Boards›Dev Corner

Mid Year Mage Updates - Zyra Direction

Riot20thCenturyFaux·3/18/2016, 1:01:18 AM·1 votes·244,702 views

Howdy! It’s Zyra! Zyra the plant mage!

The biggest thing Zyra players have asked for is more play around plants, and we completely agree. Her enemies feel the plant theme strongly, especially when they’re limping away from her burst combo under a hail of thorns. Zyra herself currently experiences plants as a way to invest more in a spellcast through W; we’d like to take this further. Her broader role as a counter-initiating zone controller is awesome so we’ll be looking to heighten it where we can.

The next thing on the wishlist is the passive. Player discussion as well as our own internal investigations have shown it’s the weakest part of her kit, and we think we can do better for her passive. Rise of the Thorns provides some cool moments at a time when nothing else is going on since you’re dead, so we expect players will notice the absence at first, but we feel this ability holds Zyra back more than it helps her. The spell’s slow missile speed and long windup were required for it to be fair, but in the course of becoming fair it lost a lot of fun.

On the upside, Zyra has a bouquet of good stuff. Her E is cool, satisfying, and very planty. Her squishy, defensive zone controller thing fits “plant mage” really well. We’re balancing her for the support role, but we do want to ensure that midlane stays fertile ground (update on this below). Lastly, the gameplay of spawning seeds during spellcast may not be the flashiest thing around, but it is uniquely Zyra and provides some subtle play -- do I put my seed on their feet or where I think they’re going to go? Do I get two ranged plants, two melee, or one of each? They’re unique and they deserve to be preserved.

Here’s where we think she’s at:

Stuff that’s good

  • Strong identity as a counter-initiate mage.
  • Preserve her ability to catch and burst people who enter her domain.
  • You feel the plant theme strongly playing against her.
  • She dies quick if you catch her.
  • Her ult is powerful, distinctive, and satisfying.

Stuff that’s less good

  • She doesn’t have enough ways to play around plants.
  • Her passive isn’t as fun as a passive should be.
  • Plant behavior often feels inconsistent / buggy

Here’s what we’re trying to get out of the Zyra changes

  • Zyra’s playstyle has more opportunities to play around plants.
  • Players who attack an entrenched Zyra should be very afraid.
  • Zyra’s strategic nature as a counter-initiator is even stronger.

That’s all the thoughts for the initial post. I’m happy to answer questions and join in the discussion, I’ll be following the thread as it develops!

Good hunting, 20thCenturyFaux

1,352 Comments

Nausicäa 3/18/2016, 2:44:56 AM338 votes

Can you please explain why the hell you're primarily 'balancing her for support'? A Rioter recently stated her focus would be for mid. Her original design was for mid. Most people who truly like Zyra WANT HER TO BE A MID.

"We are leaving room for mid lane to be a subpar non meta pick" isnt a good enough response.

Zyra should be balanced around mid lane with a strong but niche option to go support PERIOD. If this isnt your direction then change it now, because anything else is ruining the champion and going against what the core Zyra fanbase want.

Ozi3/18/2016, 3:20:23 AM85 votes

{quoted}

We’re balancing her for the support role.

I strongly disagree with this, Riot. As someone who has mained Zyra Mid since Season 2 (with 2000+ Zyra Mid matches), I'm very disappointed with this decision.

Zyra has always been a Mid-Lane Mage first, and Support second. Most Zyra players I know enjoy her more in the mid-role, but are only forced to play her support (over the last 2 seasons) because you nerfed Zyra to be a less-than-optimal pick in the Mid-Lane.

The Majority do not PREFER her as a Support, but have simply DEALT WITH IT and RELUCTANTLY ACCEPTED IT because it's currently the only role where she's more than mediocre at.


Look at her Most Frequent Build on Champion.gg: ![item 2049](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/2049.png) ![item 3092](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3092.png) ![item 3020](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3020.png) ![item 3151](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3151.png) ![item 3116](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3116.png) ![item 3135](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3135.png)  Apart from Sightstone and the Gold-Gen item (which are mandatory on all Champions playing Supp), where do you see the Support items in her build??? Where??? Since when does a Support build full Magic Pen (especially Void Staff) unless they intend to do nothing more than deal tons of damage and delete enemies on their own, without having to rely on the ADC?

