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AP Itemisation Context #2

RiotNot Surrendering·11/9/2017, 1:20:01 AM·1 votes·10,771 views

Thought I’d drop in some context on where I’m at with the AP items project - See post #1 here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/tqLzRtbG-ap-itemisation-context

Goal: Give mana users more contextual choices on their first item. Secondary: Small improvements to the item system generally.

Out of the options we are considering, it boils down to discussing two main strategies that seem more promising.

Strategy One: A “reductionist” approach that makes mana purchases on mages not mandatory to function (eg. Morellos has no mana, Ludens and Nashors Tooth become more viable first options -> with tweaks to other systems/champs).

  • We already have some examples of this: Ahri, Annie, Azir, Brand, Diana, Ekko, Fizz, LB, Liss, Velkoz, etc. and they manage to have pretty decent item diversity without breaking the game.

  • Making mana items not mandatory however, is a fundamental departure from how League has operated since its inception and has many implications.

    • A few of the things to think about with this approach: Defensive item strength (Banshee/ROA/Zhonyas prevalence), how transformational can first items be in terms of pattern (eg. Righteous Glory when strong), mana functioning as a failsafe against one shot burst combos, is this the best state of the game, how long will it take to validate, etc.

Strategy Two: Retaining mana as a required early purchase and create contextual choices for this purchase (involves figuring out what these statlines and uniques look like).

  • Considerations in this space can be tough, because Morellonomicon gives mages a lot of the stats they could want and so the result of making the slot more contextual can make the purchase feel bad (just give me my old item back) or result in power creep. We subsequently have to be quite careful here and really make sure we’re making improvements.

  • As you may have seen on the Zoe stream, one version of this is investigating Lost Chapter alternatives (some with CDR, some without).

  • CDR is pretty hard to compete with generally speaking and this power probably needs to index heavily into burst, utility or teamfight power while remaining relatively generically usable.

Separate from this larger project, also looking into some smaller scope improvements:

  • Looking at ways to improve the Void/Deathcap multiplier split choice. (This could be as simple as buffing Deathcap).

  • Small scope improvements in post first item choices (dealing with shielding/healing, flat magic pen – eg. Liandries/Sorc Shoes, etc.).

  • Making Mejais a more reasonable option to opt into rather than just a smurf stomping option (making a fully stacked dark seal more reasonable to upgrade).

We're still discussing these options, so let us know if you have suggestions/concerns.

111 Comments

Nefas11/9/2017, 3:11:06 AM25 votes

Thank you for coming and sharing your thoughts!

{quoted}

Goal: Give mana users more contextual choices on their first item. Secondary: Small improvements to the item system generally.

A bit concerning that this is pretty much the exact same description of the problems of current itemization and the proposed fixes as the last set of changes to mana items in the mid season mage update, which left us in the current state of the world.

Before, mages would turn to items just for the stats they need, with minor changes in their build path as a game unfolds. Now mage items are focused on their tactical impact, with each enabling or augmenting how a mage contributes to a fight.

Sounds pretty similar? http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/mid-season-magic

Strategy One: A “reductionist” approach that makes mana purchases on mages not mandatory to function (eg. Morellos has no mana, Ludens and Nashors Tooth become more viable first options -> with tweaks to other systems/champs).

  • We already have some examples of this: Ahri, Annie, Azir, Brand, Diana, Ekko, Fizz, LB, Liss, Velkoz, etc. and they manage to have pretty decent item diversity without breaking the game.

  • Making mana items not mandatory however, is a fundamental departure from how League has operated since its inception and has many implications.

    • A few of the things to think about with this approach: Defensive item strength (Banshee/ROA/Zhonyas prevalence), how transformational can first items be in terms of pattern (eg. Righteous Glory when strong), mana functioning as a failsafe against one shot burst combos, is this the best state of the game, how long will it take to validate, etc.

I really question if this is a good list for creating mana system for mages:

  • Ahri, Liss, and Velkoz all get early mana items regularly - really question whether they should be on the list at all.

  • Azir's spells allow him to function without mana items due to how his kit functions with soldiers, letting him clear like an ADC. That's not applicable for just about any other mage.

  • Brand doesn't buy mana items because he absolutely has to get Liandrys and Rylais ASAP for his spells to do anything, not because he doesn't want to.

