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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 9

RiotMeddler·8/9/2019, 4:40:27 PM·1 votes·120,341 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Some 9.16 SR Balance Context

Looking at some of the changes coming in 9.16.

Buffs:

  • Jax - We're looking to give Jax a little bit of early power, aimed in particular at top lane play against ranged opponents (Q CD 8-6 from 10-6)
  • Lux - Now that the 9.14 nerfs have had some time to settle we're confident we took a bit too much power out of support Lux. We wanted to hit fairly hard, hit her harder again than intended though. We're putting a bit of power back into the W rank ups as a result.
  • Shen - Some buffs aimed at giving Shen a bit more split push power mid-late game, especially against tanky opponents (buffs to Q % health damage and E damage). Intent is they should benefit top Shen more than support, given top Shen maxes Q earlier.

Nerfs:

  • Azir - Going for just a small nerf here that gives slightly larger windows against him late game (Q CD 15-7 instead of 15-5). We originally tested some larger nerfs but given he's not highly OP and we're buffing other champs who tend to play mid conclusion was a light touch here made sense.
  • Corki - Here by contrast we're looking to take noticeably more power out of. We're hitting his reliable damage specifically (base AD and AD per level). Changes look small on paper, we've seen small looking base AD changes have large impacts historically though.
  • Riven - Riven we're targeting due to her High MMR solo queue performance being really strong. In retrospect lowering the Q CD significantly in 9.10 wasn't necessary. Going back on most of that buff as a result.

Honor 5 Chromas

We've got some chromas coming this year Medieval Twitch and Grey Warwick. Goal there is to be able to give Honor 5 players who've already got both skins additional rewards. How that will work is that your Honor 5 capsule will contain two Honor 5 tokens, each of which can be exchanged for Medieval Twitch, Grey Warwick or one of the chromas for those skins. When we revealed the chromas a couple of weeks back we originally stated players would only be able to get one. We've since corrected the plan so folks can get both as originally promised earlier in the year.

For those of you who've already opened Honor 5 capsules for the year we'll send you tokens separately sometime during 9.16.

TFT Ranked

We've got some work underway looking at ways to improve how Ranked works for TFT. While we did a fair bit of tuning of the existing system to adapt it to TFT we think, based off what we're seeing and feedback received, that there's a fair bit of room to customize it further to better meet TFT needs. Don't have details ready to share yet, will do so as soon as we've got some specific tactics in mind though.

RNG in TFT: Item Drops

I'm aiming to cover this topic in detail in a post within the next couple of weeks. Was hoping to do so this week but would like to give the TFT team a bit more time to map out their upcoming item work first. Short version for now though:

  • We think high game to game variation is very important for TFT given adaptability is one of the most important skills TFT tests
  • We don't think solutions like exact same number of items per player every game are the way to go
  • We don't think the current drop system gives sufficient options/alternatives to players who aren't getting many items either though, so are looking to make some changes. Details, or at least planned direction, to come once we've got something solid enough to share

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

193 Comments

Winterkill8/9/2019, 4:54:36 PM44 votes

Karma

Can you please comment about Karma? Mark Yetter said you are "looking" at Karma for even more nerfs. This is right after you just buffed parts of her kit a few patches ago. Are any Developers concerned that PARTS of the VGU 6 years ago did more harm than good? Karma was the very first VGU Riot ever did, but it was rushed, very lazily done, and further work done on her has been counterproductive and very ignorant on Riot's behalf. You've made claims that she needs a lot of work, but every time there is work to be done it's cancelled, ignored, or it's a back and fourth buff and nerf that solves absolutely nothing. Developers make nothing but excuses as to why their work ethic cannot solve problems and issues YOU created.

