[FOLLOWUP] Garen Juggernaut Update

RiotRiotRepertoir·May 11, 2016·1 votes·34,949 views

Hi everyone,

It's been awhile since Juggernauts have released, but we did want to publicize our current opinions on Garen following his update in the Juggernaut patch last year. In this, I'll go over what our original goals were, what we think is currently working, problems that may be worth addressing (as well as ones we accept as costs of the update), and future steps we might take on the champion (if any).

Original Goals
Solidify Garen as a Juggernaut:
- Make him a meaningful damage threat throughout the game.
- Improve his kitability for opponents.
Reduce presence and reputation as strictly a situational lane bully.
Make games with Garen in them feel different or "uniquely Garen."
Keep Garen accessible to newer players.
What's Working:
Increasing E spin speed with champion level makes his damage scale into the later parts of the game.
Villainy succeeds in making games with Garen in them feel unique/different.
The changes to Garen haven't compromised his accessibility to lesser skilled players.
Problems to Address:
Villainy sometimes feels like it ends up on odd targets.
Tactical counterplay (especially for melee opponents), is still quite poor against Garen.
Known Tradeoffs:
Villainy passive can feel tacked on, though not the worst offender of this.
Villainy system punishes an opponent for doing well.
W is even more boring of a button now than before.
Next Steps:
The next time we are in a position to do balance/cleanup work on Garen (which isn't something we're actively looking into):
- Investigate ways to improve clarity on Villainy target selection for opponents. In an ideal world, a target would never become the Villain and not understand why.
- Investigate better tactical counterplay mechanisms for Judgment (E).

I hope this helps to let everyone know where our heads are at on Garen, and again, sorry for taking sooooooo long to get this out there.

Cheers, Repertoir

179 Comments

DeathBurstMay 11, 201616 votes

So as someone who started maining Garen a month or 2 before the rework and who has continued since then...

I really feel like I'm much more kite-able, the Tenacity lost on W is really making a difference.And yes, it's desperately boring now.
But I also really feel like my damage late game is much better than before.

So good job on that.

Regarding Villainy, people at my ELO (high silver) veeeeery often don't respect it. Every few games, there is a carry that snowballed on mid+bot while I was alone Top, then we group and I one-combo them and they start complaining in /all chat. They don't understand what being the Villain actually means. On the other hand, even if you do understand what it means to be Villain, there isn't a lot of things you can do about it, except kiting, which is always a good idea anyway, even if you are not the Villain. The lack of "tactical counterplay" isn't so much an issue with the E, imho, than an issue with the Villain passive. All in all, as the Garen player, I enjoy this passive quite a bit, but I understand that it can generate a lot of frustration.

Regarding Villainy selection: I do agree that there are a few odd cases, like a support becoming the villain for a short period of time due to one double kill a few minutes ago when at the same time the midlaner has 15 kills and counting. But they are not so common, and not really problematic. More importantly, I think that before any work on the selection though, you need to define precisely the objective of Villainy. Who do you want Garen to be strong against? The highest performing player? The biggest source of damage? The most ahead opponent? I don't really know, I have this vague idea that if someone is doing well I need to shut them down, but I don't really understand what was your gameplay goal with this passive, even if it works wonder from a thematic stand-point.

Regarding the E, there is one easy way to add counterplay: making it a channeled ability interrupted by CC. But of course, that would be a HUGE nerf, and a loss of specificity (Garen is a good counter against anyone with a stun/blind), and I don't think it would be a good idea at all. But on a higher level, does this ability really need counterplay specifically? Unless you are the Villain, Garen damage is not so overbearing, and this is an ability dealing damage over a relatively long duration, it's not as if it was an easy way to burst a squishy or whatever.

pigsqueaksMay 12, 20162 votes

Riot if you read this top comment at the moment PLEASE don't tune Garen for Silver Elo, ask Challenger players what they think of Garen you'll see....

DeathBurstMay 12, 20166 votes

Well, I do know that balancing is rarely done for lower ELOs, and I'm actually in favor of such a system.

I'm also very interested in what Challengers have to say, I'm sure I still have plenty to learn, even on a simple champ like Garen.

All that being said, no Challenger actually came and said what he thought, so I think Riot is still better with my Silver feedback than no feedback at all.

Finally, I didn't suggest any specific tuning, I only reacted to what Riot said and gave general feedback on the current state, not on where they should move it in the future.

All in all, I find your suggestion that my whole comment should be dismissed just because I'm Silver rather... irritating.

