is he under powered. Zac finally has the ability to out play, turn a game and be more impactful. Why take that away.

Salvor Hardın5/13/2019, 6:40:20 PM19 votes

The R will also give us "fragments" of the passive to heal us?

TheSecretWeapon5/13/2019, 7:37:34 PM18 votes

The only thing I would change is giving back the old W flat damage back. It could make Zac's early clear better

New - 40/55/70/85/100 flat

New W - 15/30/45/60/75 flat New W is a joke compared to old W

As you can see we need to lvl up W 3 times to deal almost the same damage as old W with just 1 lvl. If you bring the old damage back we can spend points on Q so it does more damage

fish for my dish5/13/2019, 9:59:21 PM18 votes

Such a shame, I really prefer the new Zac's ultimate.

Twofish245/14/2019, 3:46:30 PM15 votes

Honestly I love the new zac. I think just some buffs to his damage would be significant. There have also been some suggestions here to have both old and new versions of his abilities on different casts which could be pretty cool. But the new Zac honestly is a power house when is come to cc. Giving him a more indepth kit could really help push him into the meta.

Jando5/13/2019, 7:08:49 PM12 votes

With 500k mastery points and over a thousand games played on Zac (prob 10% of that being on the reworked Zac), this post brings me a level of joy that I didn't know I could experience. I can't wait to try out the changes when the PBE goes live.

Galiö5/13/2019, 6:43:05 PM11 votes

I love it but one recommendation I would make is:

Have R have an interaction with Q1..
where you pull the target and begin your bounce towards the enemy where you meet in the middle (similar to Q2) but a neat extra engage possibility with your R.

shared90xpow5/14/2019, 10:56:38 AM11 votes

Pls dont change zac. It is too good actually and i love this kit. Pls riot listen the otp players zac. 😭😭😭 I m realy happy if dont change this..

Manamune5/15/2019, 8:22:29 AM10 votes

No dont take my beautiful boy from me, this current zac has such a high skillcap and gives so much potential for outplays, please dont revert his kit if you want to move his values/scalings around a little thats fine and all but i think from a mechanics standpoint hes in such a healthy spot. exhibit A of how badass current zac is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_w16JihHqs&feature=youtu.be

please please please, reconsider this. i love him as he is and i know he fits into the game much better this way.

Weigraf285/15/2019, 1:50:13 PM10 votes

For those saying about how the old ult had more impact than the new (current one). I have tons of videos going all the way back to the old ult, and you will see WAY more impressive plays/out plays/ creative situations with the NEW (current) ult than the old.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Weigraf28/videos?view_as=subscriber

Zac is my main go to champ, unless banned or a really bad idea based on team comp. You can watch any of the videos on my channel that I have posted and see lots of uses for his Q and R combo, E - R combo or sometimes all three - E into Q into R.

If I as the player have the skill and ability to pick priority targets in the mess of the team fights for Qs and R's etc - I should be allowed to make the plays that I went for. a random knock people around wouldnt even make sense with the rest of his kit.

The ult should NOT be reverted - I really hope this never leaves PBE cause it will gut the champions identity

@Riot Maxw3ll - please take a look at some of the videos I am talking about

I mentioned it before but in case someone new is seeing this - I have over 1,000,000 mastery on Zac spread over 3 accounts with 900,000 being on this account.

This video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-hWxslPHAs) the VERY first play in the video.. I jumped BEHIND the person so that I would hit him at his current spot AND if he flashed - and thats what happens. The Ezreal tries to flash out of my ult range - and was unable to because I didnt try to center my jump on his current location - I put the bulk of the AOE area behind him to account for the fact that he MAY have had flash - so in this instance and many in my videos - they flash and I STILL get them and now know their flash timer.

These videos are taken in gold/plat games btw (my current rank) and in prior seasons its mostly platinum games.

Wendígo5/13/2019, 7:04:22 PM9 votes

Can we revert Skarner too now with all these class update reworks getting reverted?

Acearoni5/15/2019, 3:06:18 AM9 votes

This has got to be the worst decision you guys have ever made imo. His kit is good, but he doesn't have any skins at all, so instead of working on cool designs for a champion that has plenty of potential, you decide to just lazily revert his ultimate? WTF?

