Duskblade, AD Assassins, and You

RiotRiot Axes·2/2/2016, 9:21:21 PM·1 votes·61,136 views

Hi folks,

We’ve put a new item on the PBE aimed at solving a few of the problems AD-scaling Assassins face when interacting with the item system.

The current item details are:

Duskblade of Draktharr

  • Recipe: Serrated Dirk + B.F. Sword + 850 gold (3250 total gold)
  • +75 Attack Damage
  • +5% Movement Speed
  • UNIQUE Passive: +10 Armor Penetration
  • UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks on an enemy champion apply Nightfall (120 second cooldown).
  • Nightfall: After 2 seconds, deal physical damage equal to 90 plus 25% of the target's missing health. If you get a kill or assist on the target before Nightfall ends, the cooldown is refunded.

I put a preliminary post on this up in December here when we were a bit earlier in iteration: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/GhWdm3R6-new-ad-assassin-item-in-internal-testing

First, the obvious. AD assassins aren’t, as a group, weak at this point. A few aren’t performing well, and a few are performing a bit too well. That said, the challenge we’re trying to solve with Duskblade isn’t one of strength, even though this item will definitely impact character strength.

This will make more sense in a chain of events as they currently happen in League (I’ll explain the points in a sec):

  • There is poor itemization support for AD assassins (2-4 core items + random AD items)
  • An AD assassin champion is made and doesn’t succeed because of the above
  • We build additional power into the AD assassin’s kit
  • AD Assassins that succeed are the ones with more levels or synergize well with the current hodgepodge of AD items

… all of the above leads us to our current approach, which is:

  • By building real AD assassin items, we can actually gauge an AD assassin’s performance along the same item progression as other champions

… which means that we can balance for those champions who are too weak or strong.

Breaking it down:

AD Assassins don’t feel well-supported by the item system...

Once again, not champion strength. I’m talking about the feeling of support. We’ve talked a lot about choice in the item system lately (e.g. the Marksman item rework), but that’s only one of the critical values provided by our item system. Another is adequately rewarding successes - something that our item system does pretty poorly for AD assassin champions.

AD assassin builds typically are made of 2-4 items that suit them very well (exactly which items depends on the champion) and then a grab bag of whatever else they can find. The net result is that they’re rewarded a LOT for early success, but aren’t rewarded nearly as much while they’re slogging through their last couple items.

... As a result we overcompensate on their kits.

The other side of the above problem is that we have to balance these champions’ power levels around items that actually exist.

Champions get meaningfully less power from items that are not optimized for them - an ADC gets less value out of Dead Man’s Plate than Tanks and Fighters do, and less out of Zhonya’s Hourglass than Mages. Because ADCs are fully supported with their own items, this is never a problem for them. If there are a few fringe cases where Dead Man’s Plate or Zhonya’s Hourglass is actually a good idea, it’s because they’re the optimal tool for very specific task, but the tradeoff needs to be significant (ie: loss of a 6th item slot for essentially cross-role ‘splash’ utility).

AD Assassins aren’t similarly supported. They have too few items that are optimized for them, which means that they effectively just get less power - in many cases, much less power - out of the gold they spend later in a game. In order to balance them, that difference in power has to be compensated somewhere.

We have a few main ways of doing that. Some AD assassins have fairly strong (or safe) lane phases that let them maintain a gold lead. So they might be getting less value out of gold (due to poor itemization), but this is offset by the fact that they have more gold to spend. This means, in turn, we get a lot of snowball champions. This isn’t inherently bad for the game, but not something we should be forced to do for all champions of a given class.

Final point: if a champion’s kit can scale better later in the game than usual, we need to be aware of the tradeoff we’re making because it’s much more difficult to deny an opponent experience than gold. As a result, their power spike later in the game becomes extremely reliable (compared to a champion who relies on items).

By fully supporting AD assassins in the item system, we no longer have to balance them around the assumption that their kits will be making up a sizable power deficit from items, which means that their kits can have either less guaranteed early games or less guaranteed late games, depending on the champion.

