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[ FOLLOWUP] Solo Lane Mordekaiser Update

RiotStatikk·12/12/2015, 1:46:07 AM·1 votes·25,723 views

Hey guys,

As promised, I was able to sync up with the other design leads to align on our current assessment and thinking on Solo Morde. Unfortunately, this won't exactly be happy news, but it's important for us to be honest with you guys on our analysis and direction.

So here's our thoughts on Solo Morde:

Solo Morde currently has a very brittle, unhealthy gameplay pattern
Majority of his gameplay is unavoidable and inevitable (especially for melee opponents) - Morde can often feel like a brick wall of statistics where neither sides' actions or skill matter
Morde has poor fallback patterns - he lacks effective ways to respond or contribute meaningfully when he gets behind due to his pure damage focus
Pushing Morde into the duo lane helps remedy a lot of these issues by adding teammate and enemy interactions into the mix
Morde's (or his opponents') success cases are much more nuanced and variable in a duo lane - many more elements are at play
Morde's kit naturally lends itself to duo lane interactions
Unlike champions like Garen who are completely self-focused, Morde has tools like an ally-shield and extreme dependence on ally utility like CC to succeed
Although very melee, Morde's E gives him some ability to engage with and shrug off ranged opponents
Morde's juiciest and primary R targets are Marksmen who he can consistently encounter in the duo lane
Morde will continue to be primarily balanced around his duo lane potential
Pushing Morde into the duo lane gives him a unique and interesting place in the League roster
We strive to keep Solo Morde viable as an alternative playstyle, and want to look for ways to add or improve his gameplay health in solo lanes

Currently, we see Morde as a bit on the weak side as a whole, so we're looking into potential changes to bump his power up a bit across the board in the near future. We are also looking at opportunities to experiment with giving Morde healthier ways to interact in the solo lane so that we can better tune him between the different playstyles.

Once again, I know this is not the most exciting news for some, but it is our honest direction. I'll try to stop by to clarify or elaborate on any points that need it.

119 Comments

ArithianFlame12/12/2015, 1:54:05 AM30 votes

Very brittle, unhealthy gameplay pattern

You mean like outleveling the enemy botlane with a shoe-horned passive, and playing whackamole with that utterly broken Q?

Buffs. Just what he needs. And here I've been wishing I had another champion for all of these unused bans.

It's like you didn't learn from his perma-ban status at LCS that nobody wants this cancer viable. Hurry up and mercy kill him so he gets reworked again.

Malicious Metal12/12/2015, 7:31:53 AM29 votes

You know why Mordekaiser's Solo lane used to be so "unhealthy"?

Because besides him not really interacting with his opponents he lacked windows of power. Darius has his Noxian Might Garen got his Villain Mechanic Skarner has his Spires Ryze got his passive

Mordekaiser could work as a solo laner if he'd be given windows of power where he'd excel in while giving ways to his opponents to abuse the downtime of said power.

Somewhere along the lines of nerfing his shield gain down to 10-20% but making his W increase his shield gain over its duration and maybe give him MR/Armor to make the best out of the shield he'll gain.

I think this is where you guys could definitely work on.

Also, His Base stats are so laughably weak that he gets bullied by almost anyone in lane. I'm not asking for giving him Darius levels of health (2300) but his low base MS, Armor and Health make him susceptible to ganks, especially top. Bumping his health a bit up wouldn't hurt all that much I guess.

Edit; I've reached the point where I think a full blown rework's NEEDED. Heck, I wouldn't even mind him losing all of his abilities as long as he finally lives up to his champion vision. His skills are all unsatisfying and he's become way more clunky, especially his clone. Just give him a real rework

Just scrap his kit and come up with something that feels similar but delivers. Look at poppy's new passive, similar feel, way more healthy and kinda more satisfying.

F1eshandB1ood12/12/2015, 3:20:08 AM25 votes

First off, as a once-avid Morde player, if you really want to balance him in a duo lane:

First: remove any bonus exp he gets (You had mentioned earlier that it may be the case that you do that depending on further testing), the sheer fact that Morde needs an uninteractive, silly thing like that in order to make him even playable in that situation implies that something is wrong.
Second: Remove that stupid dragon ghost from his ult. I don't think there was ever a single serious Morde player who actually enjoyed that change (or at least I certainly didn't). The problem is that if Morde gets dragon, a team-wide buff objective, then he ALSO gets at least one tower and maybe a kill or two. It is WAY too much power loaded into a single skill when he doesn't really need it.

If it really is absolutely necessary, at least make it so that Morde has to cast his ult on dragon to actually capture it, so at least there is some resemblance of risk/tradeoff/decision making. Simply autoing the dragon once and walking away in order to get that kind of massive boost in power seems like something that was majorly overlooked.

