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Patch Chat 6.10 - Taliyah, The Stoneweaver and Mage Update Cleanup

RiotSkarnye West··1 votes·112,021 views

Hey all,

Welcome back to Patch Chat! We’re Riot’s Playtest Team, a group of high ranking League players whose job it is to play the hell out of things (lane tests, competitive testing, etc) and give actionable, objective feedback to designers.

Every two weeks - concurrent with the release of patch notes - we’re going to be hosting a discussion here on the state of balance on the current patch. Take this opportunity to ask us any questions about the state of the game.

This patch sees the release of Taliyah, and Blake Soberanis (primary playtester of Taliyah) will be fielding questions about her. For in-game footage of Blake on The Stoneweaver, check out the VOD from our recent PBE stream!

Blake “Sobe” Soberanis

Taliyah is one of my favorite champions because she’s easy to pick up but difficult to master (I always feel like I learn a new way to play Taliyah each time I play the champ).

She has some very high base damage and ratios, particularly on the Q; its high damage and low cooldown is scary, and is only gated by exhausted ground. This makes roaming on her extra satisfying; you get more damage because you won’t have been exhausting ground in bot lane.

Taliyahs that get ahead can use the extra AP they have to snowball extra hard, but Taliyahs that fall behind will tend to suffer more than usual. It’s probably not super likely that Taliyah will get solo kills in most matchups, so to get the AP she needs to make an impact, she’s going to have to make plays around the map.

Also, Patch 6.9 shook up the game massively with new items, champion reworks, and systemic changes. With so much new in the game, there will be consequences falling out for weeks to come. This patch has been our chance to see how 6.9 played out and adjust slightly. Feel free to leave any questions about the Mage Update or the 6.10 followup patch in the comments below!

What do you think about Taliyah? Curious what it’s like to work as a Riot playtester? Maybe some questions about Patch 6.10 as a whole? As usual, feel free to ask any questions about balance or what exactly our job is! We will be around for the next few hours and will try to answer as many questions as possible.

Adam "Afic" Cohen Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie Miles “Daydreamin” Hoard Bao “Bao” Lam Mattias “Gentleman Gustaf” Lehman Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “Sobe” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes

298 Comments

L0ve Is Blue19 votes

Why did you guys decide to push mages towards flat mana?

I don't know if I'm the only one, but for me it feels terrible because all of the items give around 400 mana, wich is not a lot for a mage. The only way I can enjoy playing a mage is by getting 2 or 3 dorans so I have mana regen. Getting flat mana early on just feels horrible and restrains you a lot, especialy in a meta where ressourceless champions like Yasuo Zed or assassins that dont get mana anyway Fizz are thrilling in the mid lane and you are just standing there with your innexistant sustain against those hyper mobile opponents...

To be honest i wouldnt mind Morello losing its 20 AP buff if it had more mana sustain because 400 flat mana feels very lacking compared to the 100% mana regen it offered.

Reavelock5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qNczTVI1,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-17T19:04:39.271+0000)

I don't know if I'm the only one, but for me it feels terrible because all of the items give around 400 mana, wich is not a lot for a mage. The only way I can enjoy playing a mage is by getting 2 or 3 dorans so I have mana regen. Getting flat mana early on just feels horrible and restrains you a lot, especialy in a meta where ressourceless champions like Yasuo Zed or assassins that dont get mana anyway Fizz are thrilling in the mid lane and you are just standing there with your innexistant sustain against those hyper mobile opponents...

100% agree

Myrmaster7 votes

Flat mana feels terrible as a Lux main. Especially when it's so easy for popular mid champions to dodge the spells I spend it on. Letting mana-less champions remain dominant while simultaneously making this change just feels like an insult.

Zackeryss5 votes

Especially with the fact that they can build MR to counter your poke while you build mana to even HAVE poke at all. I do love the new item 3070, but its not nearly as good as being Zed or Yasuo.

PhrozonPhoenix4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qNczTVI1,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-17T19:04:39.271+0000)

Why did you guys decide to push mages towards flat mana?