In your supposed "Recommended Items" page for Zyra, you're telling us that we should buy: ![item 3117](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3117.png) ![item 3222](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3222.png) ![item 3060](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3060.png) ![item 3050](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3050.png) but when have you ever seen a Mid/High-Elo Zyra player frequently buying these actual Supportive items???

I will tell you now, not a single Zyra Main picks Support with the intention to actually aid/support their ADC. We play her as "Bot-Lane AP Carry" and nothing else. We just pretend that we're "supports", but we're actually there to build full AP + Magic Pen, and be the AP Carry for the team.

I was really hoping that you'd finally bring her back to the Mid-Lane with this update (as some Rioters previously stated so), but now I'm just crushed.

Why even balance her around Supports? Apart from her AoE crowd-control, she doesn't even have any of the utility that a true support has (shields, heals, ally buffing, enemy debuffing, auras, tankiness, mobility to roam, etc?). Heck, even Morgana and Lux have more "support utility" than Zyra does (with their ally-casting shields; one which blocks enemy crowd-control), yet everyone knows that Morgana and Lux are Mid-Lane Mages first, and Supports second.

Why balance Zyra around Supports when her combo can deal more AoE burst than most of the current Mages in the meta?

Why balance her around Supports when most ADCs don't even appreciate a good Zyra player because they'd rather a "real Support" that can heal/shield/buff them?

Why balance her around Supports when her entire kit pretty much screams "AP Carry!"?

Seriously Riot...

Casri3/18/2016, 1:48:45 AM64 votes

I like the sound of everything except this:

{quoted} We’re balancing her for the support role,

As a Zyra main (with a high preference for mid lane) this worries me. I was under the impression that Zyra was being reworked as a solo-lane mage like all the other reworks, and as she was originally designed; heck I would even rather she was balanced around jungle than support...

Support Zyra is fun, but gimmicky and way less compelling thematically (establishing her own personal garden in mid rather than being some ADC's stooge).

This makes me feel like you guys just perceive the threat of Zyra-support becoming too strong through Zyra-mid changes. Her mid and support share the same strengths- this is well known, but in a duo lane her inherent weaknesses (2nd most squishy and most immobile champion) are less pronounced as she is not the focus target, her ADC is.

So when you say you're balancing her as a Support, in my view, it provides an excuse to keep her solo lane weaker than it ought to be, at the potential threat of her becoming too strong a support.

Katai Jyji3/18/2016, 1:34:27 AM63 votes

That's honestly kinda disappointing to wait 14 days in comparison to the 7 days for other champions and have such a lackluster resume of her imo, especially when you're aiming to balance her for support when you announced ( well not you but another rioter ) in another thread that she expressed best herself when she was in a primary role for gold. A good mid will always find its way to the botlane, a good support won't find its way to the midlane.

Furthermore, in the other directions every spell of them were treated differently, strenghts, weaknesses and what it implied for the gameplay of the champion and what they intended to do for each one of their spells.

Here you're merely saying "that's cool, that's satisfying, that's good", just why is it good ? Why is it cool ? Why is it satisfying ?

What do you intend to do with the passive ? Tweak the current one or add a complete new one ? In which direction will it go ?

You feel the plant theme strongly playing against her.

In what way is the Q representing the "plant theme" for you ? Except for the "plant skin" ? That's merely Brand's W, with less range, less damages, but a shorter CD. The plant theme is provided by the W effect, not the Q.

Zyra herself currently experiences plants as a way to invest more in a spellcast through W; we’d like to take this further.

Cool, how do you intend to do that ? Adding more interaction with her spells ? her passive ?

Do I get two ranged plants, two melee, or one of each? They’re unique and they deserve to be preserved.

The problem is plante balance atm and again, the AI behind both. One ATM is clearly stronger (range plants) due to the buggy AI, the fact that slows don't stack, and a strong synergy with some items ( Rylai.. ). Will we have a "fix" of the AI and the bugs we can often encounter ? ( Not attacking when in range, not attacking for 0.5sec after blooming, wrong target .. )

Her E is cool, satisfying, and very planty

Her E is cool, very planty and iconic of the character, sure, but it's everything but satisfying atm. That's one of the slowest CC of the game, so easily avoidable by anyone with dashes or high mobility, especially with all these new items and buffs, that is requiring an immobile champion to stand still ( her crouching animation taking at least 0.5 sec) for 30% to 70% of its duration depending on your levels.

