Patch Chat with Playtest Team - 6.13

RiotSkarnye West··1 votes·114,000 views

Welcome back to Patch Chat!

I’m Gentleman Gustaf, and here with me is Riot’s Playtest Team, a group of high-ranking League players whose job it is to play the hell out of things and give actionable objective feedback to designers. Think of us as your high-Elo friends who happen to have played the new patch, rework, or champion long before it ever came out.

Every two weeks (concurrent with the release of patch notes), we’re going to be hosting a discussion here on Dev Corner. Take this opportunity to ask us any questions about the state of the game. Want to know what we think is OP? Curious what it’s like to work as a Riot playtester? Have any questions about how we feel about the most recent patch? We will be around for the next few hours and will try to answer as many questions as possible.

Patch 6.13 brings significant changes to support and top lane, so especially ask us any questions you have about our predictions or thoughts on the new support/top landscape!

Additionally, Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith and Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes will be streaming Wednesday, 6/29 from 6PM to 8 PM PDT, so if you want to join them for custom games, or just continue the discussion there, tune in to the stream tomorrow!

Adam "Afic" Cohen Preston “Hinder” Bunker Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie Don “Aesah” Ding Nicolas “Gleeb” Haddad Dan “Penguin” Hardison Miles “Daydreamin” Hoard Bao “Bao/Siegil” Lam Robert “RobertxLee” Lee Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “S0be” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes

295 Comments

Eph2896 votes

We see Vlad and Irelia changes in 6.13 to address dominating picks in competitive play, but what about Azir? The guy has been top-dog for over a year in mid, and if your champion can't lane against Azir, you probably have to ban it away in competitive. I know he was nerfed some recently, but that hasn't stopped him getting picked at all.

Hyper-scaling mobile bursty lane bully . . . feels like at least one of these has to give.

RiotS0bey11 votes

Azir is problematic to say the least. I'm not super happy with him right now either. item 3070 Azir

RiotRiot Afic14 votes

I believe we have some nerfs for him coming up in the near future... not soon enough though ><

DCYOUNG8882 votes

More nerfs for Azir? Pretty soon we'll have to change his title to "Azir: The Emperor of Nerfs." item 3070 item 3070 In all seriousness though, what are the nerfs that Azir will have to face in future patches? I heard he's going to be converted into more of a marksman scaling from a previous discussion so is that one of those changes? Also, are there any plans to change his passive? It's more like a toggle active than an actual passive.

RiotRiot Afic2 votes

I think the current idea is to mess around with his scaling particularly through the mid game. He is certainly a very strong champion once he gets going, but he probably gets to that point too easily.

Not sure where we will end up with any changes, but I'll be sure to test it out before it releases!

Critkeeper3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Afic,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=lKFQipoE,comment-id=0010000200000000,timestamp=2016-06-29T17:03:30.042+0000)

I think the current idea is to mess around with his scaling particularly through the mid game. He is certainly a very strong champion once he gets going, but he probably gets to that point too easily.

Not sure where we will end up with any changes, but I'll be sure to test it out before it releases!

the problem with azir is rylais.

it shouldn't be a 40% slow with that much uptime and range.

you need to make soldier autos count as a pet attack instead of an aoe attack.

IAmNeverViable5 votes

Here's a couple of question?

  1. Do you guys play-test off-meta picks? WHat's your favorite picks?
  2. Do you guys play-test the new ryze update? What's your thoughts?
  3. How's the experiences changes in patch 6.13? How much of improvement compare to patch 6.12?
RiotSiegil6 votes
  1. Yes, in some of the test. We have some odd picks that appear in playtest from time to time.
  2. We've done quite a lot of testing on the new Ryze update and we're super excited about it. I think it will be a fun champion for players, experienced and new, to play and learn. I think he makes a lot of exciting (and tragic) plays around the map via his ultimate.
  3. TBH I haven't felt it too much, but it definitely feels less snowbally.
IAmNeverViable1 votes

Speaking of the Ryze update, what are you so excited about the change? I don't really see a differences beside his new ult. LIke hat's his new strength and weakness?

