Champion Weaknesses in 2019

RiotRiot Scruffy·2/6/2019, 5:56:58 PM·1 votes·195,593 views

Hey all, Lead Gameplay Designer RiotScruffy here. I thought it would be a good idea to reflect a bit on a highly discussed topic in both the community and our design department in 2018: champions with “no weaknesses” or “overloaded.” So the first question is what do we really mean by “no weaknesses?” Many people have different interpretations so I’d like to define how we’ve been thinking about this problem and how we hope to avoid it more consistently in the future.

Definition of the problem insufficient weaknesses -> when a champion played optimally invalidates options for their opponents to proactively beat them or defend against their attacks, effectively leaving them with no clear vulnerability.

We have had a number of champions that have crossed this line over the years (Leblanc, Vladimir, Azir) and some recent examples (Irelia, Aatrox, Akali).

As part of our discussions, we’ve been categorizing common causes of no weaknesses, which tends to happen when a champion is overloaded with too many strengths. Generally most champions in the game should have 1-2 of these powerful tools but when you start having many more it means there's not much you're weak at:

  • Powerful reactive defenses (big shields, invulnerability, untargetability)
  • Very short windows of downtime (short cooldowns, spells you can hold for reactive plays while still being highly effective, ammo)
  • Many abilities with low or no cast times
  • Very strong waveclear or wave control
  • Fallbacks cover weaknesses too well - for example a “weak laning phase” champion that has tools to farm perfectly from afar
  • Mobility tools that don't have cast or target restrictions
  • Wall crossing abilities
  • Very high dash speeds
  • Range advantages
  • No early game counter matchups
  • Flex pick ability to avoid counters (matters particularly in pro play)

For all new champs and VGUs from now on, the goal is: A champion has clear moments of vulnerability and is generally weak to a significant number of champions (roughly 20+) or a common mechanic (like hard CC).

Some good examples:

  • Darius is really scary in melee range but he still remains kiteable by most ranged champions
  • Blitzcrank can win a game with a single god hand hook but he is very vulnerable to poke and has a lot of downtime
  • Kayn is a flexible assassin type champ but his tools let enemies have some warning and allows him to be slippery but not have an out for every situation
  • Jhin seems to have some serious abilities beyond the average marksman (range, CC) but he is still obliterated by a large swath of mobile aggressors

We are integrating this new goal at the core of our future development but not everything always goes exactly how we hope it will. To better react to these types of issues if they come up in the future, we’ve added a few additional processes:

  1. Roughly 6 weeks after a new champion or big update we are dedicating some additional time to evaluate how it all landed and make mechanical changes (not just balance) if we see this or other problems. If we fail to fix a problem even after this we will have to try again with more significant changes.
  2. When we do see signs that this is the case (win rate increases dramatically with MMR, high pro presence with very low win rate in solo queue, no counter matchups) we will react first with an attempt to open up a weakness instead of reducing overall power and ending up with the same problems still present.

We recently took a few swings at fixing the lack of weakness issues on champions where we think we went too far (note this is all stuff we have already done). Mechanics changes can be a bit disruptive, so in the short term these champs might be out of balance, but we will follow up with power and numbers tuning to bring them back. A quick summary of what we hoped to achieve:

  • Akali - opening up more time to respond by slowing down stealth time, making her more weak to poke in lane, and opening up more areas of safety for enemies under tower
  • Irelia - We want to maintain her high mobility and aggression potential while opening up vulnerability to magic damage and reducing her team fight utility
  • Ornn - Low-cooldown defenses on his shield were giving him too much safety and reliability in lane matchups and ganks
  • Aatrox - High sustain kept him consistently healthy and the 2 charge dash model allowed him to sit on one charge for an escape most of the time and also let him remove the Q dodgeability too frequently

We’ve had good success with pulling out a bit of versatility and rebalancing with more direct power in the past. To be clear this doesn’t mean removing all frustration, just creating clear openings for playing against these champs.

