Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 18

RiotMeddler·Jan 18, 2019·1 votes·135,004 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Galio, Ornn and Sejuani

Wanted to follow up on these three given we've recently done work on each of them. One of our main goals with changes was to make them easier to balance for both average and pro play, so that they're not really weak or excessively strong in one context when balanced in the other. Not done assessing any of the three, and likely there'll be some tweaks to all of them ahead, but wanted to share thoughts on where we're up to right now.

Galio

We overbuffed Galio in retrospect, so right now he's overpowered in both regular play and pro. We think it's likely we've bridged some of the gap, but can’t get a clear read on whether that’s true or not given he’s just the right pick everywhere regardless right now. We've got some nerfs in 9.2, should be able to get a better take on things after that once regular and pro play settle down a bit.

Ornn

We were expecting the 9.1 changes to be significantly power positive. His average performance has actually decreased a bit instead. Assessing that's complicated by both some need to relearn his play (particularly removal of shield and different use of passive) and the fact that his play rate tripled after the changes (influx of new players always depresses performance on more difficult champions). We're adding a bit of starting power to him in the form of base HP and Armor in 9.2. Taking it carefully however to avoid overbuffing given Ornn's history of being shown to be really strong once players have nailed down exactly how to make use of his kit.

Sejuani

Early days here too, feeling cautiously optimistic that changes narrowed the gap a decent amount though. She looks like she's in a reasonable spot for solo queue and, while she's still getting a fair bit of pro priority, it's not as much as we'd previously have expected relative to her solo queue performance.

Assessing damage output

As mentioned we're doing some work looking at rates and sources of damage output in the game at present. Hoping to have details to share about our conclusions by the end of next week. A bit of info on both how we're approaching the problem and current thinking below as well though.

Some of the angles we're looking at this from:

Damage output from different profiles of character (e.g. output from a full offense build, versus a full defense build)
Ability to survive damage along the same lines (full defense build, hybrid builds, full offense etc)
State of damage output at different points in the game (are there issues throughout the game, primarily in laning phase, mainly in late game team fights etc)
Where damage is coming from (base abilities, ratios, item unique effects, runes etc)
How much of the issue is total damage output versus how bursty that damage is
How repeatable high amounts of damage are (is this something that can be done every rotation, or is it dependent on a long CD being used?)

Goal in answering those questions is to try and target our changes at the specific cases really in need, avoid either making changes where they're inappropriate and/or not making big enough changes where it really matters. Some things we're currently trending towards in that regard:

Damage from champion kits is generally not the issue
Early game (laning) damage is overall appropriate (some clear exceptions)
Ability to stack up front damage from a range of systems, item uniques and runes especially, creates some issues
We've potentially got scaling in too many different places (ratios on kits, items and runes), leading to too much of a win more/lose more scenario once a lead's achieved by one side or the other.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

179 Comments

Aurelion PlafondJan 18, 201946 votes

Just nerf conqueror, you can't play tanks against this rune and that suck

SchuijrenJan 18, 20197 votes

{quoted}

Just nerf conqueror, you can't play tanks against this rune and that suck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo_vVEjDic4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo_vVEjDic4

BretteuseJan 18, 201920 votes

There some saying it could turn into what Fervor was. I really want to just get rid of the True Damage conversion so the bonus AD can be increased, making it more useful during the lanning phase and less oppresive for tanks. The only thing to think about is making it's stacking process more fair

Also to stop making TD a commoners damage type, it used to be way more scarce, devaluing the champions that were able to deal it because others can just pick a rune, adjust nothing more in their build or gameplay and get the same benefits.

SlakingJan 19, 20193 votes

I think it should be the other way around. Remove/hard nerf the AD so it's just the "if you're a bruiser take this" rune. Runes were supposed to be mostly situational, and I think Conq being the rune that you take against tanky comps, while PTA is the one you take vs squishier ones. That said, if they are going to keep the AD they should absolutely nerf the true damage, but making it a more specialised rune would be preferable. If the true damage is still too much, just replace with with %pen or something.

XxxLumberJackxxXJan 18, 201936 votes

@meddler Could you expain the thought process behind taking these tanks and giving them more damage in a meta where all the players are saying LESS DAMAGE PLEASE

KadexeJan 18, 20192 votes

That's pretty simple, really. The champions were too strong in pro play because of their utility, so some of that utility was taken away from them. They were given more damage and tankiness to compensate for that lost utility.

