Touching base on Mid-season (marksman and snowballing)

RiotRiot MapleNectar·7/23/2018, 5:12:39 PM·1 votes·75,236 views

Hey folks,

Since patch 8.11 dropped, we’ve seen a pretty large shakeup to the bot lane meta which has been as polarizing as it has been refreshing. We’ve seen diversity like we haven’t in years which has changed the way players think about the game, where champs can be played, and what strategies to employ - and that’s been incredibly exciting. But as many of you have expressed (and as surveys have recently reinforced), that diversity came at the cost of marksmen satisfaction - especially those relying on crit items to scale into the late game.

It's important to note that satisfaction and viability aren't the same thing. ADCs still make up the vast majority of champion picks in the bot lane role—they aren't absent from the meta by any means. The main problem is that they don’t feel as satisfying to play as they used to, even if their overall strength is still competitive.

So, we’re taking a larger swing at the marksman space with an explicit focus on satisfaction. This'll look a bit different from the follow-up we've done so far, which was more focused on pure power. (Reigning in top tier ADCs like Ezreal and Kai’Sa, buffing the bottom tier like Cait, Trist, Varus, adding a little power to core items like IE, Stormrazor, Brawlers Glove etc). Our primary goals with the upcoming changes are:

  • Increase how satisfying it feels to play an ADC * Move some crit marksman power out of late game and into early/mid game by shrinking some of their larger item purchases in both cost and stats.
  • Maintain the diversity in the bot lane carry role that we’ve seen since midseason

For an example of the types of changes we’re exploring (still subject to change):

Statikk Shiv Total cost 2900 >>> 2800 Critical Strike lowered from 30% >>> 25%

Our goal is not to return to an entirely ADC reliant meta where the only strategy is to always take an ADC, get them to late game, and then win. What we’re trying to do is make you feel like you get to “come online” earlier in the game, rather than the game ending before you hit your important item spikes. If we end up losing a lot of the diversity gains from midseason along the way, we’ll be trying to find ways to bring that back as well, but we're trying not to go that far.

Snowballing and Comebacks

Another thing that folks have been feeling in their games and talking about is how snowbally matches feel. Over the course of the season there was pretty steady growth in what we call “trapped games” - a game where the losing team has a very low chance of staging a comeback, but it drags out until the inevitable defeat screen. We know that feels bad, and we shipped several changes over the past several months to try to reduce the number of trapped games.

The charts below present three types of games that we use to classify how snowballed a game is at 15 minutes.

  • Even Game - losing team has a 25%-50% chance to win
  • Lead Game - losing team has a 10%-25% chance to win
  • Large Lead - losing team has a 0-10% chance to win

https://i.imgur.com/OglGmDE.png

Trapped games (the red line) peaked in 8.10 but has since been going down with changes to early jungle influence, reducing global turret gold, and rejigging the bounty system to better reward you for killing someone on a kill streak. So far those efforts to reduce snowballing seem to be paying off, and we’ve seen a pretty rapid return to the norm in terms of frequency. We're particularly happy that these changes led to a large increase in the number of Even Games (the blue line)—the category with the highest comeback potential.

We’ve also already seen successful/attempted surrenders dropping at a rate similar to the graphs above, but we’ll continue to monitor in the coming months to ensure that games feel less snowbally to players and take further action if necessary.

Please continue to talk about your perceptions of the meta and your experiences in game here, on reddit, twitter, or whatever platform suits your fancy. While we might not always reply, the conversations you have between yourselves and via surveys directly influence conversation we have on the team.

Thanks everyone, Maple Nectar

small note: I'm going to be in meetings for the entirety of the day, but will be trying to dip in here to answer questions when I can over the coming days. At the very least I'll be reading comments when I have a few minutes.

194 Comments

Fisherman Fizz7/23/2018, 5:38:43 PM19 votes

For the marksman satisfaction thing:

  1. Part of where I feel dissatisfaction comes from is that for the most part, marksmen don't really go anywhere BUT bot lane carry. There's a few exceptions like kindred, but for the most part they have the least options as to where they can really go. On the other hand, all the new type of champs going bot lane already have homes in other lanes they can play in as well as in bot lane. Part of the frustration is that marksmen don't really have anywhere else to go, so when other types of champs push them out it feels especially bad.

  2. Since marksmen usually have such little agency in the early game, I would bet there's a strong correlation to the frequency of large lead games and marksman dissatisfaction. Typically when games are decided that quickly, the marksman player basically had little to no say in the whole game and that feels awful. I think reducing large lead games like you've been doing and shifting power to help them early would help a lot, so I like the direction these changes are going :D

Samji Kun7/23/2018, 5:32:57 PM16 votes

Don't you think it's time to make surrender at 15 need 4 votes only? There will always be some games that are just not fun to play - for either side - and it is just better for everyone to get on to the next one asap.

