Boards›Dev Corner

LeBlanc Mini-Revert Context

RiotAzuBK·3/6/2018, 8:51:54 PM·1 votes·108,716 views

Hi folks, I’m AzuBK, a designer on the Live Gameplay team, and I’m here to deliver some context and goals for the LeBlanc work on PBE.

Thoughts on the Assassin Update

We made a slew of changes to LeBlanc’s kit in the Assassin update in the name of slowing down her time to kill, allowing her to be more tricky at the expense of burst damage. Looking back a year later, these changes ended up being a mixed bag. Some of the changes still make sense in retrospect, like removing E’s slow to give opponents a real chance to break tether range. Others began with an honorable goal but suffered in execution. Her new passive mark, for instance, was meant to backload her damage but made one of the core values of her kit—order of spellcasts—much less important ("spell order doesn’t matter, just wait for the mark").

Mini-revert goals

Enough looking back, though—let’s talk about our direction and goals with this project and how you can help. Our primary goals are to restore as much of pre-rework LeBlanc as possible while taking another stab at the assassin update’s goals of reducing frustration when playing against her. Like with any similar project, we won’t be able to give everyone what they want, but we’ve been testing and exploring internally for the last few weeks and have come up with a direction that we think we can all be happier with going forward.

Starting with the fun (and important) stuff:

  • Passive mark is gone and the old Sigil of Malice is back. We still believe that pre-rework LeBlanc's instant, ranged burst was too high, but making you stand around waiting for a mark isn’t a reasonable ask for players. We’re instead looking at more smoothly backloading her damage by emphasizing RQ and the second half of E/RE.

  • The old Mimic cast paradigm is back. Pressing two buttons to Mimic a spell introduced a painful delay, especially for a combo caster like LeBlanc. The pre-rework cast paradigm is also healthier for the game, as LeBlanc exposes herself to more risk by not having access to RW escapes regardless of her spell sequencing, so this is a win all around.

  • Feelings have been mixed on the global R-R clone. While it holds potential for some tricky outplays, the clone’s most effective uses are scouting and blocking skillshots, which don’t fit with the deceptive illusionist fantasy. So we're reverting the clone changes and bringing back Mirror Image. Mirror Image triggers at a moment that’s tense for both players involved (LeBlanc is about to die, and her opponent is about to land a kill), and provides both some guaranteed value and an opportunity to deceive and outplay.

We’ve also got a number of other tuning and mechanics changes, including:

  • RQ’s damage is more tilted towards the mark than the initial hit, whereas the base Q cast is evenly split. Q+R poke (inasmuch as that amount of damage can be called poke) was a constant problem before the rework, and we aren’t eager to jump back into the world where LeBlanc chunks opponents out without putting herself in danger. E and RE’s damage are similarly backloaded.

  • E tether is slightly easier to break. This change is aimed squarely at the playing against case—we want to give players a more realistic shot at breaking the tether, which frequently feels unfair on live (though again, to a lesser extent than when E used to slow). It’s especially important that this moment is reasonable for both sides given our intent to put more power into the root damage.

  • The lockout before snapping back with W is reduced. We aren’t planning to fully revert/remove the lockout for a few reasons listed below, but the delay doesn’t have to be as long as live in order to achieve our goals. We’re also going to count the delay from when the dash ends, rather than starts, so short dashes aren't as punished as they are on live (creating some of the standout worst-feeling cases.)

    • The main reason for the lockout lies in how opposing players are supposed to respond to Distortion. With its speed and lack of landing-position telegraphing, it’s not a skillshot that players are expected to dodge, and we're not trying to change that. The play is in whether LeBlanc is going to snap back and when, and we need time for that play to be meaningful. Opponents need a brief moment to recognize that she has arrived and take part in the mind game—it doesn’t need to be a long time—but that moment has to exist.

    • The no-lockout model biases toward pro play and low-ping environments. Even with no lockout, many players used the pre-rework W as if it had a short delay, because it had no buffering. Like other highly-ping-sensitive mechanics, perfect snap-back timing isn’t a LeBlanc skill we think is good for normal-vs-pro balance, so we’ll be investigating whether some gentle buffering makes sense here in order to even out that disparity.

