DEV BLOG: Marksman Itemization

RiotRiot Reinboom·11/4/2015, 7:06:28 PM·1 votes·39,912 views

Hello all! Riot Reinboom here to bring you a look into the thoughts behind the Marksman itemization changes this preseason. :D

To jump straight to the point, Marksmen have a number of pain points in the game right now. There’s a distinct lack of individuality between Marksmen. For most, their items are incredibly prescriptive and there’s not a lot of deviation. Generally, as a class, they suffer from high team demands without a lot of self expression to work within those demands.

The major thread woven between most of these issues is a distinct lack of meaningful choice.

  • Meaningful Choice

We’ve mentioned Meaningful Choice before.

What’s most important here however is the method to achieving meaningful choice (rather than just choice). For Marksman items, we tackled this with three different strategies: “Autonomy”, “Reaction”, and “Prediction”.

Autonomy. Autonomy as a choice is represented by the tradeoff of multiple fantasies (whether they be gameplay fantasies, thematics, or anything you can form a personal attachment to). Feeling attached to Statikk Shiv because you personally value wave clear and are willing to sacrifice your other options for it, is an aspect of autonomy shown in item form.

Reaction. Reaction as a choice is represented by your capability to solve a problem presented to you. There are multiple types of reaction. For these changes, we’ll be focusing on responses to your opponents in the items they build, the champions they pick, and the needs of your team.

Planning. Planning as a choice is represented by the tactical and strategic goals you create for individual games. This can be seen by decisions on how you or your team should address each fight (and then building to work within that understanding), or the order for which you build your components, such as getting a Pick Axe to prep for your Last Whisper as you wait for your opponent to inevitably build armor.

  • Supporting Variety

When it comes to supporting more options for Marksman, we often run into a difficult problem we call “The Marksman Damage Optimization Problem.” Marksmans item choices have classically been guided by a very simple and direct point of output: “How can I do the most damage with the options presented to me?”

We’re operating under the assumption that this problem is fundamental to Marksman and their role within League. There are a number of reasons for this.

In games (not just League) single points of optimization, when that point can empower itself, tend to be notably strong. In Marksman’s case, their single point of optimization is damage. This is primarily caused by their damage being reliable via ranged auto-attacks, meaning they can leverage positioning (which is free) as a primary defense.

However, we feel like this identity is clear for Marksman. This type of distinct identity allows League to work as a team game, where each individual has their contribution. So in order to support keeping what makes a Marksman a Marksman while still offering choice, we’ll be exploring a different route: While picking up the stats that give Marksman their damage, we should offer choices among those items along the way.

You can see this already in the game with the choice posed by Phantom Dancer and Statikk Shiv. Unfortunately, the nuance of this choice can be hard to appreciate (am I behind, or could be behind in gold?), and even then there’s not a lot of these types of selections.

  • The Changing Landscape

To wrap it altogether, choices that end up just being damage optimization tests aren’t great. But that’s the expectation of a Marksman. And they have core needs on top of core needs built out of natural consumption of “a lot of different stats.”

The direction we went with to introduce meaningful choice to these restrictions is the idea of “horizontal expansion.” Take the model presented by the current system, and diversify within those bounds. Your options for lifesteal need to be greater than a single item. The items that define a Marksman’s play pattern should expand beyond just “awesome auto attacks.” Your options available for who you can target should be greater than “always buy Last Whisper.”


Identity Who am I? Do I autoattack quite a bit? Okay, Infinity Edge. Maybe I autoattack a lot? Infinity Edge. No, seriously, autoattacks are my jam and I will hear nothing less. Fine, Blade of the Ruined King.

Not a lot there.

There’s a few valid ways of addressing this: we could push more differences between the auto attacks ( see the roster devblog ), or we could push some Marksman to be empowered by their abilities.

Identity items highlight and specialize the choices you made at champion select. Once again, “Who am I?” We don’t feel like in the current landscape the more caster-like Marksman are well served by this idea. Enter: Essence Reaver.

Essence Reaver is being changed to offer caster marksman access to a stat they’ve desired, but could never really (or rarely) fully utilize: Cooldown Reduction.

Essence Reaver now has the capability to generate you up to 30% Cooldown Reduction by leveraging the Critical Strike Chance available from other Marksman items. We you to feel comfortable making the same damage offers, choices, and expectations from the rest of the Marksman items while being able to uniquely leverage what your champion pick offered.


Multiplier

Statikk Shiv or Phantom Dancer. Am I behind or am I ahead?

There’s a lot of possible room with these items, except that Phantom Dancer is the poster child for TMDOP (“The Marksman Damage Optimization Problem,” remember?).

So we’re changing that. And we’re widening what it means to be a multiplier item.

In addition to be the damage curve definers, the pointed tip at the end of your two item spike, multipliers are getting an additional identity: “How should I fight?” This is a choice grounded primarily within autonomy (“What works best for me?”) as well as reaction (“What works best for my team?”).

We divided this choice into four large branches: Phantom Dancer: I should skirmish and duel. Hurricane: I want to team fight and wombo. Statikk Shiv: I must push. Rapid Firecannon: I need to siege.