  • Zed - used to leave too little room for opponent responses but the addition of R reactivation delay and slowing down living shadow speed made him a much healthier and still extremely fun champ
  • Kassadin - the removal his Q silence and maintaining a weak laning phase created a better counterbalance for his late game power curve

I’m very proud of the work we did in 2018 but we’re aiming this year to tighten up our consistency on making sure every champ has real weaknesses as we continue to deliver exciting and skillful new champions and champion updates.

Scruffy

https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/9.2.1/img/champion/Sion.png

479 Comments

Ęvelynn2/6/2019, 6:09:38 PM199 votes

yasuo literally has 5 of the things on that "insufficient weaknesses" list but he kept all of them....really?

GE0RGEBUSHDID9112/6/2019, 6:15:17 PM113 votes

Sounds a lot like Yasuo to me. Super overloaded kit. His only weakness is bad players trying to play him

Kadexe2/6/2019, 6:22:26 PM69 votes

Alright, I'll touch the elephant in the room - how does Yasuo look, from this perspective? He ticks off a lot of boxes on that list you wrote.

shabingi2/6/2019, 6:29:05 PM41 votes

does this apply to future certainlyT champions since almost all of his are some of the worst offenders?

TheStormSurge2/6/2019, 6:01:28 PM41 votes

All of Anivias game-play pre 20 minutes... Immobile, Mana issues, lowest base health in game, the list goes on.

Dope Solo2/6/2019, 7:17:56 PM38 votes

Notably, Yasuo seems impervious to developer mention, much less actual discussion or consideration.

J Eevo2/6/2019, 7:03:27 PM28 votes

Can I also just mention one thing that I noticed that I wanted to bring to your attention?

The design team underutilizes silence and overuses the hell out of knockups. Especially evident with knockups as most new champions seem to have one which is especially annoying because you can't counteract them with tenacity/qss (lack of counterplay), and silence gets rarely used, which is sad as it's the one source of CC that still allows the target to dodge skillshots and kite.

I do like the grounded and disarm effect, hope to see more of those in the future, but why not use silence too?

KVbqbFsC8e2/6/2019, 9:15:15 PM27 votes

You cannot allow CertainlyT to design champions anymore if you are really going to go through with this.

ModThe Djinn2/6/2019, 6:57:24 PM27 votes

Curious if you can share your thoughts on the following as they relate to this. Note that I've selected these without concern for their current balance, but more for how many of the above they match up to.

  • **Vladimir **-- Wave control, sustain, harass, powerful defensive cooldowns, low cooldowns, minor mid flex.
  • Jayce -- Low cooldowns, decent clear, mana retention, harass, range advantage, some flex potential, knock-back and speed as an escape.
  • Lee Sin -- Fast cast times, low cooldowns, soft CC, shielding, healing, multiple dashes through walls with rather soft targeting restrictions.
  • Maokai -- Healing, CC, low Q cooldown, ranged harass, untargetability (albeit highly limited)
  • Kha'Zix -- Low cast times, untargeted mobility, healing, stealth, strong early game.

I'm basically curious because I see a lot of kits surpassing the 1-2 mark and coming closer to the 3-4 mark, and I wonder what your thoughts on that are.

FOR JUSTICE2/6/2019, 6:11:21 PM25 votes

First

also wouldnt lucian actually fit into the list?

his only forseeable weakness i can see is him oom'ing himself, and the only thing i can see he would be missing is waveclear. same with ezreal. you cant exactly counterpick lucian because he's stronger then the majority of botlane picks right now tbh, and you cant really get close enough to ezreal to punish anything because once he gets under half, he can just farm with q.

BigFBear2/6/2019, 6:16:50 PM21 votes

Hey Scruffy

As a huge Voli fan with over 2 million mastery points on him i think he needs a tiny bit more love at 3 specific things after that E Buff.


#1) Could you take a look at his Passive?

Voli has a lack of durability during (team) fights. One reason is that his passive is just too weak to work properly because it has never been adjusted to the rising dmg (and Tank Item HP nerfs) over the last seasons. You often die before it could even go half it's duration. One solution could be to let it reg faster. Maybe 5 or 4 seconds instead of 6. Could be too strong in early laning phase; so maybe it could scale 6/5/4 seconds with Ulti upgrades. Also/Or you could make it work with the Resolve Rune "Revitalize" (currently not happening because Reg not Heal). That would give Voli a bit more options in the Resolve tree while buffing the Passive a bit.


