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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 17

RiotMeddler·8/17/2018, 3:45:02 PM·1 votes·133,870 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

How 8.16's landed/a few 8.17 things

We've been looking at how 8.16's landed over the last few days. Some notes:

  • So far at least reducing runes burst damage doesn't seem to have hit any individual champion excessively hard by itself.
  • Wukong however's been hit pretty hard by the combination of direct nerfs and Rune changes. We'll see whether he stabilizes before potentially making changes to him (burst threshold changes add a brief but noticeable relearning period). If he remains as weak as he's currently looking we'll want to do something for him, likely in a way that doesn't add burst damage back (so something like sustained damage, tankiness, regen etc)
  • We'll be exploring changes to Duskblade and Stormrazor, potentially shifting their power a bit more towards sustained damage and/or making them not stack. Not certain yet if either change will go into 8.17 though, dependent in part on seeing some more 8.16 play.
  • Tahm Kench changes don't seem to have impacted his performance in solo queue. Our hope was we could reduce his appeal in pro without nerfing him elsewhere by shifting power around. Waiting to see if that's actually working, but not struggling in solo queue's a good start.
  • We'll probably be buffing AD Trynd a bit in 8.17. We ended up hitting E CD because, when paired with CDR, his mobility wasn't sufficiently windowed. While at present only his AP builds build CDR we were confident it would also be a future issue whenever AD itemization let those builds grab CDR too. Wanted to address that issue as a result and then put some power in to help out AD Trynd based off where he ended up post nerf.
  • The tanks we buffed are doing a bit better across the board. They're looking as hoped so far, though we'll want to dig into a few specific cases (Sion mid, Amumu in low MMR, Rammus jungle) to make sure they're not overbuffed.
  • Zoe's been hit noticeably power wise. As mentioned previously we've got work looking at reducing frustration playing against her already underway. No current plans for other changes to Zoe before that's ready.

State of Akali

Akali's been out for a little while now so figured it was a good talk about how we think she's doing. Her average performance is still gradually climbing as players get more experience on her and things like playstyle/builds get socialized. Players with 15+ games on her are also performing pretty strongly, with effectiveness similar to what you'd see on similar champions for the same number of games played. She's been seeing a bit of pro play too, so far looking like a decent pick sometimes, but not pick/ban worthy, at least so far.

Overall we feel Akali's on a good trend. No currently planned changes as a result.

Non LoL: Flavour Text

Usual deal: If you're not interested in non LoL game design discussion, would skip this bit.

Link here to a discussion of flavour text in games by Alex Wiltshire of PC Gamer. Includes discussion on flavour text as a tool, how it helps build theme/worlds, status as optional 'gameplay' etc. Examples drawn from games like Dark Souls, Alpha Centauri, Pillars of Eternity and more. Well worth a read if that sounds like your sort of thing. The Dark Souls bits in particular resonate with me personally, given how distinct a world that series offers despite being pretty minimalist with its story telling through traditional channels (very limited dialogue, no quest log etc).

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-art-of-flavour-text/

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

357 Comments

Pink Ward8/17/2018, 3:54:42 PM26 votes

Currently AP Shaco isn't in the best of places. One of the biggest reasons for this is Red trinket hard countering his entire kit, outside of E. It "reveals" Q, reveals and activates his boxes, boxes being the biggest strength to his kit. Shaco is the only champion with traps that red trinket and control wards act in this manner, Jhin traps, Nidalee traps and Teemo shrooms are still activate able when revealed by these two items. Shaco boxes are activated by these items, losing it's stealth, fear and dying after 10 seconds. This being said, I don't know if this is intended or not. I don't know if I should report it as a bug, or post on the gameplay boards about it, due to it being in the game for the past year. Any input?

Μeliοdas8/17/2018, 11:28:47 PM13 votes

Hey Meddler, With all the changes to AD-Assassins and Armor Penetration in general over the past two seasons I really wanted to share my thoughts on Zed with you because I don't like the way in what direction he in particular has been going. (Most of this counts for any AD-Assassin!) The reason why i picked up Zed was, because he was a high mobility high damage early- to midgame champion that fell off in lategame. I just loved being able to crush my lane by punishing their little mistakes and close out the game as fast as i could. But with the introduction of Lethality this playstyle has shifted a little bit. Zed didn't have as much power early on but had more power late because Lethality scales and is in total a higher number late than flat armor pen was. At this point I was still fine with it because we still had 20+ Lethality in runes to make up for the loss of armor penetration early. Then Season 8 came along and the 20+ Lethality in runes were gone. Of course you could argue, that the enemy also lost about 10 armor from runes, but the truth is that the 20+ Lethality loss is a way harder hit than the 10 armor are. In addition many Champions also got a base armor buff to make up for the loss in runes. Sudden Impact, which I guess was meant to compensate for the loss of lethality absolutely doesn't do it's job because it's so little Lethality which especially Zed can't make use of in lane because he would have to instant W-Swap which is way too hard of a commitment so early on in the game. As of now, all these early game losses have led to Zed feeling like a scaling mage in terms of losing almost every matchup in midlane because of his non-existent poke damage and long W cooldown but scaling very well into the game thanks to LDR and the amount of Lethality all 3 Assassin-Items give combined with each other. If you disagree or don't feel like this really is true, you can prove my statements easily by looking at the winrate by game length being low early, even lower in midgame but very high in 40+ minutes games.