      • On a simpler note—instant snapback, when executed very well, just isn’t readable for opponents or spectators. Lack of visual gameplay clarity isn’t the sort of deception we’re looking for.

Stay tuned for additional changes on the PBE as well. LeBlanc could ship as early as 8.6 if everything looks good, but might live on the PBE for a few cycles if she needs longer to get to a good spot. Feedback, especially on whether we’ve brought the fun parts of LeBlanc back or not, is welcome and appreciated. I can’t promise that everything will make it in, but, as always, your feedback will help guide the project moving forward.

Edit: Full current changelist below. There's some experimental stuff in here, so I wouldn't expect all of this to go live. Play it, think about it, and tell us what makes sense and what doesn't. I'll be around intermittently to answer questions.

Passive

  • Mirror Image is back, currently no changes from pre-rework state.

Sigil of Malice

  • Damage :: 55/90/125/160/195 (+0.5 AP) >>> 55/80/105/130/155 (+0.4 AP)
  • Mark Damage :: 55/80/105/130/155 (+0.4 AP)
  • Mana Cost :: 40/45/50/55/60 >>> 50/60/70/80/90

Distortion

  • Damage :: 40/55/70/85/100 (+0.2 AP) >>> 85/125/165/205/245 (+0.6 AP)
  • Mana Cost :: 70/80/90/100/110 >>> 80/90/100/110/120
  • Dash Speed :: 1600 >>> 1450
  • Snapback Lockout :: 0.85 seconds from starting dash >>> 0.2 seconds from finishing dash
  • Snapback Window :: 4 seconds >>> 3 seconds

Ethereal Chains

  • Initial Hit AP Ratio :: 0.5 AP >>> 0.3 AP
  • Root Damage :: 40/60/80/100/120 (+0.5 AP) >>> 80/120/160/200/240 (+0.6 AP)
  • Mana Cost :: 40 >>> 70
  • Tether Range :: 885 >>> 865

Mimic

  • RQ Damage :: 150/275/400 (+0.6 AP) >>> 70/140/210 (+0.4 AP)
  • RQ Mark Damage :: 150/275/400 (+0.6 AP) >>> 140/280/420 (+0.8 AP)
  • RW Damage :: 60/120/180 (+0.3 AP) >>> 150/300/450 (+0.6 AP)
  • RE Initial Damage :: 100/160/220 (+0.4 AP) >>> 60/120/180 (+0.3 AP)
  • RE Root Damage :: 100/160/220 (+0.4 AP) >>> 120/240/360 (+0.6 AP)
  • Cooldown :: 54/42/30 >>> 110/75/40

389 Comments

Very Cute Boy3/6/2018, 10:02:10 PM36 votes

I'm really concerned about the MASSIVE cooldown increase on LeBlanc. Before Season 6 it used to be 40 / 32 / 24 seconds. Her ult is also a tool for waveclear. So why nearly 2 minutes?

Fisher No Chains3/6/2018, 8:55:04 PM30 votes

Does her W deal damage again? Just this and I'll marry one of you guys asap

The Pale Woman3/6/2018, 8:56:46 PM27 votes

I LOVE YOU JESUS.

[leblanc-funny]

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWÆ3/6/2018, 10:27:58 PM25 votes

The R CD is unbelievable. Compared to current LB, you've removed from R:

  1. the ability to cast Shadow of the Rose,
  2. the ability to Mimic any spell, and
  3. the clone spawn

Compared to reworked LB, the R cooldown should have been REDUCED, not INCREASED. This is without even considering the fact that, compared to old (pre-6.22) LB, R was net nerfed by backloading RQ and nerfing RW.

I didn't believe my eyes when I saw a 110 second cooldown at rank 1. Old LB was already terrible at waveclear. Push-heavy lanes like Ekko, Taliyah, and Aurelion Sol are going to become even more impossible than they already were.

The Pale Woman3/6/2018, 9:01:55 PM22 votes

W damage please come back! If she isn't gonna have waveclear anymore she needs her W RW combo to kills waves like she used to! <3

nm10103/6/2018, 9:55:32 PM21 votes

Mimic Cooldown :: 54/42/30 >>> 110/75/40

Excuse me?

