Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 2

RiotMeddler·8/2/2019, 3:03:57 PM·1 votes·120,592 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Rate of Balance Changes in TFT

We're at the point now where we're planning on slowing down on rate of balance changes in TFT. Until now we've been making pretty frequent and large changes trying to get everything broadly in line. From what we're seeing balance is getting close to a point where natural meta evolution's going to counter a lot of things though. Changing too quickly undercuts ability for that to emerge and can make it feel like whenever you're starting to master things that expertise gets reset too much with new patches all the time. 9.15b next week's likely to be pretty small as a result and current thinking is 9.16, while it will introduce new content with the Hextech Champs, shouldn't be as heavy on raw balance as 9.15. Plan is to still act swiftly on anything really degenerative or straight out bugged of course.

SR Balance

As mentioned previously we're now in the part of the year where we'll be making few balance changes for a while, keeping the game in a stable state. That means in particular fewer mechanics changes to existing champions and limited systemic changes to things like items, the jungle, runes etc. We'll still have regular balance changes each patch of course, though they'll tend to be more at the level of tuning than big swings at things.

Looking at 9.15 things landed pretty much as expected. We don't have any significant followup planned yet for champs changed that patch as a result. For 9.16 we'll be keeping an eye on Yuumi, Irelia, Karma and Ezreal as all potentially too dominant, especially in a pro play context. Only specific change we're testing for 9.16 so far though is a nerf to jungle Sylas where his Q2 damage will also be reduced against monsters, not just minions. That's aimed at reducing the extra value he gets from being a strong flex pick, hope being that trimming that down will let us leave more power in him in other ways.


How we think about maintaining multiple versions of a feature

Given recent discussion around the Legacy Cursor I figured a bit of visibility into our thought process when it comes to offering multiple different versions of a feature might be of interest. Before diving into that though, for anyone who's missed it the option to use the Legacy Cursor's back in again.

So, first off, general thoughts on benefits and costs of maintaining prior functionality when we update something. I'm assuming here that the output of the feature in question is the same (e.g. a cursor you use to control the game, a patcher that updates the game for you, a particular UI etc). Things like old and new versions of a champion by contrast are a very different case because what one player chooses impacts others.

The benefit side of things is pretty straightforward - it lets us give different groups of players what they want. The cost side by contrast tends to be more complex, particularly depending on what the feature in question is. Meaningful costs we think about include:

  • The ongoing extra time that will be required to support multiple versions going forwards. Tends to mean things like having to make additional new pieces of art, fix the same bug in multiple places, additional QA testing each patch. For some features that time cost's trivial. For others (e.g. maintaining multiple versions of the in game HUD after its update a few years back) it adds a lot of extra time.
  • Some improvements that would be great for most users can end up being blocked by the need to support older functionality. Supporting really old operating systems for example can block improvements to things like memory usage for everyone else.
  • The total size and complexity of the game's code base has some impact on how quickly we can develop new features. Removing anything unnecessary gives us future efficiency as a result, which is particularly important for games like LoL with long lifespans and regular updates.

Looking at the Legacy Cursor as an example:

  • We shipped an update to LoL's cursor in July 2018. Our belief was that the updated version would be a better experience for most players. That generally seemed to be true, testing did indicate that a subset of players indicated they found the cursor change really disruptive though.
  • In response to that we added a Legacy Cursor option to allow players to opt into the old functionality. Cost, both upfront and ongoing, of doing so was pretty low and audience asking for the old cursor seemed to be of a meaningful size.
  • As with any legacy feature we made a note to reassess at some point, see if it was still worth supporting or no longer necessary.
  • Somewhere along the way we got some wires crossed in our internal communication and the need to assess the Legacy Cursor was assumed to instead be a need to remove it a year later. Cursor gets removed, players get understandably sad.
  • We then take a look at who's using it, see that it's around 10% of the LoL playerbase, and add it back in. Cost of maintaining it's low and value seems pretty meaningful.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

207 Comments

IxtaliKing8/2/2019, 3:28:13 PM23 votes

Hey Meddler.