Third: PLEASE for all that is unholy and Mordekaiser-esque, STOP balancing Morde around his ultimate. The defining characteristic of Morde, playing as him, playing against him, and the entire possibility that he could even be considered a juggernaut is HIS PASSIVE SHIELD. Quit loading more and more power into his ult, and making his shield the gimmick What Morde truly needs is a whole redefining on how his shield works for him, and then basing his kit around that.

Honestly, Morde needs a full-blown rework. Again. He needed one before this rework, and he certainly needs one now. I honestly don't mind playing Morde in a bot lane, I just do not agree with how it was done. In order to make Morde less of a binary and simple champion, what he really needs is interesting ability interaction (both with enemies and his own abilities), a thought-provoking means of counterplay (not simply "kiting"), and abilities that involve a certain degree of skill to use most effectively. I understand that this is extremely hard to pull off without giving Morde CC, mobility, or absurd gimmicks (regular gimmicks are fine, just not dragon-sized ones) but I believe that it can be done because Rito has done such an excellent job with so many other characters and reworks. But sometimes you need to go back to the drawing board.

Hellioning12/12/2015, 2:28:34 AM24 votes

Riot, if you have to give someone extra XP in order to have them function, you have made mistakes.

Retillin12/12/2015, 2:10:44 AM23 votes

It's like Riot has just stuck their fingers in their ears and ignored player feedback. I'm not just talking the boards, but the pros (hated duo lane Morde) and the players (lowest play/win rate in every region in the world if I am not mistaken).

This shows that, you (at Riot) have no clue what to do with him. And instead of just making him an AP juggernaut (like Garne or Darius) feel the need to force a game style onto a champion that does not fit that style. (as we have seen with his play numbers)

When people would rather take a really bad Morde solo instead of his "intended" role of duo, maybe you need to re-think your stance. You have done such things with Annie support. You allowed the players to play her where THEY wished, not where you wished.

Pyrithegethon12/12/2015, 2:37:21 AM20 votes

"Mord isnt healthy in a solo lane so we will make him unhealthy in a duo lane instead."

THEJJSLAY12/12/2015, 1:59:18 AM17 votes

This is awful in every way shape and form " We decided we wanted a melee adc so instead of releasing a new champ we fucked an existing older champ with a rusty rake so that he would fit in bot and only in bot."

There is just so much you can do with morde other than ruin him this makes me sick. This comments going to be deleted because anything that doesn't agree with riot is deleted or ignored so whatever

Keevalroy12/12/2015, 3:52:33 AM11 votes

GET. HIM. OUT. OF. BOT!

This rework was a miserable failure, and this exact defeatist mentality only proves it. He doesn't belong in bot lane - no one but Riot wants him to be down there and you still don't seem to understand how terrible of an idea this is. You have no idea how to make him healthy because this kit is a clusterfuck of bad ideas combined with CertainlyT's inability to take feedback seriously when he sets his mind on something. Revert the rework and start over, but this time, how about you actually listen to Morde's fanbase?

Lovely Pants12/12/2015, 3:02:53 AM11 votes

So, I'm not a Mordekaiser player, and I have never particularly enjoyed playing as, with, or against the champion in any of his incarnations. My only interest in this discussion is that I am a support main (when I eventually, hopefully do finally reclaim a computer setup that is reliable enough to play the game for real again) and therefore the health of the duo lane impacts my enjoyment of the game.

Just getting that statement out of the way. I have a couple of rambling questions I'd like made in regards to my particular perspective.

I know it's probably not in the cards for the short term, but do you think Mordekaiser is going to need a more extensive rework to make him a livable experience in the duo lane? More precisely, do you intend to alter his "ball of stats" feeling in the long run?

As a support player, I was overjoyed to see some new depth added to the marksman class recently. I guess this is the opposite side of the grudge which solo Mordekaiser players would feel being tethered to me, but it doesn't particularly excite me to have Mordekaiser as a lane partner. The "point your statball in a direction and help them not die" gameplay can be fun later in the game at sporadic intervals when this kind of champion which is usually found alone in top lane finally has some relevance on your life, but I think he feels like a bit of a drudge to play beside during the laning phase compared to who my alternative partners might be.

If you did find that Mordekaiser needs a really hefty rework to the point of losing significantly more traditional elements to really feel healthy in the duo lane experience, would you instead be more inclined to try rebuilding the champion towards his solo lane roots or do you think there is a better opportunity to be explored in the duo lane?