Every bit of fun and unique gameplay element was taken away from Karma, every iconic ability or art direction was taken from Karma, and the skill and unique gameplay identity Karma offered to the game was taken away from Karma. What are Developers doing to correct mistakes that make:

  • Karma a unique champion on her own that makes players think, "Hey! Only Karma can do that and it's totally cool!" She literally has Mantra abilities that exist on item actives and parts of other champion's kits.
  • Karma's art was misdirected and it was a perfect opportunity for Developers to really go all out with her art and really give us something majestic, inspiring and peaceful. Instead, Karma doesn't even have splash-arts that match ingame models, no shield casting animation, the model itself is clunky, and her new haste animation is hardly anything to write about.
  • What does Karma offer to the game that any other Enchanter or support does better than her? What unique gameplay identity does Karma offer to the game with conflicting identities inside of her kit? How fun is Karma to play as and against when her kit is anti-fun when overbuffed and unfun to play with if she isn't buffed into oblivion?

The ball is in your court Meddler. What's going on with Karma since the cancellation of her GU that you had a hand in? You took the Developer who wanted to do more work on it and asked for it and moved her to the TFT team. You're cancelling champion GU, removing TT and ignoring balance problems for TFT. Is TFT your top priority now?

Cameramon8/9/2019, 5:56:51 PM10 votes

Why has Riots position on output randomness (i.e. randomness that happens after all planning and decision are made and changes the outcome) changed so drastically? It used to be that you identified it as a big problem and something the game shouldnt have, in any of its form. Nowadays, not only is the hinted crit rework that removes output randomness nowhere to be seen (and comments on whether or not its been canned non-existant), but the solution to giving TFT added variety is output randomness rather than the healthier input randomness? Also can we please just get official word on whether crit will remain output randomness forever, or if it will be changed?

TheEndlessRiver8/9/2019, 4:45:05 PM10 votes

It better be something huge then if you refuse to make it so that people get equal items. They're too powerful to give someone a couple gold while others get items. Sure you can adapt and try to play for later, then you hit that one person who got like 3 items already and they roll over you and thats it.

Kyunsei8/9/2019, 4:42:00 PM9 votes

When will we have first intel about current tested changes for Pre-season 10 ?

Thanks for doing those posts, these are the saviors between community and Riot games dev team.

MooooooooreDakka8/9/2019, 4:57:24 PM9 votes

Could we get a bit of insight from you on Twisted Treeline being removed? I've never been the most active Treeline player but I've always liked the map and there are all sorts of posts on the boards from people who really loved the mode even with the neglect that it got. What is getting rid of it even going to accomplish?

Groove Crusader8/9/2019, 5:09:26 PM8 votes

Hey Meddler

Since Aatrox is being included in new Pantheon's lore, would it finally be possible to give his animations a lookover to fix some of the bugs like was done for the Bloodmoon skin, and if that's not your department, who's the person to ask?

Neo Birthday8/9/2019, 4:49:43 PM8 votes

Nothing about Wukong yet i guess ?

meteorbreaker8/9/2019, 5:02:06 PM7 votes

Good night Meddler!

  1. Is there any thread will be future plans for Coop vs All? Are there any changes in the plans for bots?

  2. Zyra’s current status. Do you have any plans for her? Now it would be possible to focus more on her solo lane, especially to help the midlane.

Ready 2 RumbIe8/9/2019, 5:29:19 PM6 votes

@Meddler Can we get a damage counter in game for items? For example seeing how much damage Liandrys or BotRK have done all game by hovering over the item.

You track it in the death recap so it must be possible.

Seraρh8/9/2019, 9:23:47 PM6 votes

Hey Meddler, ever since Diana received her Q recode a few patches ago she has struggled with bugs. While you already fixed some (like Moonlight not resetting on R use), there are still 2 big ones that make this champ a pain in the ass to play. 1. her R sometimes doesn't reset even when Moonlight is properly applied to a champ and 2. her passive sometimes procs on the 4th attack instead of the 3rd. Here is a comment on the Diana Mains subreddit with video examples for both bugs as well as possible causes. Would be glad if you could look into these! Have a nice day!