At this point, is it fair to say that the changes Karma was given in 5.10 have broken her kit? The fact that we're STILL having to nerf RE 3 years later just seems weird to me... and that's not even mentioning all the other crude and questionable patchwork that's been done on her during that time.

I can't help but feel like if that last mini-rework had occurred in S7, you guys would have called it a failure and reverted it in some way, just like Leblanc, Rengar and Zac.

K3eT8/2/2019, 3:13:18 PM17 votes

Irelia top suffers in so many matchups. Her pro play dominance if unfortunate, but will the nerfs stops when she is unplayable in solo queue? Also, it seems like pretty shady business tactics to postpone Irelia nerfs until the patch after her prestige skin drops.

IlyaK19868/2/2019, 6:48:40 PM15 votes

What kind of nonsense is this regarding Irelia?

She has among the lowest winrates in any lane she plays in solo queue at any play level, regularly falls through P/B in LCK and LCS, and plenty of individuals on any board have stated that laning with her feels like an awful experience, especially in top lane. Furthermore, why is the heuristic for determining pro play presence so rudimentary? How is a company earning billions in revenue simply giving a checkmark to whether or not a champion appears in P/B? How is a red side last pick "nobody picked my counter" valued identically to "THIS POWER PICK IS OPEN, SLAM IT" first pick blue side? Furthermore, how does contribution to team damage count towards this?

How do you reconcile the fact that as you continue to try and hamper Irelia's pro presence, that you might as well remove her from the game as a serious pick for the vast majority of the League of Legends playing population? Remember when Akali crested below 40% win rate in solo queue? Is this the goal here? Is she supposed to be a mid-tier pro pick, and completely absent from the hands of anybody else, like Garen is supposed to be a mid-tier pick for low ELO play, and absent elsewhere?

Or, as I saw on /r/ireliaMains :

Riot: Let's release a skill-expressive champion! Pros: express skill Riot: NERF THAT. NOW.

Furthermore, assuming Riot achieves their goal of reining in her presence in pro play, that'd essentially mean she'd need to be rebuffed since she'd be absolutely bottom of the barrel in solo, and not highly represented in pro.

Why not just bite the bullet, and be happy that pro play sees a perennial presence of a champion that's aesthetically amazing to watch for the people in TV-land, give a second look to how you analyze pick/ban data in pro, while creating a champion that the vast majority of people wouldn't just be reported for feeding on in the game that the vast majority of individuals play across the world?

Overall, I think this is a huge failure from Riot here. The idea that you have to completely destroy a champion because a few select individuals whose literal job it is to play the game for more time than is healthy for most human beings to do can competently play a champion in certain situations just seems so utterly bizarre to me.

MiracleMorg948/2/2019, 4:16:55 PM12 votes

Stop nerfing Karma and give her the damn rework she rightfully DESERVES, Meddler. You all make enough money on your top pets, so use the resources now on champions that need THEM!

YL 6668/2/2019, 3:08:02 PM10 votes

Any news about Wukong? Are artists still busy? If yes,when they will be free?

DeathBurst8/2/2019, 3:21:58 PM10 votes

I got 26 upvotes (top voted comment on that thread) last time AND the reworked Panth also has that feature, so I'm making another try :)

{quoted}

A totally unrelated question, but this Quick Thoughts are the best way to reach you, so...

QoL update for Sona: Give her an "ammo" bar similar to Annie/Irelia [and now Reworked Panth too!] to see when her passive is up and what chord is ready, pretty please?

ΙreIia8/2/2019, 8:58:42 PM9 votes

Another set of nerfs for Irelia in the next patch? , great I can't wait for them, Irelia having a 45% win rate is just borderline broken , you might as well delete her w at this point and just call it a day. I really can't wait to see what new creative ways you guys will find to gut Irelia, I'm already in the 40% win rate hype train and we all know that she is beyond overpowered in the top lane! I gotta say that you guys did a great job at balancing Riven and her 55% win rate in challanger , buffing Poppy solved the problem , along with her last nerf that made her litteraly unplayable. You also balanced Aatrox really well by giving kled 60% healing reduction on his q, since Aatrox is definitely the only top laner that uses conqueror and has any sustain right? And that Renekton shield break finally gives our favorite aligator some counterplay against a Sion that gets perma shielded by the enemy support. I wanna end this by saying that you should consider buffing Vladimir and Kennen are very fragile picks in the top lane that don't have any counterplay vs other top laners , since they aren't safe picks and they never win lane , not to mention that they suck in teamfights as well , so could you buff their main item at least item 3152 since it's way too expensive , just a little by changing it's cost from 2500 to 75 gold so it can compete with control wards?

