Quick Gameplay Thoughts: Feb 22

RiotMeddler·2/22/2017, 6:02:55 PM·1 votes·54,907 views

Hey folks,

More stuff on our minds below.


PBE Context Dump

We've got a bunch of things hitting the PBE today. Quick context on some of them:

  • Ashe - too strong in organized play in particular. We're testing a nerf to her E, given that's much more powerful in organized play than regular.
  • Doran's Shield - Experimental changes testing a version with a Spectre's Cowl like passive designed to give sustain when being harassed that doesn't have to be balanced around bot lane (isn't significantly more effect against two harassers than one).
  • Exhaust - Too strong. Currently testing a CD nerf, might try something else at some point.
  • Rengar, Jayce, Le Blanc - Unsure if changes will be on PBE today or not at time of writing, previous set of nerfs weren't sufficient on them though, so likely hitting them again in 7.5.
  • Kindred - Testing improvements to which camps marks spawn on (reduce random chance of getting screwed). Longer term (which patch uncertain) we want to look at making crit more appealing for them, open up crit itemization as a pathway in part to support a later game power curve.
  • Talon - Nerfs to passive damage levels 1-11 and Q. Looking to reduce his power against other melee lanes especially where those effects are disproportionately powerful (much easier to access)
  • Aatrox - has changes on the PBE today, note though numbers haven't gone through final tuning yet

Early Unanimous Surrender

Should be getting some testing this patch cycle in a lucky region! Details to follow shortly (later today I think?) TLDR for anyone unfamiliar with previous discussions: Testing a surrender at 15 minutes option if the entire team agrees, only on a single server initially to assess its impacts on surrender rates, player behavior, player satisfaction/frustration etc.

200 Comments

Solideus2/22/2017, 6:08:24 PM48 votes

Just wanted to say I love these posts, please keep doing them! :)

King Grey2/22/2017, 9:56:55 PM18 votes

Any chance you guys could hold off on talon nerfs considering youmuus, cleaver, almost EVERY mastery he uses, edge of night, and eventually lethality as a whole are all nerfed?

you say his melee matchups are the issue, but now that a lot of his masteries are being cut thats already a TON of early damage gone PLUS the fact that a lot of those melee matchups are top lane and we know riots "forced meta" wants him out of top, a lot of those champions use the more defensive masteries so their power isnt being cut, that SHOULD be enough to hold him off

considering the fact that he CANT lane properly in mid since no self respecting ranged champion would ever be hit with both ends of rake and once he uses about 4 or 5 rakes without hitting both ends hes out of mana and likely out of health from being poked down as he tries to farm

losing the skillshot trades due to his E blink being gone and the predictability of his Q means hes already worse off in mid than old talon use to be, and these nerfs will not ONLY get him out of top lane but ALSO make him "worse zed" just like before the rework

Ahristocats2/22/2017, 6:35:07 PM16 votes

{quoted}

  • Talon - Nerfs to passive damage levels 1-11 and Q. Looking to reduce his power against other melee lanes especially where those effects are disproportionately powerful (much easier to access)

i am surprised that you nerf talon against melees but leave a lot of champions stronger against melees like quinn for instance

/shrug

Quepha2/22/2017, 6:26:46 PM13 votes

Why does exhaust reduce armor and MR when that seems like a purely offensive effect that steps on the toes of ignite?

On opening up crit itemization for Kindred, do you think crit itemization in general feels right in terms of power? I know that lethality is considered overtuned right now but even before that the crit path for adcs felt like you had to wait way too long to be useful to your team and the items you need to achieve that felt like the adc has no room for situational choices to deal with the major threats keeping them from hitting three items.

Mecsnt2/23/2017, 8:45:52 AM9 votes

I appreciate your effort, but i think you guys really should stop doing the weird double-dip nerf (which usually results in a champion getting trashed for a while).

For example, regardless of reason, currently AD caster style champions are definitely overperforming, so i'm happy to see them getting nerfed.

However they're overperforming mostly because of the new lethality items and balance, notably edge of night is clearly hilarious at the moment, other lethality items synergizing well with the already-good black cleaver and everything made a lot of champions suddenly overpowered.

Now you guys are trying to balance (and have balanced) those items and then ALSO nerf(ed/ing) those AD caster champions. like, Varus Q was always annoyingly strong but varus was never broken-tier champion before the lethality items. maybe nerf only lethality items or only those champions?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude but this honestly has been the typical "riot nerf" cycle.

  1. Add/buff lethality.
  2. Wow those AD champions are performing way too well
  3. ok time to nerf them. nerf those champions.
  4. maybe iethality was too good? nerf lethality i guess. what will be left : nerfed AD champion(s) with their 46% win rate

Let's be honest. like literally EVERY single competetive player in league of legend right now knows that lethality is broken. Champions that can abuse this will definitely perform well. can we start from nerfing weirdly costefficient lethality items first, and then touch AD champions later if they're still overpowered?