Nibbie2178/9/2019, 4:49:40 PM5 votes

Hey Meddler! How's Aatrox looking so far after the revive removal? Seems like there's a really wide range of opinions on the champ and his solo queue is pretty skewed toward masters+. Do you guys think he's at an acceptable state now or are we gonna be back on the roller coaster soon?

Señor Hot Buns8/9/2019, 5:00:58 PM5 votes

Hi Meddler,

I read that you guys are considering some jungle changes for around pre-season. Can you expand on that a bit?

LordGreenSoul8/9/2019, 8:48:03 PM4 votes

Hello Meddler,

years ago you guys removed Sightstone and combined its warding active with the support items we had back then. Those were Frost Queen's Claim, something of Ascension (i dont remember tbh) and Face of The Mountain. Those 3 items all had useful actives which you brought back with Twin Shadows and Shurelyas. BUT i still miss my Face Of The Mountain Active on Summoners Rift and it could really help out Tank Supports to not just peel with cc but also with a Shield that is not Locket of the Iron Solari since that got nerfed often enough. Also I don't really understand why you haven't brought some FotM clone item into the game yet and I'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

Thanks for reading if you did ^^ Greetings from a Taric Main

BLIGHTBRINGER8/9/2019, 4:42:06 PM4 votes

Hey Meddler, what are your thoughts on Varus right now? His performance in SoloQ is relatively weak compared to his Pro-Play.

Small Boobs Ahri8/9/2019, 4:51:48 PM4 votes

Hello Meldder, I would very much like your opinion on this fact,

What do you think of doing a test during a patch to completely disable the ability to write in the chat? There are too many games where people spend more time trying to tryhard the cat for flame than this concentrated in the game itself, People will tell me /mute all when it happens, but unfortunately it doesn't solve the main problem, yes I will have more messages in the chat, but it doesn't change anything that people about will continue to talk and step this focus on the game

What impact will it have on the League of Legends game in general ?

ggambino8/9/2019, 5:11:46 PM3 votes

Hey Meddler,

Whats the verdict on Irelia? Is she going to get nerfed again? If she is can she get an Akali/Ryze adjustment so she doesnt go right into the dumpster?

And on that note, what do you think about the continued presence of Akali in pro play? I want to brace myself if more nerfs are incoming. (Please don't)

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Amentis8/9/2019, 5:01:01 PM3 votes

Hey Meddler,

any plans for Kalista to make her playable in soloq again at the moment?

Linna Excel8/9/2019, 5:04:15 PM3 votes

Meddler, is there anything going on to help both top and jungle right now, particularly focused on regular ranked (not pro) play? Mains of the roles have been saying both lanes have been pretty rough for awhile and need some attention.

MisterGuy8/9/2019, 5:11:42 PM3 votes

Hey Meddler, I hope everything is going well for you. I was wondering if you could tell me what Riot has on Urgot; the threshold data such as winrate, banrate, presence. Is he in a good place or is he in need of some buffs or nerfs? Thank You.

SoisauceCCH8/10/2019, 12:25:07 AM3 votes

I like that. "Fair play is not something we care or strive for in our new game mode. Get fucked by RNG nerds.".

What a joke. This is why Riven is still godtier and your game is in the dumpster.

Win Zhao8/13/2019, 2:22:19 AM3 votes

TFT-related: Please remove gold dropping from anything past round 1-3, thats a terrible "variance" to have 1-5 items or 1-5 gold drop at chicken stage. the wolves and chicken stage is the most critical imo, thats where people get a ton of items or some items to flesh out their team.

