Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 18

RiotMeddler·1/18/2019, 5:27:58 PM·1 votes·135,004 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Galio, Ornn and Sejuani

Wanted to follow up on these three given we've recently done work on each of them. One of our main goals with changes was to make them easier to balance for both average and pro play, so that they're not really weak or excessively strong in one context when balanced in the other. Not done assessing any of the three, and likely there'll be some tweaks to all of them ahead, but wanted to share thoughts on where we're up to right now.

  • Galio

We overbuffed Galio in retrospect, so right now he's overpowered in both regular play and pro. We think it's likely we've bridged some of the gap, but can’t get a clear read on whether that’s true or not given he’s just the right pick everywhere regardless right now. We've got some nerfs in 9.2, should be able to get a better take on things after that once regular and pro play settle down a bit.

  • Ornn

We were expecting the 9.1 changes to be significantly power positive. His average performance has actually decreased a bit instead. Assessing that's complicated by both some need to relearn his play (particularly removal of shield and different use of passive) and the fact that his play rate tripled after the changes (influx of new players always depresses performance on more difficult champions). We're adding a bit of starting power to him in the form of base HP and Armor in 9.2. Taking it carefully however to avoid overbuffing given Ornn's history of being shown to be really strong once players have nailed down exactly how to make use of his kit.

  • Sejuani

Early days here too, feeling cautiously optimistic that changes narrowed the gap a decent amount though. She looks like she's in a reasonable spot for solo queue and, while she's still getting a fair bit of pro priority, it's not as much as we'd previously have expected relative to her solo queue performance.


Assessing damage output

As mentioned we're doing some work looking at rates and sources of damage output in the game at present. Hoping to have details to share about our conclusions by the end of next week. A bit of info on both how we're approaching the problem and current thinking below as well though.

Some of the angles we're looking at this from:

  • Damage output from different profiles of character (e.g. output from a full offense build, versus a full defense build)
  • Ability to survive damage along the same lines (full defense build, hybrid builds, full offense etc)
  • State of damage output at different points in the game (are there issues throughout the game, primarily in laning phase, mainly in late game team fights etc)
  • Where damage is coming from (base abilities, ratios, item unique effects, runes etc)
  • How much of the issue is total damage output versus how bursty that damage is
  • How repeatable high amounts of damage are (is this something that can be done every rotation, or is it dependent on a long CD being used?)

Goal in answering those questions is to try and target our changes at the specific cases really in need, avoid either making changes where they're inappropriate and/or not making big enough changes where it really matters. Some things we're currently trending towards in that regard:

  • Damage from champion kits is generally not the issue
  • Early game (laning) damage is overall appropriate (some clear exceptions)
  • Ability to stack up front damage from a range of systems, item uniques and runes especially, creates some issues
  • We've potentially got scaling in too many different places (ratios on kits, items and runes), leading to too much of a win more/lose more scenario once a lead's achieved by one side or the other.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

179 Comments

Aurelion Plafond1/18/2019, 5:30:56 PM46 votes

Just nerf conqueror, you can't play tanks against this rune and that suck

XxxLumberJackxxX1/18/2019, 5:30:39 PM36 votes

@meddler Could you expain the thought process behind taking these tanks and giving them more damage in a meta where all the players are saying LESS DAMAGE PLEASE

dome0251/18/2019, 5:43:44 PM12 votes

Assessing Damage Output

Perhaps it´s worth to look at items like item 3026 and item 3102 which were defensive items every champ could buy (helping to reduce damage and increase tankyness at the same time). Currently players get both (offensive and defensive stats).

Perhaps reverting them (with attention to ga not becoming a must buy item for tanks again, but the issue was solved before ga was reworked I believe) and making more defensive items which can also be picked up by damage dealers would be an option.

Jabalor1/18/2019, 5:46:54 PM11 votes

Also about the damage. I think one of the main problems is the amount of true damage there is available in the game right now, between conqueror and infinity edge, getting armor is kind of trivial at late stages of the games

RammBorghini1/18/2019, 5:41:40 PM10 votes

hello man any taughts about tank itemisation , feels so weak Rn ,and also about the amount of true dmg in the game

Buff Riven Plz1/18/2019, 5:30:39 PM8 votes

Is it true conqueror will be changed to be more like fervor of battle?

ArrowsofAlfar1/18/2019, 6:34:28 PM7 votes

Do you guys plan on changing Zac the same way u did to Sejuani,Ornn and Galio? He's in a weak state in solo q since forever and performs way better in competitive still, even after being nerfed heavily in the past.