Deathfall7/23/2018, 7:23:18 PM13 votes

What is boils down to is there was a lot of change happening this season at the expense of player enjoyment. I don't enjoy having minion health and farming being addressed when mobility/creep blocking is the soul issue. I don't enjoy having specific champions be viable in the Jungle for a few months while the entire roster of Junglers were out of meta because of one change to Scuttle crab. I don't like seeing work being done on champions like Ahri, Lux, Kindred, and what work was going to be done on Ryze and Azir if there wasn't public outcry about it. I don't like the rune system that favors specific champions, is overpowered, and the Sorcery tree feeling like it is only full of movement speed enhancing mechanics. Towers are still incredibly weak.

There are a lot of things that have been worked and changed too much this season and it just isn't fun to have to learn something new every single week. The same champions get reworks, art updates, lore and thematic improvements. The issue of hyper-mobility is creeping up now. Creep/minion blocking is still a massive issue. Runes Reforged is still a mess, overpowered, some trees are not very exciting, and so much more is wrong with the runes.

Bot lane diversity is not as big of an issue compared to the issues Developers refuse to actually address. Everything that happened in the botlane is what the community wanted. The people who are complaining about it are being hypocrites now because this is what they wanted and complained about for years now. I think in the back of our mind we all knew you were going to address it and make them viable again so the argument about ADC no longer being strong and useful in bot lane is irrelevant. You are going to make it better and you are going to make ADC great again.

Why don't we address the elephants in the room:

  1. Runes Reforged is unfinished and a mess.
  2. Creep/minion blocking has yet to be actually addressed. I shouldn't' be pinned against a wall and lagged out.
  3. Towers are still extremely weak and do not punish champions that try to make a play under it.
  4. Popular and new champions get prioritized reworks, art updates, thematic updates and so much more. Stop creating new champions and pump out more reworks that actually matter for a champion, as opposed to a .05 increase on one of their stats. If you know a champion is an eye sore to look at, doesn't need a massive kit update, and has incomplete art assets, why are you prioritizing work on champions like Lux, Ryze, Ahri, and Cho'Gath who is up for a VGU pretty soon?
  5. Actually work on JG diversity as opposed to buffing a useless Scuttle Crab that didn't exactly solve the issue.
ModCaptainMårvelous7/24/2018, 12:41:31 AM10 votes

So the two biggest complaints about how to reduce snowball according to boards are nerfing damage (Some absurd percent like 10-20% across the entire board) and towers.

My question would be: How do you feel about the current state of towers and damage? Do you feel these are actually problematic situations or does boards not know what it's talking about? Do you think any changes could be in order or are you/Riot currently happy with the state of these systems?

Alternatively, if you think the problem lies elsewhere, what do you think is a more problematic system than either?

Daddy Ants7/24/2018, 11:22:48 AM9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=gnOFYO6O,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-23T17:12:39.061+0000)

Hey folks,

  • Increase how satisfying it feels to play an ADC

I can give you a list of things that make playing ADC unsatisfying for me.

  • Draven MissFortune Morgana Heimerdinger Brand Fiddlesticks

Play a Crit ADC vs these champions and you may as well just surrender the lane. They making laning non interactive for you.

Especially Fiddlesticks. It feels like there is a complete lack of counterplay to Fiddlesticks Support.

  • item 3147

Why is this item still in the game? You guys have changed it like 3 times already and still can't balance it.

  • summoner 14

Buffing this was a huge mistake. Myself and many other players are sick of seeing multiple ignites on each team EVERY SINGLE GAME.

  • Zed Talon and other Assassin's.

Literally stop buffing them, damage is already too high across the board.

  • Scaling on a Crit build is way too slow.

Games end before power spikes = makes me feel useless.

RammBorghini7/23/2018, 5:23:46 PM8 votes

thanks for the info man any taughts about the poor state of tank junglers

Eeyore7/24/2018, 9:08:31 AM8 votes

A few issues with this, which makes the whole thing feel like it's merely propaganda:

  1. You say all your recent changes have been successful in "reducing" trapped games, and yet they're still higher than the start of the year. I mean sure, you could argue that you successfully fixed the 8.10 fuck-up, but it's hardly an overall reduction to what was still ridiculously high at the start of the year.
  2. Talking of ridiculously high at the start of the year: you act like only 25% of games having the "trapped" scenario as being a "happy normal". That is a ridiculously high number of games.
  3. Following on from point 2, it appears you've coined the term "trapped game" as a smokescreen to distract people from the fact that in over 50% of games they have less than a 25% chance of comeback - from any amount of lead that the opponent has. That is to say, nearly 40% of games are decided by early leads.