NotSoEvilDead8/13/2019, 10:02:49 AM3 votes

{quoted}

RNG in TFT: Item Drops

  • We don't think solutions like exact same number of items per player every game are the way to go

This is so hilariously nonsensical... whoever is behind these decisions is clearly not equipped to be designing strategy games... acknowledging and then actively ignoring the single best way to balance your game is mind-numbingly stupid

your statement is literally a commitment to leave the game broken and unplayable

astounding

just a fat nerd8/13/2019, 10:03:48 AM3 votes

"> {quoted}

RNG in TFT: Item Drops

I'm aiming to cover this topic in detail in a post within the next couple of weeks. Was hoping to do so this week but would like to give the TFT team a bit more time to map out their upcoming item work first. Short version for now though:

  • We think high game to game variation is very important for TFT given adaptability is one of the most important skills TFT tests

  • We don't think solutions like exact same number of items per player every game are the way to go

  • We don't think the current drop system gives sufficient options/alternatives to players who aren't getting many items either though, so are looking to make some changes. Details, or at least planned direction, to come once we've got something solid enough to share

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png "

Here's some Ideas for the sake of being more original:

*****NPC's drop item tokens instead of items, which you can exchange for an item of your choice. Carousel's remain the same to keep the win and loss incentives intact.

***Item exchange system

  • spend 5 gold to trade an item into one of your choice
  • spend 2 gold to re-roll a random item
  • spend 15-20 gold to BUY an item??

***Make items removable from champions

TFT is VERY different from League. Please don't get caught up in the mind set of trying to be different for the sake of being different at the cost of making the game worse. Equal items still means RANDOM items, which still means adjusting strategy and build around your RANDOM drops and RANDOM champion rolls. There is TONS of RNG left over if players receive the same number of items. Please keep in mind this game is something I try to enjoy in my free time and games take over 30 min on average to complete, and it REALLY sucks when I spend that time at a disadvantage from everybody else in a ranked competitive match where they just out item-rolled me. Equal items means a more even measurement of skill in each game between players. I think you need to decide if TFT is going to truly be a circus or if it's something that can be played competitively in a more serious way, I really do think it comes down to what you do with itemization... the rest is all champ tweaking and everyone is kinda sorta on equal footing there, that's mostly game knowledge. Items are simply TOO STRONG as is to be unevenly distributed between players currently.

if you don't allow players control over items, and they have no control over champ rolls.... then all that's really left here is knowing your rolling odds and best comps/current metas right? Then rolling and hoping for the best?? Does that sound like a game that's going to keep people engaged long term?

Thanks for reading and your hard work and long hours so far! TFT has so much potential and I'm hoping for the best!

Blooface8/12/2019, 9:16:27 PM2 votes

{quoted}

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Some 9.16 SR Balance Context

Looking at some of the changes coming in 9.16.

Buffs:

  • Jax - We're looking to give Jax a little bit of early power, aimed in particular at top lane play against ranged opponents (Q CD 8-6 from 10-6)
  • Lux - Now that the 9.14 nerfs have had some time to settle we're confident we took a bit too much power out of support Lux. We wanted to hit fairly hard, hit her harder again than intended though. We're putting a bit of power back into the W rank ups as a result.
  • Shen - Some buffs aimed at giving Shen a bit more split push power mid-late game, especially against tanky opponents (buffs to Q % health damage and E damage). Intent is they should benefit top Shen more than support, given top Shen maxes Q earlier.

Nerfs:

  • Azir - Going for just a small nerf here that gives slightly larger windows against him late game (Q CD 15-7 instead of 15-5). We originally tested some larger nerfs but given he's not highly OP and we're buffing other champs who tend to play mid conclusion was a light touch here made sense.
  • Corki - Here by contrast we're looking to take noticeably more power out of. We're hitting his reliable damage specifically (base AD and AD per level). Changes look small on paper, we've seen small looking base AD changes have large impacts historically though.
  • Riven - Riven we're targeting due to her High MMR solo queue performance being really strong. In retrospect lowering the Q CD significantly in 9.10 wasn't necessary. Going back on most of that buff as a result.

Honor 5 Chromas

We've got some chromas coming this year Medieval Twitch and Grey Warwick. Goal there is to be able to give Honor 5 players who've already got both skins additional rewards. How that will work is that your Honor 5 capsule will contain two Honor 5 tokens, each of which can be exchanged for Medieval Twitch, Grey Warwick or one of the chromas for those skins. When we revealed the chromas a couple of weeks back we originally stated players would only be able to get one. We've since corrected the plan so folks can get both as originally promised earlier in the year.