RiotS0bey4 votes

I really enjoy pulling out different combos of spells with the new Ryze. This new Ryze has a lot of options when it comes to combos- instead of mash-face-on-keyboard old Ryze you need a little bit more finesse to outplay your opponents.

IAmNeverViable1 votes

For the new Ryze,...

  1. Do you still max q? Or e?
  2. What's your favorite moment with the new Ryze?
  3. How does jungle Ryze do? I can see Ryze have decent jungle clear and above average ganks.
UsiTsukino5 votes

Thresh W - Dark Passage REMOVED AP RATIO 0.4 ability power ⇒ Removed NEW SOUL RATIO Now gains +1 shield per soul collected

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/259/55181940.jpg

How's Thresh doing? I'm scared... ;___;

PD: And why there's no MR included too?? xDD Looks at Sona and Karma Supports >__>

Thanks ;__;!!

RiotRiot Afic11 votes

My favorite change about thresh is actually the coin changes. If you don't feel like you need the sustain on targon's for your AD, building into a Talisman of Ascension feels much better on him now (raptor cloak !!). As someone who plays both AD and support, I am scared to go against more Thresh players (I tend to be a hook magnet ><)

Bladerunner77776 votes

item 3069 item 3800 item 3117

I'm ready to go back to my Season 5 GetOutOfBronze freelo build

Now with a bonus item 3742 !

RiotRiot Afic19 votes

Oh god... what have we done

RiotS0bey15 votes

Needs more item 3086 item 3086 item 3086 and item 3070 item 3070 item 3070

Critkeeper4 votes

Different classes have different capabilities of really specializing into their core fantasy because the item system doesn't uniformly support the various classes.

A core item should ideally amplify, enable, or support the capabilities that identifies your champion from others. There can't and shouldn't be a unique item for every champion, so core items are consolidated across champions based on the similarity in their capabilities.

Not long ago you spent some time thinking about how champions in league can be classified based on differences and similarities in their capabilities.

Here is a list of the subclasses and the items that directly support their capabilites:

#Vanguards item 3800 #Wardens item 3110 item 3105 item 3401 #Juggernauts item 3748 item 3742 item 3053 item 3071 item 3068 #Divers item 3078 item 3022 #Assassins item 3156 item 3142 item 3147 #Skirmishers EMPTY #Burst Mages item 3285 #Battle Mages item 3157 item 3001 #Artillery Mages EMPTY #Enchanters item 3504 item 3050 item 3222 item 3069 #Disruptors item 3092 #Marksmen item 3031 item 3508

Notice the above items only cover those which directly support the common agenda of all champions belonging to the subclass. That doesn't mean all items must fit some sort of subclass agenda.

There are generalist items that work for multiple classes like: item 3089 item 3035 item 3135

There are situational items that do something more specific-- a role rather than a subclass, like splitpushing for example: item 3512

There are items that are even more specific than that, for example: item 3139

There is a swath of offensive items that offer situational power for marksmen and other primary damage dealers: item 3153 item 3046 item 3087 item 3085 item 3094 item 3072 item 3812

Some items are specific to a certain kind of damage dealer, one with on hits or mixed damage for example: item 3124 item 3146

Note that many of these groups are underrepresented and many of them are over represented. There isn't really any item that is dedicated to the agenda of all artillery mages for instance. I suppose disrupters scale so hard with cooldown reduction, any core item you provide would have to compete with that, and thats probably not possible unless it was a double cast or something.

Likewise, there isn't an item that is dedicated to the agenda of a skirmisher, which according to the subclass dev blog is to "shred through any nearby enemy that approaches, but lack in high end burst or reliable ways to close on high priority targets". The closest item that supports that agenda is last whisper, but it a generalist item not an item specifically tailored to the needs of skirmishers.

So here is my question:

Can we get a core item for artillery mages and a core item for skirmishers please?

In case you are wondering what I am thinking by "core" item for skirmisher and artillery mage, I mean something that really orients or even commits your champion towards the skirmisher/artillery agenda:

Salamander Saber (melee only) 20% attack speed 20 attack damage 20% crit chance unique passive: "Converts some of any physical damage dealt into a damage over time effect. 20% as true damage over 4 seconds."