Why would you revert his Ultimate to one from 2 years ago? There is absolutely nothing wrong with what he has going for him currently. I was so happy when his rework came out and now you're going to do this to him of all things?

Quicks5/15/2019, 8:30:46 AM8 votes

This makes no sense. He's good in the right hands and you nerf him this hard? you want to take out damage but keep the cc, still you nerf the cc by increasing the cd on his q, you take away his ultimate by reverting it and there for taking away cc. This is such a wierd nerf to him. Why do you feel the need to nerf zac? its like the quinn nerfs last year, it makes no fcking sense.. im suprised you want to nerf him, why dont you buff him? if you want to revert his r, then buff his q/w. but you also nerf the q... i'm sorry but this makes no sence, it would make more sense if you nerfed rammus right now, even tho i dont think you should, just want to put this nerf into perspective cause it's so wierd... and i think this nerf is rly bad because you also nerf his q. BUT you increas the w ap scaling, which is rly wierd cause he will just be worse. its like you make the karthus r be a skillshot BUT you buff his e damage ahah now he's actually good right?!! like it's realy shit sorry not sorry

TaillessPanther5/13/2019, 9:36:01 PM7 votes

I think a lot of people here are missing a huge positive to bring back his old R. Currently he has no escapes other than to channel his slingshot, now he can channel his old ult and live possibly with the added disruption and MS. Plus having him bounce around the enemy team creates a great deal of chaos that I loved and missed dearly in his old kit. His passive IMO staying at 5 mins is a huge problem with him right now. I think a good way to fix that is for every blob that revives him also lowers the cd by 30 seconds or 1 min. His current ultimate is such a hassle to have them just run off your body or just flash away. The only way I can imagine fixing that is basically making them unable to flash or simply walk off your body mid ult. Those are easy and really good QOL changes for either version of him. I personally have found his new ult useless since release since you're unable to even move, it simply took away way too much of his old mobility. With this revert I wont simply think freelo whenever the enemy team picks Zac now. I will look at him now again as an actual champ to fear.

Impish Yordle5/13/2019, 7:41:56 PM7 votes

Have you tried working on a version where the non-charged second cast of the "scoop" ult turns into the traditional multi-bounce ultimate in case there are players that still want to have the scoop ult? It would give players the choice between which type of ultimate they want to be going for without taking away the scoop ultimate. Should be fairly manageable as you can play around with cooldowns and numbers for each ult version alongside the rest of Zac's kit to open up that alley.

Triggered Poison5/15/2019, 5:18:23 PM7 votes

Dont like this changes. I played him before and after the Rework. I prefer his current ult. So many Options to save ur Team or just Displace the Enemy in ur Team. Zac is for me more the kind of Guardian Guy and not the Secret Weapon he was createt for. If u must give him Ap Ratios Maybe give him both the old and the new ult by holding the key. I was so excited for the Teemo Rework that would fit teemos design. On this hand this wouldnt fit zac at all. Pls think about it

YIKERS MIKERS5/14/2019, 4:43:21 AM6 votes

I’ve come to realize at this point no matter what I say the zac I know and love will be gone forever after this patch.I am currently a zac one trick in d3 with a 60% win rate over 170 games.Zac as a champion for me with his current ult brings a carry potential to tanks in high elo that I won’t be able to replace once it’s gone.Im extremly frustrated with how many of my tank junglers have been handled over the seasons where I finally find a champ that I love and I can main as a pure tank and still solo carry the game only to have that Champs viablilty as a tank ripped away in place of some janky bruiser or full burst mage that the game is littered with.Im sorry this is kind of a rant to an extent but im almost completly sure the reason people don’t understand current zac is because the zac mains pure unwillingness to change and many still try and treat him as a mage or build him horribly wrong then beg for a rework.To date I have probally 5 accounts in high plat near d4 playing only zac his carry potential in low elo is still amazing he just has a high skill curve and good zacs and bad zacs have a huge skill descrepency.Im horrified that after this change I’m going to lose one of the only reasons I play league of legends and be left with another reverted broken mess that I can no longer be a tank but forced to be an ap bruiser with a generic vanilla ult with nothing unique in his kit.I am not the only high elo zac who feels this way anyways that’s my two cents sorry for the long post and rant o know no matter what I say at this point he’s going to get reverted.