I don't know if I'm the only one, but for me it feels terrible because all of the items give around 400 mana, wich is not a lot for a mage. The only way I can enjoy playing a mage is by getting 2 or 3 dorans so I have mana regen. Getting flat mana early on just feels horrible and restrains you a lot, especialy in a meta where ressourceless champions like Yasuo Zed or assassins that dont get mana anyway Fizz are thrilling in the mid lane and you are just standing there with your innexistant sustain against those hyper mobile opponents...

To be honest i wouldnt mind Morello losing its 20 AP buff if it had more mana sustain because 400 flat mana feels very lacking compared to the 100% mana regen it offered.

I actually noticed an excess of mana with rod of ages, or morello, Mainly because I enjoy skirmishes alot, so with kills/assists and damage taken, I'm never actually out of mana, these items just seem to match a different play style than the traditional "mage in the back blowing crap up without actually fighting"

Dessem17 votes

You specified in Fizz's description that you kept a close eye on ults buffed by QSS's nerf, like Zed's Deathmark. As-is, Zed is still banned in most games, but how has it looked thus far in situations where he wasn't banned?

RiotRiot ThEntropist14 votes

I would just like to preface this by stating that these are my opinions..

Zed did not see a significant increase in winrate by the qss changes. His ban rate has remained high which leads me to believe players simply feel he is more frustrating to play against because they have less options, instead of him actually being in an overpowered state.

I see 4 options:

  1. Leave Zed as is, see if players adapt to this new game state

  2. Look to change up Zed's kit and find ways to lower frustration(add counterplay) while attempting to keep his power somewhat neutral

  3. Lower the champions winrate so much that he is so weak that he is no longer frustrating to play against

  4. Revert the changes, which would affect a lot more than just Zed

Overall seems to be a perception problem instead of ~~an actual balance ~~ a power imbalance concern. That doesn't mean it isn't being looked at.

Quepha16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qNczTVI1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-05-17T19:43:58.721+0000)

  1. Lower the champions winrate so much that he is so weak that he is no longer frustrating to play against

Do eeeet

Dessem7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qNczTVI1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-05-17T19:43:58.721+0000)

Overall seems to be a perception problem instead of an actual balance concern. That doesn't mean it isn't being looked at.

Would be nice to see something changed about Zed. I do admit I'm in the camp of those frustrated with Zed (a Manaless champion was keeping up with Viktor's waveclear effortlessly, despite Viktor being able to E nearly an entire wave into oblivion), but partially because of that frustration I was interested in how he currently looks balance-wise.

Thanks for the response. I am kind of surprised the QSS change hasn't affected Zed a whole lot, though it could just mean that QSS was already insufficient counterplay to his ult.

RiotRiot ThEntropist6 votes

Yeah I agree, there does seem to be a need to change him in some way. He is currently being worked on by the live balance team.

bluefrosst4 votes

@Elphege it was moreso players (most likely low ELO where people follow cookie-cutter builds and do not situationally itemize)were not buying early QSS in the first place. Also, with Zed, it would be best to take some power off of his ultimate and redistribute it to his basic spells.

Example:

  • Death Mark pop reduced to ONLY 25%/35%/45% of damage applied (removing the 100% AD ratio).

  • Razor Shuriken damage reduced for ONE shuriken, but an increase in damage from landing MULTIPLE Razor Shurikens (remove the 50% damage reduction from landing multiple shurikens).

  • Make landing multiple Shadow Slashes deal increased damage much like Razor Shuriken

Of course these are kind of cursory ideas, actual numbers may need tweaking and whatnot. However, the overall goal is to nerf the FOTM/bandwagon Zed player while either not affecting or buffing a skilled Zed main.

Zed is supposed to be mechanically complex and demanding. Let's make it so. I want to play my Zed again.

RiotRiot ThEntropist7 votes

Razor Shuriken damage reduced for ONE shuriken, but an increase in damage from landing MULTIPLE Razor Shurikens (remove the 50% damage reduction from landing multiple shurikens).

I tend to agree. These are the types of changes I am pushing for. Although can't promise this is where we will end up.

Stars Shaper5 votes

I'm sorry but wouldn't it make his W-Q combo even more oppressing while still being not hard to land because shoot W in enemy's face and spam Q?

He already does it so it means he doesn't lose anything in terms of escape compared to now, so no tradeoff, just better poke.