Better Nerf Irelia [zombie-brand-clap]

Redesignated8/2/2019, 8:15:58 PM7 votes

So considering that:

  1. Karma's performance in regular play dropped massively after the E haste duration reduction;
  2. This latest nerf has her to the point in standard play of being middle-of-the-pack at best for both support and top, and highly unreliable from mid, even amongst the most proficient people playing her (u.gg and Lolalytics both verify this);
  3. Her actual performance in competitive for 9.14 is unremarkable, despite her pick rate, instead implying that her presence follows the trend of prioritizing position flexibility over raw power (and even then frequently being unable to successfully exploit that flexibility);

With all of that in mind, how clear is it yet that she needs an actual update, and not just being left to the whims of repeated nerfing because her current iteration is only functional for the majority of players when it provides enough raw strength to be easily exploitable in competitive?

How much of a priority is being placed on giving her an update that listens to what Karma players are saying and sticks with them to see it through, as has been requested by Karma players for multiple years now? The last attempt at an update went heavily against what the majority of Karma players wanted in multiple aspects, and was then swiftly abandoned with very little in the way of iteration; meanwhile, Teemo update, Malphite update, etc. were on PBE for extended periods to receive feedback and get adjustments that fit what people were requesting, and even though Teemo's update didn't end up shipping, it was still getting modified for months.

Karma has a long history of being neglected and put to the side in favor of other champions, with many of those champions consistently getting favor at that. It is incredibly frustrating to see this trend continue so very reliably, so many times, for so many champions.

Sir Rouge8/2/2019, 4:20:31 PM6 votes

Hello Meddler! This is about the Syndra buff.

Please revert the 9.15 buff (lvl2/3 ultimate damage buff) and buff something else. All I thought this buff would do is increase her playrate/banrate by a little bit, which is exactly what it did, without really helping her, since all it did is:

  • Rarely, put even more of her damage into her ultimate, killing enemies from even higher amounts of hp with a single spell
  • Often, be useless, as the damage is overkill, especially since you often use Syndra’s ulti on low HP targets.

There are many better ways to buff her. I would personally target her W, as it’s her worst spell currently.

W buff ideas (one of the following):

  • Get back her W mechanic back (the mechanic that was removed early season 9) by increasing her W grab range (W1) on spheres only, and keeping the throw range the same. I know this is a buff you’ve mentioned being cautious of not putting through as it targets Syndra mains/low ping, but this mechanic was in the game for a season and a half and it was not a problem. Currently, a lot of the times, Syndra wants to use her W on an enemy, but can't get in range to grab her sphere, and is left with an unusable spell.
  • Lower mana cost: if you would like to keep Syndra’s W as her least strong ability, I would reduce the mana cost from 60-100 to 50-70, to make it a better option to max W/match its power level. The lower lvl 1 mana cost would also match the current power level of her W, as her W used to be much easier to hit while having high base damage early. It doesn’t deserve to be 60 mana at lvl 1 anymore.
  • Higher damage when maxed with slightly lower scaling: if you would like to increase the W damage when maxed (the buff on twitter), I would reduce the mana cost a bit too to help Syndra when maxing W (60-100 to 60-80).
Snowbrand8/2/2019, 4:06:03 PM5 votes

Is positional ranked totally out of the window or is there a chance it could come back?

I was really excited when it was first released and still think it was a good idea since I wouldn't have to play on my smurf for example to play different roles or champions in ranked.

AP Ezreal God8/2/2019, 3:21:11 PM4 votes

So I guess Ezreal's destined for 40% winrate then?

As for direction of nerfs, can you guys please try letting AP Ez dodge a bullet for once? Every nerf to AD Ez in the past 4 years has hurt AP Ezreal a lot more than AD Ezreal and AP Ez is already in a perilous state since the rework...