I mean, the statistics speak for themselves but apparently you came to different conclusions?

TomiMan77/24/2018, 9:28:36 AM8 votes

When will you guys realise that stormrazor is the new duskblade for ad assassins, and not really a crit adc item?

BadgerDrool7/23/2018, 6:40:53 PM4 votes

On the subject of snowball and trapped games. My major concern remains how towers feel in the current state of the game. I'm curious if this is on Riot's radar as it is on mine? I'm aware that most of the changes for snowballing have been aimed at gold income and leads. However, towers have a direct impact on map control and space control.

At present a combination of factors mean towers go down quickly when left alone vs 2 plus attacking champions. Almost regardless of champion. So long as they are building some AP or AD they clear a tower out quickly. That leaves tanks/tank builds as the only class of champion with bad damage on towers.

My other concern is tower damage. Which may be a bit on the ineffective side; allowing easier dives. This may also be that enough people are playing early game champions that are good at diving to make combination dives quick and safe kills.

Then there's herald. Whom I feel can average at least a towers worth of health in damage across two towers. Seems almost worth trading a death to interrupt a herald cast.

These factors I feel are primary contributors in a much shorter and snowball-er game. It feels like any towers before inhib towers go down very quickly and a single broken inhib can occur reliably for a snowballying team with a good herald. This leads to a very lackluster midgame for the losing team where it's so unsafe to exit base at potentially 20 minutes when baron starts showing up. With baron being another factor as it's difficult to get a comeback ace around such a low damage baron.

With that said I do not have Riot internal data and I'm mostly sharing my own gut feeling. I'd love to hear details. I'm also curious if Riot is happy with the state of these factors as opinions differ and they may well want faster games.

HPLT7/24/2018, 12:10:25 AM4 votes

"Statikk Shiv Total cost 2900 >>> 2800 Critical Strike lowered from 30% >>> 25%"

OMG ADCs totally broken again. Oh wait they are still shit. Oh wait you already returned to useless 30% on PBE again. You can try as much as you want but YOU decided that ADC shall go bot for the past 7 years - you will NEVER accomplish an even spaced lane with the current design of some especially AP heavy champions. They shit on marksmen because they were designed as counter to that class. Giving them the opportunity to steamroll marksmen at every stages of the game will never EVER EVER EVER bring back adcs, why? Because its the fucking only class which brings nothing but damage to the table.

As for now you killed all my motivation. I don't see any kind of improvement - You more likely will also kill there somehow decent lategame. Sad to say but ADC is a dead role. It might get played (out of conveneince) but has no impact on the majority of the games. You still didn't found out or blindly ignoring the fact that it were Supports which made the ADC strong and that alone on it's own ADCs were never a strong class past season 2. Playing ADC right now is like playing a superminion - There are rare scenarios were you might be valuable but more often you just get carried or stomped. I hope player statistics and especially money will show you that this design direction is not "controversial" but rather a punch in the face of every former "ADC" main.

Von Brohenheim7/24/2018, 3:29:13 PM4 votes

A lot of people seem to think that all damage is the issue, and I can understand why "NERF ALL DAMAGE 10%" is such a ridiculous and knee jerk response. But maybe the problem is the amount of burst damage outside of champion's kits?

Electrocute, the free AD on Conqueror, Duskblade + Tiamat, Luden's... it's so easy to frontload a TON of damage from items and runes into an instantaneous window. Lower armor and magres in lane relative to AD/AP, thanks to adaptive runes, just compound the problem.

This situation favors champions with mobility in their kits, because they inherently have the most opportunities to proc all these effects. If they can bring damage of their own, this contributes to the feeling that League is becoming a mobile game where laners with high flat damage and mobility blink around oneshotting everything you click on.

I was really disappointed to see the Talon nerfs. I've played him a lot lately, and I tried to examine where all his level 2 all in power is coming from with my friends' help and practice tool. He's actually quite balanced, but with Ignite + Electrocute + Sudden Impact contributing just under 40% of my lane opponent's health, and that's the difference between first blood and chugging potions/recalling while you miss some farm for your ONE MISTAKE, that's a real problem. I tried laning with just AD items and Spellbook, and he was actually much more fair and reasonable - his kit is fine, it's the scaling instantaneous damage he can add on that's an issue.

Being able to mash Tiamat as I proc Electrocute, Stormrazor, and Duskblade in a single Talon/Zed/Khazix/Rengar leap is pretty disgusting, and against the point of the entire Assassin rework. Zoe isn't an assassin, but if I were better at Paddle Star I could get some truly monstrous Q + Luden's + Spellbinder + Sudden Impact one-shots. There's just so much damage outside of champion kits that you can stack into a single interaction, and I think THAT's the biggest factor contributing to snowballing.