Magic railgun 300 mana 80 ap passive: "hitting any enemy champion with an ability builds 1 charge. Max 10 charges. Receiving damage removes a charge." active: "consumes all charges to launch a magic projectile that bounces. Deals 100 + 10% ability power damage. Gains 1 bounce and 100 range per charge."

RiotSkarnye West8 votes

Hey Critkeeper! Thanks for your analysis :)

Your post is a bit of a long one but it's on my favorite topic in LoL, so I'm going to give it a similarly detailed response. But I'm just sitting at work spitballing, so it will be a bit scattered, and there's a chance I'll make some silly mistakes or say something that's only partially true or leave out something cool I'll wish I'd elaborated on, so I hope you don't mind! But the TL;DR is that you're pretty spot on that we haven't reached full role-item array saturation. Whether or not full saturation is a good or a necessary thing is a bit harder to say, but let's start from the assumption that it is (this aligns with my personal beliefs).

When LoL started, class distinctions were very blunt and vague: AD carry, AP carry, tank, bruiser, support. As such, the items were relatively imprecise: did you want AD, AP, tanky stats, or team-assisting actives. I believe the first real distinction that started getting made - itemization-wise - was with melee champions.

People used to get into arguments over what a "tank" was all the time. One set of people just said tanks were any champions who built tanky. Back then, people would call Dr. Mundo and Jarvan and Nautilus all tanks. It was an imprecise world. The other side was saying that there were two types of tanky champions.

One class of "tanky" champions was gold hungry; they built the exodia build of Warmog's Atma's Trinity Force and scaled pretty well, to the degree that they became one of the most frustrating classes in the game. Soon, the name "bruiser" stuck.

This stood in stark contrast to "tanks" could build nothing but gold items and still do well. Of course, it was actually even more complicated than that because junglers like Mundo and Shyvana would build jungle items and build tanky AD.

The other contrast was ADCs; you basically had two classes of ADCs; BT first and IE first champions.

Fast forward a season and you get Black Cleaver and the Youmuu's rework and people started to realize that AD Assassins were a class that had just needed items to function. We stopped calling AP Assassins at some point and started calling them burst mages because AP Assassins tend to have CC while AD assassins don't.

To avoid this being a lengthy history lesson, over the last 12-months or so, Juggernauts got their items, and then ADCs got their itemization rework, and then there was Mage Update.

We've been working on the class list behind the scenes, and as you can guess from those three updates, plus the upcoming assassin update, one of the big initiatives at Riot is updating each class to have a clear identity. A lot of things determine what classes get updates.

Juggernauts got theirs because they were probably the least supported class in LoL. We just overweighted them with stats because the game systems didn't allow them to function.

Marksmen got theirs because the class was relatively indistinct. You mostly just picked one of the marksmen that was strong at the time because they were so similar that style rarely mattered.

Assassins, on the other hand, are getting their update because they're one of the most frustrating classes to play against, so there's a huge impact on live to their existence.

When we update a class, we typically want to hit three things: kits, items, and systems. For example, with juggernauts that looked like this: Kits - Removing excess mobility, changing scalings, Items - making more mobility items, introducing items to match those scalings.

And that leaves systems. What do I mean by "systems"? You'll note that many juggernauts scale with Base AD (rather than Bonus) and Health. This is intended, and allows us to tailor items to them by loading them with those stats. But here's the problem. When we reworked juggernauts, we didn't also rework every other champion. There are plenty of other champions with Base AD or health scaling, and those champions also love the juggernaut items. Given that those items are overloaded at their goal of filling the weaknesses of the juggernaut class, they often ended up heightening the strengths of champions who could take those items without having those weaknesses. For example, Darius needs Dead Man's Plate to chase most champions down. But if a champion like Jarvan can take that item efficiently, he can just chase you down with all of his gap-closers. And while Titanic Hydra is aimed at juggernauts, other melee champions who like Base AD and health can grab that and go on to also build damage and be this weird tanky never-dying champion who can still one-shot you (Fiora got pretty scary for awhile there)

Artillery champions benefit highly from regular AP items, and it's quite likely that the reverse would be true. And so it requires a good deal more care to make sure we don't accidentally make it impossible to balance all other mages just to give Artillery champions their items. Or it may even turn out that Artillery champions don't have differing itemization needs from generic mage items because their class already hits its niche so hard. Same goes for skirmisher.