Divined1/18/2019, 5:35:21 PM7 votes

Did you see the stats done of adc's on reddit. It states that the new changes will be nerfs, is the intent to nerf adcs again?

Diablo v21/18/2019, 5:36:02 PM7 votes

meddler so conqueror is mby getting removed is there any chance of aftershock to?

RiotMeddler1/18/2019, 9:47:51 PM7 votes

One update since time of writing - looks like we'll have to move the first round of loading screen changes to 9.3, we've run into a couple of issues in final testing.

Also, apologies for the limited responses today, very packed day so haven't had as much time as usual.

ROX Peanut1/18/2019, 5:42:03 PM6 votes

Hey Meddler can you give us a little bit more insight why removing the 50 catchup-XP per camp doesnt seem to be an option for you guys to punish gank-heavy junglers a bit more? Catchup-XP reduces the punishment if a gank doesnt work out or if you lose too many camps as trade-off for a successful gank.

The level-system has an indirect catchup-system on its own cause you need more XP for every additional level which means that the level discrepancy decreases anyways between to players if their XP difference stays the same.

A concern that could come up is that junglers whose clear-speed is quite low are punished as well. These junglers are mostly tank jungler. In the past, the trade-off for their clearspeed was their good scaling. This strength got a bit lost in the near past and maybe reverting the 8.5 Cinderhulk nerf(Bonus health 20% -> 15%) is a good way to change that a bit again.

Schuijren1/18/2019, 5:46:02 PM5 votes

@Meddler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo_vVEjDic4

I believe Conqueror really has to change to make damage output healthy in toplane again. What are your views on that?

FG Belac1/18/2019, 8:09:08 PM5 votes

How do you feel about Rift Herald in its current state? Is it intentional that champions are able to solo it consistently and with high health at the end of it? Thanks!

Spideraxe1/18/2019, 5:31:08 PM5 votes

Hi Meddler is still too early to ask if you guys made any further development on the Irelia and Akali follow changes in 9.3

Chromatic Eagle1/18/2019, 7:34:13 PM5 votes

Have you ever considered the availability of CDR currently? It's a common complaint that having your abilities up more often is what has led to excessive damage output.

Git Gooed1/18/2019, 5:50:37 PM4 votes

Any plans for Zac? Feels a tad underwhelming

shofaz1/18/2019, 5:38:31 PM4 votes

Hey meddler earlier in the week you said that you guys MIGHT consider nerfing Viktor again. If you do, would there be proper compensation to AP Viktor?

Also to kill Tank Viktor(since its unhealthy and makes it hard to balance both Tank and Ap build) why not remove the mana scaling on his shield(compensating it with base or increased AP numbers on shield)or make Iceborn Gauntlet melee only? This would give room to buff AP Viktor.

And in general are there any future plans to help AP Viktor?

MrSmiths1/18/2019, 7:36:54 PM4 votes

Early damage is definitely not appropriate, that's probably the biggest issue there is in regards to damage. It's one thing to blow someone up mid/late game, but early on it's completely and utterly ridiculous.

Ałice1/20/2019, 3:48:50 PM4 votes

You need to do something about giving the winning team a bigger advantage by getting Baron, yes just Baron...

Jabalor1/18/2019, 5:32:00 PM4 votes

Meddler got any comments in the Renekton buffs? Are they still coming on 9.2, 9.3? Have you considered anything regarding his passive and/or ultimate?

Taylor D1/18/2019, 10:09:46 PM3 votes

Your Hail of Blades buff is simply just adding more burst to champions who can use it. Xin Zhao is absolutely nuts with is, and Vayne is becoming a menace in the laning phase which is not supposed to happen.

Salvor Hardın1/18/2019, 5:34:31 PM3 votes

Neeko's W stopped hitting the third attack on the towers, could you confirm if it was an intentional nerf or a Bug please?

Have a nice weekend Meddler!

Nebuul1/19/2019, 8:21:47 PM3 votes

What if instead of Ornn getting a shield on W, he got a small heal when he personally broke a brittle proc on champions, large minions, and large/epic monsters? Right now, he has absolutely no sustain. He needs something to play the role of hit point battery since losing his shield.

NoIWontBuySkins1/21/2019, 3:43:20 AM3 votes

Still no discussions about Yas?

AVINII1/20/2019, 12:03:09 PM2 votes

@Meddler Since you already mentioned that Aatrox is going to requiere work in the near future, I would like to share my ideas.