TL;DR: Zed is supposed to win early to mid but lose late as it's the nature of his class. Instead he does no damage in lane, losing to most matchups while scaling way too good into lategame thanks to LDR and the amount of Lethality all 3 Assassin-Items give combined with each other.

Way to fix: There are so many things you could do that wouldn't buff Zed directly but would make his playstyle what it once was and how it's meant to be. These are a number of suggestions that are combinable but would also work as a standalone fix.

  1. Revert Lethality back to flat armor pen - decrease the total amount you get from items but select one item that offers a big amount of armor pen. This way you have a stat that is very powerful early but falls off late because it not as big of a number and doesn't scale.

  2. By giving us the choice what stat we want to get in runes, regardless of what tree we went, offer the choice to get Lethality as a stat in runes.

  3. Add more early base damage into Zed's kit. The base damage of his q level 1 and 2 are laughably low and that alone makes him lose most matchups because they can just outpoke him with most spells

  4. Decrease his W cooldown early, remove the passive AD on his Ult and move it back to his W. Once you press W in lane you lose 22 seconds of pressure and are punished super hard even if you hit your combo. Though Zed should be able to be heavily punished if he doesn't use W properly, it's cooldown is so long that even making full use of it's potential, it gives so much time of free pressure to your opponent. Reverting the Ult passive back to his W would make him a) stronger early due to the small bonus AD it offers, b) less matchup dependent in lane and c) weaker in late due to losing the massive amount of AD the Ult passive offers but getting less AD from W in late

I hope you read this and understand my points. I'm speaking in the name of all Zed mains here because if you looked at the r/zedmains for example you can see nobody really is all too happy with the current state of the champion.

I would love to see your reply. Sincerely, the Zed community

Vayatir8/17/2018, 3:58:13 PM12 votes

Any thoughts on Jhin? Particularly in regards to how to itemization/runes combined with his passive interaction is giving him a ridiculous amount of MS?

HollywoodStarlet8/17/2018, 3:53:17 PM7 votes

Hey :)

Do you have any information on the state of Zyra? I know she's not doing as bad as other champions but she only finds success as a burst mage. I really love her being a DPS mage but especially her plant health doesn't make this playstyle possible. If I'm not mistaken you tried to find solutions on her plants feeling absolutely unsatisfying because of them dying so quick especially in team fights.

Have a nice day. ^^

ChargeItDownMid8/17/2018, 3:47:25 PM7 votes

[deleted]

Water Stealer8/17/2018, 5:04:43 PM6 votes

THIS IS WHY I DIDN'T WANT ANYONE TOUCHING SION

if you're gonna do anything, just revert the health buff. i can't deal with another q change. it's finally a decent ability again. take base damage off e if you have to but for christ's sake just leave him alone if you have to change him every time you buff him.

Fajerk8/17/2018, 4:03:54 PM5 votes

Corruption pot + dark seal + time warp tonic, isn't it a bit too OP? It's popping a lot lately and it pretty much brings back "infinite sustain and clear". In current state it seems like pretty much mid/adc meta for worlds, is somebody looking at this?

T8 Speedwagon8/17/2018, 3:49:55 PM5 votes

Thoughts on Elise? Sorry if being insistent but i feel she needs some love.

Allusions8/17/2018, 3:51:48 PM5 votes

Regarding Rek'Sai: I know you guys are hesitant to help her in ways that would enable her as a tank and that was also the main reason for her game-play update, but almost all of her buffs post-rework have been to give her more damage scalings. Lack of damage is not something I have ever felt on the updated Rek'Sai. Since you mentioned in your previous post she is being looked at for buffs, would it be possible to give her help in other areas?

I'm curious to know your thoughts on potentially decreasing the interval on tremor sense blips, as it is her most unique utility compared to other fighters. Not back to the pre-nerf interval, but somewhere in between?

Another area that has potential for improvement is the wonkyness of her current ult upon landing ("clunky"); it feels like there's a lock out on being able to basic attack upon landing for about a second, which can often be the difference between life and death in close duels or in the thick of teamfights and is especially relevant when you use the ult for the untargetability and not as a finisher.

As it stands, her passive regeneration is irrelevant past early skirmishes and has a very weak per level scaling. It becomes negligible after the first ten minutes of the game. Maybe something could be done with that?

Setting aside my suggestions for what could be done for her in her current state, I would also like to ask what you guys see as her intended gameplay pattern? Personally, in her current state I see very little incentive to actually dive into and stick around in teamfights; her new/recalibrated kit lends itself much better to almost entirely assassin-like patterns and builds. Is this consistent with your views of her gameplay identity?