Winterkill2/22/2017, 8:44:24 PM8 votes

Something you have yet to address is the support role. Weeks ago you said the problem is not the itemization or champions but the fact that the level difference is the problem. I hate to break it to you but the itemization and champions are a bigger problem than the level difference. Champions in the support role have been dealing with inconsistent levels for years. In fact, years ago you did exactly this . . . . and increased the EXP and gold gained for supports. What has this done for the support role? The role is in the same spot it was years ago.

You have created the support role to be unattractive, not very interactive, and quite frankly . . . . . . boring. Nothing you have done up to this point for the support role has worked. Nothing you have talked about doing is anything different than you already have done. The problem is not just the role but the itemization and champions. While other roles have unique items, masteries and champions . . . . specific support oriented champions build the same thing . . . . . game after game . . . and have a kit that revolves around building the same thing . . . . game after game . . . . . and quite frankly all play and feel the same. I feel like there is enough distinction between tanky supports versus a enchanter support. Heck, with the new tank rework coming out it is probably going to give that class of support champions more options and fun to play. Can we really sit here and be honest Meddler? You have taken almost every single enchanter support and ruined their ability to function properly in a solo-lane when they were before, ruined their theme and continue to ignore what their thematic should be offering to their gameplay, and more. You did all of this becauase their utility was too great to be allowed in a solo lane. Instead of taking some utility away and creating a kit for these champions that revolved around their theme or a unique gameplay, you gave them more utility and created a entire itemization to play on that utility even more. Here we are and you still haven't improved the support role or the enchanter role in particular because you feel that exp and gold is the problem. More utility, building specific support items too boost abilities that all feel the same on every single enchanter and doesn't offer anything different to the game or the role . . . is the problem.

Enchanters:

Karma - My favorite champion and probably the most balanced number wise. Unfortunately she suffers from the mindset that a generic shield bot champion is better than having a champion who uses her shields in a unique way and makes it look specifically designed for her and her thematic. The ability exists on an item active and is not original. It has no flair. It suffers from the generic idea that every enchanter should have a speed up move and heal/shield. If you want to make Karma the go to shield bot champion, do her R+E in a way that it is different than the active on Iron Locket of Solari. Heck, why don't you just remove the item indefinitely and keep the ability on Karma? There are so many better ways to do her entire kit and play on her theme more, but it seems the mindset you guys are settled on is taking more away and adding more utility . . . when you have openly admitted that Karma was played more in mid and top lane . . . . so why would you purposely take abilities, themes and everything else away from her when the community liked it so much? I cannot fathom why you want a champion to sit in the back and build shield/heal enhancing items to be relevant in a game . . . she has one damage move that is probably way too strong early game and falls off bad mid to late game compared to other battlemages. Shield bomb should never have been removed. What should have been removed was the mass shielding to begin with. You coudn't even be botherd to do her mass shields in a way that it was unique to Karma. It's bland.

Janna - She has a good winrate but is she really meeting the thematic she is supposed to? She has a lot of boring playstyle and her new story is really amazing. I read the story and think . . this doesn't fit her gameplay or kit at all. There is so much you could be doing for her and really make her this amazing champion that is completely different from other enchanters, but you don't seem to care. If she can turn into a bird, why isn't this in her gameplay? If she is a character that helps people when they ask for her help and really need it, why is this not reflected in her gameplay? It just seems like you are missing a lot of interesting things on her and don't really care about anything but her sitting in the back and pressing E with shield/heal enchancing items.

Lulu - I enjoyed playing Lulu in lanes. She was way too oppressive and it was because of her utility. If the problem was her utility than why did you decide to completely gutter lane Lulu and add more utility to her . . . and then say she is great right now. It's another instance with Karma, if players like playing in her lane . . . do not remove her from being played in a lane and not actually address the problems with her kit. Instead you guttered her and I personally do not feel like she is meeting the mark of a go to Fae Sorceresss. If she is supposed to be a fae sorceress shouldn't she be able to interact more with her fae partner? Don't you think there are better ways to make her kit more thematic and allow her to be played in a solo lane, while still being an option as a support. You don't seem to care. Wouldn't it be amazing if she no longer had the W and could place Pix on the ground in a targetable location and augment him with more attack speed? This is just one of thousands of ideas that is taking some utility away from her and playing on her thematic . . . . and not being gamebreaking.

Sona - Another one of my favorite champions that I feel like is in a terrible spot right now. People can sit here and say she is better off where she is right now. With her mini-rework she was too strong. You practically made her useless and you wanted to add more utility to her by nerfing her damage . . . . another example of how you think more utility and bland gameplay is better than anything else you could have done on her. Maybe if you removed her auras and say . . . allow her to transfer the buffs she gives herself to other players, that would be something more interesting to the game. Auras and passive buffs that are really not done well, isn't very good for the game.

There are ways to make enchanters more appealing. The problem seems to be this mindset that more utility is better than exciting and unique gameplay. You furthered this by making support items that added more utility and passive buffs. The support items in Black Market Brawlers were fun and unique. Why haven't some of these items been added? Why are you not looking at finding ways to make the support role more interactive outside of a shield/heal buff passive that gives more passives? I just think you don't care about the role to begin with.

warpenguin5552/22/2017, 6:45:04 PM7 votes

Please keep making these kinds of posts. Their great

EDIT: they're great.