Rıots Bad Client8/2/2019, 4:43:17 PM4 votes

I play a lot of Aram.

I found that some champions Are dealing more damage to champions, Or champions are dealing less then the abilities say. I know that Aram got nerfs and buffs to change the champions. But as a player, I cannot find any contained post, or In game aram buff.

I was wondering if its possible to add a "Aram Effect" On champions IN game, so I can read what buff and nerf that champion is under.

Lich Bane Sona8/2/2019, 3:15:05 PM3 votes

Hey Meddler!

I have a question regarding these quick gameplay thoughts posts.

I've noticed that outside of these posts, red participation on the forums is way down - as in, your quick gameplay thoughts post from two weeks ago is still on the first page of the red tracker. Is there any plan for similar threads from other departments/teams?

J Eevo8/2/2019, 4:36:26 PM3 votes

Damn I was hoping the TFT balance slowdown would be accompanied with an increase in balance efforts for SR, not the opposite. I can kinda understand not wanting to shake up the meta before an important competitive event, if not for the fact we've had a stale mate for a WHILE now. Are you guys fine with Corki vs Azir being so prevalent in competitive?

Oecus8/2/2019, 5:19:04 PM3 votes

Hey Meddler can you please ask the skin team to give a response to the Project Jinx skin feedback that was left?

At this point we just want to know why no changes were made.

There was a vast array of ideas from minor to big that were agreed upon by the community:

https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/jaNJbtLn-pbe-bugs-feedback-thread-project-jinx

And this is from the feedback forum they posted.

Even from skin Spotlight videos the reception was negative:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=KKZ08Kxl-8c

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=saqFPS_MHyw

Even on riots Twitter:

https://mobile.twitter.com/loleu/status/1151077960843169792?s=20

Yet we never got a response back or even a minor change. Please we just want to know why at this point. It makes us feel like our voices meant nothing.

Domasis8/2/2019, 3:13:59 PM3 votes

With the resurgence of Azir and Corki in the competitive meta, are you looking to potentially nerf them in future patches, or buff their counters?

9.15 seems to be aiming towards the latter, a change I welcome. I'd rather see counters to these champs arise than the need to gut them, as Azir in particular has faced a ton of nerfs already.

On another topic, is there any kind of gameplay explorations for champs that you can clue us into? Any QoL work you've begun exploring for anyone?

Cheers!

ABcMasTeR8/2/2019, 3:17:11 PM2 votes

Anything happening to Aatrox? Riot August made a comment about him on his twitter but i wasnt sure if he was serious.

IndyBoy8/2/2019, 11:48:09 PM2 votes

Hey Meddler, I've made a few post about this issue, but a while back you took away the option to sort champions by role(fighter, tank, mage, assassin) in champion select and changed it instead to lane/alphabetical/etc. I really miss having the option to sort champs by role because as someone who likes picking for team composition it can be difficult to narrow my options.

Here's a better laid out post I made about it a while ago. Would love to hear your opinion on the matter. Please and thank you! ^_^

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/7EkX78QE-bring-back-the-option-to-sort-by-role-in-champ-select

Galiö8/2/2019, 3:18:30 PM2 votes

Is the team waiting for 60 champions/units to be in the game at a time before rotating units in TFT?

Or is something else planned such as a list of units being rotated game to game.

Example: on load up the game would inform you that yordle or glacial units would not be included in draws.

I think it can be more interesting for it to change game to game to force players to think about options on a game to game basis. Imo. (Would also help against super defined metas)

Karn Bishop8/2/2019, 10:22:42 PM2 votes

So your planning on deleting Sylas as a jungler? he's not exactly anywhere near 50% winrate in any role and putting that penalty to apply to minions and jungle monsters will make him unable to clear jungle completely vs other junglers.

Elite14308/2/2019, 5:28:55 PM1 votes

Any updates on prestige points or skins? You said there would be an update on this by now on your previous post. Is it still in the works or was it forgotten? :(

Kei1438/2/2019, 3:38:48 PM1 votes

Aw. Was looking forward to see design thoughts on early gold VS guaranteed items in TFT.

Guess that didn't make it into your thoughts.

Or is there a dev blog coming up for that instead?