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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 1

RiotMeddler·8/1/2017, 4:27:39 PM·1 votes·49,112 views

Morning all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Loading Screen Tips

For anyone still wondering, yeah, these are definitely lasting much longer in game than they should. We'll be shortening them in the next patch (7.16) so they're not still on screen as you're trying to jungle invade or emote spam each other.

Ward Consistency Pass

Also going into 7.16 will be a consistency pass on how attack modifying abilities interact with wards. Our intent is that abilities should stack on wards, but buffs shouldn't get consumed by them (in part because those abilities shouldn't be applying their bonus effects to wards). Most abilities already work as they should in that regard, there are a number though that need correcting (Jax R from memory consumes its 3rd hit damage for example). That should be on PBE already, let us know if you're seeing anything that still doesn't behave as it should.

Brand

We're pulling the Brand changes that have been in testing for 7.16. Still looking to do a bit of work on Brand at some point, see if we can make him a better choice in mid lane, rather than being as skewed towards a support as he is. Changes we've been testing don't hit the mark in terms of intuitiveness and feeling natural on Brand (bit too mechanical).

Ancient Coin

We're also going to be hitting the Ancient Coin line in the next patch. The mana return especially's definitely too high, and we're seeing that come across both in a lot of general power and excessive removal of consequences from poor mana use by many supports (blowing a lot of mana for no gain should have more cost). Might or might not need some further tweaks to gold income at some point, unclear for now if that's in the right spot or not with the mana return also being out of line and clearly in need of reduction. Looking at dropping that down to 10%, also considering whether a lower % max, rather than a larger % missing, model might be more appropriate.

259 Comments

IxtaliKing8/1/2017, 4:32:10 PM33 votes

Will there be any work done on Zyra and Karma to make them better choices in mid lane at some point? They both share Brand's issue.

Nebuul8/1/2017, 4:57:41 PM19 votes

Is Riot happy with the state of Tahm Kench? Every website is tracking him at 44-47% win rates. He has had almost all his original advantages removed:

  • he's got a large, cumbersome hit box, but his 200 range aa allowing him to trade over minions was removed. This results in him being helpless and stuck in minion waves
  • his self-healing has been drastically nerfed
  • his W regularly consumes the wrong target if multiple legal targets are under the cursor (priority should be 3-stack enemy champs, then allies, then minions/monsters)
  • because of the switch to depending on stacks for his passive damage, he now has a much harder time killing minions and monsters
  • his W spit regularly just spits out gold but no projectile if he consumed a low-health minion/monster

Some suggestions have been to give him back his "ranged melee" auto attack, to allow him to stack his passive on everything for damage purposes or to just make minions/monsters always take full-stack damage. It has also been suggested quite frequently to allow him to stack his passive on blue/red buffs so he can consume/stun them like champions at 3 stacks.

ShadowParker8/1/2017, 4:31:20 PM17 votes

Context behind those specific Taliyah nerfs?

Any idea if Zyra will ever be pushed back into midlane? Most people play her support, but that's mostly because her scaling isn't that great.

Malicious Metal8/1/2017, 4:34:32 PM10 votes

Hey Meddler, I've got a few balance-related questions.

Kayn Where do you think Kayn falls in terms of power-levels. I've recently played against quite a few in my ranked games and he can feel really overwhelming at times. Especially Rhaast is a real pain to deal with.

Nautilus His win rate is still pretty low. Not as low as the abyss he was thrown into but I think he could use some love. Thoughts on maybe giving him a soft rework to bring him in line with other tanks? (I'd see some changes from flat damages to % that might help him in the Jungle, more emphasis on his W as it's windowed power, and maybe reducing some of his cc)

Galio Well, he seems to fall into the same boat as Shen, doesn't he? Even with the base damage nerfs he's still played primarily full tank.

Viktor Any news on the Machine Herald? I'd very much like to see some changes to him that would make him feel better to play since his Hexcore augment really gimps his laning. Maybe reduced wave clear for more power in his base kit?