G0 Base3/8/2018, 10:56:00 AM17 votes

I miss the old flashy plays, and smooth jukes. They should change her assassin category to mage cuz of her slow combo. Zed is the only champion I cant think of that matches her flashy, fun, juking play style.

My opinion is that fun gameplay is the most important.

And for me fun means fast motion gameplay. summoner 4

LeBalancedChain3/6/2018, 9:56:40 PM16 votes

Hey again BK, I already commented there, but I saw the numbers changes now, and, don't you think 110 seconds on her ultimate is a bit too high? I mean it has the cooldown of something like an Ahri ult, I know it can still be changed, but, shouldn't it be like, 70/55/40 or 70/50/30? Just my opinion tho

LeBalancedChain3/6/2018, 9:00:21 PM13 votes

Hello, AzuBK, first of all, as you can see on my nick, I'm a LeBlanc main, and I have to THANK YOU SO MUCH, this is literally my dream, THANK YOU for listening to the community feedback, I think the changes are REALLY what LeBlanc needs to be fun AND not so frustrating to face, I really missed this assassin LeBlanc, building gunblade on a full ap champ was really meh, so, again, THANK YOU SO MUCH I LOVE YOU

But, just to clarify, the W damage is coming back, right? <3

Imron Zackiev3/6/2018, 9:00:55 PM13 votes

GOD BLESS IVE BEEN WAITING OVER A YEAR

IP Masquerena3/6/2018, 11:39:41 PM12 votes

@AzuBK

I don't understand something. Her current R feels so much better than her old R, allowing her to...you know...actually be deceiving with her spells and allowing her to actually do stuff outside of being a one combo pony?

I know I'll get downvoted by the LeBlanc fans, but I for one, and from what I can see, many others on both Reddit and some here, prefer to current R to her old one. Current R allows her to combo her spells differently and gives her access to other stuff, not just "oh, I'm dead, as I W in then E". I agree that her RW escape is a quite reliable, but that doesn't mean you should take her versatility away just because of that.

Current R allows her to adapt to situations and to actually show skill expression outside of "I 1 shot you, so I'm better", which is what old LeBlanc was all about. All the skill expression old LB had was "don't screw the combos and you're good". The small delay is so much more worth it for the utility and adaptability it gives compared to old R, and I feel that players are just salty because they can no longer insta gib people. But that's just my opinion.

Mithós3/6/2018, 11:16:49 PM12 votes

As a LB main over the last 6years with more then 4k games i can say that im very dissapointed about theses changes.

Its just the old LB with a big nerf.

  • Combo/Assasin/Mage with high CD?
  • No clones on r Deceiver???
  • I miss the way to use the Ult more individuell like in the reworked one
Shy Silverlight3/6/2018, 9:00:13 PM11 votes

AzuBK and August, i can't play her yet but knowing what you have changed i already love it, i just wanted to thank you for listening to our prayers and bringing back our queen.... you are amazing and I hope you'll get the recognition you deserve

Wet Keyboard3/7/2018, 8:15:32 AM11 votes

First of all I've played a ton of both pre and post rework Lb. I hated the rework until I got used to it. She really became her own champion, instead of just generic burst assassin. So I ask... Is this a joke? You guys completely nailed it in the assassin's update, why throw it all away??? Right now, if you're only using RW to escape then you're not using your ult offensively... Reasonable trade off.. Sticking around waiting for Mark is more exciting and provides counterplay opportunity as well as skill expression. Exactly what you guys wanted to achieve. If anything, only change her ult back to casting the last spell, if you think she needs a Nerf so bad.. her ult right now makes her more unpredictable which is more fun to play as and against. So now the only "deceiving" part of her kit is whether or not she's gonna snapback to W?? How bout take vision off of her global clone? So it's only used to trick people then. Not even gonna get into that ult cooldown.. I really liked one comment I read.. why would her W be a main part of her damage??? She's not a malphite type character. In line with her fantasy, it should be used to set up her other spells, via movement and the mark, not it's own damage. Which is exactly how it is now, why change it?!? Right now, she may have a numbers problem. Nerf some damage on her E or something.. slightly longer cooldown on Q idk.. but you're gonna revert her back to a BROKEN kit instead of just a numbers problem. Why. Why. Why.

Elysial3/7/2018, 12:31:42 AM10 votes

You really need to fix the ultimate's cooldown. That is a huge turn-off and anti-hype element you're introducing here.