#2) Is there any chance to make W a bit more rewarding vs tanky champs?

Voli's W has always felt unsatisfying vs tanky champs. Often you can't even finish them when they are VERY low HP. That's pretty disappointing for such a long CD ability. I know his new E 8% Dmg buff is for dealing better against Tanks, but his E shouldn't be stronger than his W in any case imo. Now it feels even more like a hot fart in comparison, considering that it has 18(!) sec CD and should feel like an "execute". Better lower the 8% E dmg buff but for that give his W a CD reduction per upgrade and more dmg vs Tanks, so it remains his main dmg ability.


#3) Are there any plans to make Voli's Ult castable while moving?

Voli is easy kitable and has problems to stick to his target. It feels really clunky and outdated if you chase someone but have to stop to cast your melee Ult. It's just a little improvement and wouldn't affect his winrate at all, i guess, but it would make him less tilting to play in some situations.


I don't think that this would make his winrate go up but make him a bit more comfortable and fairer to play. Also keep in mind that an unpopular champ with 2% pickrate (1% in Jungle) is only played by hardcore fans and otp's; so his winrate is a bit better as it would be since he is only played by players who are very experienced with him.

TheEndlessRiver2/6/2019, 6:17:27 PM20 votes

For all new champs and VGUs from now on, the goal is: A champion has clear moments of vulnerability and is generally weak to a significant number of champions (roughly 20+) or a common mechanic (like hard CC).

Why has that not been a goal since the beginning?

smexxyhex2/6/2019, 9:24:42 PM19 votes

Meanwhile ... laughs in Yasuo

PrinceOfStorms2/7/2019, 5:18:52 AM18 votes

Why did you guys buff Vayne then? She has the following:

  • Powerful Active Defense (during R she's invisible more often than not)

  • Abilities with low or no cast times (Vayne has no appreciable cast times)

  • Fallbacks cover weaknesses too well - she "has a weak laning phase" but W max with Hail of Blades basically makes her into a lane bully.

  • Very high dash speeds (Tumble)

  • Mobility tools that don't have target restrictions (Tumble again)

  • Extremely short/no downtime - If she has R up (which doesn't have a long CD to begin with) she might as well not have a CD on her mobility tool which doubles as a defensive tool during R, and you can't run from her during her R because she gets a huge MS buff.

  • Inability to itemize against her (%max true damage)

At the very least she needs her most recent buff reverted. but she really needs to be thrown in the balance trash can of bad design.

Lord Sesshomaru2/7/2019, 7:54:59 AM14 votes

That moment when they consider Zed a success.....

Jabalor2/6/2019, 6:08:23 PM14 votes

So once again, balance will revolve around pro play hmm?

SAMASAL2/7/2019, 12:06:42 AM14 votes

Definition of the problem insufficient weaknesses -> Yasuo.

Stop trying to hide the elephant in the room, Yasuo is the most banned champion in the history of LOL, when is he getting Akalied?

Ralik0982/6/2019, 10:23:18 PM13 votes

Revert Irelia and Akali, the old versions were better for EVERYONE. They were reasonable to play against while still being fun to play.

The changes you made to Irelia and Akali this patch made them both straight trash to play as. The five stack passive is awful to play with now and is too difficult to even trigger full stacks.

Link to ICU talking about how he feels about the passive changes: https://twitter.com/IreliaCarriesU/status/1093239320155086848 https://twitter.com/IreliaCarriesU/status/1093234221584310272

The W change is awful. Irelia used to have HIGHER damage reduction than what is even on live against both forms of damage. Even with this she was still terrible to lane against top lane ad bruisers. The changes you made to this skill are worthless and make it a useless skill.

As for Akali, you reworked her to be focused around her shroud and then changed it to be clunky as well. Then you removed her Q healing, which without it she won't be able to lane against many ranged matchups.

You're sitting here talking about how you are going to make sub 45% winrate champions weaker... this is insane. You are making these champions unplayable.