Mordekaiser Thanks for the Bugfix. That's all.

Majin Vegeta8/1/2017, 9:00:18 PM9 votes

i dont think nerfing the gold gain from coin is a good solution, i think buffing the gold gain of the other 2 to match it would be better. with the coin i finally don't feel like im struggling to have more than 2 items (not counting sightstone and boots) by mid to late game if im not fed from assists when playing support

Kyunsei8/1/2017, 4:27:58 PM7 votes

Nice further drakthar nerf ?

WintersWard8/1/2017, 4:34:29 PM7 votes

Please dont nerf coin into ground so its useless. I woud appreciate it if u would rather try to buff the other two lines from Gold income. I agree that the mana is 2 much y but 10% should be fine imo. Just look at coins gold efficency. Upgraded Coin(49%) Targons 72% and Frostfang has 80%. So please just add like that the relic shield gives the supp 5 more gold and add 2.5 gold per stack 2 frostfang or so. Dont nerf the coin back into useless state. That would rly suck for Rakan. (And Some others but mostly rakan cause coin is only good item on him) Cause u have no poke for spellthief and ur not meele / have more dmg for relic. ty for atleast reading it

Redesignated8/1/2017, 5:06:08 PM7 votes

If you're going to be nerfing Coin, you should look at buffing at least Spellthief's Edge as well — the reason Coin has completely crowded out Spellthief's on the majority of non-tank supports isn't just because of Coin being good, it's because Spellthief's has been bad.

The Spellthief's line has been nerfed repeatedly because a small handful of mid-laners used it to get gold leads in favorable match-ups or could make good use of the active on Frost Queen's Claim, but rather than try to work its play pattern so that it kept its power for damage supports but lost some for straight mages, it's just been trashed completely. Mana regen has been nerfed, AP has been nerfed on all of them except FQC, a mandatory pause was added between procs coming from one ability — it's been too much. Spellthief's was the standard choice only because the alternatives were either even worse (Ancient Coin), or inviable for most (Relic Shield).

The quest reward on Spellthief's Edge isn't amazing, either. Compared to Relic Shield, which can easily out-gold-generate it during laning if you time your procs for cannon and melee minions and provides a high-value health shield; and Ancient Coin, which grants your teammates extra mobility; Spellthief's quest exclusively gives you bonus movement speed for a very limited window, and only after applying a proc — and on top of that, you reach your quest reward the latest in most cases.

Coin isn't popular strictly because it's "too strong." It's popular because the alternative for non-tanks is terrible.

If you really intend on putting further work into Coin, shift it toward an enchanter-focused item so it actually has a strategic identity. Part of the problem right now is, Coin really doesn't serve a unique purpose: Spellthief's Edge (despite its current state) is geared toward frequent damage on enemy champions and turrets, Relic Shield is for durability and surviving damage in lane, and Coin is — for what, exactly? High mana costs? Not anymore, with this nerf. Mobility? Highly generic, and not really a good thing to build an entire support starting item identity around, considering the sheer power potential of movement speed.

Realistically, Coin should become a protective enchanter-oriented item — give it the Forbidden Idol effect, 5% as Coin, 10% as Medallion, maybe even 15% on Talisman since that takes up a separate item slot that could otherwise be dedicated to another Forbidden Idol upgrade. From my understanding, Windspeaker's Blessing is being removed in the rune/mastery update, and a direct analogue is unlikely; having a starting item provide the additional heal/shield power wouldn't be overbearing.

Edit: Additionally, Relic Shield could use some improvements as well — not in its quest reward or its stats, really, but in the ability to actually use it to get gold after laning. People absolutely refuse to let you use your procs for no reason during the mid-game, which not only hurts them (no healing), but severely hurts you (lowest-gold-income role not even getting to use its only way of earning money). Hell, past a point, people clear minions so quickly that if they don't let you sit there and smack the melee minion for six seconds to low enough, you can't get procs off.