Leto GT7/24/2018, 1:52:42 PM4 votes

The fact that 25%-30% of games are considered traps games is concerning... One of hundred of games were actual traps but were ff at 20 anyway. Now, indeed 30% feels more accurate but that's something you've created yourself.

PolerBearski7/23/2018, 10:40:11 PM3 votes

No one will listen... But the problem with our game is this: It is over balanced. I think your team made all these decisions and was rewarded by increased income and patted themselves on the back when those choices made no effect. Your player base simply grew up got jobs and had more money. Now the game is rarely played by young gamers and we are all stuck in our elos as everyone who still plays gets better along with us. No fresh meat on the table to populate bronze.

Give us the shit we really need like multiplayer practice mode and an attached rpg we can use our mastered champions in. Or die cold and alone in the night.

Whatever.

rtbf610923157/23/2018, 6:07:32 PM3 votes

Thoughts on crit items changes impact on champions like Yasuo, which is already pretty dominant in pro play and botlane ?

Inkxmpetenz7/25/2018, 12:37:29 AM3 votes

the current bot lane meta is giving me some diseases to be honest. traditional botlanes with proper adc and supporter are just useless compared to the enemys malzahar brand combo for example. it literally does no fun at all to play against neither does it make fun playing with. variation is good but there should be a limit and this limit got passed over in my opinion. also turrets might need a change so that tanks dont need to get ~30 shots to lose half of their hp, for example a maokai can dive you, kill you as an adc or apc and leave the turret aggro area without even losing hp, its like the turret just tickles him. lethality is also not as balanced as it could be since champs like shaco oneshot you with a point and click ability with one duskblade for example... idk, theres much more to balance/fix than only the snowballing/crit adc issues but oh well who am i to complain i guess

Netorare7/24/2018, 10:38:24 AM3 votes

Any plans in actually FIXING the game, or you guys will keep running away without fixing the snowballing problem?

lol you wild wyd7/24/2018, 11:39:47 PM3 votes

Current feel of games: Stomp or get stompped.

SecondComing7/23/2018, 6:35:17 PM3 votes

Meddler has talked about how mages "need buffs". Also, all of this started because of the notion "ADCs are overbearing, they have 2-item powerspike/deal too much burst very early (Infinity Edge + zeal item).

But, I don't know if you saw, mages are far worse. They can go literally everywhere;even jungle, where Taliyah skyrocketed to #1 spot at clear speed, mobility and gank efficiency, bot lane can easily be 2 mages etc. Their poke, zone control, cc, burst is too much. And even if they go 0-10 by 15-20 minutes, all they need is to get to 2-3 items max and the"I delete you with one ability rotation" is there. ADCs feel like they need 6 items to do damage and sometimes, not even that is enough. And if you end up vs double mage in bot or at least vs one of those full AP "supports", you'll probably never come online. Noawdays, a SR game can feel like these utterly disgusting full AP comps you get to face in ARAMs (fighters everywhere are also very popular but mages are worse imho).

You (Rioters) have talked about doing a pass if the newcomers at bot (who are mostly mages and this is the class you spoke of opening bot lane to as a first step towards diversity) proved too much imbalanced to lane against, especially if you're a marksman/markswoman. But all I've seen so far is plans to buff these "poor fellas".

Cosnirak7/24/2018, 7:15:00 PM3 votes

Problem #1 is that the red line even exists (yes there will always be some extreme games, they just shouldn't be frequent enough to even get a line let alone be ~25-33% of games). Problem #2 is that Riot doesn't think getting rid of that red line is a goal. Just imagine if a restaurant delivered meals that were absolutely awful 12.5-16% of the time (gonna be super generous and only count the losing team in red line games). They'd be out of business fast.

Of course I'm not even sure I'm properly understanding this chart to begin with. Comeback % doesn't seem like it should correlate strongly enough with degree to which a team has a lead to be considered the same thing so I have no idea how exactly this chart measures a lead or if it even actually does...

Also this whole post still doesn't mention overall damage, damage creep, TTK, or anything else all that directly related. So... why is Riot still avoiding that topic like the plague? There's just no way you all haven't seen the boards effectively screaming about it non stop for weeks (months?) now.

Risk of Fate7/23/2018, 5:27:57 PM2 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller7/31/2018, 4:15:19 PM2 votes

This is great, but is Riot willing to do anything about other factors that contribute to snowball and trapped games?

For example, matchmaking does not account for somebody who is rusty coming back to the game, or playing in an off-role. In my personal experience, these sorts of things often lead to people getting matched against opponents who have significantly more skill.

Has Riot considered doing anything involving PID control to better balance MMR and matchmaking?

And why not work with ISP's to use trace-route and other means to track people across multiple accounts? Smurfing is a horrendous thing to do to lower skill players, but higher skill players do it all the time!