ProfDrDeath2/6/2019, 7:01:11 PM11 votes

Hmm. Nice food for thought:


Applying the categories to my favourite champion: Quinn

  • Powerful reactive defenses: n/a
  • Very short windows of downtime: Yes. Only two combat spells with short CDs (12-8 seconds).
  • Many abilities with low or no cast times: Not really. Q has a cast time that requires stopping, and E has its animation. R is a short channel, but R2 is pretty much instant - although rather low impact on its own.
  • Very strong waveclear or wave control: No. Q is ok for that, but far from outstanding.
  • Fallbacks cover weaknesses too well: Not really. Seems sometimes more like the other way around - Quinn has few good fallbacks if she falls behind early.
  • Mobility tools that don't have cast or target restrictions: No. E requires a target and positions you relative to that target.
  • Wall crossing abilities: Yes, but rather limited - tied in with the point above.
  • Very high dash speeds: No. E is decently fast, but not outstanding.
  • Range advantages: Yes and no. Definitely has a big advantage over melees, but her range is low compared to other ranged champions.
  • No early game counter matchups: Depends on the champion pool. There are quite a few champions she struggles against, but players who favour a lot of melee champions will probably have few of them in their pool.
  • Flex pick ability to avoid counters (matters particularly in pro play): In theory, yes. In her few competitive appearances, Quinn has been played in (and won in) all three lanes and the jungle.

Hmm, overall, she seems to be within limits to me. There is only one really outstanding point in the lack of downtime.

IG Ziko2/6/2019, 6:11:07 PM11 votes

This is a Reddit post from a D3 player that doesn't mind if u use his ideas. Would u please consider reading it?


So, Zyra, one of my favourite champions in tje game, has some balance problems in SoloQ. And she also has the problem for not being a good midlaner. Many of Zyra players want to play her in mid, like myself, while many other want her to remain a good support. I have some suggestions to help her out in both without making her oppressive.

So what are Zyra's balance problems to start with:

  • Planets zoning control and poke damage even if Zyra misses abilities.
  • On the other sides planets late game die to anything and hence he damage falls off so hard.
  • Strong early and mid game duo to good base damages and low cooldown on her Q.
  • On the other side her late game has another problem in her low AP scaling. Her 2 damaging abilities have 50% and 60% AP scaling.

So after a lot of effort, I tried to come up with some changes to help her and make her a better champion that rewards more skilled players (Note: u don't all there r not meant to be applied together. If Riot considers this, they may take as many points as they wish)

1st Path-> Reducing planets damage significantly from (20-100)+ 15% AP to (15-75)+ 12% AP and adding a new passive. Hitting an enemy with an ability marks them for 2 seconds. Marked enemies take 50 bonus damage from planets. This will get rid of the problem she does so much damage even when missing and reward players who hit skill shot with little more damage.

2nd Path-> Giving her ult a new passive. Newly respawned planets r untargetable for 0.5/1.25/2 seconds. This will solve the problem of planets evaporating late game duo to any form if damage while untouching her levels 1-5 (level 6-10 half a second won't be problematic as well). Consider that Zyra late game is so bad because she has no form of peeling/protecting and without damage she is nothing.

3rd Path-> Making her scale like a reasonable mage. Reducing her base damages on Q and E to end at 160 and 180 base damage at max ability level. Increasing the AP scaling from 60% and 50% to 70% each. That will hit hard when behind with little gold and AP while rewarding players who got lead into the mid/late game.

4th Path-> Increasing base health from 504-1847 based on level to 520-2050. Reducing base armor to 23. This is a huge early nerf that will make her much more vulnerable to ADCs autos, AD midlaners damage and menions aggro. One the other side she will finally have the regular base HP of a squishy champion into the late game (most squishy ADCs and Mages have 2000-2120 base HP at level 18).

I really wish some one at Riot actually considers these. I feel like applying some of these changes can solve most of her problems while making her more rewarding for hitting your skillshots.

I really wish u accept some of the community suggestions if they actually make sense.