HügöJan 18, 20196 votes

Tankiness [sg-miss-fortune]

dome025Jan 18, 201912 votes

Assessing Damage Output

Perhaps it´s worth to look at items like item 3026 and item 3102 which were defensive items every champ could buy (helping to reduce damage and increase tankyness at the same time). Currently players get both (offensive and defensive stats).

Perhaps reverting them (with attention to ga not becoming a must buy item for tanks again, but the issue was solved before ga was reworked I believe) and making more defensive items which can also be picked up by damage dealers would be an option.

JabalorJan 18, 201911 votes

Also about the damage. I think one of the main problems is the amount of true damage there is available in the game right now, between conqueror and infinity edge, getting armor is kind of trivial at late stages of the games

HügöJan 18, 20192 votes

And then Camille turns up and you can just build full damage because your "tankiness" means nothing anymore.

RammBorghiniJan 18, 201910 votes

hello man any taughts about tank itemisation , feels so weak Rn ,and also about the amount of true dmg in the game

Buff Riven PlzJan 18, 20198 votes

Is it true conqueror will be changed to be more like fervor of battle?

RiotMeddlerJan 18, 201916 votes

Conqueror's one of the things we're looking at. Whether it gets changed or not and in what direction if so isn't something locked down though, just one of the options we're exploring.

Gramps69Jan 18, 20195 votes

Hey Meddler, I think that reworking it to remove the true damage component would be the best course of action, since it seems like with the Crit Item rework IE will lose its True Damage conversion as well. It's a hard rune to play against, especially on a hybrid champ like Jax where you can't itemize effectively due to the AD and AP from his kit, and then the True Damage on top of it.

DivinedJan 18, 20197 votes

Did you see the stats done of adc's on reddit. It states that the new changes will be nerfs, is the intent to nerf adcs again?

Diablo v2Jan 18, 20197 votes

meddler so conqueror is mby getting removed is there any chance of aftershock to?

Gramps69Jan 18, 20195 votes

Plz rito, there's no need for extra damage in the game. Remove the damage part, keep the bonus resistances and give it a small shield that scales with max health

ArrowsofAlfarJan 18, 20197 votes

Do you guys plan on changing Zac the same way u did to Sejuani,Ornn and Galio? He's in a weak state in solo q since forever and performs way better in competitive still, even after being nerfed heavily in the past.

RiotMeddlerJan 18, 20197 votes

One update since time of writing - looks like we'll have to move the first round of loading screen changes to 9.3, we've run into a couple of issues in final testing.

Also, apologies for the limited responses today, very packed day so haven't had as much time as usual.

ROX PeanutJan 18, 20196 votes

Hey Meddler can you give us a little bit more insight why removing the 50 catchup-XP per camp doesnt seem to be an option for you guys to punish gank-heavy junglers a bit more? Catchup-XP reduces the punishment if a gank doesnt work out or if you lose too many camps as trade-off for a successful gank.

The level-system has an indirect catchup-system on its own cause you need more XP for every additional level which means that the level discrepancy decreases anyways between to players if their XP difference stays the same.

A concern that could come up is that junglers whose clear-speed is quite low are punished as well. These junglers are mostly tank jungler. In the past, the trade-off for their clearspeed was their good scaling. This strength got a bit lost in the near past and maybe reverting the 8.5 Cinderhulk nerf(Bonus health 20% -> 15%) is a good way to change that a bit again.

HügöJan 18, 20193 votes

Because catch up exp is the only thing that stops junglers from being completly useless. Junglers are already 2 levels behind of the laners and with the new exp nerfs the will fall even further behind. Camps needs to respawn faster so that gank heavy junglers will miss out exp.

SpideraxeJan 18, 20195 votes

Hi Meddler is still too early to ask if you guys made any further development on the Irelia and Akali follow changes in 9.3

RiotMeddlerJan 18, 20194 votes

We've just started some internal testing on a new round of changes. Need a bit of time to get confidence in them before sharing though. Hoping to have something in 9.3, can't make any guarantees yet though.