  • Annie, Diana, Ekko, Fizz, and LB just don't use spells the same way as the primary users of mana items. They are all burst-focused, kill-focused, all-in champions. Annie isn't throwing out spells at the same rate as a Ziggs, Xerath, Viktor, Vel'Koz, Syndra, etc who are the primary mage mana users. Diana, Fizz, and LB even less so. Ekko throws out Q but it does so little damage compared to poke from actual mages that it isn't comparable. If Ekko Q did damage like Xerath Q, he would be built very differently. This is also true for Diana Q. Don't think these are the champions that should be the poster-children of a mana system designed for Cassiopeia, Xerath, and Veigar.

This approach would require radically redesigning kits on a lot of mages (Ryze again? bleugh) and fundamentally changing playstyles. This is not an attractive option at all for me as a mage player of Malzahar, Ziggs, and Viktor.

Strategy Two: Retaining mana as a required early purchase and create contextual choices for this purchase (involves figuring out what these statlines and uniques look like).

  • Considerations in this space can be tough, because Morellonomicon gives mages a lot of the stats they could want and so the result of making the slot more contextual can make the purchase feel bad (just give me my old item back) or result in power creep. We subsequently have to be quite careful here and really make sure we’re making improvements.

  • As you may have seen on the Zoe stream, one version of this is investigating Lost Chapter alternatives (some with CDR, some without).

  • CDR is pretty hard to compete with generally speaking and this power probably needs to index heavily into burst, utility or teamfight power while remaining relatively generically usable.

Contextual choices are good and fine. But the system has to have multiple choices for each class of mage. The system laid out in the mid season mage update was "Tear is for spell spammers, RoA is for battle mages, Morello is for here-and-now". The problem is that Tear isn't an item that makes any sense to build on most mages since plenty of mages can't stack it at all (Tear Viktor?). That leaves RoA and Morello and RoA gives health which isn't attractive to a lot of mages and even those that may like health don't necessarily want to ever opt in to a super-delayed scaling build. That leaves Morello as the only possible choice, not just the best one.

Mages need multiple normal mana items. Not items that are unbuildable or incredibly niche. Flat mana items without gimmicks on the mana itself. If my only options to get to work 20 miles away are drive, bike, or walk , it shouldn't be surprising that I'll drive every time. That doesn't mean that driving is OP. It means that biking and walking aren't even feasible options. The contextual choices needed in the system need to have in mind states of the world where it is even feasible for a mage to build different items. There was never a state of the world where it would ever be desirable to build Tear on Viktor instead of Morello, even if the stats on Tear/Seraph's were tuned way up.

As an aside, I don't find power creep concerns compelling, given how bad mid lane feels now with the game feeling like a function of only how bot does. It is hard to hear "power creep" when other roles are still ahead and haven't been pushed down.

Separate from this larger project, also looking into some smaller scope improvements:

  • Looking at ways to improve the Void/Deathcap multiplier split choice. (This could be as simple as buffing Deathcap).

  • Small scope improvements in post first item choices (dealing with shielding/healing, flat magic pen – eg. Liandries/Sorc Shoes, etc.).

  • Making Mejais a more reasonable option to opt into rather than just a smurf stomping option (making a fully stacked dark seal more reasonable to upgrade).

  • Deathcap is just too expensive and too unwieldy to build and pretty much flat out worse than Void no matter what (though this has almost always been the case?)

  • Flat Magic Pen options outside of Liandrys Burn would be nice but will probably just be abused by AP Assassins. Mages need some sort of multiplier to separate them from AP Assassins just like ADCs have Crit to separate them from AD Assassins. But this is probably beyond the scope of these changes.

SonicÐeHedgedawg11/9/2017, 1:21:12 AM14 votes

The main problem here.... Is Morellonomicon. If you remember Zhonya's Ring back in the day, it was deathcap, with hourglass's active AND it gave Mana. It was simply way too good at everything a mage could possibly want (besides CDR). Morellonomicon gives very high AP, enough Mana to solve a champion's Mana issues almost singlehandedly and a whopping 20% CDR.... AND it gives free grievous wounds.

The issue is that we can't just take it away, because mages need access to all of those things... They just probably need to be on different items... But that's a huge huge undertaking because in addition to the difficulties of creating and balancing those new items, it would completely change when mages hit their power spikes which would have ripples across all levels of gameplay

ModThe Djinn11/9/2017, 1:33:27 AM9 votes

{quoted}- Making mana items not mandatory however, is a fundamental departure from how League has operated since its inception and has many implications.