Profanity Pupper5/15/2019, 9:54:09 PM6 votes

Galio can be a super tank with an absurd amount of damage, team fight potential, and good CC but the second that people complain that Zac doesn't do enough damage, you don't buff his damage, you just revert him to an objectively inferior version of himself. Zac is a tank and always has been, now you're just gutting him because he doesn't do enough damage. Even with these changes, he won't do enough damage and be made of paper.

You took the one tank jungler that's somewhat decent when the jungle has been overpopulated by incredibly strong early game bruisers that can shut down any jungler that isn't in the same bracket, and now you're gutting him too.

Velasan5/14/2019, 8:53:08 PM4 votes

I don't get it. Zac hasn't been a high pick or that fun to play since his rework. They FINALLY get around to changing the ult back and a dozen replies on here are like, "are you sure want to revert it?" "We could have both ults and q's!"

Just be happy they are changing it back. This is a positive decision that will make Zac more fun to play, don't give Riot a hard time for that. Feels like no matter what they do someone is unhappy. There are so many awkward changes in the past year that people can be unhappy about, just let this one be a win.

Lazy Justice 15/18/2019, 12:22:01 AM4 votes

Back when before his first rework in 2017 I play A LOT of Zac in the top lane. I loved how he played in top, but the rework really made him unfun to play in that role. The changes to the W don't bother me too much, although I go full tank, it's nice for the ap bruiser Zacs to get some love. After reading some of the comments here I agree that putting in both Ults and Qs much like Pyke Q could be very interesting. Making Zac a champion focused around quick taps or holding down the button to differing abilities. He already has something like that with how he can charge his E, why not go all the way in on that concept and make him stand out that way?

Mrcookiejar5/24/2019, 5:42:37 AM4 votes

Here we go...

This is a good start, but please go all the way or just turn around.

Zac was not originally designed as a tank. We can pretend that the original creators wanted him to be a tank, but that would be wrong. The fact that his numbers and abilities were gutted and replaced with low damage, crowd control abilities to make him more in line with actual tanks proves this. His original kit makes no sense on a tank character.

Why would a tank need to dive a backline? That honestly makes no sense. Why would a tank leave the squishies unprotected, jump over the other opponent's front line, and land in the opponent back line? Doesn't that seem like something a DIVER would do? Dive??? It's no secret that E is Zac's signature ability so why would we change him. Zac is an AP bruiser by design of his abilities. That said there are only two options that will help Zac.

Option 1: Fully revert the Ultimate, and W to their pre rework state.

The W (unstable matter) should be restored from 15 / 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 to their original 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100. The amount of damage you guys took was crippling for the amount of cc we received. The heavy handed nerfs allow Zac to be invaded by any competent player at level 2 and pop a flash or passive from unhealthy level 2 Zac. This is the largest nerf Riot has done to Zac that has negatively impacted his playstyle. The nerf was completely unwarranted and a kneejerk reaction to his overloaded kit.

The previous R allowed someone to do almost all of the same things the current R does, it just required more skill. By landing from your E behind or in front of the target, you can knock them 400 units in the direction of your choice. The only difference between the ults is that with the new ult you can take enemies over walls. Unfortunately all it costs was most of Zac's clearing ability, damage, ability to trade, and ability to build ap bruiser.

The Old Zac pre rework allowed different builds to succeed due to the variety of his kit. The new zac forces everyone to go tank.

Option 2: Keep Post rework Zac

This new middle ground compromise zac is just a shadow of both of them. The W change is a placebo buff and is a step in the right direction but the actual numbers need to change too. Either keep tank zac, or revert him. A compromise is a sure way to make zac not do enough damage, or make him not be able to tank effectively either. Please revert the W. Please revert the R. Or just leave him be.

Red Fr0st5/29/2019, 6:12:13 PM3 votes

Cool , 2 weeks of "testing" and 0 replies , good revert , thx riot