For those of you who've already opened Honor 5 capsules for the year we'll send you tokens separately sometime during 9.16.

TFT Ranked

We've got some work underway looking at ways to improve how Ranked works for TFT. While we did a fair bit of tuning of the existing system to adapt it to TFT we think, based off what we're seeing and feedback received, that there's a fair bit of room to customize it further to better meet TFT needs. Don't have details ready to share yet, will do so as soon as we've got some specific tactics in mind though.

RNG in TFT: Item Drops

I'm aiming to cover this topic in detail in a post within the next couple of weeks. Was hoping to do so this week but would like to give the TFT team a bit more time to map out their upcoming item work first. Short version for now though:

  • We think high game to game variation is very important for TFT given adaptability is one of the most important skills TFT tests

  • We don't think solutions like exact same number of items per player every game are the way to go

  • We don't think the current drop system gives sufficient options/alternatives to players who aren't getting many items either though, so are looking to make some changes. Details, or at least planned direction, to come once we've got something solid enough to share

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

so it doesnt matter that everyone has been asking for exact same number of items per player since beta? lol way to not listen to what the players want, you know the ones who keep money in your pocket? suck up your damn pride and DO WHAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN ASKING FOR HOLY COW. you guys are gonna pussy foot around this for a year and then finally do it one day saying something along the lines of "we dont like how RNG dictates if a person gets more items then another player" then you will put it in. what a joke the league balancing team has been for years.

Row Pios8/14/2019, 9:24:39 AM2 votes

I think dashes combined with flash need to be re-looked at. For example, you can flash mid yasuo e to get the knockup on your 3rd spin q, but you cant flash mid fiora q to hit a vital behind someone. Neither of these abilities are channel type abilities however one can be flashed mid dash and the other cannot.

Examples of other mid flash dashes: Gragas, jarvan 4, sejuani, shen

Examples of non flash-able mid dashes: Fiora, rakan, fizz, qiyana, renekton

I think revisiting which champions are allowed to flash mid dash to preform outplays is worthwhile. Although not everyone plays these less popular champions, they deserve the chance to make the flashy outplays that other champs can do.

Cheers, Row Pios

Theorex8/13/2019, 5:01:19 AM2 votes

Can you talk about Jungle for preseason and season ten as a whole. Then afterwards I would like to talk about CDR and other over abundant stats.

Jungle is a frustrating role, for both jungle and laners.

Playing as Jungle (when in off role) against on role junglers of lower skill (not much lower, probably like d3 to p2.). I noticed a few things. First jungle is just awful for power farming. You are better off cheesing the enemy laners than you are farming your jungle. Let me talk about something I did and tested out. I stole the enemy's first buff, after their leash. And prevented the enemy from getting their second buff. BY ALL MEANS. That player should have been out of the game. Losing first two buffs + still level 1 at 3-4 minutes in game. But, the player was able to simply gank non-stop (even though they were dying in the ganks, still getting a positive trade). They managed to crawl back into the game vs me who had taken both sides of his jungle 2 times + my own jungle 2 times. He caught up in level. By no means at 10 minutes should a player that has been denied 11 camps be able to crawl back to the same level as a player who is 10 camps above. Said player had 5 assist and 3 deaths. To my 1 kill and 2 assist. 1 death.

What this means, is that gaining a jungle advantage means absolutely nothing. This means, that even if you are the better jungler, better solo laners can still out perform you, having a longer lasting impact on the game. Me denying the enemy jungler should have meant that he never comes back. That is a heavy denial. That would be equal to a top lane player, freezing the wave in front of his tower for 4 minutes + zoned the enemy top laner away from the wave (to where he didn't get EXP). We see that the top laner, actually gains more from this style than the jungler does. Jungle is a glorified support, at the moment. And not in a good way either.