I hope this gives some context: you're definitely right that those classes don't currently have class-specific items. It's a bit harder to say whether that's a problem. It's even harder to turn that problem into a design solution, especially when there are more pressing - or more easily solved - problems nearby for us to tackle.

Quepha2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gentleman Gustaf,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=lKFQipoE,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2016-06-28T21:56:54.252+0000)

Same goes for skirmisher.

I totally disagree here. I'm actually quite surprised that Skirmishers weren't on the short list for class updates next to Divers, Assassins, and Vanguards since they are usually straight-up bad unless they're balanced like an assassin (Jax) or balanced like a diver (Fiora). They have this desire to attack targets and a way to get to the target, but unless they kill the target instantly (which they're not supposed to do) or are weirdly tanky (which they're not supposed to do) then they just fail.

RiotSkarnye West6 votes

I should have been more clear, but by "same goes for skirmisher", I mean "it may turn out that their issues are not itemization-related", not "The class is fine". That is to say their problems could be any number of things, and we certainly wouldn't want to rush a solution before fully identifying the problem.

EDIT: but "next to Divers, Assassins, and Vanguards" still puts them a year or so down the line if we maintain our current pace of 3-4 updates (some minor, some major) per year. That's a lot of time to figure those issues out.

LolShrimpDaddy3 votes

I understand what they are doing with the support items but i still feel that they are underpowerd and just utility for your team late game i just feel like some champs that are played as support drop off hard mid to late game and are only used to clear wards or reposition people such as Blitzcrank

RiotS0bey36 votes

I'm not really sure what you're asking here but you touched on something that peeves me as an active support player. Yeah- as support you don't have as much raw power as a mid laner or top laner. You don't have as much access to gold and exp and you are required to spend a chunk of that gold on stuff that doesn't have any clear benefit for your power (sightstone, aegis). But this does not make you a less effective champion than your allies by a large margin.

Champions like Blitz have an uncanny ability to carry games with nothing but mobility boots. Thesh has the ability to make massive highlight reel plays and murder even the most fed carries with very little gold or exp required. Soraka, Nami, Sona, Janna can spoon feed even the most nooby marksman gold until they become useful. Playing Support, in my opinion, is not about getting powerful or vacuuming up as much gold as you can so you can carry the game. It's about empowering your allies to smash the opponent and disabling your enemies to make them blind and helpless, and you can do all of this with almost no gold in your pocket.

Hextor4 votes

Well that said i still can't agree with you. Your point '' that support champs don't need as much exp or gold'' is totally irrelevant actually. You will not see that in other rpg's. I can understand that supports would not get as much money as your marksman or mid but that's only because money doesn't grow on trees exception: Maokai , it does on minions Duh (You can't just throw in an infinite supply of items that generate more gold). However Riot should look into a way to help supports stay on par for exp. As a party in rpg's the exp is split equally why should it be different with LoL, why should supports be weak or punished? Maybe the exp could be fixed through support items much like gold is for junglers.

USA yogurt Go10 votes

maybe LoL is NOT an RPG??

Hextor4 votes

It's is based off RPG's and follows the same principles of a team of heroes fighting ennemies and leveling up. There is no reason the healer would receive less exp than the rest of the team. Somehow the design behind the game also shapes the community into what it is as you know it with the support role only being secondary in the team some players will discard/discredit it's importance (as seen in mage supports exemple: Brand, Annie). If Player's see supports as weak and unappealing why would they respect thoses who play them or play this role, when they can bask in the glory of their scores when a master yi can chop down a whole team on it's own and a Zed eliminate alll but the most tanky targets on the field. Take a step back and you will see what i mean, most of the peoples who play League of legends only revel in what they can do alone and not as a team no wonders this game as reached such a point of toxicity.