ShadowMarkMay 13, 201610 votes

Garen no armor pen no %healt damage, R rexcluding opponent lane vs item 1031 or item 3068 receives garen damage seriously reduced is happening My advice %healt damage or villian damage %1.5 or %2 buff Garen vs All tank garen 0 damage... including garen low damage, damage buff must 1v1 fiora true damage darius armor pen bonus ad damage,renekton anger bonus damage armor pen damage,voli ad ap damage,jax ap ad damage,olaf true damage,ırelia true damage,ekko,fizz %healt damage garen Only physical damage item 1031 this item garen damage is 0 garen lane 1 v 1 villian true bot lane Lucian marked opponent target ourselves If you could choose 1 v 1 he balanced could Garen Other top lane champions compared It remains seriously weak Garen buff please... Ekko Fizz vs Garen Garen lose because Fizz Ekko %healt damage have moreover much more movement speed have Garen cumbersome

Eskimo503May 15, 20161 votes

I love this comment because I can tell you are really passionate about Garen, but you present it in a Garen manner- a real rollercoaster to read. I think you're saying he needs some armor pen/damage bonus though he does have a lot of %health damage on his ult and true damage on the villain. I agree ekko is way to mobile!

ShadowMarkMay 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I love this comment because I can tell you are really passionate about Garen, but you present it in a Garen manner- a real rollercoaster to read. I think you're saying he needs some armor pen/damage bonus though he does have a lot of %health damage on his ult and true damage on the villain. I agree ekko is way to mobile!

Garen capabilities control automatic R villain automatic, passive healt regen automatic, e judgment automatic, ct play in order to do No chance.. Villain high damage Preferred not, Darius He can focus on the person wants fiora R passive,trundle R likewise garen as villain support R we shoot ? , also garen villain damage %1 insufficient is I'm thinking

Eskimo503May 17, 20161 votes

If he could choose the villain it would be too strong though, he would just choose whoever he is fighting and get massive reliable true damage with the ult. If he could chose, the damage on it would have to go down. I can beat a Garen in lane as Darius right now, but if the villain lands on me, it doesn't matter, as his ult will do upwards of 2K true damage in the 1 v 1 (Twice as much true damage as a fed Darius ult). I think the armor shred on item 3071 should be enough to cut through item 3068 . Because riot now assigns roles, they could make it so the villain never falls on the support, that might help.

ShadowMarkMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If he could choose the villain it would be too strong though, he would just choose whoever he is fighting and get massive reliable true damage with the ult. If he could chose, the damage on it would have to go down. I can beat a Garen in lane as Darius right now, but if the villain lands on me, it doesn't matter, as his ult will do upwards of 2K true damage in the 1 v 1 (Twice as much true damage as a fed Darius ult). I think the armor shred on should be enough to cut through . Because riot now assigns roles, they could make it so the villain never falls on the support, that might help.

I do not agree item 3071 item 3068 all ad off tank items are taken Garen R 2k true about 2k hp opponent max 800 true damage 2.5hp max 960 3.5k hp max 1250 true damage Darius R level 3 all 1100 true damage passive +200 bonus ad + ult kill reset Garen full healt The item field ult hit more than normal 1v1 as for 2k true ? 3000 healt, 1 healt ult 2 k true, villain %1 true op If you think Master yi E, Fiora R passive, Vayne W Take a look at I'm right because, as you say If op gold1,plat,diamond,master,challanger Darius yes is played, Garen gold1,plat,diamond,master,challanger No is played

Garen for,opponent item 3068 purchase Coming lane damage does not eat, Darius for the same is not the case in question Darius e passive ult true thanks to finish the job, as I said Garen ct play in order to do No chance

Garen item 3071 buy but item 3068 against Garen just physical no %healt damage, no armor pen,no sudden damage other fighter champions Garen by comparison high damage Garen for armor pen it is not enough Garen fighter champion tank not no cc, taken opponent against poppy,ırelia,fiora,darius,olaf trundle and such fighter champions high damage can throw but Garen low damage, briefly Garen tank champions against damage damage can not uncontrolled villain damage excluding

Eskimo503May 18, 20161 votes

You make really good points here. I mentioned the 2k true damage because at max rank, Garen ult does 525 plus 40% missing health on the villain- on a Darius with 5k max health, sitting at about half of it, Demacian Justice would do about 2.5 k true damage in this instance. Not so much on squishies! Everything you are saying is right- Garen doesn't have the scaling damage, can't choose his high damage target, and isn't seen in higher elo because he is outclassed by all other fighters (pick Darius instead)- but maybe that's the intention by riot, because he is so strong for new players and lower elos.