Situational Offense

Last Whisper highlights an interesting problem. The usage of total penetration meant that even against champions not buying armor, Last Whisper was actually at least a +10% physical damage amp. This was actually a “generally useful” item masquerading under the guise of a tank killer.

We want to break the above expectations to make selective offense a little less automatic while, at the same time, making it easier to pick up a response when it’s necessary. Selective offensive items are now guided by their components and what you’re giving up, while being significantly more targeted than the current Last Whisper.

The components: Last Whisper: I need to get through their bonus armor. Executioner’s Calling: I need to stuff their life steal or health gain. Giant Slayer: I need to climb over their mountain of health.

These items can be combined up, with a final selection of which type of selection are you leaving out: Lord Dominik’s Regards: A combination of Last Whisper and Giant Slayer **Mortal Reminder: **A combination of Last Whisper and Executioner’s Calling

Do note the change from total to bonus armor penetration, as all of these are still armor pen items at heart. It bears repeating: we do not want these items to be generalist damage purchases. This is also why we split the use case of Mortal Reminder (taking out high sustain targets like enemy marksmen, Swain, Mundo, etc) and Lord Dominik’s Regards (tank busting). If you find you don’t need the situational offense these items bring (or nobody’s building any armor!), maybe you can look into picking up another multiplier, or some...


Situational Defense

The key defense favored by Marksman is lifesteal, but there’s not a lot available here so all Marksman default to the same purchase: The Bloodthirster. This stat is so core that it actively pushes aside all other defensive choices until it’s covered.

We’re running with that idea. For Marksman, lifesteal means defense. The result is all the items in this category provide enough lifesteal before letting you branch into the types of defenses you should otherwise situationally take.

The Bloodthirster: I need to sustain through everything Death’s Dance: I need to get burst off me long enough to hit Mercurial Scimitar: I need to be free (of CC)


  • Going Forward There’s a lot of new abilities and interactions presented by the changed items, and we don’t believe we have every one of these ironed out.

League of Legends hasn’t been tuned to the idea that some Marksman will get 40% Cooldown Reduction, for example, and it’s impossible to know the full effects of this.

We’ll be watching diligently to identify what’s problematic and what’s not!

79 Comments

Hellioning11/4/2015, 8:41:06 PM6 votes

Why does Morello's have a conditional GW, while Executioner's has it on every physical hit?

MudintheWater11/4/2015, 7:31:53 PM5 votes

In regards to the new ER I just find it strange that mages who aren't viable without 40% CDR are going to lose 5% cdr from masteries (because realistically they will all go 18/12) and only get 20% cdr from individual items while marksmen can get 30% from one now.

Mages: Season 5: scaling CDR glyphs + masteries plus one 20% cdr item = 40% cdr. Season 6: scaling CDR glyphs plus one cdr item = 35% cdr. Scaling glyphs plus cdr from masteries 12/18/0) plus cdr item = 40% cdr (still 5% short of cap)

If you are a mage with cdr glyphs and want to hit the cdr cap with one item there is no mastery setup in S6 that doesn't require you also use some CDR Quints.

With the new ER marksmen casters won't have that issue.

Marksmen: Season 5: cdr rush not a thing Season 6: 30% CDR from one item, only need a few scaling cdr glphys to get to 40, or all 9 + (12/18/0) to get to 45%.

The new cooldown setup means that marksmen are going to easily hit 40% or 45% CDR with just one item, allowing them to use quints offensively or defensively, while to do so with mages is going to require several CDR items (less damage output) or sacrificing more quints to CDR.

Why give so much power to that item? Marksmen aren't the only casters, but with the new ER they are the only casters that will easily hit the CDR cap with only one CDR item.

Pyro11/4/2015, 8:16:19 PM4 votes

There's a huge post sitting on the frontpage of Boards currently that points out issues with the whole itemization. Are you guys going to address it or shall I rephrase my questions here?


Well, I'm gonna sum it up anyway:

  1. Why is every single "multiplier" item a Zeal+Dagger upgrade? Couldn't you guys devise an alternative component building at least into PD (which loses the persistent % MS from Zeal anyway)
  2. Why are the item recipes for Shiv and Firecannon identical? Couldn't Firecannon build out of something different than Zeal (Cloak + Dagger, anything)?
  3. Why does Executioner's Calling proc without any prerequisition like the one Morellonomicon has?
  4. Why is BT's combine cost so atrociously high (1500g)?
  5. Do you really think BT will be able to compete with Mercurial Scimitar, which has a better build path, costs the same, provides the same AD and has the invaluable QSS active?
  6. Why do both of the LW upgrades provide the same stats? Couldn't one of them have some AS or crit, to make the decision more than one-dimensional?
  7. Why did you guys hit Black Cleaver so hard, taking off 100 health and making it cost 500 g more?
Irelia Bot11/5/2015, 2:33:00 AM4 votes

Can you please Fix wit's end to have 42 on hit magic damage like it always has for the universal answer, the loss of 1337 is bad enough.