The main problem with Aatrox is his Q, it is kinda annoying to play against. Either the poke is to heavy, damage to high or just frustrating. So how could we solve that? By spreading his power in other directions. His main damaging ability is his Q, no auto attacks, W, E or R ... I know those abilitys buff his Q. Have you guys ever thought about gutting his Q, removing the CC knockup and introduce a way to make him a 50 / 50 caster and auto attacker? By introducing a way to make him rely on his auto attacks aswell, or not completely useless when his Q is on cooldown, you guys could shorten Aatroxs Q power by a lot and pack some of that in his auto attacks. He would not be as anoying to play against anymore, since his Q is not as strong anymore, he would have to come closer to deal damage with his auto attacks awell, because his Q is not the main source anymore.

First of all, many old Aatrox fellows would enjoy such a change. All they want from new Aatrox is a better connection with old Aatrox and his auto attacks, passive management etc. and all of those "revert Aatrox" posts will find an end.

Second, his Q would not be the only power source anymore, because he now has auto attacks aswell, so lane poking with Q wont be as significant anymore, especially when his knockups are getting removed. So if you gutt his Q by making it not deal as much damage anymore, removing the CC, maybe only a slow now, but making it a bit faster, since he has to work with auto attacks aswell, you would solve the problem with an annoying champion to play against. His Q right now has to deal this much damage, because it is literally the only real power source, and this is why you guys cant do too much against it.

Third and most important he would become a swordsmaster who is also viable with auto attacks aswell. I think especially Aatrox should be one of those champions being viable with auto attacks aswell, since his old form was really good at it. Maybe remove the healing part from his E, pack it into his new auto attack W ability, change his passive so we have to manage our power spike and revive like it used to be, gutt the R by removing the revive and extra damage, since he would use this power with his passive now like it used to be, and make it an engaging ability wich doesnt have such a high cooldown anymore, because it is not overloaded anymore.

I am just speculating right here, but I think changing his power distribution could solve this "annoying to play against" part from Aatrox. Please think about this, I am a very big Aatrox enthusiast with around 700k mastery points on this champion. I want this problem to get solved, and not put by side by nerfing his numbers over and over again. Thank you. Aatrox

Notoriety1/18/2019, 6:07:17 PM2 votes

Hey meddler,what do you think about Taliyah right now? I loved to play her in high-elo before in jungle,but now I feel like I hurt my team when I pick her,is she being looked up? Maybe the Q reduce should go to 40%?

watermelon ily1/21/2019, 5:52:30 AM2 votes

Meddler Do you guys have any plans with amumu? For some reason it feels like he was absolutely gutted indirectly after patch 8.24b. I'm a otp and me and many other otps have decreased in rank significantly. I went from D1 to P1 and many others went from D1 to D2. We're really out here struggling to reach Challenger for the first time in league history. I really don't know what happened, but I know our winrates dropped immediately after 824b dropped. It just feels like amumu does 3x as less damage. Amumu used to not have enough movement speed, now he lacks the dmg (esp for level 3 skirmishes at scuttler and late game). Idk .. it seems like mu otp are opting towards tank as patch 9.2 arrives, which can't carry games. If you want examples i'd me more than happy to show you. These are just my concerns with high elo amumu players.

Thanks anyways, P.G.

Zerenza1/18/2019, 6:37:19 PM2 votes

Do you think that the gold from Turret Plating could be lowered? I think that part of the problem is how much gold we get early in the game, more gold equals more damage and while i'v noticed that some of you guy's changes were nice the turret plating giving 160 gold seemed a bit out of line to me.

Ałice1/18/2019, 7:12:53 PM2 votes

According to wiki, after Zac's rework he's no longer a juggernaut, but a vanguard. Why does he still have the lowest base armor for a vanguard? Also please fix his passive, it shouldn't be smite-able with normal smite and full damage! Zac

Vasterlan01/18/2019, 8:32:48 PM2 votes

I have a question for you meddler, when exactly does a champion reach a point in balancing that a unique mechanic from a kit needs to be removed. Personally I'm not a fan of Irelia losing her disarm, I thought it was a cool and unique mechanic (also lore wise it kinda made sense) but she is a strong champion so something I assume must be changed. But I'm curious what the process is to reach that point as, I would hope it isn't a light process.

Marco12911/18/2019, 5:53:00 PM2 votes

Hey Meddler, what about the original shojin design/purpose?(an item for lighter fighter to make their teamfight potential a bit better).

Does shojin replacing ER mean that that design is dead?

Jester Laur1/22/2019, 9:24:55 PM2 votes

Hi, do you plan on making Taliyah mmid a thing again?

Ałice1/19/2019, 12:04:54 AM2 votes

Try giving Zac an "unstoppable"' to his E, because currently it can be stopped by way TOO MANY champs, including Sylas.