Photos of Ghosts22 votes

Cyclic balance much? Zed could afford to do his own 2-3 years at the bottom of the winrate rank.

agars286 votes

Cyclic Balance should not be enforced. That is unfair to the champion, and to those that play them.

ThaddeusMike9 votes

Overall seems to be a perception problem instead of an actual balance concern. That doesn't mean it isn't being looked at

Be careful how you phrase things. You are pretty strongly devaluing playing experience with this comment. I would avoid saying perception when you mean play experience or frustration, and I would avoid labeling balance concerns as "actual" when contrasting them with other sorts of concerns.

My understanding is that balance is your area of influence, but I would strongly advise you not to say things that imply that other subjects of game design aren't important.

RiotRiot ThEntropist12 votes

If I made it seem that I feel that player perception/feeling/experience is unimportant than that was completely my bad. It is extremely important and it is why we do not balance just around numbers/winrates. Apologies if my wording came off as belittling to any other opinions, was not the intention.

FFF14 votes

Yeah, It's not like they don't remove Teemo from the game just because they devalue player perception.

Seriously, I'm still mad when you guys removed Oracle's Elixir and also didn't nerf Teemo shrooms in some way to compensate for not being able to reliably clear them anymore.

Do you think anti-fun is a joke?

General Levi2 votes

Uhh, teemos shrooms were nerfed for compensation of the stupid bouncing. Buy the red trinket to counter it ez pz

Kobold14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qNczTVI1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-05-17T19:43:58.721+0000)

His ban rate has remained high which leads me to believe players simply feel he is more frustrating to play against because they have less options, instead of him actually being in an overpowered state.

Look to change up Zed's kit and find ways to lower frustration(add counterplay) while attempting to keep his power somewhat neutral

This makes the most sense with the way Riot has stated that they do not want too frustrating of champions with low counterplay.

Overall seems to be a perception problem instead of an actual balance concern. That doesn't mean it isn't being looked at.

This last statement is worded as if you think players opinions and experience is not worth listening to compared to your own. Its a very "Favorite champion, Don't touch my boy" sounding statement which is why players don't trust most of the balance team atm due to fear of this being true.

RiotRiot ThEntropist7 votes

I would agree, I prefer option #2 as well, and I believe this is what the live balance team is looking to do.

As for the last statement, I meant it more that the data(winrate) does not support either argument(for or against nerfing him) and so it is purely based on perception(ban rate). I was hoping the fact that we are looking at making some changes shows that we do care a lot of the players opinion, even if it doesn't match my own. Looking back I definitely could have worded it better to express this.

IgneaCrux3 votes

I must ask. We have been frustrated with Zed due to low counter-play for a long time.

(Which I am very happy that balance is seeing Zed as more of an "option limiting" choice as opposed to the skill matchup he should be. REQUIRING Zhonias instead of needing it when behind or outclassed by the enemy player alone.)

Because he is, even after QSS changes, not really OP. Just frustrating to play against as he seems to have all of the lane dominance, restricting your play to ridiculous levels.)

Why is it this problem was allowed to persist for so long, before balance decided to tackle such a meta-defining issue?

Latex Choker9 votes

The patch seems nice for bringing some of the struggling champions back up to snuff, but it feels like most of the champions who are too strong were left as is.

Top of this list is Alistar, who had changes on the PBE that seemed to have just vanished.

Other outliers like Trundle, Zed, Ekko, Ryze, and Lucian who have proven to be extremely dominate this patch were also ignored. I know there has been talk of Lucian and Ekko receiving changes for 6.11, but that seems a far ways off and it feels bad having to deal with the same batch of powerful champions for another 2 weeks. (Especially in the case of Lucian, who is in 60+% of games if not banned.)

This all flies in the face of Aurelion Sol, a champion who barely sees play yet enjoys statistical success seeing nerfs before any of the above.

Last point is just an interesting anecdote from the patch. Earth Drake was changed to not amplify True Damage for the sake of clarity (RIP triple earth drake Nunu), but at the same time Turrets now reduce true damage by 66% as part of their backdoor protection. Doesn't that seem a bit contradictory?

RiotRiot ThEntropist9 votes

Alistar nerfs should be in I believe. They were just left out of the patch notes due to a mistake.