And there’s collateral damage for item changes

Because AD Assassins are cobbling together items from other classes, they’re very sensitive to changes done for other classes. For example, the Last Whisper changes at preseason hurt them quite badly even though they were generally successful for other classes of users - an Assassin’s best targets have very little bonus armor.

By supporting AD assassins with distinct itemization, we both minimize cases where we accidentally damage their state (due to work on other parts of the game) and increase our ability to tune them when they’re strong or weak as a group.

We can be up front about this, however: Duskblade is intended to be a core item for a lot of assassins (a first, second, or third buy, depending) and we will be balancing around it. That said, we do this anyway based on other items, it’s just a lot more random which items we balance which AD assassins around.

... But AD assassins are frustrating.

We understand that AD assassins offer low counterplay and significant frustration playing against and, by working on them, we risk exacerbating that in the short term. We feel this work is important because it puts us in a better position to address those pain points as well.

197 Comments

Blupor2/2/2016, 9:56:39 PM32 votes

I agree that AD assassins' item choices complicate individual tuning, but this item really needs to be accompanied by some sort of armor option for mages. As of right now, we have a very expensive Zhonyas and Guardian Angel as our options. Most AP mid mains would agree that rushing armguard is never particularly fun or interactive, and the Zhonyas active ends up feeling overvalued on AP mid champions that excel at keeping enemies away.

With this new item having armor pen and the delayed damage built in, I feel like I'll be forced further toward Zhonya's, yet it'll be even more unsatisfying knowing I'm building it into armor pen. Many of the AD assassins aren't heavily gated by mana, or lack mana at all. Mages do need to solve mana issues in their build, but the arms race has been a stalemate so far since assassins haven't had optimal items themselves. I think a potential solution is to add a new AP/armor option that has some element of intelligent use, but lacks a binary active effect like Zhonya's has.

tl;dr: lots of good, valid points about assassins, but most hold true for Mage counter-itemization as well. I think they will need to be looked at in response to the current state of AD items.

Gundam Zeta2/2/2016, 9:34:08 PM16 votes

Didn't you learn your lesson from dfg? Also I play a lot of ad assassins and play against them a lot. When an AP mage is fed there is counter play. When an AD assassin is fed it feels like there is much less, except qss which eats an item slot and FORCES gold inefficiency in itemization. That's just for zed, talon and rengar cannot get qss'ed making them have less counterplay. At high elo this won't matter but for low elo it will make whoever has the snowballiest ad assassin win. Which can already happen. Making zed who is already very strong stronger will make mid lane and ADC hell. Making talon and rengar stronger will return us do days that that's all who will be played in solo q. Talon when he manages to snowball is unstoppable and has ZERO counter play. Making that common will destroy the meta and make low mobility mages impossible to play in soloq. So I ask again? Did you learn your lesson from dog and can you accept that some of your champions should not get buffs in itemization because their kits are inheirintly broken?

GrReaper962/2/2016, 9:28:53 PM15 votes

Honestly the only ones i see benefiting from this unless fat are Talon Zed

Magicians2/2/2016, 9:50:30 PM12 votes

Speaking of "collateral damage", I'm looking at this and I'm wondering - What exactly prevents it from becoming "core" on non-assasins? What stops me from getting this on JarvanIV , MonkeyKing or even LeeSin considering their high burst potential without building much AD and going full tank from there resulting in the team having an effective tank who can just remove a squishy target from the fight (especially these 3 who don't have much problems getting to the backline) ? What I'm afraid will happen is the item will become a must-buy on alot more champions than just the "ad assasins", but the champs it's actually targeted at like Zed / Talon will get their damage/scaling nerfed to the ground because of the power this item brings. Yes, the buildpath might not be the most optimal for some of the champions, but for the power of removing someone from the fight it's gonna be worth altering a build. I would suggest a change to the passive from "25% of target's missing health" to something alot more similar to Zed's ult - % of the damage dealt by the owner. I believe that'd help avoid the abovementioned "duskblade into full tank" cases, cause in it's current state it looks quite good to just get one of these on every champion, 1 soraka banana for 25% of someone's missing health? - Yes please [zombie-brand-clap]