ShadowMarkMay 18, 20162 votes

5k healt max Garen ult true no 2500, 1500 hit, 5k healt too much who that's it healt taking Mundo even max 4khealt Darius and Garen normal healt 2.6 k healt ult 1k the same damage 1500 hp ziggs Darius ult 1k Garen 700 No exaggerated case

DCYOUNG888May 11, 20167 votes

@RiotRepertoir, just curious, how often is item 3748 titanic hydra used for juggernauts (e.g. Garen garen, Skarner skarner, Darius darius, Nasus nasus, Illaoi illaoi, etc.) or other beefy champions. Lately I have not been seeing as many juggernauts or other use this item as much anymore and the titanic hydra was originally meant for juggernauts. I understand that there were issues previously with Fiora fiora, MasterYi yi, and Akali akali with abusing the titanic hydra but is there a way to make it more favorable to juggernauts in terms of stats (including AD)? Also how is mordekaiser's status right now in the mid-season? Sorry that the message is long btw.

SaltyKrackaMay 11, 201610 votes

The real problem with Titanic hydra is that it's basically an on-hit item with added damage and tankiness...and absolutely none of the juggernauts autoattack all that much.

DeathBurstMay 11, 20167 votes

Exactly, and especially not Garen, whose main source of damage is his E.

Photos of GhostsMay 12, 20161 votes

Nasus Darius DrMundo TahmKench Udyr

Rinky DinkyMay 12, 20165 votes

Udyr is the only one of those who's soley focused on auto attacking to do damage

SaltyKrackaMay 12, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=vGeO1pR9,comment-id=000600000003,timestamp=2016-05-12T09:40:07.171+0000)

Udyr DrMundo TahmKench : Decidedly not juggernauts. Darius : Less good than it could be, considering his very low base attack speed. Not exactly his core item, either. Nasus : Absolutely fucking terrible. No player in his right mind builds it. Nasus scales with neither the HP, the AD, nor the on-hit.

Photos of GhostsMay 12, 20161 votes

Udyr too hard to kite, but he has no dash and only 1 cc. Melee tanky DPS : Juggernaut. DrMundo Riot stated themselves that contrarily to their initial thoughts, Mundo would be classified mainly as a Juggernaut. TahmKench Tanky DPS with HP, immobile. He just has a lot of powerbudget in his devourer, making him a support. His lockdown is single target. Darius Has autoattack resets and can stick around for a lot of autoattacks. He can use it. Nasus His only way of dealing damage is his autoattacks, and he has ArPen for its physical damage. Syphoning Strike + Dead Man's Plate + Titanic Hydra + Triforce under the effect of his E can oneshot a squishie. His ult currently gives him flat HP which is bad with Jugg itemisation, but that will one day change.

SaltyKrackaMay 12, 20163 votes

Udyr : Impossible to truly kite, massive movespeed, has hard CC and a mini-dash. He's a Diver. DrMundo : Impossible to kite due to movespeed and inbuilt tenacity, has Q. More Diver than Juggernaut. And I'll believe that when I see it. TahmKench : He's a fucking tank. Not a Juggernaut. A tank. Don't get me wrong, Titanic is amazing on him, but he is decidedly not a Juggernaut.

Darius I'm not going to argue with you on Darius, because out of all of the Juggs he's actually really the only one that actually likes to built Titanic at some point in the game.

Nasus : Wrong a dong dong. His only way of really dealing damage is his Q. Everything he builds is based around that fact. Whether it's CDR for stacking Q and Qing more, items that give him mobility or slows to get off Qs, tank items so he can survive long enough to get off more Qs, or Sheen items to synergize with Q, the star of the show is not his autoattacks. It's his Q.

Also he doesn't scale with AD in any meaningful fashion and flat health is incredibly shit on him. Titanic Hydra is bad on Nasus. Really bad. Take it from a Nasus main.

DeathBurstMay 12, 20164 votes

A few nitpicks, sorry.

Mundo feels more like a Jugg than a Diver to me. He has no lockdown and bad target selection, he can't really reach the backline through the frontline, but his sustained damage is very high. He's not the 100% archetypal Jugg, I'll concede that, but he's still more of a Jugg than a Diver, because he lacks the core strengths of a Diver.