I'm going to make a pitch on why I think this is the area you should explore, and I'm interested to know your thoughts.

I think the issue with mana as an itemization option is that it's the least impactful from a game feel perspective. Armor and Health and MR make you durable, which feels great. Lifesteal and Health Regen keep you in lane with sustain. AD, AP, CDR, AS, and Crit make numbers big. MS is immediately appreciable.

Mana though? It's the mechanic you really only notice when you run out, and then you have to back -- not in the exciting, low-health way of "I survived. So glad I built that extra defense," but more in the "well, I could keep going, but I can't really DO anything. Wheeeeee." Short of super major cooldowns with high impact (Blitzcrank hook comes to mind) that are reasonably gated, mana management just isn't that FUN, although, yes, it can be a strategic limiter. I think it's a large part of why many AP items feel underwhelming -- your purchasing power is largely constrained by mana needs, especially if you want to itemize into CDR.

I'd be really interested in seeing mana all but removed from itemization, and seeing if the system can be overhauled to modify the resource to be a little more inherently interesting, or if mana regeneration sources can become interactive strategic choices instead of +mana or +mana regen statically.

One of my personal thought experiments (obviously super rough) was wondering what would happen if you set all champions with a set mana pool (say, 1500) and adjusted their costs according to the importance of a given ability, with fairly high regen. An example with Blitzcrank might be a rate of 10 mana per second returned, but hook uses 400. His other abilities might only use a fraction of that, letting him stay in lane as long as he's not using his big-ticket spells frequently, but limiting his major plays strategically and still requiring resource management.

Now, I'll admit it's a major adjustment with significant balance ramifications, but I'm interested in your thoughts on the excitement of mana as a mechanic in general.

ShadowParker11/9/2017, 1:56:29 AM8 votes

I really don't think mana should just essentially be removed like in option 1. I feel like there's a lot of repercussions that would come with that as well as it allows a pretty effective power lever for the early game and even late on some characters (Ziggs, Cassiopeia,Kassadin).

The main problem right now is that Morellos is a mandatory first buy. If you could create a couple first buy items that contain mana and go in different paths(i.e. cdr vs dmg, or cdr vs ms) that'd help give the mage class diversity.

On a sidenote: Both cdr and grievous wounds should be something to opt into, not tackled onto something that's extremely convenient.

Khristophoros11/9/2017, 2:38:51 AM7 votes

Crazy idea, but maybe Deathcap and Void Staff shouldn't exist in their current forms. They are stat sticks that use up item slots that could be used for interesting items. AP can still scale in the same way if you find other places to put the multipliers. Luden's Echo and Lich Bane already serve as multipliers in their own way, but they also provide interesting gameplay.

MysticDreams1211/9/2017, 1:39:32 AM6 votes

-More armor and resistances, more AP on stuff. Bring back another 100 AP item, please! -Zhonya's: please do something on this item. It's basically crap and only used for the active, which doesn't always save you now because of the active CD increase. Armor and AP were nerfed heavily on it too. -More diverse items. We are lacking heavily in that department. AD has so many cool items. AP? Nope. -Magic pen. Need other items than just Liandry's for it.

And please, can you bring back a Spellvamp item? Or make a new one that doesn't have the stupid Eternity passive. I want actual Spellvamp stats. That brings more diversity into the game. I miss it so damn much :(

Pommel Knight11/9/2017, 6:46:21 AM6 votes

Can we get a few good items for melee ap champions? Right now the builds are severely lacking for them and they have to rely on regular ap items. Could it be possible to add a ap hydra for melee only or similar things that would benefit them. Perhaps a defensive item that has a unique passive like dead-mans for melee ap's.

Winterkill11/9/2017, 4:47:53 AM5 votes

I don't understand why you are to stubborn to add new items. You have no problem doing massive amounts of work on ADC, tank, and AD itemization but you have single handily done nothing positive for AP mages. You reworked them last year and gave us mediocre items with widespread nerfs to many items. You didn't address what players wanted from you the last time and here you are talking about increasing numbers on existing items to make them more useful. Again. Not the issue that you stubborn Developers are supposed to be tackling.

Mages want more options, more defensive options with AP attached to it, more itemization for on-hit and assassin mages, more magic pen options, another option for Morello. Mages want more items that support different playstyles and situations, like you have done with every other role in the game. You have shown us that you are not willing to do a single thing to fix or improve AP itemization.