Sire Hippington2/3/2016, 12:19:14 AM9 votes

To be hionest, i feel like you are looking at the wrong class, or the wrong passive for it. We have prettty few AD-assasins, Khazix Rengar Talon Shaco Zed are the only true ad-assasins, and maybe Pantheon. Out of those, only Khazix and Pantheon feel like they aren't that well supported, though pant actually is as his kit requires to get some tankiness at some point...i rarly hit a point where non of the aviable items seems fitting on them, and if, the item i's search most often would be ad+armor... Aditionally, Pant and Kah don't work well with Nightfall, Pant will often waste it on frontline champs, Kah either needs a second atempt for burst,s talling out with ult for another q+passive, or he wants the kill instant for the E reset and not 2 sec delayed. He also usually wants to keep pn cleaning a fight and not only assasinate 1 target, same with pant.

The 4 assasins that actuall profti from the item all work well with current items as they actuall scale well with crit.

The class that imo feels least supported are ad-casters, thouse who aren't a 100-0 one-trick-pony like talon or zed, but rather want to have sustained imoact on a fight. Champs like pant, wukong, riven, jayce, sivir... Especially those who need mana have poor options right now, as manamune just feels bad, no matter if the powerlevel is high enough or not. The mana consumeing toggle that looses power the longer you fight goes exactly in the opposite direction from what you want from the item + it's only really usable on AA-focused champs or those with spamable singletarget skills. Haveing to stack the tear in the more fast paced meta and often on champs that rely on a good early is another problem. Befor preseason, ER really worked well, it didn't offer sustain in lane soi it wasn't problematic on the likes of pant, but it solved mana problems later on and did offer reasonable stats, beeing the cheapest big ticket ad item.

Aside from that, i fear The new item will just be unhealthy. It mostly supports 100-0 patterns, the exact reason why DFG was removed. And just how DFG allowed more uutillity based mages like lissandra to assasinate targets, i can totally see J4 or Heca rushing deathblade and oneshotting squishys with little counterplay. The fact that you can't use AAs to trade normaly with it also is really annoying, either you go all-in or you only use skills...just doesn't feel good.

So overall, i think deathblade is a bad single item fix for assasins, it should rather come with a full assasin overhaul, as it only supports a small niche of champs that already have decent itemization and leaves those that actually struggle in the dust. And even then, it probably still is unhealthy to support 100-0 patterns and the 'don't AA unless you mean it' part would still be very annoying -- maybe switch it around with stormraiders, stromraiders triggers after a set time uppon dealing damage or AA, and nightfall is applyed after dealing x% of the targets helath in y sec.

I think it would be way more immportant to fix muramana, or atleast ad back old ER. And after that, an item that offers something for ad-casters in generall, not only assasins, would be better.

Like a new 'trinity' without crit. Seriously, most ad-casters, especially assasins, really would want alot that trinity offers, ad, ms, the rage passive, the strong spellblade, cdr, some as to speedup their combo and make stuff more fluid, mana and hp are helpfull aswell - just crit sucks as it is to unreliable and assasins prefer reliable damage. item 2015 +item 3044 +item 3057 could be a potential buildpath.

And for lategame scaleing, why not exploring the dot on damage that you had on Warriors for some time?

like item 1038 +item 3134 +item 1042 +800g(3500 total) -75AD -10 arpen -20%AS -5%ms -Unique Passive(same name as IE to prevent absue from marksmen): Damageing oppnents (with physical damage?) causes them to bleed for 15% of the recived damage as physical damage over 3sec.

The dagger+as is there cause later in the game, as is a good multiplyer on ad-heavy builts, but mostly so it isn't as great as a rush item. The dot would help all physical damage dealrs that don't go for IE, and since it's physical damage armor will be double effective(like vs nightfall) so the item will help more vs squishys than tanks As allways, numbers are just there to give an impression and certainly would need some testing

Or an option to make deathblade more usable on multiple champs and without enchanceing 100-0 paterns: Change nightfall to turn you ivisible and give ~10%ms+ghostwalk for ~1sec (still procing 2sec after your AA), with ~30sec cd, and maybe instantly apply that upon kill/assist regardless of cd. This would make it easier for Assasins to stay around for a second round if the first atempt isn't enough(most have an abillity that gets less than 3sec cd) while also helping to secape after a succesfull assasination. This could allow to balance the around needing a second round rather than 100-0 burst in the future.