It needs functionality improvements. Its power during laning nowhere near high enough to justify the trade-off of how useless it feels afterward, and rather than make it stronger early, it should feel better later.

SanKakU8/2/2017, 12:58:56 PM6 votes

Instead of nerfing yellow income item, why not buff blue income item? I usually just buy the green one. There's never a reason to take the blue one anymore. If you have the yellow one, the extra mana makes up for the damage you lose for not taking the blue one and you get greater/safer income.

Kaori8/1/2017, 5:04:37 PM6 votes

Where are the Yasuo changes that you mentioned few weeks ago?

Spideraxe8/1/2017, 4:31:57 PM6 votes

Hey Meddler quick question, any thoughts how Urgot is settling in?

MagnumDongChapon8/1/2017, 4:42:36 PM6 votes

Will Aatrox Rework come before, during or after the pre-saison ?

DeathBurst8/2/2017, 4:01:50 PM5 votes

Re: Ancient Coin, I'm definitely not sure, but my gut feeling is that %max would be better than %missing.

With %missing, the "optimal" way of playing is to use as much mana as possible and keep just enough for a full combo, not more, to maximize the amount of mana you get back. This is a bit counter-intuitive, and certainly not the intended behavior, right?

SciFi Scrivener8/2/2017, 6:00:19 PM5 votes

Careful with reducing the Ancient Coin item 3301 gold as it's a welcome income generator for supports. Maybe look at increasing the other gold items to balance it out. Not that supports need to be Scrooge McDuck, but it has been nice to buy the items needed to keep myself relevant mid and late game.

Càne8/1/2017, 4:35:00 PM5 votes

Why was Maokai's q reverted?

Off ßrand8/1/2017, 6:49:21 PM4 votes

I'm a midlane Brand main and these changes to make him more viable mid have me excited. I'll drop some thoughts here.

A simple solution to gear Brand more towards midlane would be to transfer more of his base damage into AP ratios and make his waveclear more instantaneous. That could make his early game a little weak though. Currently his W can only reach either the melee or the ranged creeps, with his E also being needed to further clean up the ranged creeps or do more damage on the melee, with a second required rotation. Compared to other mages like Viktor and Anivia or even Ahri, Orianna, Syndra, and Lux, his waveclear is below average and extremely mana consuming. As so, doing something to better his waveclear would make him more viable for midlane, maybe increasing the radius to which E can bounce to other ablaze targets.

I also liked the E used a little like a farm tool to last hit, putting it on a reduced CD. Since Brand's base AD is a little low, he needs 2 autos where most mages need one so tower farming gets difficult sometimes since it's relatively easy to push Brand in, especially early where his waveclear is mediocre with the mana costs associated with it.

I think hitting the early mana regen but compensating with higher base mana and better growth could also help with gearing Brand towards mid rather than Support, since the spellthief line provides only just enough Regen to be spamming abilities in the bot lane.

Furthermore, Brand is supposed to be an AoE mage yet his Q is single Target and being his main CC, requires the target to be ablaze, giving a huge window of time for counterplay opportunity whether with a flash, dash, or sidestepping its quite narrow hitbox and below average missile speed. Putting them ablaze to land a Q requires getting into dangerously close range with E or R or attempting to land a very telegraphed W. And in the end Brand just gets creep blocked so Q doesn't land.

Despite these weaknesses I enjoy playing Brand mid because of his high AoE damage potential and his combo playstyle, where you can pick and choose your combos based on situation. Adding new and unique functionalities to Brand that support this playstyle could help him settle in the midlane. Thanks for reading through this long post :)

DiGiorno8/1/2017, 6:28:30 PM4 votes

Any upcoming plans for Draven? Seems that his damage is a little too high before crit, and a draven with even one or two kills can snowball into 1v5 potential very quickly.

Glory to God8/1/2017, 4:31:28 PM4 votes

Do you estimate the Azir changes being implemented before or after the worlds patch?

