Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 12

RiotMeddler·5/12/2017, 3:52:35 PM·1 votes·73,877 views

Hey all,

Some stuff below. Also, if there are things you'd like to hear more about besides the usual balance adjustments, patch follow up and whatever's on my mind do let me know either here or on Twitter!


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Rek'Sai Changes

We'll hopefully have the Rek'Sai changes in patch 7.11. It's possible those move to 7.12 instead, depending on how work on her ult animations/sound goes, 7.11 is currently looking pretty likely though. Our goals are to give Rek'Sai a more engaging ult, reduce difficulties balancing organized play and regular play and better support a fighter, rather than tank, playstyle. Core changes include:

  • Higher bonus AD ratios and lower bases (Q at 15-35 + 0.4 bonus AD from 15-55 + 0.2, E damage at 50-90 + 0.7 bonus AD from 80-120% AD)
  • W now knocks up a single target for 1s, and slightly knocks other units back from Rek'Sai, rather than being a 0.5-1.0s knockup based off distance from Rek'Sai
  • Tunnel CD after use drops much more with rank (10-2s, from 10-6s)
  • Fury generates much faster (25 per attack/ability), converts to health faster (3s instead of 5), restores less health (20-190, rather than 25-450). More in/out pattern as a fighter, using lower tunnel CDs in part.
  • A new ult. Short version is Rek'Sai marks targets as Prey when she damages them by any means. She can dash to marked Prey up to 1500 units away, dealing 100-400 (+1.4 Bonus AD) + 20-30% missing health. Short channel (1.1s)

Exact numbers are still going through tuning of course, and there are some other small changes I've omitted.


7.12 Support Item work

We're targeting some work on support items in 7.12 (7.11 possible, though fairly unlikely). Goal there's to open up more options for characters building items to help their team, rather than being pretty locked on to Locket and Redemption. We like the design on both of those two items, they're pretty fun, have some skill expression, pretty satisfying etc. They've got too much of a strangehold on many builds though. Still figuring out details, likely changes include things like Locket's shield having a lower base but scaling with caster's Armor/MR (so goes well with other defensive purchases and abilities), Redemption having a lower base but scaling better than usual with healing/shielding boosts, build path changes to Knight's Vow, Zeke's, Righteous Glory etc.


Elemental Dragon Ideas

Thanks for the new elemental dragon ideas in the previous thread! Some of them were similar to ideas we've kicked around ourselves previously, some were new and well worth thinking about. It'll be quite a while until we playtest anything (maybe next year even), but it's always good to have some concepts to think about until then.

Reading through those suggestions a vision drake cropped up as an idea more than I'd expected. There's a lot of ways a vision drake could be done poorly (unsatisfying, low, or hard to appreciate power). Things like more wards or more frequent trinket uses are likely to fall into that category. If going a bit more inventive though there might be something with some pretty gameplay to it that could work though (e.g. circling dragons who provide windowed vision for you team and can be interacted with by the enemy? Could make them spawn with your minion waves etc). Will have to put more thought into that.

We'll also likely take a look at the drake encounters themselves at some point, whether with testing on new drakes or possibly beforehand. At the least a pass on whether the difficulty taking each drake's in the correct spot (gut reaction: close, but might benefit from some tuning). Possibly some quick work to make the fights a bit more distinct too, though we don't want to over complicate them (they're there to reward map control and encourage PVP interaction, not to be a difficult PVE encounter you only take if the enemy can't contest meaningfully).

317 Comments

HalcyonDweller5/12/2017, 3:58:58 PM32 votes

Hi Meddler,

There is player frustration due to players trolling us or threatening to roll steal to force us to queue dodge when they don't want to do it themselves. If they force a dodge then nobody can report them, and it feels as if they get away with it while we suffer the consequences.

Is this on Riot's radar?

And what are your personal thoughts about it?


Thank you for your time and for doing these gameplay thoughts so frequently!

Regards, Halcyon

Overlord Forte5/12/2017, 4:37:42 PM19 votes

Perhaps have enemies who crush Rek'sai's tunnels also be marked as a target for her R? Would open another way for her ambush tunnel behaviors without necessarily having to 'be traveling through the tunnel when it's collapsing'.