TL;DR: I don't think Deathblade will be a healthy item, and even if, it mostly supports the champs that already have good items later on, while it works bad for those that lack itemisation. It's also not Ad-assasins that really have poor itemisation, but more the no-assasin casters, especially those who use some more mana, so the target group feels a bit off for such a change...

Manwalrus2/2/2016, 9:25:11 PM7 votes

I'm very scared of Zed now.

Das Kappatal2/3/2016, 4:49:51 AM6 votes

Has there been any consideration regarding tier 2 boots for AD assassins?

One of the reasons AP assassins' itemisation works is that they can get 15 magic penetration for a relatively low cost, so they can spend their other gold on ability power, cooldown reduction, etc. It raises their gold efficiency, basically. They also have CDR boots as a reasonable alternative, if they're trying to cap CDR quickly.

AD assassins only have CDR boots - and a lot of AD assassins don't need CDR, so they'll build defensive boots instead.

I think one of the issues is that tier 2 boots that gave either AD or armor penetration would immediately be preferred by most ADCs, since 25% attack speed for 800 gold is an absolutely awful purchase if you could get 10 armor pen or 15-20 AD instead (just spitballing numbers that AD assassins would be satisfied with).

I don't know what the solution is, if any, but I'd love to know if the designers have been discussing this.

Nidalee SO NYAAA2/2/2016, 9:34:13 PM4 votes

I only hear you guys talking AD assassins. What about AP assassins they buy the same ap items that mages buy for the most part. Most of the them are in a pretty weak place right now as well

Big Bad Dydy2/2/2016, 11:10:11 PM4 votes

Did you guys think about this item on a juggernaut ?

I was wondering why this wouldn't a good item on some juggernauts (Garen or Darius for example) or any other AD fighters that rely on both AAs and their spells. I'm scared that this would empowered them. The only thing that this item lacks for juggers is HP, but it doesn't matter too much during laning phase since you'll be building a Black Cleaver/Sterak's Gage later (or if you build this, you could even go for tank items faster). I agree that buying this as a jugger would make you commit to a high damage build and at the same time, it wouldn't give you the resistance needed. But isn't it worth ?

We often see collateral damage/uses for new items : for example, at the moment, Sterak's Gage can be built on ADCs if they need to survive to high burst (and what do you think of this, btw ? Is it disturbing for you or it was a bit intented/expected from your part ?).

Annoxis2/2/2016, 11:23:12 PM3 votes

From what I see, LoL has only 6 AD assassins :

  • Talon
  • Zed
  • Rengar
  • Kha'Zix
  • Shaco
  • Nocturne

The first four should be good with the item. The last two like the stats, but not the passive, because they are auto-attack based... Shaco AD plays with crit, so Nighfall will never procs because of the burst with his passive + Q + IE, and Nocturne can't burst at all, which is a problem for an assassin... By the way, do you have plan for him ?

EDIT : The assassin here are the ones that are tagged as being primarly assassin from Riot point of view.

Commit Sudoku2/3/2016, 2:20:34 PM3 votes

As a Zed main I don't want to build this item. The AD assassins that are weak right now consist of Kha'zix and that isn't because of poor itemization its because his kit is reliant on enemies being alone and resets and reset mechanics are always either really good or really bad (just think Akali).

In my opinion this item will actually make assassins more unhealthy and potentially make champions like Quinn, Draven, and Corki impossible to deal with w/o "Melee Only" tag. This item doesn't help assassins do their job it does their job for them which is essentially the same problem DFG you can't throw damage dealing effects on items that scale from the damage that you deal. What you will likely end up seeing in higher level play is tank comps to combat this shift and no one fighting until Rengar, Talon, Shaco, or Zed has "Night Fall" up which is essentially a free kill.