RiotSkarnye West14 votes

{quoted}

It's is based off RPG's and follows the same principles of a team of heroes fighting ennemies and leveling up. There is no reason the healer would receive less exp than the rest of the team. Somehow the design behind the game also shapes the community into what it is as you know it with the support role only being secondary in the team some players will discard/discredit it's importance (as seen in mage supports exemple: Brand, Annie). If Player's see supports as weak and unappealing why would they respect thoses who play them or play this role, when they can bask in the glory of their scores when a master yi can chop down a whole team on it's own and a Zed eliminate alll but the most tanky targets on the field. Take a step back and you will see what i mean, most of the peoples who play League of legends only revel in what they can do alone and not as a team no wonders this game as reached such a point of toxicity.

So, experience is a bit complicated. There is nothing about support class champions that says "they gain less XP". However, unlike in an RPG, a lot of their role involves roaming and controlling vision, which moves them away from the main sources of XP (minions). That being said, the changes to XP while dead or XP when behind should help supports somewhat, but certainly not to the point where supports will keep even pace with other champions.

Hextor5 votes

I understand that Gustaf but i believe supports should be able to stay on par with marksmans for exp since they share the same lane as them and the level of a champion can be much more critical to a fight than items. Is it in riots intentions to bring the supports on par with any other dual laning compositions in further patches in terms of exp. Meta's change, game's change so pro players too can and maybe the game could be more healthy that way too.

RiotSkarnye West16 votes

I think what's important to note is that they don't always share that lane. If they did, they'd stay even in XP. Let's say we made it so all XP the marksman gets is split in half and the support gets half.

What happens when the support roams and fails? Is there no experience loss for that failed play? What happens when the support roams and gets a kill/assist? Do they pull ahead of their marksman? Does the marksman get half of the experience for their play?

RiotS0bey27 votes

If you read the patch notes you'd see that we are, in fact, giving supports more exp. There are a LOT of design decisions behind why exp is split the way it is for League- and no, League should probably not use a standard RPG model for exp because as is definitely not a standard RPG (It's a fking MOBA, I'm not even sure what RPG uses a system like the one you described). I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here.

Hextor5 votes

My point is simple supports give as much effort (usually) as any team member for exemple they peel the ennemy marksmans and support during lane phase to prepare the kill for even a bad marksman who probably doesn't invest any effort into taking them down until the remaining 10% of their health , so please tell me why in details and with reasonable arguments should supports always fall behind in exp other than (it has always been this way). And you don't have to be rude regardless of your age or the fact you work at Riots, in fact you should set the exemple so you should keep it to: It is a MOBA rather than it's a fucking MOBA. Also patch note is not in highlights on the league client and i did not notice the small link in the thread.

RiotS0bey38 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Trumpwonsuckit8 votes

"hey let's have an open discussion with our player base"

SoBE takes on condescending, rude tone with player base...

ĘbbAndƒlowey6 votes

I would be condescending too if I had to explain in detail the patch notes, when they could easily be read. Yes, they could have taken a better approach and said "Maybe you should look at this section of the Patch Notes. We have already made attempts to fix this and are waiting to see if this helped or not." But tbh, Hextor was literally being a nuisance in this situation, as SoBE gave reasons for why exp is split as is and was being told by some random person that they were wrong because a different genre of games does it differently. So It's be a little hard not to be this condescending.

Terraeclipse7 votes

This reminds me of the feeling I had back where I worked in fast food when people couldn't read the menu board and then asked what was on special this week.

Seriously, Hextor - you quite literally bitched about every single damn thing they're aiming to fix with this patch........ I don't blame him for being annoyed.

Dallydoodle2 votes

That's why the champions that were made to support have higher base stats and more utility in their kits pre-6 and tons of power on their ultimate abilities. They don't need items or exp to be amazing its the skill of the player. That's what I'm almost sure 100% of the support player base will say. I know that's my opinion and I love what riot's doing to the support items and exp. Its more rewarding to do your job and that's what supposed to happen. I doubt you play any support and if you do its probably not well seeing how greedy you sound in your play. If you were to give them fair amount of exp and gold it wouldn't make sense because they would literally be getting gold and exp for standing around and doing nothing while an adc has to focus on harass and last hitting and the enemy support while you get to harass and zone and get free money for it.