Jeddy0175/12/2017, 4:02:03 PM15 votes

....build path changes to Knight's Vow, Zeke's, Righteous Glory etc.

All I want is for Knight's Vow to have some CDR, then I'm happy. Support tanks needs some more options for supportive tank items with CDR.

Master Stache5/12/2017, 4:17:51 PM13 votes

Will Rek'Sai's new ult still use the scream of the old one? I know it won't be as necessary since it isn't global, but it's pretty iconic.

A GIANT CAPYBARA5/12/2017, 7:32:31 PM12 votes

Hi Meddler, some question as to the thoughts behind rek'sai changes

  1. A lot of her power is looking to be tied into her ult simply by the numbers listed, and the changes to her E specifically really make her E look very unsatisfying for the cd it has given already, and her Q doesnt look like it has enough of a benefit for going more ad centric items. Are you planning on shifting her numbers around to make her base kit in terms of damage feel more rewarding and less or a "ult bot" when it comes to fighting someone?

  2. A lot of her power in pro play was tied into her constant map pressure with her old ult, and her tremor sense giving a very safe scouting game for the early stages. Since you made her more of a duelist now, are you planning on tinkering with the tremor sense range early on and making it scale up to its current form to make her less reliable than she is?

  3. Her fury looks very unrewarding to get with the damage change to her E and the small amount of healing it gets, while it adds up I dont think it will be very noticable for the opponent or rek sai to see when she is powerful with the mass amount of fury shes able to gen by 25/per ability/auto. Also with most fury champs it is a very core aspect for success to make their kit function as effectively as possible, and with the E damage nerf you show if you built more twords ad as opposed to live, it doesnt look like the fury mechanic was expanded upon and just left kind of as a afterthought in her kit.

Lord Desert5/12/2017, 4:29:56 PM10 votes

Talking about Support items: What do you think about a Red/Control Ward Trinket similar to old item 3362? #GiveSupports6ItemSlots Ruby got the short end of the stick in the Quest update/could use some improvements, so it potentionally could store a Control Ward too (can be placed with shift+key).

KFC Owner5/12/2017, 4:32:48 PM9 votes

Will Rek'Sai ultimate still grant her bonus attack speed?

Supes5/12/2017, 5:17:45 PM8 votes

Heya Meddler,

I absolutely LOVE the fact that Leblanc has a secondary, less directly impactful ulti on a separate cooldown from her primary ultimate. Is there any opportunity for the same to be done with Rek'sai regarding her old ultimate? A way to still have a global presence?

I would hate to see the whole "Rek'sai could always be lurking" aspect of her champion fantasy gone.

All the best!

Winterkill5/12/2017, 6:39:33 PM8 votes

You are still not addressing the issue, Meddler. Your team even said it yourselves.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/free-rotation/some-thoughts-support

  • Itemization - Are support items sufficiently compelling or does power progression as a support often feel worse than other roles?

How did adding the quests really make a difference? You just added another skill point, another shield, and another movement speed mechanic. Support champions survived this long without an extra skillpoint. You added another shield to be procced when champions already have it in their kit and with CoC. You added more movement speed on champions that are already hard to kill because of their utility and cc . . . and half of them can already speed themselves up. Again, how did this improve anything, make supports more engaging, added depth to the character and role, and really feel like we earned a reward?


You really need to change how shields/heals increases are earned. Just as tanky supports are required to use their abilities to proc things and make flashy plays, Enchanters should have to do the same. Make the Enchanter have to damage someone first before they give the Ardent Censer buff and have their shields/heals increased on this item. I mean obviously there are better ways to do it but this is just an example. Your lazy work and "I don't care attitude" towards the Support role throughout the years is still continuing. You still have not made the role more engaging with champions, items and mechanics. You still have not made the role more attractive to players. You still are talking about making numbers buffs and not addressing champion distinctiveness and unique itemization. I really wish there was ONE person on your Development team that care about the role. You keep talking about doing all of this stuff for the Support role the past few years, and you give us starting Support item quests that don't really give that great rewards if it comes down to it.