As for the champions that are seen as overpowered, I agree that waiting can really suck. We all play a fair amount of solo queue so we definitely feel the frustration tied to waiting 2 more weeks to see this very strong guys brought down. However, I'd rather make sure we spend a fair bit of time to make sure we are hitting these guys in the right spot instead of overreacting and making these champions unplayable for their playerbase.

Pick rate and win rate both matter when the live team decides what to nerf. However, Aurelion Sol was grossly out of line after 6.9 and that is why he was a priority. 6.10 was a lot of cleaning up things that fell out of line due to 6.9.

Sadly, I have no info on the true damage thing. Does seem odd to me as well. Sadly I wasn't too involved with those changes so I don't have any context.

L0ve Is Blue21 votes

Aurelion Sol was grossly out of line after 6.9 and that is why he was a priority

I am litteraly shocked. Aurelion Sol more out of line than Zed, Ekko or Lucian? I don't understand. You guys should really change your priorities.

Papa Andrei6 votes

Adding my two cents here, but I (Being a jack of all trades player) felt in any role it was worse dealing with a good Sol player than Ekko, Zed, or Lucian. Lucian counterplay was fine, I would pick a tanky cc or burster and focus him down, Zed, pick someone with instant cc or damage mitigation. Ekko, picked galio and roflstomped him. But for Sol? I had to pick either Mundo or Leona each time. as they were the ones most easily able to stay on him once he got rylais.

L0ve Is Blue5 votes

TBH anyone mobile can counter aurelion sol so easily unless he has ult. You just get into his inner circle and all of his damage is gone.

Zackeryss10 votes

Aurelion sol has very clear ways of beating him : Either apply hard cc or get someone with lots of gapclosers to get past his stars and ult. But then there are people like like Ekko, Zed, and Lucian who have few weaknesses but tons of strengths. like, tons of strengths.

RiotRiot ThEntropist9 votes

Zed we wanted to see how the QSS changes affected him before we acted, Ekko was changed in 6.8 so we wanted to see how those pan out and Lucian is someone who is played a lot but that does not correlate to being grossly out of line. All of those champions are being looked at for 6.11 so they are a priority, just weren't at the very top of the list at the time.

Krys Star13 votes

It's kind of cringing, that Ekko changes in 6.8 made no effect, and it's taking 3 whole entire patches to finally address this. Zed has always been a frustrating champion to deal, moreso with the introduction of Duskblade and extremely with QSS no longer affecting his ult. Fizz, too. And now you two are pretending they weren't going to get out of hand with the QSS changes, 'sitting and watching' as they get to wreak havoc with nothing to stop them out other than a coordinated team, which isn't 90% of matches.

It honestly feels like Riot has stopped listening to the community. The last time the community's feedback was taken into consideration was during the juggernaut patch, and a few Rioters admitted regretting having listened to the community then. Why is this trend continuing? We make mistakes, Riot makes mistakes. Stop ignoring us, and allow us to contribute and discuss changes with you guys some.

HarrisonOwns4 votes

You thought, "hmm, the only viable counter to his ult was just nerfed, better see how this affects the already disgustingly OP faceroll trash champion!"

Seriously?

warpenguin55532 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qNczTVI1,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-05-17T19:32:46.273+0000) We all play a fair amount of solo queue

lies. There is no solo queue

Latex Choker1 votes

I appreciate the response, but if Pick rate and win rate are both factors in a champion's performance then shouldn't have Lucian, who currently boasts a 72% Pick rate and 53% Win rate in Diamond+ ELO been a cause for alarm? This is a champion who is being picked into almost every game without care or consequence to team comp and thrives. Even as you go down ELO Lucian still hovers around the 60% mark. This is astronomically high for a single champion. (Even Thresh and Vayne at their peaks only managed to scrape 40% pick rates.) It just strikes me as odd that Lucian wasn't considered an outlier like Malzhar/Aurelion Sol/Vlad/Swain/Cass.

RiotRiot ThEntropist8 votes

Yeah it would and is. He currently has nerfs on the PBE slated for 6.11

Cosnirak8 votes

No Zed changes, no Lucian changes? These are long overdue.

I read the Riot comments about them in this thread and to me they read like lame excuses. These aren't new issues, Riot has had LOTS of time. The fear of over nerfing seems silly when at worst they would be too weak for a couple weeks before you can give them some power back if needed. You often over nerf stuff despite not acting on it for more than a month at times anyways, are you really getting that much out of leaving blatantly obvious problems alone for several patches?