TheBossVeigar8/17/2018, 4:45:28 PM5 votes

What are your thoughts on Veigar in this meta? I know I've asked this in the past, but I am rather curious what you think of him Meddler.

food please8/17/2018, 5:10:19 PM5 votes

Here's a clip of a 3/3 Lux support surviving a well executed combo from a 7/3 Zed who is 3 levels ahead. Lux played the encounter awfully yet survived the burst. Can you explain to me how this is fair?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F09no6bNj8

Galiö8/17/2018, 3:52:47 PM4 votes

I think Wu may need a little love and Quinn will need love once dusk/storm get adjusted.

Ite interesting to see the winrate shifts between all the champs (about half a percent between most champs up or down)

I'm a little saddened the mages were kicked from bot for the most part but alas league of legends is a min-max game nowadays and marksmen are a comfort role

Looking forward to changes on pbe soon to see directions.

Salvor Hardın8/17/2018, 4:07:17 PM4 votes

In case you have to nerf Rammus, please make a Mid-Late nerf, I personally would like you to raise the W self-slow, when you reduced it from 50% to 30%, it seemed like a lot. 40% would be a more reasonable number.

ReworkWukongPlz8/20/2018, 5:49:01 AM4 votes

Hey Meddler ReworkWukongPlz Here Top 10 Wukong NA. Been a Wukong Main for 4 seasons now and Would love to help out With any sort of Rework or Changes to make Wukong Balanced. I have Plenty of ideas for Changes that i feel would make Wukong more fun to play and easier to balance in the future. I believe in his current state it will be impossible to balance the champion around High and low Elo. Honestly it doesn't even have to be me, just please get someone who understands Wukong such as Harambe, Yisus, Hell even Allorim who doesn't play wukong anymore To help out with the changes.

Eagzey L98/22/2018, 2:34:41 AM4 votes

Shaco is trash because of the rune changes, and no, I'm not saying it out of bias. I've said that previous buffs to Shaco - like your idea of putting 70% of AD into his Q - were way too overtuned and unnecessary; I want the Jester to be balanced and at the very least, playable. The problem was that Shaco's damage came from external resources like Electrocute and lethality (especially Duskblade), and gutting one of them effectively guts Shaco. If you nerf Duskblade in subsequent patches Shaco will legit be useless (if he isn't already). He's meant to be an early game champion but he doesn't have one. Instead we are almost forced to pick Dark Harvest and scale for 30 minutes, none of us want to play Shaco like that. The matter of fact is that Shaco is a trash champion (base stat-wise) so we have to rely on runes/items to make him relevant. If you guys have a plan to put some power back into his early game then that's a great start (and if you do want advice, please don't post on the Shacomains subreddit where most are low elo...come and ask the players who know Shaco inside out and play him in/against the meta).

PS. If any of you low elo players are thinking about mentioning Shaco's win rate to refute what I just said, please don't hurt my brain.

Blakiepug8/17/2018, 5:28:35 PM4 votes

Tahm was already somewhat weak before the nerfs went through this patch. Not only that but the only compensation for the nerfs was removed before the patch as well (being the damage buff on hiw W). As if him getting nerfed so hard wasn't frustrating enough, now to hear it declared that the nerfs were a success just really makes me feel as a Tahm main that Riot does not care about the champion. Truly disheartening.

Lil Homie busta8/17/2018, 5:04:28 PM3 votes

Meddler, can you talk about Armor and Magic Resistance at level 1 before and after Runes Reforged?

I believe that many damage and burst issues happening in the game are a consequence of the decrease in those stats after the new runes hit live. Before, we used to have 9 Armor and 12 MR from runes as default. Most of the champions only got 6 Armor as compensation and some base health in the Runes Reforged introduction, but i think that wasn't enough.

What about completing the compensation by giving everybody (except some tanks that already got their) more Armor and MR? Before, it was easy get 31 Armor and 40+ MR at level 1 with most of the Fighters and some Mages.

faelight8/17/2018, 3:50:35 PM3 votes

Any thoughts of changing shield duration?

Jabalor8/17/2018, 4:03:39 PM3 votes

Meedler any ETA on the Urgot excecution meter on the enmy healthbar like Pyke has? It was mentiones in a nexus article a while ago

Spideraxe8/17/2018, 3:51:33 PM3 votes

Oh yeah and a bit of a meta question, as Design Director can use this platform, QGT, as a place to ask you about other non gameplay league stuff

SonicÐeHedgedawg8/17/2018, 4:05:44 PM2 votes

Just an approach question: If it was agreed that virtually ALL jungle tanks were underpowered, why didn't you buff the %HP or something on cinderhulk?

Goddie Boy8/17/2018, 3:59:59 PM2 votes

With the adjustments to burst runes, are there any thoughts/worries about defensive options becoming too overbearing?

lokiemoorM8/17/2018, 7:05:33 PM1 votes

Hey Med. What do you think about draven right now? i just want to express my frustration bcz its fun to lane against him. am not asking about wether he's balanced or not am asking if he's healthy to the game. he's kit is all about damage which makes him thrive in solo q PLUS he scales pretty well into the late game for such a lane bully.