And Titanic is bad on Nasus, I agree with the overall conclusion, but one detail is wrong in the middle of your paragraph: Nasus's Q does synergyze with Titanic on-hit. He spends all his time auto-attacking and the Q is a reset that allows him to apply the on-hit even more often. I'd argue that Titanic on-hit is as good as Spellblade. Problem is that IBG or Triforce are full of stats that Nasus loves, whereas the on-hit is the only good thing on Titanic, so Titanic is still a shitty item overall.

ShadowMarkMay 14, 20167 votes

Problems to Address:

Villainy sometimes feels like it ends up on odd targets.
Tactical counterplay (especially for melee opponents), is still quite poor against Garen.

yes really troubles Garen 1 vs 1 powerless teamfight as a preservative

My other suggestion R villian true damage (level 6 %1.0) (level 11 %1.5) (level 16 %2)

and villain, against garen 20% less damage to the gives.

Investigate better tactical counterplay mechanisms for Judgment (E).

My advice remove critical damage add %healt damage and high elo ranked %0 is played critical damage garen useless

or remove garen healt regen passive useless mid and late game add fury mechanic

DorkunedAurasMay 16, 20161 votes

Crit is a 100% optional thing, and he's not balanced around it, given how few people build it. It was literally just added on because it used to crit and it allowed full AD garen to work.

ShadowMarkMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Crit is a 100% optional thing, and he's not balanced around it, given how few people build it. It was literally just added on because it used to crit and it allowed full AD garen to work.

Fiora Darius Gnar Ekko Trundle Volibear

DorkunedAurasMay 17, 20161 votes

Fiora is supposed to crit and build full AD, the fact that she doesn't isn't their design

Gnar isn't supposed to build crit, and has 0 special interactions with it, only his autos crit.

Darius is same boat as Garen

Ekko doesn't EVER build crit

Voli and trundle have 0 interactions with crit and never build it.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

ShadowMarkMay 17, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Fiora is supposed to crit and build full AD, the fact that she doesn't isn't their design

Gnar isn't supposed to build crit, and has 0 special interactions with it, only his autos crit.

Darius is same boat as Garen

Ekko doesn't EVER build crit

Voli and trundle have 0 interactions with crit and never build it.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

which fighter tanks champions crit build is happening ?, Garen crit useless and The main item item 3071 Garen armor pen stack and cd healt buff

item 3031 3600 Gold area up.. depending on the request crit It is true but high elo crit Garen did you see all item 3071 other Full tank

also other fighter tanks champions free %healt damage, armor pen,high physical base damage no crit all of are advantageous

ShadowMarkMay 15, 20167 votes

SkyblazeHydraX3May 11, 20166 votes

Tactical counterplay (especially for melee opponents), is still quite poor against Garen.

PRAISE THE LORD FOR RIOT HAS SPOKEN

Seriously, playing against Garen as melee anything is a goddamn pain in the ass, because he can freely silence you then just butcher you. And because you HAVE to be in his range in order to deal your damage, there is nothing you can do about it.

DeathBurstMay 11, 201613 votes

Well, I'm not denying that playing against Garen is frustrating, but I want to point out that what you described is a general weakness of melee against everything. ALL champions are in range to hurt a melee if the melee is in range to hurt them.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 12, 20161 votes

the problem is that garen loses 0 melee to melee match ups straight up. whether he builds tank or damage. that is in the laning phase

DeathBurstMay 12, 20167 votes

Garen has no melee counter but a few match-ups are skill-based and not easy ones for Garen. It's not easy to shut-down a Nasus, Irelia has a dangerous power-spike with Triforce, Mundo can win if he pokes properly, and Darius can straight-up duel Garen unless he misses his skill-shots. The list is not exhaustive, it's just example.

On the other hand, almost every ranged champ is difficult in lane for Garen, whereas a lot of the champs cited above can fare decently, because they have a reliable gap closer and/or CC.

FriusMay 12, 20161 votes

Darius can straight-up duel Garen unless he misses his skill-shots. ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL darius skillshots

DeathBurstMay 12, 20165 votes

Yeah, exactly, which means that Darius can straight up duel Garen most of the time. But trust me, if a Darius misses his Q, or even worse his grab (he shouldn't even try to grab unless you engage him first, if he's smart), that's precisely the time to run at him and wreck him.

pigsqueaksMay 12, 20161 votes

This is insanely incorrect. Garen loses to just about every ranged matchup, plus because of his garbage tier early game now he gets 1v1'd by many more melees he used to beat, including (skill levels equal) : Maoki, Mundo, Irelia, Darius, Pantheon, Cho, Ekko, Fiora, GP, Jax, Renek, Malph, Olaf, Tahm, Singed, Trundle, Trynd, Voli, Xin, Yorick. Not only can these meele's kite him, he doesn't do meaningful damage to these guys until he is around level 11+ when his E actually starts being useful. This thread is full of bronze info, notice how no Scarra/Voyboy/Dyrus' complain about Garen?....champ is bad straight up, the reality is nearly every champ has the tools to beat Garen when both players are of equal skill.