I get that in both cases it isn't winning a high % of the time that's the real problem. It's being highly mobile, spammy, bullying jerks that make the person playing them feel powerful while leaving opponents frustrated. While his play rate isn't as high as Lucian's and his ban rate isn't as high as Zed's, Yasuo is firmly in this category as well. All of these champions have had all of these problems for a very long time (generally since their release). If you won't buckle down and commit to bigger changes to them to truly fix those issues you NEED to accept keeping them crappy enough that we don't have to see them all the time. We're tired of dealing with them through bans.

No Youmuu's nerfs?! -_- The 45 second active cd is so absurdly low that it's often used to get to lane faster because it's safe to assume it'll be back up in time for a fight. The base stats are good. The build path is great. The fact that this has gone on for this long with not only no change but no mention by Riot as even something being looked at is downright silly. It's a good thing so few have caught on to how good Pantheon still is...

I'm sure you guys are aware of the current new Youmuu's + Black Cleaver based build for Lucian that seems to be catching on (at least I hope you are). When the most popular adc is building an assassin item and a juggernaut item while ignoring all crit something is probably wrong.

EDIT: The talk about Illaoi on the patch rundown podcast despite the stance given here in this thread about Zed seems contradictory. Imagine if Zed had Illaoi's win/play/ban rates (44.6%/2.1%/0.88% at plat+ in 6.9) and you were like "eh he's frustrating to play against so we've been a bit afraid to buff him." Instead he's at 50.75% win rate, 9.13% play rate, and 78.14% ban rate.

exigentomic8 votes

Xerath just got a slight bump this patch but I feel Ziggs still needs a little more help as well. I think he needs better scaling for how unreliable his damage is and it would also be nice if more offensive Ziggs plays could be encouraged. Currently, Satchel Charge has only a 35% AP ratio so Ziggs will not be inclined to use it offensively given his 325 MS unless a fight is already clearly won. For how vulnerable Ziggs becomes when using it offensively, along with it's 26 sec. CD, a much higher ratio is warranted. There's a lot more discussion about this here. What are your thoughts on the state of Ziggs, especially for those maining him?

BTW: I know he got some help in 6.9 but I think the ult. not 1-shotting waves is an underestimated nerf so it kind of balances out. Previously, you could just ult the incoming wave and back then meet your laner for the next wave without missing a beat. To do the same thing now, you basically need to run TP. Siege scenarios also aren't full blown stopped like before because the minions still live with a sliver of health and that's often enough for the enemies to take the turret.

LaughingStapler7 votes

After seeing some AP ratios sprinkled in for Nocturne and Shyvana, I'm been reminded that Mundo has only one ratio on his entire kit and that's a measly 10% AP for his W. Could we also get a little love for squishier but more offensive minded Mundos? Even a small AP ratio on Q could make Liandry's a lot more viable (especially when snowballing). It's strange that Mundo has almost no reasonable way of increasing his damage while champions like Malphite, Rammus, Nautilus, Sejuani, Amumu, Zac etc. all have decent ratios but simply shy away from them because it doesn't fit their primary task. Mundo's damage falls off quite hard late game and is basically just a nice lifesteal target rather than scary so I want to try some builds with more punch to them in order to make up for his lack of hard CC.

xRandomSome1x6 votes

I have loved Aurelion Sol since release, but you nerfed him into the ground in 6.9 and it doesnt seem like you even know you did it because most of them were indirect. You nerfed his cc, I get that, the 2 second stun was ridiculous. His direct nerfs were well needed. HOWEVER, you nerfed homeguards and removed tier 3 boots in the same patch. I dont think Riot realizes that this destroyed Aurelion Sol's late game. The Q E combo down mid that the contaminators called "Super Difficult" during MSI is near impossible, and even more dangerous to even attempt, now.

Now, you nerf him even more by increasing W's CD and decreasing his ult damage with no compensation. You are nerfing what makes him a unique champion. You created a zoning champion with a big obvious weakness: Champions with gap closures. There are a lot of them, and once they get on him there is almost no counterplay Aurelion Sol can do besides his ult, which has a 2 minute CD. While most gap closure skills are back 20 seconds at most. The bluntness of that weakness is the reason why his pick rate is so low but his win rate is so high. His design is counterplay through zoning: no gap closures = safe pick, gap closures = the most unsafe pick.