Baron Von Bangin12/12/2015, 3:38:00 AM10 votes

I see you're taking the Cass route on this one. The "fuck you, we're keeping this shit rework no matter what!" approach.

Can't you just garbage can him and make Morde a solo lane juggernaut like god intended?

Kobold12/12/2015, 2:09:02 AM9 votes

for the Next discussion you have could you please record it in video forms so that players know a discussion actually happened.

From the way I read your post it sounded like a discussion never happened and was all of 2 people whom already had their minds made up before even looking into the complaints. Just saying.

Rhodaan12/12/2015, 7:55:51 AM8 votes

Umm....I think the fact that the Mordekaiser update was a failure should be accepted. His Juggernaut update was a miss, so either a full rework or something should be scheduled up, IMO. The only thing the update achieved was to make Morde unappealing to the ones that actually played the old Morde, mostly. A VU is badly needed for him anyways, so doing a "Gangplank level" rework should be something that should be considered.

Kaeblen12/12/2015, 8:48:11 PM7 votes

Unlike champions like Garen who are completely self-focused, Morde has tools like an ally-shield and extreme dependence on ally utility like CC to succeed

wait, what? are u talking about http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.24.1/img/spell/MordekaiserCreepingDeathCast.png ? You know you took the armor and MR off of that right? If you want to say heal then say that, but it's nothing resembling a ally-shield anymore.

Stars Shaper12/12/2015, 9:37:02 AM7 votes

First of all thanks for exposing your thinking about this matter, the more the insight from you the more we players will be understandable :P

I think there are many points that are odd in his rework expecially because they seems in contrast to what your (as Riot) intentions were with him.

You wanted him to be a constant damage dealer with the "if you stay in melee he will kill you" thematic. Fair enough, but what was delivered in the end was a huge burst opportunity on something that required enemy mionions to be around and have flash off CD.
You wanted him to be in a duo lane and for this you made his kit heavily reliant on the presence of a team mate. Now, shouldn't any kit be complete by itself and then shine in a duo/group situation if you want to build a balanced character?
His kit doesn't deliver his fantasy, in my opinion as a Juggernaut of Death Mordekaiser should be the slow heavy armored thing coming for you and if you don't get the hell out of there you're going to regret it. So, instead of having a double weakness of CC + enemy mobility wouldn't it be better to make him less subsceptible to CCs and more to mobility? Also wouldn't this solution allow him to have a less bursty and more continous damage pattern?

Adding to point 3, his base stats are really low for some1 that should be focusd on tankiness.

SettDownShutUp12/14/2015, 9:24:54 PM6 votes

Can I just say, OF COURSE Mordekaiser's kit naturally lends itself to duo lane, you made the kit. Okay, so not you but you get the idea. This stuck out to me specifically, I wanted to address it first and foremost.

Also, you could... y'know, NOT push mordekaiser into botlane, maybe stop trying to force this... Argh, this is really hard not to immediately turn into a spiny angry little ball of frustration.

Just, please, add mordekaiser to the full rework list for 2016. I don't even care if it's not visual, shen-level if need be. And for the love of god please keep him in a single lane. Thematically it fits, historically it's what's expected and most importantly, there is still a crap ton of players who are just...

No one wants this! NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS.

Moobeat12/12/2015, 2:42:01 AM5 votes

On the pbe, looks like Mordekaiser can w on minions again. Any additional context ?

terkmc12/13/2015, 4:27:12 PM5 votes

This entire thread solves nothing. There has been no discussion or changes made. Despite overwhelming majority pushing for solo-Morde, Riot still put their fingers in their ears screaming LA-LA-LA and devoting all their manpower to duo-lane Morde for some god-forsaken reason

Earl Eulrich12/12/2015, 2:06:11 AM5 votes

So...what about jungle-morde? maybe have his ult interact with red/bluebuff aswell? I think that could be a healthy "solo"-setting for him, if laning seems not an option.

warpenguin55512/12/2015, 3:03:21 AM4 votes

Why did you guys make morde the Botlane carry instead of somebody like a tryndamere or nasus? Both of them could have filled the melee carry much better imho

VoydHunter12/14/2015, 5:55:49 PM4 votes

It's nice that morde didn't get swept under a rug after he was ruined. It's also nice that his w is getting some functionality soon (finally!). There is a bigger problem here though imo. We are getting yet another explanation why duo lane morde has to exist no matter how horrible morde players think it is. His old play style is broken? I'll take your word for it. However in your attempt to preserve the morde feel you shoved him bot lane and changed his kit enough to strip him of his identity...quite frankly I'm not getting the morde feel at all. He functions like a completely different champ. Yet you still want to keep him bot lane as kiting practice? He is a joke....running around getting kited and laughed at by both enemies and allies. It's a train-wreck. Stop worrying about preserving morde because there is nothing to preserve. I don't know how many people will agree with me but instead of maintaining this pathetic iteration of his identity, I would rather you rebuild morde into a solo lane juggernaut that has some feel of the old morde but not necessarily the same kit. Bot lane morde still feels like a giant middle finger to me. Even before the nerf when he was considered extremely strong, he just wasn't satisfying to play as. In the Sion rework riot pulled off a miracle. Such a different kit yet he still feels kind of like a the old sion. Can't you do something like that with morde? If my post seems hostile I apologize I don't intend that at all. I just feel strongly about the current state of mordekaiser.