DeathBurstMay 12, 20162 votes

Either I'm more skilled than my opponents, or your list is wrong. Because I certainly don't lose to Mundo, Cho or Ekko, and I win more than half the time against Maokai, Pantheon, Renekton, Trundle and Darius. Fiora, GP, Irelia and Jax are indeed hard match-ups, but it's still far from hard-counter levels, especially if you manage to make them waste their stun during your E for the last 2.

On the ranged side, old Vlad (didn't play against the reworked one yet) was a skill match-up, and Teemo was a bit strange but not really hard. It's not auto-lose as soon as the opponent is ranged. When Lissandra top was more popular, it was also possible to play against her.

And Pros don't complain, so the champ is bad? He could be, I don't know, just balanced? You complain when there is a problem, not when everything is fine...

Stars ShaperMay 11, 20166 votes

Sorry to be "that guy" but... Are you doing these posts for all the Juggernaut reworks?

Totally unrelated with Mordekaiser , I swear it ;o

DeathBurstMay 11, 20162 votes

Here it is http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/lkYA6sYZ-followup-solo-lane-mordekaiser-update

DCYOUNG888May 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Here it is http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/lkYA6sYZ-followup-solo-lane-mordekaiser-update

Sorry, I meant status currently at the moment, or mid-season. But thanks.

DuckRaptorMay 19, 20166 votes

Investigate better tactical counterplay mechanisms for Judgment (E).

Garen E Judgment the damage spin As the damage sample level 6 spin x6 damage

hit all 20 damage instead (hit 1- 20, hit 2- 30, hit 3- 40, hit 4- 50, hit 5- 60) in the form of damage increase per rotation

ct play for It would be good opponent Garen E Judgment Dodge through exit ought he understands ✔

The Yetii RiderMay 11, 20165 votes

I think a lot of the problems that emerged from the juggernaut update was that you introduced high damage champs and said "kite them!" at the same time that you introduced am incredibly powerful, extremely efficient tank item that grants MS.

Do you think that the juggernauts would be healthier and not such a "numbers wise they are pick/ban or never seen" if you just removed Dead Man's Plate from the game?

RiotRiotRepertoirMay 12, 20168 votes

I do think Dead Man's Plate compromised the intended strength/weakness profile of Juggernauts. I don't know that everyone here feels the same, however.

bloodmothMay 12, 20162 votes

It gives a one shot opportunity to a juggernaught to engage on an enemy, without something like this, the juggernaught would lack any real form of agency in fights against ranged opponents.

Perhaps the effect reduction on CC should be removed for a delayed cease alltogether, for instance, if the juggernaught has been struck by a champion attack or spell, then dead mans plate speed boost will fall odd after 2s or something.

this still allows them to charge into the enemy team, but once they are in there they are stuck, and if the enemy successfully kites them for the first 2 sec then the juggernaughts will either have to suck it or try retreat...

VekknaMay 12, 20161 votes

He has a charge in his kit already for that exact purpose.

bloodmothMay 13, 20162 votes

Garen does, sure, and this helps his charge scale, also garen could afford to forgo this item for something else if he chooses to rely entirely on his Q.

But characters like illoalia and darius dont have any way to actually put themselves into a fight to begin with, gaving something that can help them participate i think is nearly essential, otherwise you end up just watching them slowly slog towards the teamfight while everyone else just sort of walks away. an item that forces conflict is a good thing.

BetweenSkillMay 12, 20163 votes

How do you feel juggernaut items have affected the game as a whole?

While the "damage for/while being tanky" work for juggernauts, many champions (melee carries and assassins mostly) have been able to abuse these items to great success.

The "juggernaut items" like item 3071 item 3053 item 3748 item 3742 etc are great for juggernauts, but they aren't in a vacuum. Was this intended? Or was it more of a woops didn't think those items would become so popular on squishy champions?