Again, I am telling you this. You really need to work on Enchanters and make them more distinct and interesting to play. I really cannot understand how you think every single Enchanter character is distinct and interesting to play, when they all build the same thing, have one damage ability, a mechanic to speed someone up, the same heal/shield that is not done in a unique way like newer Support champions, and more.

I want my favorite champions to receive the same treatment you give new champions. I want my favorite champions to engage more with their teammates and themselves other than just sitting in the back and pressing a shield/heal button. I want my favorite champions lore, fantasy, and theme to be really imagined in their kits and gameplay. I want my favorite champions to be different than every other Enchanter in their role that does the same thing and builds the same thing.


I am asking this again, for the 15+ time Meddler. Do you care about making the role more distinct, interesting, rewarding, properly fleshed out lore and theme wise, and more? You have YET to show any of us that you are doing this. Here you are talking about increasing the number values of items to make them feel more rewarding. We are going to have the same problems if you keep putting a bandaid on it. Fix the noninteractive itemization and find a way to make shield/heal enhancing more interactive than just buying an item. Make Enchanter Supports more engaging, interactive and distinct with their kits, gameplay, and themes.

I don't expect a response. I expect tons of hate and downvotes. I expect comments about how if the champion is great in LCS, that means they are fully fleshed out champions and fantastic as a champion both lore, gameplay, and theme. No one can sit here and deny my dedication to the champions I want to be changed and the role I want to be better. Riot Games, you have made the Support role very bland, not engaging enough, generalized almost every single Enchanter Support, and ignored feedback to make the role, itemization, and champions more interesting. You have made newer champions have more engaging and interesting ways to use their shields/heals and you even did it with Taric. Why can't you do the same for the following:

Janna Karma Lulu Sona

Really flesh out their roles, themes, and gameplay. Really make them more engaging with their abilities like you did with newer champions and Taric. Really actually care about the champion's lore, theme, and gameplay and not how well some player in the tournament scene does with them. In the end, these players that play them in the tournament world will take the time to learn any champion and make them look awesome. What is the excuse now to ignore making itemization more interactive, Enchanters more distinct and interesting to play, finding a way to make shields/heals on Enchanters more interactive? The answer is another Ryze rework. I don't want to sit in the back and spam heal/shield and build items to further myself spamming heal/shield.

summoner 11

As always, stay frosty.

  • Wintertechnics.
iahim985/12/2017, 4:14:57 PM7 votes

Meddler about thornmail possible changes (if it still matters):

  1. a passive that reduces life stealed from you by 50% (not grevous wound) 2.make its damage be true damage (will prob need some small nerf to its dmg, but adc's don't have high base mr anyway), as there are many cases where they built mr against your AP dealers or you are an magic dealer yourself and makes the buy weaker by default.

Also saw an idea of a drake on surr@20 for a drake that increases mr/armor %, you probably already tried this (as its pretty simple), but just want to make sure as I like the idea.

Linna Excel5/12/2017, 4:45:29 PM7 votes

Would it be possible to add a dragon that turned an entire wave of minions into a single drake? It'd give gold to the nearby teammates of whoever killed it. Taking multiple of that type of dragon makes the drakes stronger and if you get 3 dragons, the drakes turn into ranged damage dealers.

KFC Owner5/12/2017, 4:36:21 PM7 votes

One more question, and its an important one!

Now that her ult isnt a TP kinda ult anymore, where will you move her jetski animation that was in her ult? It would be great if it was in her homeguard animation!

Deep Terror Nami5/12/2017, 4:03:30 PM7 votes

Got a general idea how long Rek'sai's Ult mark might last?

Also, for the support items, could we consider making other items flashier (more obvious benefits) rather than nerfing down the ones that are fun because the benefits are apparent? Think of them just like champions; even if Redemption and Locket weren't that great, people want them because their power is very visible, unlike a Censer or Frozen Heart. I'm looking for something like putting more of Censer's power in the first attack the buffed ally uses and giving that attack some extra flair, adding a lightning effect to high damage dealt with Zeke's bonus activated, and 120 seconds is still too long for Mikael's.