Now to my primary role. Mid.

The most frustrating thing in existence, is seeing a jungler come by 5 times in 2 minutes. That means in a period of 120 seconds, you will have a period to fight and punish the enemy laner of 24 seconds. Now accounting for Minion Travel and Moderately Safe Play, that window is diminished to 6-12 seconds (depending on the champion). The jungler does not allow for the laners to play skillfully. The jungle currently presents a issue of Safe play > rewarding play. There should never be a time in which I engage without my jungle. If I engage without my jungle the chances of me winning drop by 50%. I can say the same statement for top lane as well, since that is my secondary role. At least with the top lane, they are more ignored than Mid and Bot.

How do these two things tie into each other?

Jungle as a role, is just not a good role. Because they have to HEAVILY rely on the early game. (mainly due to ward coverage being heavily nerfed) and then rely on their laners to perform well. Right now we don't see this issue, because Damage is SO GOD DAMN HIGH. But the second that damage is back to acceptable levels, the game is going to go into a period of massive changes again. Jungle will feel extra bad, compared to right now. As damage packed champions will feel much weaker, and have less impact in the early game, and thus fall off even harder in the late game.

Lets move over to CDR.

I have been saying this for years. CDR is too abundant. We have CDR on every item that you can imagine. Start items for Mages, and Fighters. CDR on AD assassin items.

Back when the game was picking up traction and popularity, CDR was something you had to go out of your way to get, often times forcing you to make a trade for the CDR. Nowadays, CDR is packed into a very strong item, making you take no trades, other than "which one of these 2 or 3 strong items do I want?"

CDR should not be in any starter items. Mages, Supports, Fighters, or Assassins. Very rarely will a tank start the game with a CDR item, as they are not the greatest items for them to start with, and weirdly enough. Tank CDR is in a very good spot right now.

Mages will hit 30% cdr after 1 item, because there is no reason to take celerity or the other one.

Fighters will hit 40% cdr on 3 items, Notably if they go BC/TF > DD > SV or BC/TF > Spear. Now I know that the second one isn't going to happen. But it is a possibility.

TL:DR.

Jungle needs better treatment for the players, and the laners. As in, make ganking more punishing, and raise jg exp on blue side, while tuning it down on red side.

CDR needs to be heavily removed from the game. At least on starter items, no CDR item should be a starter item.

astralwit8/11/2019, 7:46:54 AM2 votes

Krugs have to be the most valuable camp or they aren't worth doing given the time/HP needed to clear them. Also, asymmetry in jungle can be good because it creates something to fight over/prioritize. It gives you a way to track and thus a chance to use that information for exploitative plays. Rather than nerf Krugs, why not just buff the camps on the other side a bit? Jungle is way underleveled anyway.

Elemem8/11/2019, 12:13:11 PM2 votes

Thanks for another Azir nerf As an Azir main I really enjoy everytime I see Azir on the patch list It's really not demoralizing to play him every patch for anyone lower than challenger It's not like you're buffing all his counters on top of nerfing his early game. I mean maybe you can debug him atleast, not even him, just fix his tower visual bugs because you know fixing him would be an actual buff because it's that bad sometimes. And Riot just LOVES to nerf Azir so fixing the bugs is a no-no.

Everytime Riot has taken away a mechanic: his w on towers, his knock-up on e, his ult not bouncing back dashes or jumps, I just imagine Azir losing his memories because his abilities are literally derived from his memories. And one day, with Azir's debilitating Alzheimer's (or with the multiple concussions with Riot's nerf hammer), he is going to turn to forget who he is and he will turn to dust.

One change that I think would do little but would feel pretty good: Increase passive tower attack speed to scale with level and stop it from degenerating when Azir is near his tower because it feels like people don't respect it because it's alittle doo-doo.

FrancisMuni8/11/2019, 1:28:05 PM2 votes

item 3070 Skarner item 3070

When are you doing to do anything for him?