Weenie Lord Shen1/2/2016, 2:25:45 AM2 votes

The odd thing about Mordekaiser is that his in-game clashes so much with how he's depicted in lore. You have a guy who's undying, because no matter how many times they tear him apart, he comes right back to life because of his remains.

Now you have gone from the man using the Black Mist to his benefits and coming back from the dead no matter how many times you try banishing him.

To a guy who is stuck with a duo lane partner to really make him shine. And when he does it's in an unhealthy manner.

I think it's in the best interest of everyone that you just do a full rework. His fantasy should be of a one-man wrecking crew, a true warlord as he was depicted. He also just needs base stat buffs. His movement speed is just downright atrocious, and can't catch up to people without having to rely on other people. That's not how Mordekaiser works as a character, and should not work like that in terms of gameplay either. He's slow, clunky, and just overall weird. He needs a full rework, a new model even to make his slow movements look more smooth like Garen or Illaoi.

Do something with the Black Mist even. We keep hearing about how he has the ability to enhance his powers through the use of the Black Mist, yet we don't get to really see it put to action. We get the satisfaction of "no escape" from Thresh, the fast moving onslaught of terror that's Hecarim (or at least USE to), and the powerful magics of Karthus (also use to). Kalista's concept of binding together as a contract for vengeance is also clearly conveyed in the game, yet Mordekaiser is the odd man out. You talked about how spamming E and building glass mage was contradictory to this man and yet not only our we increasing his AP scaling ratios_ yet again but now we're buffing the E as well._

It's just silly to try and rework him, get something wrong, and then try to buff him only to have him slowly inch back to square 1. You may just have to change his abilities around. Keep the Q for sure, but maybe change the E a bit, and even the W. Throw in the Black Mist too to convey who he is. Hell, even Leoric's passive from Heroes of the Storm, or even Leoric as a whole would be a good reference to how Mordekaiser should feel.

exe312/12/2015, 4:27:22 AM2 votes

I hope you guys do one of these for Cassiopeia as her rework left her in a horrible position satisfaction wise for those who used to love her. I'm interested in what you have to say about my former #1 favorite champion in the game.

"Morde has poor fallback patterns - he lacks effective ways to respond or contribute meaningfully when he gets behind due to his pure damage focus"

When you say fallback patterns do you mean ways that he can farm and function in lane if behind or ways that he can contribute to team fights if he's behind? If the former I find this a strange comment given how much top lane champions lack falllbacks when behind and when someone does have fallback patterns (eg: Gragas farming with Q) they get nerfed (hence how he got pushed out of top and into jungle).

LocoPineapples12/12/2015, 8:04:56 PM2 votes

I understand the duo lane juggernaut is a niche that's yet to be filled, but.. does anyone really want it, exactly? Does anyone want to deal with a bot lane that's unhealthy for both sides? This rework was a failure, in my honest opinion. His Q diverted all power from his stats and other abilities, his preferred lane is full of carries who can kite him and easily wittle him down, and his ult is a shadow of his former self. He could have been a DOT juggernaut sent mid or something/ This kind of thing should have been implemented for a new champion, not an existing champ that already had a dedicated player base. Morde was my main, and this gutted him for me. It took away the champion I was most comfortable playing for a gimmick that created an awful experience for the playerbase. I'm not as articulate as Malicious Metal, but this is my stance on it. I've yet to see any true positive responses from this rework.

TWGdabeast12/12/2015, 11:17:27 PM2 votes

Whelp... as a Morde player I believe We should look at him thematically.

Thematically: he is a slow, lumbering tank who wants to smash your face.

How he is as now: nick enemies with E and only go in if your cetain of obliterating the enemy, else your gonna be kited to death running at or away from them.

Please... If you are looking at rebuilding his character, ( as his character now is in my opinion, in shambles) consider giving him some form of cc.

I much prefered the solo lane morde. Duo lane morde was an OK experiment at best... but The Iron Revenant shouldn't need help from a friendly buddy.