Why are you sitting here talking about adding stats to existing items to make them more useful, but not actually addressing the elephant in the room? We want more items. We don't want the same lackluster items you refuse to rework or actually improve upon. Get it through your very thick and empty skulls. We want more items and diversity . . . we don't want another 10 AP on Rabbadons. We want another use for Rabbadons that give us an actual reason to buy it.

Dope Solo11/9/2017, 2:09:46 AM4 votes

All characters should be manaless with low cooldowns, and walk around to gain defense.Yasuo

Very Hard Engage11/9/2017, 7:39:55 PM4 votes

i swear if you reduce ap and just add mana onto items im going to be furious.

you outright need to introduce new, non useless items. not change old ones "and make them better" because thats going to outright destroy all diversity on the spot and make your first item the same no matter what its named, they'll all have cdr mana and ap and thats wrong.

look at the passives and ask yourself whats appealing to mid laners.

lich bane already brings ap mana and cdr and no one buys it because they would have to be in auto range.

people actually buy gunblade for the active even if it is a dps loss in some cases over lich bane.

#for the last time, dont go adding mana onto already existing items, changing build paths, and destroying already existing items. (YOU TRIED THAT WITH THORNMAIL)

Adalvar11/9/2017, 6:37:21 PM4 votes

I feel like mages need defined choices for each game stage, specifically lategame. After the original mage rework, the lategame power from item 3003 and item 3027 took a massive hit in both direct and indirect ways. This was a staple lategame combo that gave a small group of mages immense lategame relevance in exchange for a riskier early-to-mid game.

The other issue lies with item 1058 upgrades. The entire tree is almost non-existant. item 3285 is too generalist and stat-weak. item 3003 is too expensive and takes too long to spike. item 3089 is just a mess; takes to many components to build, costs too much and it's passive is way overtuned.

There is also clear up issues with items like the item 3145 line, and other utility lines such as item 3030 item 3116 item 3151 item 3157 giving oddball amounts of stats.

Potential solutions would be:

  • Give item 3027 the damage aura of item 3001 when you reach full stacks. With a minor cost increase you would again have a scaling item for battle mages and mid range burst mages and give Abyssal a new passive. Tanks have no right to get a tank item with such a utility/damage option on top of it.

  • item 3285 should deal increased damage based on distance from the caster. Cimenting this as a poke based item, instead of a worse item 3087.

  • item 3070 should work more like item 1083...farm minions (125 to 150 maybe) to stack it up is alot less clunky than the spell rotation system it currently has and it becomes easier to gauge how far/close it is to fully stack.

  • item 3089 just reduce the passive AP gain to 25%, reduce the cost by 200-250 gold and make a mini version that builds into it like item 3076 or item 3077 and gives 10-15% increased AP. This way you could fuel back AP into individual items and make pre-Deathcap purchases not feel as bad.

  • item 3145 line needs clean up: item 3030 needs a niche of it's own, otherwise it will always be overshadowed by item 3116. item 3146 needs to have it's AD removed and be focused into another role. item 3152 is ok for the most part, maybe just requires a minor stat buff.

  • EDIT: Another idea to deal with item 3165 would be to not only add new options to the tree (like converting item 3100 into a item 3802 upgrade), but also remove the GW passive in favour of doubling down on it's mana reset passive.

  • EDIT2: Another idea would be to give item 3135 the same treatment that created the item 3035 item 3033 item 3036 line. One mid tier lesser version that upgrades into one that gives the GW passive and another that would give the item 3151 bleed passive. That would also open up Magic pen options and focus AP itemization to tank busting options, removing the current overlap that item 3151 gives.

YumaS2Astral11/9/2017, 7:36:13 AM4 votes

{quoted}

  • Making Mejais a more reasonable option to opt into rather than just a smurf stomping option (making a fully stacked dark seal more reasonable to upgrade).

I don't think this is a good thing - Mejai is an unhealthy and binary item that promotes snowballing, and this game is already very snowbally. It feels shitty when your opponent gets even slighty ahead when they have this item, yet this item is so risky to buy. On my opinion this item should actually be removed, If you are worried of mages lacking in cheap, big AP options, just buff the normal item's AP.

DannyOctober11/9/2017, 4:48:09 AM4 votes

As cc has become more and common in league and is very impact has anyone thought of making qss part of a mages build path instead of it only being for ad champs?