SystemException8/1/2017, 10:52:10 PM4 votes

I don't know why you would want to nerf the ancient coin. Support is the role that no one wants to play and now there is finally a reason to play it. Being the lowest level, having least combat effective items, and gaining the lowest amount of gold just plain sucks. So please give the other support items more power so that not all supports are picking up coin and keep support at its current power and fun level.

Since his release, I've played more Brand than anything else, by far. I think Brand's Q/W/E are fine. I think most Brand players max W then Q then E, but I like to max E second for that sneaky damage no one ever sees the extra explosions from a flaming target coming. The only thing I would like to see is more damage on the passive burn. Maybe up to 4% max HP from 2%. ( I think that's what it was before the rework). And since there aren't too many tank killer mages in the game right now, he would have his place in the meta. His R feels really bad as well. I've always thought giving him charges of it, instead of giving it bounces. It is a pretty low range attack so you'd have to get in pretty close to use all the charges. I could even see the range being reduced to what conflagration's currently is and conflag getting the longer range of his R (that would help him lane quite a bit.) As it is now, I just get close enough to press R then run like hell the other way and hope that it hits more than one person. When it does, it is glorious and I feel super strong, but when it doesn't its depressing and I just have to sit back and try to stun people. Forcing him to get a bit closer in the fights but giving him more consistent damage from the ult would be a nice trade-off I believe.

At level 18 with 1000 AP, that would be 5 charges of 300 + 250 (25% AP ratio) on a glass cannon who dies to 3 auto attacks from and AD at that point in the game. It would require insane positioning and timing, but it could work with some really good players, or against really bad players. He would be great in Bronze and pro play but probably pretty bad everywhere else, unless you put a lot of time into him.

Eeyore8/2/2017, 3:35:49 AM4 votes

For Brand - what about a bit of survivability? I gather from the class rework list that you were originally set on making him a battlemage, so perhaps some tools that actually befit the class would be appropriate?

Some possible, thematically appropriate ways to do this:

  • Pyroclasm can now select Brand as a target and restores health.
  • Blaze explosions now heal Brand.
  • Brand now is the projectile for Pyroclasm - a la Blade Waltz. I know it wasn't very successful on her, but just image a cackling fireball bouncing around! (Where he lands could use Last Breath logic on his final target - i.e. prioritizes placing him out of turret range, otherwise at attack range.)
  • Brand will now possess whoever kills him, applying Blaze. If the target dies before Blaze times out, Brand is revived using them as a new host. (If the target is at 2 stacks when he dies, the third stack will give him 6 seconds to be resurrected due to the explosion; alternatively, dying could apply 2 stacks, meaning he's guaranteed 6 seconds so long as he was previously in combat with the target).

At the moment he has a lot of fire spells, but very little that makes him a Fire Elemental that infests hosts.

Much needed quality of life:

  • Conflagration now uses Edge Range for spreading (and ideally also for casting).
  • Conflagration now deals bonus damage to secondary enemies. (Anything to encourage its usage as the second spell in his combos, rather than always being the first; this would be a change that would be a luxury only mid-laners really have to play with.)
  • Conflagration's blaze effect will now trigger if Conflagration kills a non-blazed target. (Another effect that would only really be usable as a solo-laner, due to farm-taking).

Another idea:

  • Pillar of Flame, instead of 25% bonus damage versus blazed targets, now erupts a second time after a further 0.625 second delay if the first eruption hits a blazed target. This second eruption deals only 50% damage.
Devinedarkness08/1/2017, 4:39:09 PM2 votes

Hi meddler, I've been playing Heimerdinger for a fair while now pre and post buff. and I've found the same issues with facing certain Champions, like lux, vel'koz and even Brand. their AA's are just out of the range of heimer's turrets and considering they can virtually 1 shot the turrets with an ability, I feel that it's a little unfair for the early game where heimer needs to have the chance to pop off.

I'd suggest a slight increase in turrets firing range as that's the only logical way I can think would be any help currently. Thanks for reading ^_^