ZaghyrJan 18, 20192 votes

Why do you always wait until you are "confident" in changes to let us know what they are? If getting people's hopes up with the changes is the issue then preface the statement by saying that they are early experimental changes and likely to change. I do not see a valid reason why you need to hide this information from us when we REALLY want to know what you are trying and what is failing rather than being kept in the dark for weeks or months. I would think that sharing early iterations with the players who care could be a good chance to get early feedback that could be very useful.

VenomStrike31Jan 18, 20195 votes

Knowing these boards, Riot would get shit for the stuff they thought of doing even if they didn't push the failed tests to PBE. Not all feedback is useful.

SchuijrenJan 18, 20195 votes

@Meddler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo_vVEjDic4

I believe Conqueror really has to change to make damage output healthy in toplane again. What are your views on that?

Chromatic EagleJan 18, 20195 votes

Have you ever considered the availability of CDR currently? It's a common complaint that having your abilities up more often is what has led to excessive damage output.

FG BelacJan 18, 20195 votes

How do you feel about Rift Herald in its current state? Is it intentional that champions are able to solo it consistently and with high health at the end of it? Thanks!

JabalorJan 18, 20194 votes

Meddler got any comments in the Renekton buffs? Are they still coming on 9.2, 9.3? Have you considered anything regarding his passive and/or ultimate?

RiotMeddlerJan 18, 20195 votes

Still planning on looking at him in 9.3, nothing more concrete yet.

shofazJan 18, 20194 votes

Hey meddler earlier in the week you said that you guys MIGHT consider nerfing Viktor again. If you do, would there be proper compensation to AP Viktor?

Also to kill Tank Viktor(since its unhealthy and makes it hard to balance both Tank and Ap build) why not remove the mana scaling on his shield(compensating it with base or increased AP numbers on shield)or make Iceborn Gauntlet melee only? This would give room to buff AP Viktor.

And in general are there any future plans to help AP Viktor?

Git GooedJan 18, 20194 votes

Any plans for Zac? Feels a tad underwhelming

MrSmithsJan 18, 20194 votes

Early damage is definitely not appropriate, that's probably the biggest issue there is in regards to damage. It's one thing to blow someone up mid/late game, but early on it's completely and utterly ridiculous.

AłiceJan 20, 20194 votes

You need to do something about giving the winning team a bigger advantage by getting Baron, yes just Baron...

C9 Squeeky Jan 20, 20192 votes

The proposed changes are halving the AD/AP baron buff gives at 20mins, though I imagine probably needs more changes than that.

Salvor HardınJan 18, 20193 votes

Neeko's W stopped hitting the third attack on the towers, could you confirm if it was an intentional nerf or a Bug please?

Have a nice weekend Meddler!

RiotMeddlerJan 18, 201911 votes

It wasn't an intentional change and will be back to affecting towers in 9.2 next week.

Having said that it has raised the issue of whether it should be working on towers in the first place. Not planning to remove it right now, hence the bug fix, but possible that does change someday.

Taylor DJan 18, 20193 votes

Your Hail of Blades buff is simply just adding more burst to champions who can use it. Xin Zhao is absolutely nuts with is, and Vayne is becoming a menace in the laning phase which is not supposed to happen.

NebuulJan 19, 20193 votes

What if instead of Ornn getting a shield on W, he got a small heal when he personally broke a brittle proc on champions, large minions, and large/epic monsters? Right now, he has absolutely no sustain. He needs something to play the role of hit point battery since losing his shield.

NoIWontBuySkinsJan 21, 20193 votes

Still no discussions about Yas?

Marco1291Jan 18, 20192 votes

Hey Meddler, what about the original shojin design/purpose?(an item for lighter fighter to make their teamfight potential a bit better).

Does shojin replacing ER mean that that design is dead?

NotorietyJan 18, 20192 votes

Hey meddler,what do you think about Taliyah right now? I loved to play her in high-elo before in jungle,but now I feel like I hurt my team when I pick her,is she being looked up? Maybe the Q reduce should go to 40%?

ZerenzaJan 18, 20192 votes

Do you think that the gold from Turret Plating could be lowered? I think that part of the problem is how much gold we get early in the game, more gold equals more damage and while i'v noticed that some of you guy's changes were nice the turret plating giving 160 gold seemed a bit out of line to me.