Risk of Fate11/9/2017, 1:36:50 AM3 votes

[deleted]

B0OM11/10/2017, 5:39:29 AM3 votes

My thoughts on Strategy Two:

AP/Mana users fall into three main paradigms based on champ and/or playstyle: Burst, Poke, and DPS. All three paradigms use mana differently, so there should be different items that address the needs of each while accentuating the strengths of that paradigm. Below are some different ideas for items that attempt various ways at covering these specific mana needs.

All items have mana, I'm simply listing the main differences between the items.

BURST: Wants to unload all spells at once on a primary target. No real need for CDR to accomplish their task. Doesn't need consistent mana restoration the way other paradigms do.

item 3165 high AP (100-120ish), no CDR, %mana restored on kill with a short CD. High AP to kill a priority target, get mana back on kill, rinse repeat to do again shortly. Mana restore doesn't support extended spell casting or trading patterns.

OR

item 3030 high AP and burst, no CDR, health, Eternity passive (or maybe %mana on kill here as well). Could be an option if you want health as a mid-range burst mage (I'm not completely sold on the stats and passives for this iteration, though).

POKE: Wants to chip away at health bars over time. Needs a bit of CDR to function properly. Needs some form of mana restoration to poke effectively.

item 3285 moderate AP (80-100ish), 10% CDR, mana restored on passive proc on champions. Mid-lane version of Runic Echoes. User is rewarded for landing spells on enemies, while enemies have counterplay by avoiding Luden's procs to eventually make them go oom. Lower AP is less effective for full burst champions, and mana restoration isn't as effective when spamming spells in quick succession.

OR

item 3003 with item 3151 burn passive added. Moderate AP, 10% CDR, mana restored based on %current hp damage (most effective for poking).

DPS: Wants to be in the thick of the fight dealing damage. Relies more on spell cooldowns and base damage to pump out DPS. Needs a lot of mana restoration to cast spells until the enemy is dead.

item 3027 low AP (60-80ish, scales to 80-100ish), 10% CDR that scales to 20% CDR, scaling health, Eternity passive or mana restored based on dealing damage (capped?). Scaling item for late game DPS mages. Gives the most CDR at the cost of being a weaker item early game. Also gives health so the champion is tanky enough to live longer and deal DPS since they're most likely mid/low range. Mana restored based on dealing damage is better for low cost, spammable spells but less effective on high cost spells that burst and poke champions have.

Those are my initial thoughts. I have no idea if those items are broken or trash, how they affect niche cases of champions, or what components or additional passives they would have. I'm mainly thinking of how the final items, their stats and their mana restoration effects, cater to the different paradigms of AP/mana users and their specific ways of using mana.

I could be completely off base, but hopefully not.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Rivini11/10/2017, 5:43:00 AM3 votes

While there is a glaring issue with AP itemization, it's but one small part of a bigger picture.

The problems with AP champions (mages especially) are minion farming in the laning phase, having consistent, meaningful damage after it, and severe lack of sustain. Granted some have sustain in their kits, but so do many AD champions, yet they get a plethora of lifesteal and other sustain options anyway.

I don't understand why AD champions are allowed to have strong abilities as well as strong right-clicking, usually trumping what mages can do every less of a second with massive crits, while also negating damage dealt to them through healing in one of many ways on top of it all. How is it fair for AD champions to have so much while mages have to struggle in the laning phase with managing mana and cooldowns since right-clicking for them is a joke? Can't even invest too much in mana items because it would mean limiting your damage potential even further.

Run out of mana and/or getting low on health? Better go all the way back to base while your AD opponent can continue right-clicking minions with ease and not worry about taking any damage. That's certainly fun and engaging gameplay. Playing a mage means either focusing abilities on farming or dealing with the enemy laner. Can't do both like AD champions can.

What the game has become makes it discouraging to play mages and most other AP champions. AD champions have way better items and much more variety, are inherently stronger because of free right-click power, and Riot themselves appreciate what they do more than mages. More evidence of it is in the new rune system. Look at the subtext for the rune tree made for marks(wo)men: "Become a legend."

Why bother living out the fantasy of playing with magic when it's all about quickly melting all (literally all) of your enemies with fast, critting basic attacks? League is becoming the Call of Duty of MOBAs; throw thinking and strategy out the window and right-click everyone until they die.