Try to think of Sol as a newer version of Heimerdinger(Whom hasn't been nerfed in a long long time and doesn't really need to). If you pick the wrong champ against him you won't be able to so anything solo. But, because he is new you nerf so that he is punished for being picked against his "safe picks" and punished for being counterpicked. We barely have had a chance to find a way to use him, and once we have we now have to find harder ways to pull off this champion, if they are even still possible.

MasterAK4 votes

I agree completely with this. I loved Aurelion Sol when he was released, but because there were better picks and he was constantly getting nerfed, I stopped playing him. I was going to continue playing him recently but if they're going to continue nerfing him with 0 compensation, I don't really see the point.

The Divine God6 votes

Why is it that a champion can build defensive items and be able to produce so much damage? I understand the whole scaling with health abilities and that's only on a few champions but shouldn't items that make you harder to kill make you do less damage? I've seen so many champions build sunfire cape into whatever other tanky item and they still are doing more damage than most carries. Shouldn't you balance it out? Instead of making tanks being able to build defensively and do a lot of damage still, they should have some defects to make it balanced. This may be a dumb idea but I think making some really strong items have some sort of defect it would make the whole meta better. So what are your opinions about it?

wladzx3 votes

"Passive - Void Shift Malzahar

COOLDOWN : 23-6 seconds (at levels 1-18) ⇒ 30/18/10/6 seconds (at levels 1/6/11/16)"

Can someone please explain to me how exactly is this a nerf?

RiotRiot ThEntropist6 votes

The cooldown for his shield is longer, so there is more opportunity to punish him when you initially knock it off.

wladzx2 votes

but that's only for first 5 levels right? and after that he's stronger than he was before lol

Cirrusstrafe15 votes

Actually it's more like this:

Old: 23-22-21-20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6 New: 30-30-30-30-30-18-18-18-18-18-10-10-10-10-10-6-6-6 hail Teemo

Basically, it's a nerf (and huge at times) at all levels except: 7, 11-18, in which it is barely a buff over prior values.

The concern I have is that this isn't actually addressing the absurdity of giving him a one second spanning banshee's veil (yeah yeah I know it shunts on any damage but still) on an insanely low cooldown. Malzahar only needs a single second of immunity to get in and do literally all of his crap. The mere fact that he can shrug everything done to him in this span, get all his "stuff" off, and walk away is mind bogglingly suffocating to deal with. As far as I am concerned this nerf changes nothing fundamentally about why that passive is the most disgustingly stupid thing I have ever seen put in this game, and I have lived through every broken and nonfunctional rage inducing iteration of Feral Flare.

wladzx4 votes

thank you guys for clearing this up for me. but yeah, still op

Onkel Malte3 votes

How is it that when everyone complains about the Malzahar passive in late game, but it gets increased in the early game?

I played the old Malzahar a lot - but the new one is just a frustrating enemy. Because of his passive, because of his spammable Q, and because he's going for CDR so he can ult your ass as much as possible.

I miss the old Malzahar. The old power of the Voidlings, and his old Space-Aids-Farming. ;-;

TheDelighted2 votes

Any plans for ziggs? 6.10 Doesn't include any change to him and he does seem to be quite underperforming than many mid laners.

RiotRiot Afic3 votes

The numbers on ziggs are actually disturbingly similar from 6.8 to 6.9. Our data suggests that he remained pretty stable with all of the changes going around.

Abyssphere10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Afic,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qNczTVI1,comment-id=00170000,timestamp=2016-05-18T00:20:20.915+0000)

The numbers on ziggs are actually disturbingly similar from 6.8 to 6.9. Our data suggests that he remained pretty stable with all of the changes going around.

I get the impression that the problem here is that people expected Ziggs to change a lot from 6.8 to 6.9 - positively. Ziggs was considered pretty weak before the rework so if he's the same now, he's still pretty weak.

P4H Niloc1 votes

Is sol wrecking people in challenger? Because I never see that champ and I am curious to why he keeps getting nerfed

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