[FOLLOWUP] Garen Juggernaut Update

RiotRiotRepertoir·5/11/2016, 8:54:34 PM·1 votes·34,949 views

Hi everyone,

It's been awhile since Juggernauts have released, but we did want to publicize our current opinions on Garen following his update in the Juggernaut patch last year. In this, I'll go over what our original goals were, what we think is currently working, problems that may be worth addressing (as well as ones we accept as costs of the update), and future steps we might take on the champion (if any).

  • Original Goals
  • Solidify Garen as a Juggernaut:
    • Make him a meaningful damage threat throughout the game.
    • Improve his kitability for opponents.
  • Reduce presence and reputation as strictly a situational lane bully.
  • Make games with Garen in them feel different or "uniquely Garen."
  • Keep Garen accessible to newer players.
  • What's Working:
  • Increasing E spin speed with champion level makes his damage scale into the later parts of the game.
  • Villainy succeeds in making games with Garen in them feel unique/different.
  • The changes to Garen haven't compromised his accessibility to lesser skilled players.
  • Problems to Address:
  • Villainy sometimes feels like it ends up on odd targets.
  • Tactical counterplay (especially for melee opponents), is still quite poor against Garen.
  • Known Tradeoffs:
  • Villainy passive can feel tacked on, though not the worst offender of this.
  • Villainy system punishes an opponent for doing well.
  • W is even more boring of a button now than before.
  • Next Steps:
  • The next time we are in a position to do balance/cleanup work on Garen (which isn't something we're actively looking into):
    • Investigate ways to improve clarity on Villainy target selection for opponents. In an ideal world, a target would never become the Villain and not understand why.
    • Investigate better tactical counterplay mechanisms for Judgment (E).

I hope this helps to let everyone know where our heads are at on Garen, and again, sorry for taking sooooooo long to get this out there.

Cheers, Repertoir

179 Comments

DeathBurst5/11/2016, 9:56:39 PM16 votes

So as someone who started maining Garen a month or 2 before the rework and who has continued since then...

  • I really feel like I'm much more kite-able, the Tenacity lost on W is really making a difference.And yes, it's desperately boring now.
  • But I also really feel like my damage late game is much better than before.

So good job on that.

Regarding Villainy, people at my ELO (high silver) veeeeery often don't respect it. Every few games, there is a carry that snowballed on mid+bot while I was alone Top, then we group and I one-combo them and they start complaining in /all chat. They don't understand what being the Villain actually means. On the other hand, even if you do understand what it means to be Villain, there isn't a lot of things you can do about it, except kiting, which is always a good idea anyway, even if you are not the Villain. The lack of "tactical counterplay" isn't so much an issue with the E, imho, than an issue with the Villain passive. All in all, as the Garen player, I enjoy this passive quite a bit, but I understand that it can generate a lot of frustration.

Regarding Villainy selection: I do agree that there are a few odd cases, like a support becoming the villain for a short period of time due to one double kill a few minutes ago when at the same time the midlaner has 15 kills and counting. But they are not so common, and not really problematic. More importantly, I think that before any work on the selection though, you need to define precisely the objective of Villainy. Who do you want Garen to be strong against? The highest performing player? The biggest source of damage? The most ahead opponent? I don't really know, I have this vague idea that if someone is doing well I need to shut them down, but I don't really understand what was your gameplay goal with this passive, even if it works wonder from a thematic stand-point.

Regarding the E, there is one easy way to add counterplay: making it a channeled ability interrupted by CC. But of course, that would be a HUGE nerf, and a loss of specificity (Garen is a good counter against anyone with a stun/blind), and I don't think it would be a good idea at all. But on a higher level, does this ability really need counterplay specifically? Unless you are the Villain, Garen damage is not so overbearing, and this is an ability dealing damage over a relatively long duration, it's not as if it was an easy way to burst a squishy or whatever.