Decrit5/12/2017, 5:17:39 PM6 votes

About Rek'Sai, what about marking the champion that destroys ehr borrows? She will depend a lot on them for mobility and presence now, and it also gives a mean to punish said champions. Also, without the ability to proc it from distance outside of borrowed Q it sounds like a nerfed diana's ult with a cast time.

I might use the term improperly, but it sounds clunky to have to be borrowed, have to use Q to hit somebody and then have to cast a spell for one second. And this supposing you can use it while borrowed, otherwise it sounds much worse to use. I know it' s obviously too much early to say this, just pointing out some potential issues.

Sahn Uzal5/12/2017, 4:18:18 PM5 votes

That Rek'Sai ult seems pretty interesting, She's definetly gonna be really good at sticking to people who try to flash away from her. Also, Prey Seeker (That's what Burrowed Q is called, right?) > R sounds pretty mean as a way to get into the fight.

Curious how these changes will turn out!

TomiMan75/13/2017, 5:07:15 PM5 votes

Hi Meddler,

With the recent support quest I thought about giving support just a tiny little bit more gold for providing vision for the team. For example every time, with like a 10 second cooldown per enemy, if a ward spots an enemy, it would give like 5 coins to the person who placed the ward. To not to make it overpowered to those who dont build wardstones it would only work if the wards was placed using a wardstone or a warding support item. This would (or could) encourage ppl to build sightstones more. Also those who builds support items could have a 7th item slot that could hold a pink ward and only a pink ward maybe 1 or 2max? I even think that a 7th item slot for storing consumables and consumables only, could be benefitial for late game if for example a full build ad carry wants to place a pink ward or just wants to have a potion, or healtpotion but doesnt really has the place for it, or in the potions case doesnt wants to consume it right when he or she spawns. Any thoughts? :)

Sexy Jack Rabbit5/12/2017, 11:48:10 PM4 votes

Can you confirm that Rek'sai current ult animation for Pool party will be recycled??

Monkeytender5/12/2017, 4:07:32 PM4 votes

Speaking of support items, is there a general consensus on how the updated starting items + quests are performing? Particularly the item quests - my experience with the spellthief line is that the move speed buff is pretty hard to notice, it's possible that'll become more obvious after more games though. And I gotta say, I like the coin collecting mini game way more than I thought I would, both playing with it and against it (landing Nami bubbles against a Draven and a coin support is a dream come true)

Toastersaot5/12/2017, 4:32:30 PM3 votes

Just a question about item 3123 . Many people have complained about this item, and as a Vladimir main I hate it. However, I know it is an important tool for the balance team to keep some sustain champions in line. However, one auto attack to cut out 40% of a champion's healing seems a bit strong for the price of 800 gold. I remember seeing it's price being increased to 1000 gold on the PBE at some point, and I wanted to ask if you have any ideas or changes in the Pipeline right now. Thank you!

Solidair35/12/2017, 4:20:34 PM3 votes

Meddler, can you tell us why the elixir point from coin's quest won't let you get a skill for the next level? AS in, why I can't at level 8 get my rank 5 skill point I'd normally get at level 9?

It's kind of unsatisfying the way it is currently, when I thought I'd be getting rank 2 ult earlier or rank 5 base skill, etc.

Spideraxe5/12/2017, 4:02:36 PM2 votes

Question on Rek'Sai, how does BeatPunchBeef feel about these changes

swampert9195/12/2017, 7:43:39 PM1 votes

I really like the idea of the new ult for rek'sai... she should feel like an inescapable animal like in her teaser trailer so this change does capture this so much better....good job on that.

Also quick question... what's happening with tremor sense... you haven't mentioned it here but I feel like that was the main thing which made her so different in pro play to solo Q so if the goal is to make her easier to balance in pro play I'm guessing tremor sense has to have at least small changes coming.

DCYOUNG8885/12/2017, 5:17:37 PM1 votes

Will Rek'sai's recommended item build be updated too once the update is released (e.g. cinderhulk to warrior)?