One of the key defining aspects of LeBlanc, in my opinion, was that she didn't really have one "Big Ultimate" ability on a long cooldown but instead the choice of an empowered basic ability on a low cooldown. This change goes strictly against this and it feels like she's going to lose her identity because of it. (The real pre-rework R-cooldown numbers were: 40 / 32 / 24)

Also, the W-delay needs to go. The dash animation itself gives more than enough time for people to react. Perhaps the dash should be telegraphed with a small indicator for where she's about to dash, instead of having this clunky snapback delay nerf.

BritishMango3/7/2018, 2:09:35 AM10 votes

I think when Leblanc ults after the revert she should still keep the clone that uses the ability from the reworked leblanc so she still somewhat keeps the deceiving element that was prioritized initially with the rework. So you at least keep the clone from your ult(just not the one you can summon globally) and you also now have your passive so you can get into situations where there are 3 Leblancs at once and I just think that would be really cool. Please consider keeping the dash speed at 1600 because you are already nerfing the snapback on her w and numerous people already said it but the cooldown on her ultimate is way too high. I love that you guys are taking away the extra input from her ult though because shes supposed to be fast.

BleKz3/6/2018, 11:17:47 PM9 votes

IMO you either put a delay on W or you decrease the missile speed to 1450, not both

CD on ult is overkill

Illâoi Evê Siôn3/6/2018, 9:00:44 PM9 votes

So her wave clear is going back to W+RW?

Smaybs3/6/2018, 9:11:44 PM9 votes

Hopefully I speak on behalf of most LeBlanc players when I say:

a) Thank you for listening to us and taking a look at our favourite champion. By the sounds of your notes you are definitely hearing the fact that we want our assassin back and that we want her to feel fun. By reducing delays as much as possible while backloading the damage into something that requires skill (landing E / W to proc the RQ) rather than an arbitrary wait time, I believe you may have done just that.

b) We will be as patient as is required in order to give you helpful and honest feedback and get this thing right. There will never be a situation where everyone is entirely pleased, but as long as we all pitch in together I'm sure you can find the right line for LeBlanc.

I look forward to trying her out when the PBE is back online and once again, thank you for your hard work.

Naizuo3/6/2018, 9:57:08 PM9 votes

Ahh, a possible mistake on the Ultimate CD by any chance?

N0rth Wind3/7/2018, 11:27:29 AM9 votes

I'm not a LB player, but I'm a PBE tester. I'm posting this on behalf of a good friend who's religiously mained the new LB for about a year or so, now, but his English is lacking.

  1. He feels like losing the freedom to be able to use any order of skills in order to proc the passive is a bad choice. I used to play old LB so I actually like the combo planning that has to be done, especially since she can no longer W in, Q, W out, then RW in for the kill. She was impossible to catch unless there were 2+ enemies waiting to catch her at all of her possible positions.
  2. He HATES the loss of all the deception possibilities with R, and I have to agree on that one. He was terrified of this revert for this exact reason, and even though I thought the main gameplay changes were reasonable, the loss of all the clones on R is a massive hit to what differentiates LB from other assassins, the whole 'deception' thing. The passive clone is interesting, but I'm not sure why it's seen as a "high moment" by the developers. Personally, as someone who hates facing her, I'm actually relieved I'll only have to deal with the obvious clone split every 40 seconds instead of having to be on my toes during the most dangerous situations: when she's walking towards me to combo me, and when she's actually comboing me. I mean, what does LB have to do now in order to deceive someone? Let herself get dropped to 40% HP? :P
  3. As many others have said, the cooldown on R is completely unreasonable, especially now that it doesn't let her double-dip on mobility/CC/damage on demand.

I haven't even had the heart to tell my friend that the R no longer provides the 'short' clones (he was distraught to hear that even the global one was gone) and that all that's left now is the automatic low-gameplay passive clone... let alone the R cooldown increase.