Make an item that helps assassins not one that does the work for them. Like after getting a kill/assist give the champ a 1.5 sec stealth or immune to cc for 1.5 sec. Perhaps something like the Hextech Gunblade active to mark those champions so you can't proc the effect multiple times. Maybe an Active effect that if you kill a champion X amount of seconds do an AoE slow based on how much time left you had to kill the champion marked. These are effects that simply help out allowing a safer escape/chase after kill.

I whole heartily believe that this item will be bad for the game and will result in a lot of champion nerfs instead of healthy assassins gameplay. The worst part is Riot is going to end up shoving this item down my throat even though I really don't want to build it they are going to nerf all the champions that use it instead of making the changes to the item. Riot said that they want to give us more "Options" if that is true why not design more than 1 item for us to test you are giving us 1. The community thinks that this will have a negative impact in the game as a whole. The majority of the community find fed assassins oppressive and not fun to face. This item takes almost no real thought to use correctly and on paper seems oppressive as all hell. Assassin mains DO NOT want this item it takes away from playing assassins it the items that does my job for me. It will honestly take away most of the fun of playing assassins and you will end up making my buy it because you will ignore the community and nerf that champions that it ends up being broken on instead of admitting that you made an unbalanced item. Then nerf the item patches later without reverting any champion nerfs, essentially exactly what happened with DFG.

proxzie2/10/2016, 7:10:23 AM2 votes

honestly things like this on talon zed and most assassins don't scare me it limits there ability to trade in lane and basically means that without ulti and full combo that assassin in ur lane isn't gunma be coming near to you for 60 seconds every time its ulti is down the place where this becomes realy scary for me is on any character that goes int he jungle assassin tank or basically anything that scales off ad or even just uses it a little is utterly terrifying u gank a lane with this and ur always guna have the passive available and the burst of 2 people means that guy in that lane is just dead

even if ur not playing somthigng more damage based like khazix or rengar or noc or shaco bet hell someone builds this ona volibear a Leona or an amumu or anything with a substancial cc chain when they gank or then beyond that the marksman junglers u occasionally get a Quinn a graves a twitch hell even a kogmaw who don't have to worry about having to all in at inopatune times in lane can just come out the jungle lay down a burst of damage with the mid or the top laner

the other thing that's a scary prospect is all in supports again Leona alister braum to a degree things that when u go u go hard (this is much less likely as the gold is rarely available for a support to build such an expensive item)

so what im saying is this will be a limiting factor for the mid lane or top lane assassin that buys this that will add as much potential downside as it will upside which is nice and balanced but I think when u take this thing out of the hands of a solo laner and put it on someone that isn't going to be auto attack trading then that's where it becomes potentially realy unhealthy for the game as an item

SKP23en2/2/2016, 9:30:34 PM2 votes

Wouldn't it be better if you could toggle it like Muramana? I mean, if Nightfall is up and you attack a champion you are not interested on using the passive on, you are gonna waste it...

So why not choose when the passive starts so you can define who's gonna get it?

Kittase2/3/2016, 10:49:56 PM2 votes

Um, quick question:

This item works off of basic attacks vs champions. So that means that if I want the proc to be meaningful, I can't auto-attack an enemy champion unless I want to burst them down. Is that intentional? Am I not supposed to be rushing this item, or should I be planning to build it on a jungler?

Chromatic Eagle2/2/2016, 10:20:09 PM1 votes

There's all this talk about building core items for both larger and smaller champion roles. Are there any plans to add core items for all main and sub champion roles, or is it ok for AP assassins to share items with Mages?

How will this effect, if any, champions like Fiora, Riven, etc.? Is it intended to help them?

NegativePro2/2/2016, 9:26:35 PM1 votes

Is nightfall considered a disable/debuff, and can it be removed by item 3140 item 3139 and/or summoner 1 if so?

Linna Excel2/2/2016, 11:47:38 PM1 votes

Evelyn is an assassin who can build AD. This item doesn't seem good on her. I don't see Vi using this either.

For an AD jungler perspective, this seems more like a win-more item. If you can afford something like this early, you've probably already won the match.