The following clip at 4:17 shows exactly what's wrong with the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWeR6-5SqEg&t=4m17s

Go ahead and downvote me if you must, mindless AD mains. Just know it won't change the truth.

TomiMan711/10/2017, 9:33:36 AM3 votes

One thing im sure about that is to NOT to nerf morrellos but to make other items relevant while morrelos stays the same. Just by nerfing morrelos so the other items become relevant is a bad strategy Why not to nerf it? Its the same like black cleaver. Cheap offers a lot of cdr, and other stats. Perfect for a starting item. Yet ppl wants to split it into two while once again the AD version can and will stay untouched.

warpenguin55511/9/2017, 1:49:01 AM3 votes

please give mages actual armor options!!! Hourglass doesnt do anything in the armor department and seeker armguard is garbage.

Elewd11/9/2017, 1:23:15 AM3 votes

I think the best way to acomplish this is to just make morellonomicon split into 2. 1 with High ap and mana. and one with the CDR and grevious wounds + mana. like its basically an all around get this item or you lose.

Skyroar11/9/2017, 4:14:59 AM3 votes

My problem with Void Staff and Rabadon is that they are just stat sticks, and players simply pick whichever is mathematically superior first. There's no problem in having a single, squishy, massive damage boost item, but when you have two of them, it becomes boring.

This could all be solved by making Void Staff context-sensitive as it was always meant to be: an item to buy when you're facing tanks.

That being said, even if Void Staff was made a bit more niche, Rabadon would still need to be tweaked. Its build path is clumsy late game, but the item is only truly useful at that point. Either lower the cost (and perhaps the passive's scaling) so burst mages can get it as a second or third item, or improve its build path to make it less annoying to purchase at minute 30.

MusicMedic8811/11/2017, 7:40:18 AM3 votes

How about adding another Item that Lost Chapter builds into? Maybe having it build into another item that gives Mana, Has AP, Has No CDR, and has a different stat like Magic Penetration or Armor? on top of a different unique passive than Morellos. Nerfing the Mana/CDR component of Morellos though would absolutely gut certain mages who rely on it and make them almost useless till later in the game, and completely remove their ability to snowball.

One thing that needs to happen is there needs to be more magic pen items, currently there are only 3 total items in the game that have magic pen: Sorc boots, Liandry's, and Void Staff. The moment the enemy starts building MR, Mages have to always build a voidstaff (or a liandries) which limits mages Item expression quite a bit.

AD's on the other hand have so many "penetration" items(6 of them): Ghostblade, black cleaver, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Lord Dom's, and Mortal Reminder.

One idea I thought of just now would possibly make a lethality version of Magic pen? That way mages dont always have to rely so heavily on voidstaff when one or two of the enemy champs has a MR item (merc treads or hex drinker).

Gutting Mana items IMHO is not the way to go, unless you plan on reducing the mana costs of all the champs that rely on mana items.

StormFox198911/24/2017, 3:53:05 PM2 votes

Add this item for starters to give AP champions at least some more options: item 3170

It's an already existing item (on TT), that gives fighting stats, makes an actual effort for an early choice (standard for mana, moonflair if you need the combat stats now) and also gives an opportunity to get tenacity without absolutely gimping yourself.

DeathBurst11/9/2017, 2:09:21 AM2 votes

Making mana items not mandatory however, is a fundamental departure from how League has operated since its inception and has many implications.

Strategy One sounds super interesting but seems largely out of scope based on your earlier communications. Are you seriously considering that as a viable option?

create contextual choices for this purchase **(involves figuring out what these statlines and uniques look like). **

Strategy Two, maybe you can consider a "Catalyst versus Lost Chapter" general framework, where Mages choose the Mana paradigm that best fit their own patterns, with then various upgrades that specialize a Mage toward a certain goal (Bursting priority targets VS Melting Tanks VS Drain Tanking from the front line, for instance). This would emphasize the importance of items' passives, with the passives bearing most of the "specialization" load, and we could get 3 or 4 mana items with a very pattern-defining passive. Think passives similar to Liandry (DPS) vs Lichbane/Hextech (Burst) vs Luden (Poke), but on items built from either Catalyst or Lost Chapter.

Some champs are obviously heavily constrained (Annie will always Burst more than anything else), but some could make choices depending on the state of the game and the enemy team comp (e.g. Ziggs going more for Poke against the enemy frontline versus Burst against the enemy backline) via reactive Item choices.