TL;DR-- I think the shift of her damage towards the conditional/delayed parts of her kit is a good way to backload her damage without a flat 1.5s delay, however the loss of all her meaningful clones removes the most fun and interesting part of her identity (which isn't the burst, at least according to a LB main).
Also, a personal question here: you removed the global clone cause it was being used to block skillshots... then gave her a passive that, at best, will automatically proc to confuse her enemy and absorb a few hits for her, in the best-case scenario? Feels kinda bad. It's got massively less possibilities for deception, and its only usage gets reduced to "eat a few skills for me until I cast something and they see which one is the real one". Even blocking skillshots with R had to be more skillful than this. :P

Zavion3/7/2018, 8:55:51 PM9 votes

Every time i get good at LeBlanc - this being the 3rd time since 2 big changes - Riot see fit to fiddle with her. Please stop. What specifically is wrong with LeBlanc at the moment? She doesn't seem too weak, nor too strong, and she has a unique place that isn't performed by any other champion. I cannot see the point in messing with her again.

Mossy Lungs3/6/2018, 10:01:39 PM8 votes

Please reconsider the W dash speed. It doesn't need to be a shunpo, but just like the last time the dash speed was slowed, it left LB feeling heavy and clunky. I'd take more delay in return for more dash speed.

Also the ult CD (which I know all of this can change) is honestly ridiculous. 110 on level 1 for this spell. That's pretty awful.

KennysDreamGirl3/6/2018, 8:56:27 PM8 votes

"give opponents a real chance to break tether range" the range needs to be reduced. with her having the ability to dash twice there is nothing you can do to break it if your champion doesnt have dashes equal to lb w plus r-w amd wasting flash

Fibber3/7/2018, 12:03:04 AM8 votes

What is the reason behind the dash speed getting reduced again? This combined with the snapback delay(although shortened) would make it increasingly more difficult to dive the backline like an assassin should. Diving in to kill late-game will be a death sentence in my opinion Also, is her E going to have a base damage on the initial cast?

Also just as some changes that might work if these are not working as planned, I think this decision to try this revert is a step in the right direction, but I feel as if this a pushing her into the control mage category still. Her QRW combo is still potent but her relevance late-game goes down the drain with these changes I feel.

Here are some changes that might be useful

w speed increase from, 1450>>> 1500

E base damage increased on the initial proc to supplement for the 20% loss

RW- 70% ratio, only netting 205 base damage on an RW makes it harder to utilize efficiently and aggressively, especially if it is slower and the pad dissipates faster.

RE needs to be a bit more worthwhile late-game, sticking around a target for ~3 seconds is rough, and questionable worthwhile for that amount of damage. since you are only netting a little bit of base damage over a regular chain

and if the CD on R seems to be problematic, maybe change it to 80/60/40

DT5143/7/2018, 6:34:03 AM8 votes

As someone who had mained Leblanc in 2012 to 2016, I am so so thankful for you and Riot August's work and willingness to work with us to give our favorite champion back. When the assassin rework hit, I ended up playing other champions more, and overall ended up playing the game less because I just never felt the amount of fun I had when i played this iteration of Leblanc. For you guys to finally give me back my favorite champion makes my heart warm, and if these changes go live, I will most definitely be playing more often again. With that being said, I do have few comments about these numbers from just reading them initially.

  • The mana cost on Distortion being nerfed does not make too much sense, especially when compared to the pre-rework Leblanc's distortion. It is essentially going to be a weaker version with a snapback delay and shorter snapback window, so why should the ability cost even more mana? Logically these changes seem unnecessary when comparing it to the pre-rework Distortion.
  • Second, the snapback delay + slower missile speed on distortion do not make sense either. In my opinion, having a slower missile speed solved a lot of the "lack" of counterplay that was aimed at 3 years ago in season 5.
  • Third, the reduced window of time to snapback to the original location seems unfair also. I remember when the buff from 3 to 4 seconds was first introduced after the silence was removed from the sigil, the reasoning was because they wanted to compensate and give her more tricks. I don't believe this extra second ever really skewed any games or skirmishes to a point where it was not considered balanced. Therefore, it seems better to keep the window to be 4 seconds rather than reducing it.
  • The biggest elephant in the room is clearly the cooldown on Mimic. Like mentioned by several people, it is not the flashiest or the most game-changing ultimate when compared to the likes of Ziggs, Taliyah, or Ahri. It is a simple copy of a basic ability. Although when I played pre-rework Leblanc, I did agree that the CD when combined with CD reduction was too short of a window for opponents to adjust to. However, I do not believe nerfing it to essentially 3 times the old CD is a good direction. When we also consider how there are not the same runes and masteries for CD reduction as before, it seems very unfair to be giving a 110 cooldown right off the bat. All of the instant CD reduction runes are in the Inspiration tree, but it is unlikely that Leblanc will ever use it instead of Domination or Sorcery. Even with rushing Luden's Echo first, which is the most probable build with the revert, it is still left at a 99 second CD which will still leave Leblanc very weak. I know you say that these changes are very experimental, but the magnitude of this direction or any similar direction is very unfair for Leblanc players; it is still playing into the mentality that the only way Leblanc is balanced is if enemies feel like it was "fair" when she is able to kill a target. I believe at most her CD should be 60/45/30 (which i believe is still extreme), but for personal preference I believe 50/35/25 or something close to this will be fair enough.