ZeroSixTeen2/7/2019, 4:29:29 PM11 votes

Haha, so now hard cc is viable to be a champs only weakness? Every champ is weak to hard cc. Being weak to hard cc is not champion specific, and its not a weakness, its a strong mechanic in the game. Also you think Jhin is in a good place because if he is matched against renekton he looses? All marksmen loose to mobile melee bruisers, Jhin is 99% played versus other marksmen though. But its only 99%, why would that be a factor to care about? You cant think so simply about weaknesses as you do here. The game needs to be focused on the compromises a player makes. You build a tanky item to get tanky, OR you build a damage item to get damage, if you want both you get less value. This would be clear tradeoffs that would immediately give every champ a clear strenght, and also a clear weakness. Unfortunately you make bruisers that build black cleaver and 4 tank items that can deal 2K damage on a single rotation. At the same time they have 4K health and tones of resistances. This would only be okay on champs that have no cc AND no mobility, as they will destroy anyone they can get their hands on, so it needs to be really really hard to get their hands on anyone. Introduce compromise to every champion. Get rid of tank/off tank/assassins this is not a healthy type of champ. Also get rid of abilities that are like yasuo passive, its super strong, to the point that its stronger than many normal abilities of other champs, and its just there to constantly give you exactly what you need all the time.

Also Pyke passive needs to be removed, completely. He is an "all-in" champ, that means unless you have a champ that is better at all-in(literally need to play a midlane assassin) you have to play around him by poking him out and never letting him have the all-in he wants. The passive you gave him lets him automatically completely negate that counter strategy against him. That now leaves you with one choice; NEVER even interact with him(essentially dont play). Then you gave him hook, stealth AND mobility so he can force fights anyway. See how you have eliminated every single playstyle against him? So you nerf his numbers until he is at about 50% winrate. Do you see how this creates that same kind of game that old Zoe did? you make ONE misstep and you are dead, and you are pretty much guaranteed to loose the game. If you get though laning while playing insanely passively and dont make any huge mistakes he is utterly useless and Pyke is now the one that is guaranteed to loose the game. Now you can be happy that you had a 30 minute boring game where nothing happened and you won later because their support is useless. you say you are actively working on this part of the game but its by far the worst part of league, and overloaded champs are everywhere, actually it seems that with time this problem actually grows and you make more and more un-counterable champs.

I say it again, start forcing players to make compromises. Do I want to deal damage OR do I want to survive for longer? Do I deal little damage many times OR do I deal a lot of damage once? You have to make clear lines between this, so that you cant be the best of both worlds. Bruisers are like this, they get the best of both worlds. A carry that builds dead mans plate will deal considerably less damage. The same is not true for bruisers, at all.

20InchDarkinDong2/6/2019, 6:11:35 PM10 votes

The Problem with Aatrox is, that in paper, you guys want him to be a Juggernaut, when he just doesn't have tools to become one. Over the top, absolutely disgusting Bonus AD scaling on Q (450% on third Q if i remember correctly), and he gains defense (healing) by building glass canon. One of the only thing that Old Aatrox actually did right, is that his healing was based around his %Missing Health, rather than his AD. Make his Q Max AD scaled but lower the ratios to a fair ammount, and make his heal %Missing Health based again, so he has a reason to buy tank items, unlike now, where even 1 tank item delays his damage output by a large, thanks to his Bonus AD scaling again. With Max AD scaling on Q, and %Missing Health on E, he can take an item path of a Juggernaut with Cleaver/Sterak into tank items. He's much tankier, but can't oneshot a carry with a single Q+E rotation

Skeletons Grave2/7/2019, 12:02:09 AM10 votes

So while Yasuo is getting alot of attention, im thinking about Riven

Heres the list again for you to read thinking about riven.

Powerful reactive defenses (big shields, invulnerability, untargetability) Very short windows of downtime (short cooldowns, spells you can hold for reactive plays while still being highly effective, ammo) Many abilities with low or no cast times Very strong waveclear or wave control Fallbacks cover weaknesses too well - for example a “weak laning phase” champion that has tools to farm perfectly from afar Mobility tools that don't have cast or target restrictions Wall crossing abilities Very high dash speeds Range advantages No early game counter matchups Flex pick ability to avoid counters (matters particularly in pro play)

You can add this this list 1- defensive abilities that scale with offense 2-little or no cost to abilities 3-Having bad combinations of abilities such as: burst + mobility. cc+ burst. low cd's +burst.
So a short cooldown, manaless champion, with high mobility, burst, cc, and a ranged execute, plus ad empowered shield= definition of overloaded.