One of the big issues with that, though, is where and how do you fit the stacking items Tear and RoA in such a framework.

ˆˉˉˉˆ11/9/2017, 6:17:27 AM2 votes

Buff Doran's Ring Mana maybe?

Qiyana is SO HOT11/10/2017, 12:00:18 AM2 votes

I think the biggest issue is item 3165. It just does too much for its price and pigeonholes every mage into first buying it atm. Like many have said it needs to be split into two items first and foremost. One version that gives CDR, AP, and Grievous and another version that gives AP, Mana, Mana on level up and Mana on assists/kills. There should be no reason why an item has that much all baked into it for 2900g. Split it into two and it solves alot of the issues and gives options.

Secondly Mages and AP assassins alike just want more items. Mages want more mana options and more first item buys and AP assassins and Mages would like more pen items. Sorc shoes + Liandries being the only pen items in the game with so many purchasable MR items feels so bad. Also give us 1 more AP armor item. Zhonyas is in a bad state atm and doesnt hold a candle to hexdrinker/Maw right now.

Biscuit Bite11/10/2017, 12:06:49 PM2 votes

I used to play Ziggs with full magic penetration. Now it's ruined. That was the only way I can see actual damage and fight vs a AD lane... now I can't. Since those new runes don't offer that. Plus, you only added 3 magic penetration to boots and what about the other items?

We need flat magic penetration and lethality. Now that you added armor and life to everyone it, the gameplay feel either someone is one hit or either someone is too tanky.

I played versus a Riven full damage items... Ultied her, ignited, Q, E, W, basic... only took half her life. Now tell me if this isn't broken.

Over Innsmouth11/10/2017, 1:13:50 PM2 votes

Hey this is awesome!

Are you also considering how these changes will also affect manaless mages?

Vekkna11/10/2017, 1:17:56 AM1 votes

If there aren't AP equivalents for item 3812 item 3071 item 3078 item 3147 then this entire exercise is a waste of time.

Linna Excel11/9/2017, 8:00:14 PM1 votes

I'd prefer the first strategy. My big problem with mana as a early purchase is the item 3070 issue: your damage is crap in the early game compared to someone who comes back with a item 1037 or item 1026. I mean what's the point of having more mana if the other guy can just blow you up before you can use it all? Also if you get a tear, you wind up with too much mana on most champs but that's an item specific issue. For a champ with an early to mid powerspike, you've basically wasted your advantage because you didn't get the damage when you need it. Then you end up falling off faster.

If you did go with the second strategy, I don't think you should go with a bigger mana pool. I think you'd be better off with items like item 3003, specifically for the refund and not the numbers. Morello's conditional mana refund is also fine. That said, I've never liked the catalyst line of items for either healing or mana. In genernal I'd prefer more mana regen or refunds than a bigger mana. The other problem I have with the larger mana pool is once you cast spells that have a total mana more than it, it's basically wasted stat from that point on until you base.

Looking at ways to improve the Void/Deathcap multiplier split choice. (This could be as simple as buffing Deathcap).

I think Dcap needs more than just a simple buff:

  1. It's too expensive
  2. AP ratios are crap overall compared to AD ratios
  3. It's bonus is crap compared to critical strikes, this becomes important when you see the damage multiplier that IE gives, but Dcap fails to compete with.
  4. Dcap can't be rushed while IE can be (this should be your biggest clue that Dcap is fundementally broken).
  5. Games are so fast that they end before you can finish the Dcap even if you wanted it. Why? No one rushes Dcap.
  6. Void Staff gives so much Mpen it completely undervalues Dcap's bonus. This is in part to AP ratios being crap
  7. It doesn't give anything not AP. There's no mana. There's no movespeed. There's no omnivamp or sheen effects. There's no Mpen. There's no health or armor or MR so I don't get burst down. More AP alone isn't worth it anymore.
  8. If you run out of mana, having more AP is useless. Why? No one buys nashor's. Dcap needs you to have a steady supply of mana to begin with.
  9. I feel like when you look at the items to support AD in teamfights and waveclear, AP doesn't really get as much help.
  10. Players have to conserve their spells on a mage while an ADC can right click all day.

I think Dcap is always going to be an inferior option because Void Staff gives you more damage for less money. If even I wanted Dcap, it's so dependent on a lot of other things going exactly right and even then I might have better options overall.