Heck make the attack speed and MR 42 as well since they are both at 40.

I still want it to only give the owner MR and not shred enemy MR in season 2 with a lower price so it is an ideal item to rush on more champs when facing AP but I know that is unlikely to happen at this point.

Kurogaze11/4/2015, 8:21:20 PM4 votes

This post is a repeat because, the thread in which I posted it was closed shortly after I posted. Not really sure why, but I feel my question is even more on point in this thread: Riot's own developers have repeatedly said that giving an easy (reliable?) way to apply grievous wounds wasn't going to get in the game because it makes a whole class of champions too weak (Swain, Vladimir, Mundo, Olaf, Aatrox, Irelia, some Jax Builds, toplane Rengar, Volibear, Zac and all healing support, I probably missed a bunch though). But here is one that is also extremely easily applied (if I understood it right, all physical damage applies the effect, no matter how it was inflicted) What made you change your mind? Specifically, how do you plan to keep those champions viable when the enemy builds griveous wounds without being overpowered when the enemy lacks one?

Escanor v211/4/2015, 7:12:45 PM3 votes

With new items giving more defensive abilities, don't you worry that ADC will deal too much damage while receiving reduced damage?

Puddy11/4/2015, 8:09:27 PM2 votes

Were the goals with this marksmen overhaul to make them more flexible and powerful for the botlane, or to open them up to other roles? Any long term plans to make other botlane options more viable?

Deep Terror Nami11/4/2015, 7:27:32 PM2 votes

You got my hopes up when you said;

Supporting variety

I know this is about Marksmen, but for a split second it seemed like you meant Supporting is getting variety rather than variety being supported XD

Hellioning11/4/2015, 8:34:54 PM2 votes

Are you worried you're pushing crit too much? It's like almost every completed item in this update has some sort of crit on it. This is kinda worrying, both from a champion perspective (Ashe lives on dies based off her slow, and having that be RNG based will suck hard) and from a design perspective (that keystone that gives bonus lifesteal on crits is stupidly strong right now.)

Sneak Dog11/4/2015, 8:39:41 PM2 votes

Why do adcs only need to dedicate a single item slot to killing tanks?

Right now, adcs can go three standard damage items to murder squishies, one tank-busting item in the form of giantslayer, boots and a defensive item. Why are they allowed to nearly burst squishies like assassins, and melt tanks like no other in lategame? Shouldn't they have to decide who they are good at damaging?

Or am I overestimating the damage three offensive items will deal to a squishy champion? Or the effectiveness of Giant slayer? (historically, tanks have never been allowed to really be tanky towards adcs for long.) Or is Riot ok with adcs having such a lategame fantasy that it nullifies any tanks' lategame fantasy?

lostbob11711/4/2015, 7:24:09 PM2 votes

I think we need another option in the %Armon pen category.

Nightshade1711/4/2015, 8:42:11 PM2 votes

Have you considered how the new items may benefit non-Marksman champions unduly? As my friend attests on the PBE, Yasuo is now more than slightly unbalanced, thanks to some Masteries and things like Lord Dominik's? I get the feeling other AD assassins may have some edges over the competition now.

WeirWulf11/4/2015, 8:50:16 PM2 votes

Do you feel there is currently a bit of a cross over in the identity of Runaan's/Statikk Shiv? There have been a lot of changes so sorry if I have over looked something, but won't Runaan's be better for wave-clear? Don't get me wrong, both are really cool items, but I personally still feel statikk shiv doesn't have a clear identity.

(EDIT: I do have a suggestion if someone is interested in hearing it.)

Linna Excel11/4/2015, 9:15:03 PM2 votes

Reinboom, can I get your opinion on this: ER looks good but isn't.

I don't think ER is going to be the item you guys want it to because it still suffers the same flaws as before: build path and competition from other items.

ploki12211/4/2015, 9:23:21 PM2 votes

3 Questions :

  1. How do you plan on nerfing ES if it becomes problematic? I feel like the wording would make it awkward to reduce the CDR it gives (gives up to 10% based on other items, but no item gives less than 10%). Also, do you feel like ES is on the strong, weak or median side of things right now?

  2. Any comment on the state of Thresh vs Last Whisper?

  3. Don't you feel like keeping The Bloodthirster's shield kinda conflicts with Death's Dance intended ability of preventing burst? Sinec you usually have a low amount of health as an ADC, I feel like a flat renewable shield is often much better than simply delaying the damage.

Kangaax11/4/2015, 9:30:20 PM2 votes

Simple question: when building LW upgrades, you grouped it with executionner's calling and giant slayer, with one upgrade for each. Why did you leave out the executionner's calling + giant slayer combination (which could be itemized against swain, vlad, or in general in games where everybody goes MR and health)?

Mirkwoodia11/4/2015, 9:38:28 PM2 votes

You didn't add in the ghostblade changes, that's still not aimed for marksmen then is it? I thought it could one day be the "flat pen" item for marksmen

Jeddy01711/4/2015, 7:13:57 PM2 votes

Any reason why fighter items like item 3156 item 3071 or item 3078 were changed to favor Marksmen?