Syndra can stun in multiple directions for twice the speed while not having a casting time, sure both are really different, and Zyra's overwhelming teamfighting strenght should come with a downside like her poor resistances and her fragile state, but in the other hand she doesn't have anything that allow her to survive or outplay the enemy depending of the player's skill given she's the slowest champion of the game, her E isn't complex enough to provide her a good protection and her ultimate has a pretty long windup thus isn't reliable enough ( knowing you don't seem interested in giving the choice to players for example to closing the trap early thus affecting the CCed zone) .

Do you intend to do something about her survivability despite keeping her fragile state ( resistances, HP ..) or is that a no go? That's one of the main reasons she's more frustrating to play every season due to all these mobility changes and new champions with pretty safe kits, I kinda have the feeling that by "balancing her for support" you're just entirely skipping the reasons why she isn't played much in other roles, that's because she's too dependant of others.

SnugglePuggle943/18/2016, 1:57:35 AM61 votes

"We're balancing her for the support role".

First off, NO. Just no.

She's a mid lane mage, but with the crazy meta right now she's found more success as support, but don't balance her as one! That's one of my pet peeves. You did it to Karma, Morgana among others. Now you are doing it to my favorite mid laner.

Secondly, I would like to see her base defensive stats and movement speed buffed. Even just one of those I'll take as she's too slow and too squishy and that's not a good combination at all, combined with her really weak root duration, if she misses her E, she's done for.

Those are my main complaints. Other than that I would love the delays on her spells to be removed. We miss a lot of damage because of that because those that are high mobility (most of the champions now a days) can easily side step it.

JudasLover3/18/2016, 1:24:41 AM50 votes

Even if you say you wanna maintain Zyra mid good, seeing that you finally ended up balancing her primarily for a role that doesn't make her as glorious as she could be is sad. I really hope this doesn't make mid Zyra weaker than now in any way at all. So many champions who would have been glorious mid have been devoured by other roles like poor Ekko. Luckily Vel'Koz survived and most of them are mid and not support now. :(

Also, on the 'role gone astray' part, I think it's good to support whatever the players choose in some cases, but many times the original role a champion is designed for really is worth being optimized for by you guys and people are just gonna get used to it. Zyra mid could have been a spectacularly iconic mage, but just because she had CC and everyone got used to her bot lane, support absorbed her. I was hoping you would solidify her mid with this update, but now as I said I just wish Zyra mid doesn't get weaker.

ShadowParker3/18/2016, 2:11:59 AM44 votes

Please balance for mid lane. It should be balanced around mid lane while keeping support viable. Not the other way around.

Myself and MANY other players also feel that mid lane should be the primary focus. I know you guys like supporting multiple roles, which is fine. But balance around mid lane.

JudasLover3/18/2016, 2:43:22 AM43 votes

I am really so proud of all you Zyra main boys and girls that comment asking for Zyra to be focused on mid! I love you all and I think that with more pressure on all social media we can help Riot see that Zyra's fantasy is realized in the coolest way in a solo lane. Let's keep fighting for it! <3

DeReiniger3/18/2016, 9:51:38 AM43 votes

Dear 20thCenturyFaux,

I'd like to state one thing:

Whenever you argue that "since most people play Zyra as a support, we should balance her around the support role", you are giving the well-known naturalistic fallacy. To specify: just because something is the case, does not mean it is ought to be that case. There is no justification whatsoever.

Zyra is played as a support, but she was ought to be a midlaner on release.

Here is your chance to turn one of your champions into the fantastic iconic plant mage she was supposed to be. There is no need to consider her to be "the fantastic iconic plant support" as well; people just played that because that was merely the best way they could make use of Zyra, all while dreaming of times where they didn't need to pick her as a support but could shine as a midlaner.

Also: there is another big chance here. Currently, Zyra is already pretty viable in the jungle because of the marvelous changes you guys have made to the jungle itemization. Iconically speaking, there is no better place for the plant mage to be, than to be between a lot of plants: the jungle. Please recognize this opportunity.