She also gets better the higher elo you go which is something riot usually scrutinizes highly

Valor Bot2/6/2019, 8:13:25 PM9 votes

Zed - used to leave too little room for opponent responses but the addition of R reactivation delay and slowing down living shadow speed made him a much healthier and still extremely fun champ

What exactly is the counterplay to Zed, outside of specific items and champion choices? If the Zed plays optimally (as mentioned in your post), he leaves almost no options for the enemy to respond to him, ESPECIALLY if the enemy in question is immobile as that gives them next to no chance to out-play his all-in.

Poolparty Sauron2/6/2019, 6:16:06 PM9 votes

I fail to see how Aatrox doesnt already have well defined weaknesses: -kitable -the squishiest juggernaut besides Mord(who is getting VGU-d into an actual juggernaut) -an increadibly basic kit outside of Q -weakness to being jumped on (SWORDS DONT WORK THE WAY HIS Q WORKS INGAME BTW) -no answear to armour stacking -limited mobility(even more so now) -W is extremly easy to just walk out of

Thats not even going into the low quality of his animations,his numerous animation bugs which havent been fixed SINCE LAUNCH(walking loop bug anyone), his freezing autos, his literal missing joke animation and a recyled dance animation which causes serious clipping issues.

GigglesO2/7/2019, 8:22:45 PM7 votes

So when are we looking at zoe?

{quoted}

Generally most champions in the game should have 1-2 of these powerful tools but when you start having many more it means there's not much you're weak at:

  • Powerful reactive defenses (big shields, invulnerability, untargetability)
  • Very short windows of downtime (short cooldowns, spells you can hold for reactive plays while still being highly effective, ammo)

She has downtime?

  • Many abilities with low or no cast times

She has no real q cd or mana cost

  • Very strong waveclear or wave control

Her Q splashes clearing waves like crazy

  • Mobility tools that don't have cast or target restrictions

Her movement speed on summoner spells is a little to prolific.

  • Wall crossing abilities
  • Very high dash speeds
  • Range advantages

Has all of those even if they are snap backs.

  • No early game counter matchups

Who the fuck counters her?

WILDCASABLANCA2/7/2019, 1:43:58 PM2 votes

Pyke Issues he had/has: Aftershock. Too strong against squishies and too weak against tanks (super polarizing, not comparable to other assassins because squishies very literally can't do shit and counterplay shouldn't be playing tank adcs)

"Fixes": Mana costs made extremely low to remove his only throttle, mana costs (why) Then absolutely gutted in solo lanes to make him unplayable (Tiamat nerf and Q waveclear nerf in same patch, R damage nerfed, forced early lethality, mr nerfed, dark harvest reworked into shit)

Gets forced to build specific items or have skills do nothing These items make you useless against resists

Result: Becomes an even more polarizing champion and disabled from playing solo lane because you guys don't want to balance it His carry playstyle unplayable with the changes unless enemy picks 5 squishies Only works as support Made MORE polarizing, so even more frustrating to play against as any squishy champ (good job)

Thanks, I had a good run one tricking him as a carry mid for 500 games last season while everyone abused tank pyke. Lower player count playstyles get punished as always even though it was the intended style of the champion. I guess I should have mained tank pyke like the others, I specifically didn't because I trusted you guys to remove the tank pyke problem without harming carry pykes.

Looks like Lissandra is joining the "get fucked to keep Aftershock in the game" club, but she'll eventually get fixed since she's a traditional mid laner. Pyke on the other hand is gonna stay unmainable for solo lane so I'm staying out of this game as I have for the last many months. Enjoy uncompetitive ranked by the way, it's amazing how you guys constantly fuck major things and then ignore proper solutions for months if not the entire season.