RiotSkarnye West6 votes

The hate support gets has always felt weird to me. I play mostly tanks, and I'm ok with those champions doing no damage, and whenever somebody says "X tanky champion just can't carry", I just think "Cool, you play your champion, I play mine, and that's fine. Just don't complain that what I think is fun isn't fun to you"

Bladerunner77771 votes

That change to Mikael's sounds like it's gonna be really strong on Nami (I primarily play Nami)

I already rush it every game after Eye of the Watchers

RiotS0bey5 votes

Yep! Can confirm it's pretty nasty on Nami.

Bladerunner77772 votes

If it turns out to be too strong can the item be nerfed before nerfing Nami? <_<

RiotS0bey12 votes

I was hoping to nerf Nami's heal by 10000 at all ranks but what we nerf is not up to me [slayer-jinx-wink]

mattkx91 votes

After all the changes, what do you think will be the most powerful support item line and why? Do you believe that the changes to the items will allow for lesser played supports to shine? I'm just saying that personally, I've not seen many coin supports recently, but because of this I feel as though coin might become a viable option once again.

And ruby crystal. How do you think those buffs will affect a support's build path? Do you foresee Ruby Crystal being a mid-game buy instead of a late-game purchase?

Thanks <3

RiotRiot Afic5 votes

Hard to say. I expect talisman of ascension and ruby sight stone to catch on a lot more (currently I see mostly eye of the equinox/watchers/oasis). Now that the active is much more accessible on talisman, along with buffs to ruby sight stone, most popular purchases might shift. If that combination of items does become stronger, I would also expect to see meta champions shift to those who can utilize coin better.

mattkx92 votes

Thanks for the snappy reply :)

I just hope to my Lord in heaven that I don't see a blitzcrank with talismen every game.

Thanks again, Matt

RiotRiot Afic6 votes

I hope I remember to ban Blitz every game... that is more because I am a hook magnet than anything else though

RiotS0bey16 votes

The most powerful support item?

Sightstone.

Vision is power in League- all of these support items pale in comparison to the mighty Sightstone. I know some might be temped to go for that early Forbidden Idol, but will that 10% heal amp save you from the jungler? Of course not- that's a job for truly most supporty item, the great and powerful Sightstone.

mattkx91 votes

Of course, of course, of course! So with these awesome Ruby Crystal buffs and the fact that we now get exp for killing wards (oh, and I almost forgot. wards look cool now?), will you expect to see Ruby Crystal showing up much earlier? Maybe after you've finished a core item, boots, and a support item?

Personally, and I might be completely wrong by doing this, but Ruby Crystal is pretty much always my last buy, unless I notice my team is lacking extreme vision and I keep running out of wards. But I almost never buy it before 30 minutes.

Thanks again for the fast response, Matt

RiotS0bey7 votes

I'm not sure if I'd expect to see item 2045 earlier as it feels most effective way to use the 20% active item cdr is to actually have one or two activatable items (like item 3222 item 3069 item 3190 ) before I upgrade Sightstone- but maybe!

No problem "Not A Hooker" Matt! (That sounds like a Thresh main's username)

mattkx93 votes

That seems like the smart route to go. There may be some certain circumstances I can see getting Ruby Crystal right after a core item. In particular whenever you have to rush mikael's. Since mikael's doesn't provide you with health like a locket does, a ruby crystal would help with a bit more tankiness as well as bringing down that mikael's cool down. But other than that, I completely agree with you.

I don't usually do these type of "chat with riot" things, but it's a been a positive experience. I'll definitely do it more in the future! Thanks for being amazing people and answering all my questions :)

Thank you so much and see you in the rift, Matt (Not a Hooker)

(You guessed it lol. I got my lvl7 thresh mastery just today)

Cosmochris1 votes

I'm not sure if anyones asked this yet and this is prob a dumb question but would the healing and shield increase from ardent censer and mikes be able to stack with each other?

Riotvo1d seeker12 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if anyones asked this yet and this is prob a dumb question but would the healing and shield increase from ardent censer and mikes be able to stack with each other?

The healing and shielding increase from item 3504 and item 3222 are able to stack! The passives on those two items are not unique, but the passive on item 3114 is. So, you could buy item 3504 , item 3222 , and another item 3114 for 40% increased shields + heals, but you won't get any extra benefit for stacking multiple item 3114.

Edit: 15 + 15 + 10 != 45 >.<

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