Keep doing the good work!

bloodmothMay 12, 20165 votes

I dont think i have seen black cleaver on too many other champs, but the other items have somewhat more obvious reasons

Steraks helps mitigate burst damage. Burst damage isnt something that tanky champs really worry about as they tend to have high health pools and resistances, squishies on the other hand, like every adc ever, would love something to help mitigate burst so that they have a chance to fight back.

If riot introduced a better defensive item for adcs that fit their profile better, say a buffed deaths dance that turns 50% of damage into a 3s dot, then they wouldnt want this item.

Titanic hydra was a good start for bruiser items, but they made a mistake by giving it an on hit effect. on hit effects essentially mean that high attack speed champs will use this item, so no surprise we see titanic yi and snootygirl... fiora. If riot decoupled this items strength from the attack speed multiplier, they could tune it to be satisfying on slow, heavy hitters but weaker on URF attack speed champs. Then we no longer have to worry about ass destroyer tank yi and shite.

and lastly dead mans plate, this item just helps melee champs engage and roam, having that map presense and engage just feel so good, and no champ doesnt want that. if there were other alternatives that werent mobi boots, then we might see it dropped, but its not surprising to see this item on more champs.

QuephaMay 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I do think Dead Man's Plate compromised the intended strength/weakness profile of Juggernauts. I don't know that everyone here feels the same, however.

I think juggernauts still feel really kitable even after they build a dead man's, slows are just so omnipresent in kits. If juggernauts really lacked the kitability weakness I think we'd start seeing them in high-tier play and I don't think that really happens.

TelosaMay 12, 20167 votes

No, I don't. The key problem behind Juggernaut is that they became essentially binary: either they get in range and kill you or you kite the juggernaut and they lose half their health bar before they even get to fight back. Juggernauts only really have two options: either they itemize for mobility (through items like item 3742 ) to get in range before they get kited to death or they itemize for slows (through items like item 3143 or item 3025 which help them stay on their target ) and rely on flashing to get in auto attack range. As a general rule, juggernauts don't have to itemize for these kinds of items immediately, but when it comes time for teamfights they either build them or die. You say that "Deadman's Plate (comprimises) the intended strength/weakness profile of Juggernauts" - I say that that Deadman's Plate and other such items are the only thing that kept them interesting to play and viable. You don't solve the issue by simply removing Deadman's Plate and making it next to impossible for Juggernauts to get in range; you do it by making Juggernauts less binary when they get in range and make them less reliant on buying mobility items to even stay playable.

WoonStruckMay 11, 20161 votes

[deleted]

DeathBurstMay 11, 201615 votes

W is still damage reduction (30%), it just lost its active tenacity in exchange for the passive armor/MR stacking.

And you don't need to be ahead to kill the Villain, you just need to not be completely shutdown. A Garen that went even in lane can still kill a carry that snowballed on another lane.

Finally, I disagree with your suggestion about reducing damage on non-villains. You want Villainy to add a bit of depth to Garen decision making, you don't want "I should always rush at the Villain and ignore everything else" to be the correct play in every situation. And if that was the right play all the time, the power budget in Villainy would need to be reduced to compensate for the added reliability.

WoonStruckMay 11, 20162 votes

You want Villainy to add a bit of depth to Garen decision making, you don't want "I should always rush at the Villain and ignore everything else" to be the correct play in every situation.

The problem with it currently is that it feels tacked on. It SHOULD be a decision point. What you're thinking of would only be the case if it were a significant reduction on both parts.

If he were to get bonuses against the villains, and penalties against non-villains, I couldn't see it being more than 5-10% on each part. Enough to make a difference, but not enough to force him into certain decisions. It simply allows him to access his passive in more scenarios.

That said, deleted previous post because it was misinformed.

DeathBurstMay 11, 201612 votes

Villainy IS a decision point currently, I can assure you. That is almost the only decision you have to take. Do you go for this beefier Villain first so that the mark can bounce on someone else, or do you really need to focus the squishies RIGHT NOW, because if you don't they'll just murder your team?

If that's the kind of decision you want, it's already the case, it's already "making a difference". The damage you deal against Villain versus non-Villains is already huge, if on top of that you also reduce it on the other end, there won't be any hesitation anymore. Also, more damage reduction for Garen isn't really helpful, because he is already tanky enough to do his job and a smart team shouldn't focus you first anyway, and if all your mates are already dead, damage reduction won't help you win 1v4. I don't remember the exact details of your suggestion since you deleted, so I can't point to specifics, but the general idea really seems counter-productive to me.