Since I have not been able to test her on PBE yet, these are the only thoughts I have on these initial changes. Again, I want to express my appreciation, and I hope that this revert is successful for both us, the players, and you, the designers.

OVERHEAL3/8/2018, 9:11:39 PM7 votes

I think the current LB is perfectly balanced and fun to play. LB suppose to be a skillful champion that you need to spend time and use your brain to master. Her various flexible play style and huge potential is the reason why she is fun.

LB is one of the most flexible champion in lol. The main reason is her current R(copy and cast Q W E in any order). (W(dash) is not a very rare. There are many Skills are dash then back or dash then leave, like Zed’ R and W, Zoe’s R, Kha’Zix’s E,etc.) By using R in different circumstances, LB may change her strategy and spell casting order base on the judgement of players to create their own play style, which makes LB flexible, unique and fun in game play.

And LB’s RR(clone), according to LB's background story, she is a unpredictable and mysterious deceiver, her RR clone tricks and misleading people, which is perfectly matched LB’s characters.

If Riot revert LB, it would restrict her flexibility and potential. She would be a champion with fixed spell casting order, in other word, ruining all the fun. A champion with very limited potential are mediocre and boring, like many very old champions in LOL. I think that is not what Riot want. Riot is trying to make every champion different not only in appearance, play style as well. That is why lots of old champion got reworded in past few seasons and all new champions are very different from the old champions. I can tell from the recent released new champions, like Zoe and Kai'Sa. who have big potential and unique skill mechanism. but LB is a unique champion already. In past few patchs, Her win rate is around 50%, which is ideal balanced. so there is no need to revert her or making any big changes.

I believe Riot wants lol to be"easy to play, hard to mastery" game, so new players would love this game because its not so hard to learn and everybody can have fun. But as they playing lol, many of them want to have more fun, they want to be better than others, so they would have to spend more time on lol to mastery more difficult but strong champions. That is why some champions and their skills should be easy to understand, like Garen, and others should be hard to mastery, like LB, GP, Lee Sin etc. And I believe many current LB main player will be very disappoint with the reverting, because the players like them spend very long time and lots of energy to practice and master a hard champion, the reverting completely change the way to play a hard champion like LB(due to changes in Passive and R) which makes they effort wasted. So please do not revert LB and keep the skillful and various play style for more players to discover the fun.

TC Sigil3/9/2018, 4:31:10 AM5 votes

Most of these changes are for other mid laners. You do realize almost all of this community is silver/bronze and don't spend time on the game. I understand that most of these changes are just experimental, but what you are doing is making all LeBlanc players not want to play this game anymore. How are you going to make me fully relearn this champion for the third time? You have better take more than just 'A couple weeks' to figure out these changes. I really believe you need to put yourself in a leblanc players shoes aswell, and not just the opponents.

Ronin Tamos3/12/2018, 11:01:04 AM4 votes

Yeah sorry about chiming in late to the party, but im just here to voice my dislike for the revert. From my PoV this is not the way LB should head off to and all the people rejoicing right now were in love with a champion who had no counterplay poke and such an infuriating, cheating death passive. I for instance think the current LB (on live) is way less oppressive in her play patterns and has a whole lot of combos. Just because her skill floor rose and not as many people can make a use of it, she is disliked by her old mains One further point = If you gonna revert her to the state she was in, remove waveclear patterns like the current WQ. She needs more defined weaknesses.