Cosmic Warper2/22/2017, 11:50:16 PM7 votes

I'm sorry but the talon nerfs on the pbe are shortsighted. If you want to nerf talon's melee damage nerf his Q bonus damage. Nerfing rake cooldown also makes 0 sense. Lethality is the problem with ad assassins. If talon's early and late game are weak, then what's the point of even playing talon? His midgame is average.

AMYS GRAVE2/22/2017, 8:56:55 PM7 votes

Exhaust - Too strong. Currently testing a CD nerf, might try something else at some point.

Please don't nerf it for support defensive usage, but nerf its offensive usage so it stops competing with ignite. Remove/nerf its armor/MR shred.

Oelyk2/22/2017, 9:20:50 PM6 votes

Angry Talon poster alert.

I really don't want you to immediately jump to direct nerfs on him just because the items that made him strong, expecially that you just toned down damage all around in 7.4 in masteries he uses, item he uses, ect. His Q should remain a trade off, distance for damage, and if you reduce that theres no real point to try and get close anymore to proc empowered Q. Also these nerfs are going to hit early talon very hard, meaning he has less kill potential where he really needs it, to snow ball the game. I know snowballing game is unhealthy gameplay, despite being fun to play as but if you are going to make it hard for Talon to net early kills despite being a melee laner, he's just going to end up in the gutter to the new and stronger laner's who will become meta. I understand Talon is strong, but you have the wrong approach to it, and if these nerfs go through you better give him more access to his ult because without it he's pretty dam useless except for cleaning up or waiting for enemy to face check.

Exiles SoIace2/23/2017, 5:06:16 AM6 votes

Why nerf Talon and Lethality at the same time? His winrate wasn't high before Lethality buffs so nerfing both at once would have his winrate plummet when it's only slightly above average at 52%

CrazFight 2/23/2017, 12:22:19 AM5 votes

Nerfing exghust? I give up, riot honestly..... i don't know if you have heard... BUT THERE IS A LARGE AMOUNT OF DMG THIS SEASON, exghust is one of the only ways to negate a large amount damage.

Honeslty Idk anymore... I guess keep increasing the dmg creep, because thats working great.

FluffyDay2/22/2017, 8:12:26 PM4 votes

How do you feel about Lissandra? Cause I feel she's currently on the weak side.

SnowFall2/23/2017, 4:45:34 AM4 votes

I thought MF's Q's increased damage on kill actually involves skill and counterplay, why would you remove that with lethality being nerfed?

Solidair32/22/2017, 6:27:33 PM3 votes

Meddler where's the support exp change? D: or is that in this patch tomorrow

Wet Dryman2/22/2017, 6:19:20 PM3 votes

Hi Meddler,

It's very important matter to me so I'm gonna repeat my question from your previous post: are you guys planning any changes for Gragas in the Tank Update other than some base stats adjusments? If so is there any possibility to let Gragas keep his alternative and fun play routes like Mage or Bruiser? There are people who play him only this ways and it would feel awful for them to literally lose champion that they were playing for so long.

TSBGhost2/23/2017, 5:40:24 PM3 votes

So basically, Talons items got buffed so despite Ghostblade and Nights Edge likely getting one and his damage masteries getting nerfed you guys are going to nerf his kit? Makes no sense, once all of these happen he's going to be worse than he was before the lethality buffs, and he still loses to a lot of champs with them regardless.

Let's also talk about the Miss Fortune nerf that got put on the PBE. She's a good ADC but not on the same level as Varus or Jhin despite their win rates. Why nerf her like this? It feels like a pretty hard nerf for a champion that isn't even that good. Maybe you are looking at support? But even then why not just nerf MF E ability? Don't get me wrong, MF ADC is really good in low elo games, but you shouldn't nerf a champion just because they are OP in low elo. She already has problems pushing faster than other ADCs and this is just going to hurt thatand her over all damage in lane a lot more

Meltix1202/24/2017, 7:10:40 AM3 votes

Another nerf to rengo another step to reverting him ;)

Rengar nerf=useless On some point riot has to revert him or buff him

KEEP GOING Rengar

KittyofTindalos2/24/2017, 10:34:44 AM3 votes

How about making Talon passive bleed a finisher? (aka %missingHP damage)

Wouldn't it fit his assassin theme more by leaving is target bleeding to death, will making him less of a toplane bully for melee champ'?

Illâoi Evê Siôn2/22/2017, 9:26:14 PM2 votes

The new Doran's Shield is really strong. Are you doing one of those "extreme numbers" test-runs?

Also, which damage types does the +5 physical damage apply to? Single target, AoE, DoT, or ambient?

Kyunsei2/22/2017, 6:53:33 PM2 votes

Weren't you planning Crit items changes ?

Maybe for 7.6/7.7 ?

Valor Bot2/22/2017, 6:46:21 PM2 votes

Thoughts on Quinn?