AłiceJan 18, 20192 votes

According to wiki, after Zac's rework he's no longer a juggernaut, but a vanguard. Why does he still have the lowest base armor for a vanguard? Also please fix his passive, it shouldn't be smite-able with normal smite and full damage! Zac

Vasterlan0Jan 18, 20192 votes

I have a question for you meddler, when exactly does a champion reach a point in balancing that a unique mechanic from a kit needs to be removed. Personally I'm not a fan of Irelia losing her disarm, I thought it was a cool and unique mechanic (also lore wise it kinda made sense) but she is a strong champion so something I assume must be changed. But I'm curious what the process is to reach that point as, I would hope it isn't a light process.

ShahamutJan 18, 20192 votes

@Meddler Any thoughts on Skarner??

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-plus/A1I5czRs-my-thoughts-on-skarners-spires-long-post?comment=0014

AłiceJan 19, 20192 votes

Try giving Zac an "unstoppable"' to his E, because currently it can be stopped by way TOO MANY champs, including Sylas.

AVINIIJan 20, 20192 votes

@Meddler Since you already mentioned that Aatrox is going to requiere work in the near future, I would like to share my ideas.

The main problem with Aatrox is his Q, it is kinda annoying to play against. Either the poke is to heavy, damage to high or just frustrating. So how could we solve that? By spreading his power in other directions. His main damaging ability is his Q, no auto attacks, W, E or R ... I know those abilitys buff his Q. Have you guys ever thought about gutting his Q, removing the CC knockup and introduce a way to make him a 50 / 50 caster and auto attacker? By introducing a way to make him rely on his auto attacks aswell, or not completely useless when his Q is on cooldown, you guys could shorten Aatroxs Q power by a lot and pack some of that in his auto attacks. He would not be as anoying to play against anymore, since his Q is not as strong anymore, he would have to come closer to deal damage with his auto attacks awell, because his Q is not the main source anymore.

First of all, many old Aatrox fellows would enjoy such a change. All they want from new Aatrox is a better connection with old Aatrox and his auto attacks, passive management etc. and all of those "revert Aatrox" posts will find an end.

Second, his Q would not be the only power source anymore, because he now has auto attacks aswell, so lane poking with Q wont be as significant anymore, especially when his knockups are getting removed. So if you gutt his Q by making it not deal as much damage anymore, removing the CC, maybe only a slow now, but making it a bit faster, since he has to work with auto attacks aswell, you would solve the problem with an annoying champion to play against. His Q right now has to deal this much damage, because it is literally the only real power source, and this is why you guys cant do too much against it.

Third and most important he would become a swordsmaster who is also viable with auto attacks aswell. I think especially Aatrox should be one of those champions being viable with auto attacks aswell, since his old form was really good at it. Maybe remove the healing part from his E, pack it into his new auto attack W ability, change his passive so we have to manage our power spike and revive like it used to be, gutt the R by removing the revive and extra damage, since he would use this power with his passive now like it used to be, and make it an engaging ability wich doesnt have such a high cooldown anymore, because it is not overloaded anymore.

I am just speculating right here, but I think changing his power distribution could solve this "annoying to play against" part from Aatrox. Please think about this, I am a very big Aatrox enthusiast with around 700k mastery points on this champion. I want this problem to get solved, and not put by side by nerfing his numbers over and over again. Thank you. Aatrox

watermelon ilyJan 21, 20192 votes

Meddler Do you guys have any plans with amumu? For some reason it feels like he was absolutely gutted indirectly after patch 8.24b. I'm a otp and me and many other otps have decreased in rank significantly. I went from D1 to P1 and many others went from D1 to D2. We're really out here struggling to reach Challenger for the first time in league history. I really don't know what happened, but I know our winrates dropped immediately after 824b dropped. It just feels like amumu does 3x as less damage. Amumu used to not have enough movement speed, now he lacks the dmg (esp for level 3 skirmishes at scuttler and late game). Idk .. it seems like mu otp are opting towards tank as patch 9.2 arrives, which can't carry games. If you want examples i'd me more than happy to show you. These are just my concerns with high elo amumu players.

Thanks anyways, P.G.