ShadowMark5/13/2016, 1:39:35 PM10 votes

Garen no armor pen no %healt damage, R rexcluding opponent lane vs item 1031 oritem 3068 receives garen damage seriously reduced is happening My advice %healt damage or villian damage %1.5 or %2 buff Garen vs All tank item 3068 garen 0 damage... including garen low damage, damage buff must 1v1 fiora true damage darius armor pen bonus ad damage,renekton anger bonus damage armor pen damage,voli ad ap damage,jax ap ad damage,olaf true damage,ırelia true damage,ekko,fizz %healt damage garen Only physical damage item 1031 this item garen damage is 0 garen lane 1 v 1 villian true bot lane Lucian marked opponent target ourselves If you could choose 1 v 1 he balanced could Garen Other top lane champions compared It remains seriously weak Garen buff please... Ekko Fizz vsGaren Garen lose because Fizz Ekko %healt damage have moreover much more movement speed have Garen cumbersome

ShadowMark5/14/2016, 3:40:27 PM7 votes

Problems to Address:

Villainy sometimes feels like it ends up on odd targets.
Tactical counterplay (especially for melee opponents), is still quite poor against Garen.

yes really troubles Garen 1 vs 1 powerless teamfight as a preservative

My other suggestion R villian true damage (level 6 %1.0) (level 11 %1.5) (level 16 %2)

and villain, against garen 20% less damage to the gives.

Investigate better tactical counterplay mechanisms for Judgment (E).

My advice remove critical damage add %healt damage and high elo ranked %0 is played critical damage garen useless

or remove garen healt regen passive useless mid and late game add fury mechanic

DCYOUNG8885/11/2016, 9:34:56 PM7 votes

@RiotRepertoir, just curious, how often is item 3748 titanic hydra used for juggernauts (e.g. Garen garen, Skarner skarner, Darius darius, Nasus nasus, Illaoi illaoi, etc.) or other beefy champions. Lately I have not been seeing as many juggernauts or other use this item as much anymore and the titanic hydra was originally meant for juggernauts. I understand that there were issues previously with Fiora fiora, MasterYi yi, and Akali akali with abusing the titanic hydra but is there a way to make it more favorable to juggernauts in terms of stats (including AD)? Also how is Mordekaiser mordekaiser's status right now in the mid-season? Sorry that the message is long btw.

ShadowMark5/15/2016, 4:33:13 PM7 votes

Garen capabilities control automatic R villain automatic, passive healt regen automatic, e judgment automatic, ct play in order to do No chance.. Villain high damage Preferred not, Darius He can focus on the person wants fiora R passive,trundle R likewise garen as villain support R we shoot ? , also garen villain damage %1 insufficient is I'm thinking..

DuckRaptor5/19/2016, 7:46:52 AM6 votes

Investigate better tactical counterplay mechanisms for Judgment (E).

Garen E Judgment the damage spin As the damage sample level 6 spin x6 damage

hit all 20 damage instead (hit 1- 20, hit 2- 30, hit 3- 40, hit 4- 50, hit 5- 60) in the form of damage increase per rotation

ct play for It would be good opponent Garen E Judgment Dodge through exit ought he understands ✔

SkyblazeHydraX35/11/2016, 9:31:55 PM6 votes

Tactical counterplay (especially for melee opponents), is still quite poor against Garen.

PRAISE THE LORD FOR RIOT HAS SPOKEN

Seriously, playing against Garen as melee anything is a goddamn pain in the ass, because he can freely silence you then just butcher you. And because you HAVE to be in his range in order to deal your damage, there is nothing you can do about it.

Stars Shaper5/11/2016, 9:39:51 PM6 votes

Sorry to be "that guy" but... Are you doing these posts for all the Juggernaut reworks?

Totally unrelated with Mordekaiser, I swear it ;o

The Yetii Rider5/11/2016, 10:35:11 PM5 votes

I think a lot of the problems that emerged from the juggernaut update was that you introduced high damage champs and said "kite them!" at the same time that you introduced am incredibly powerful, extremely efficient tank item that grants MS.

Do you think that the juggernauts would be healthier and not such a "numbers wise they are pick/ban or never seen" if you just removed Dead Man's Plate from the game?

WoonStruck5/11/2016, 9:05:29 PM1 votes

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