Stellafreyja3/18/2016, 3:20:37 AM36 votes

I don't understand why you're balancing Zyra around Support. I thought the whole point of this update was to target Mid-lane Mages (and Vlad) to make them more distinct/viable. And yet, you're taking a Mage who was designed for mid lane, nerfed so badly she was relegated to Support, and instead of getting her back to mid lane you choose the role she wasn't intended to be?

Someone had said you guys didn't choose Karma for this update because you wanted to avoid Support Mages and yet, this is a complete contradiction. I don't like this, and be prepared for backlash.

Aquairess3/18/2016, 2:22:53 AM31 votes

"We’re balancing her for the support role, but we do want to ensure that midlane stays fertile ground. "

This makes me want to cry. I felt a knot in my stomach when I read that line. She IS A MID LANER, please don't force her support. Support with her is weird and most adc's actually hate it. You take kills, you take minions, they get mad, and no one is really having fun. Mid is a grand time of doging and landing combos. I would really hate to lose my main champion in her main role. As with many other it seems.

cystium3/18/2016, 4:17:06 AM27 votes

Her E is cool, satisfying, and very planty.

Yes, No and yes. It doesnt feel very satisfying considering the cast-time, duration and missile speed. the spell is slow so most people can dodge it with relative ease, especially with the dramatic increase of champions with dashes and general mobility since her release. In addition landing it only gives you a small net gain especially at the early levels since it lasts extremely short considering it essentially stuns zyra as well. 0.75 root with a 0.50 cast time does not feel satisfying at all. I don't see why it can't last 1.75 sec straight away considering lux has a similar cast time spell which roots for the full 2 seconds from level one. i realise Zyra can hit it through minions and lux only through one,but she already pay's for that with reduced duration, damage and AP scaling.

Synæsthoenix3/18/2016, 2:22:10 AM26 votes

I don't understand why she is being balanced as a support when she is part of the MID mage update... unless that means mid as in mid-year rather than mid lane sigh. I really enjoy playing her mid more, despite her not being too effective in this mobility meta. Honestly, I'm really disappointed, I was waiting for this post for a long time to finally see that mid Zyra would finally be optimal with updates, so I could finally stop playing her as support and into midlane but no mas, I guess. The literal only reason why I play Zyra support is because she it's almost abysmal to play her mid with her lack of mobility, squishiness, and CC that is unreliable when taking the casting time and the slowness of the skillshot into account.

Kitsy3/18/2016, 1:36:08 PM24 votes

"We’re balancing her for the support role, but we do want to ensure that midlane stays fertile ground."

So you are also then going to balance Annie for the support role? No offense but Zyra is a midlaner who is played in support role aswell. I feel offended when you say she is gonna be balanced around beeing a support. Annie and Brand are often played support, but they are no more support than Zyra is.

Zyra is a midlaner/solo laner and should be balanced around that! I dont want my main champion to be changed around supporting.

LankPants3/18/2016, 1:20:21 AM19 votes

The next thing on the wishlist is the passive. Player discussion as well as our own internal investigations have shown it’s the weakest part of her kit, and we think we can do better for her passive. Rise of the Thorns provides some cool moments at a time when nothing else is going on since you’re dead, so we expect players will notice the absence at first, but we feel this ability holds Zyra back more than it helps her. The spell’s slow missile speed and long windup were required for it to be fair, but in the course of becoming fair it lost a lot of fun.

I hope this means that you're scrapping the passive entirely and going back to the drawing board creating a new one. There's nothing salvageable about Zyra's passive and it's honestly something that just needs to not exist. It feels terrible to use and I really can't see reworks to it making it feel better, you still have to die to use it after all.

Do I get two ranged plants, two melee, or one of each? They’re unique and they deserve to be preserved.

Right now there is never a reason to get two melee plants. The slows don't stack so having 1 and 1 is always better.

EROTIC RAID BOSS3/18/2016, 2:13:17 AM17 votes

I'm surprised you guys want to balance her for support, I thought you'd want to get her back in mid?

Star Of Love3/18/2016, 1:14:15 AM10 votes

Does this mean you guys plan on keeping a revenge passive just tweaking the current one or are you planning on a new passive altogether?