MAKE a new champion built to be a duo laner melee (take the role of adc) and build off of that individual. surely there is a better kit for such a role. IT SURE AS HELL ISN'T MORDEKAISER. The reply's i'm seeing suggest as much.

DON'T change a previous champion who needs a rework to solidify himself and clear out his toxicity/ bad play style or play patterns.

FIXING MORDE =/= NEW ROLE

FIXING MORDE = MORDE FEELS GOOD TO PLAY AGAINST/ AS / (ON A TEAM) WITH.

( well that turned into a rant fast... sorry)

Bobo11312/15/2015, 1:13:44 AM2 votes

I guess the best way to fix more is to undo some of the changes? Rekindling the flame that was Morde's E is a good start, but it would need a lot more to make a difference - even in bot lane. This was once the staple of mordekaiser's success, and now it acts as more of a shield than his actual shield. Imagine that.

Direct quote via Statikk: "(a) Majority of his gameplay is unavoidable and inevitable (especially for melee opponents) - Morde can often feel like a brick wall of statistics where neither sides' actions or skill matter."

Here's another: "Unlike champions like Garen who are completely self-focused, Morde has tools like an ally-shield and extreme dependence on ally utility like CC to succeed"

^This is morde NOW, not morde THEN. When your team even admitted that they overstepped their bounds with the arbitrary juggernaut rework, shouldn't the correct approach be to undo the damage rather than put lipstick on a pig? It's frustrating to see that the only solution in mind is to mask the fact that they messed up by messing up even further, and making it look intelligent to some degree. News flash; Stupid is still stupid - even after the second pass.

As a long-time mordekaiser main, I was around for the days when Sunfire Cape stacked, and I can assure you, he was a lot less "healthy" back then than he has ever been. Old morde actually had a fair amount of counterplay - in that he could be easily taken down from a distance, yet was a formidable opponent for any who dared a close-quarter skirmish. His sustain and damage had the ability to be counterplayed, negated, and shut down at early levels (much like ANY other champ with a so-called "end game fantasy"). Morde was an excellent mid and top laner, and countered many of the old meta assassins - whilst still bearing the potential to be obliterated by other viable mages - like Lux, Zyra, Syndra, Etc.

Lately, I would say that his counterplay now is not so much dictated by his skill, kit, or lack thereof, but by his lane partner. He exists now as a self-sustaining, giant minion who acts as a shoulder cannon for his support whenever an enemy is dumb enough to slip into range of his Q. If anything, I can't think of another champion who is more dependant on his team. Is that not unhealthy? Even URGOT has the ability to pick his lane, yet Morde is the kind of 2nd tier carry (yes, even that is an overstatement at this point) who is given little choice in where he remains viable.

I feel that the safest way to balance morde is to bring him relatively close to where he was pre-5.16 (and by the looks of the current W and E changes, that seems to be the right direction). Having tested countless builds on both NA and the PBE over the past months, I have concluded that Morde is not so much too weak or too strong, but rather boring. He lacks the intrigue to keep him fun, or even exciting. He lacks both the unique qualities and juggernaut feel that he used to - even after the so-called "juggernaut" rework that stripped this very quality from him. I've voiced these concerns on the PBE until I'm blue in the face, yet to no avail. Many would agree when I say that there are definite ups and downs to his new Q and ult passive, yet what made Morde a champion at heart is somewhat dead.

I get the impression that Rito secretly feels that their current duo lane rework is the "greater of two evils" (especially given the blatant balance issues highlighted by ban picks at Worlds), yet they still speak as if the old morde is somehow less healthy that he is in his current state. I'm not sure why they continue to cling to the bot lane delusion - especially after the AD itemization changes made him completely irrelevant there, and it's not like duo top is a meta that spans outside the realm of lv. 10 summoners. I see what they mean about not being happy, but I don't think they care about just how unhappy we really are. No matter how educated our opinions may be, and no matter how grounded in fact our arguments are, this is not our game, and Rito has made this very clear.

Vlasimuthe12/28/2015, 7:42:33 AM2 votes

How about adding a slow onto his E, because he really needs a way to stick to his enemies. Change his Q to a two hit move where the first deals heave damage and the second roots the enemy with a chain around their body because the whole "Iron" revenant thing. Let him solo cast his W again to increase his defenses but change it to not deal damage but fill his shield nstantly. In trades Morde will e the enemy to slow them, get his two Qs off, then can sustain his shield with W. If Morde is not going to be a juggernaut then he needs some utility to his kit.

Garrotte12/12/2015, 3:47:57 AM1 votes

If you can't find anything positive about solo lane morde, why not just scrap it and only focus on duolane morde?