[FOLLOWUP] Juggernaut Items

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It's not so much that Deadman's Plate is super awesome, but that other choices are just subpar in comparison. If you're looking for armor and health, your choices are Sunfire Cape, Randuin's Omen, and Deadman's Plate. Sunfire Cape's passive just feels bleh, very hard to appreciate, which leaves Randuin's and Deadman's. The problem here is that it seems like speeding up is always more universally useful than slowing someone else down, which is a problem beyond the scope of these two items.

I'd like to look at Randuin's Omen and Sunfire Cape as well. I do think Deadman's is also overbearing, though.

We're not looking to make immediate changes to Udyr. When we do work on him (next him his balance demands buffs or nerfs most likely) we'll be looking at stat binding as something to incorporate into that though.

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Hi Axes. Thanks a lot for this thread. As a "Juggernaut main" (I played a lot of Garen, Mundo, I was one of the few advocates for Mordekaiser bot on the forums, and even if they are not all proper Jugg, I played a lot of other tanky dudes [and dudesses :p]), I have a few questions.

1. About Udyr: is he really considered a Juggernaut internally? He has huge MS, a stun, and lifesteal (which discourage from building HPs, as mentioned in a later point).

I wouldn't say that Udyr in his current state is a Juggernaut - just that he shares enough properties that he's in the same general space, so he naturally tends to come up when we're talking about Juggernaut items.

2. And what about Mundo? Despite his ranged poke, I'd say he is a Juggernaut. If he is not, what is he? Because he's definitely not a Tank with just one slow, and not the most efficient of Divers either. And yet if he is a Juggernaut, he doesn't build their items, mostly full durability, and if he builds offense, it's more magic-damage-oriented (1 or 2 among Rylai/Lyandry/Abyssal/Witt's end).

Mundo feels like a Juggernaut to me, but that's my opinion, I wouldn't say that it represents some kind of internal consensus.

3. Which transitions well with my next question: there are very few magic-damage Juggernaut/Bruiser items. It's obviously a problem for Mordekaiser, but even beyond that, its a hole in the itemization system, and it could open a lot of diversity in type of champs and buildpaths available, especially for guys like Rumble, I think. Is there any plan to add new items in this direction, or rework some of the existing items to gear them more toward AP Bruisers? There is probably something cool to be done with Rylai/Lyandry/Abyssal/Witt's End/Sunfire, and yet I cannot think of a single champ who would actually wish to build that stuff.

The big question for me on "AP Bruiser" is that it's not clear that we're talking about any real class of champions. Names I hear include stuff like Mordekaiser (hybrid stats Juggernaut), Rumble (AP damage dealer who buys minimal tank stats), and Maokai/Singed (more or less straight up tanks). I could imagine doing an AP Bruiser item if it's clear that it's supporting a decent set of champions who share an itemization need, but most of the ideas in that space that I've heard pitched end up being an item for just one or two champions since these champs don't really share many properties other than "fighter-ish and scales off AP".

4. About Stat Binding working: aren't Tanks using Deadman's Plate too much? Or Sunfire? And by the way, can you confirm that Black Cleaver and Sunfire are actually considered as Jugg Items, and not Tanks Items (despite not being the 3 added items you mentioned)? And Randuin, with the utility actives and the crit reduction is more a Tank item, despite the HPs, right?

Black Cleaver, Sunfire Cape, and Randuin's Omen are all definitely in the space of Juggernaut items. Sunfire Cape and Randuin's Omen are also used by Tanks, while Black Cleaver crosses over with all manner of non-Juggernaut Fighters (and a few AD Assassins). This kind of crossover is perfectly fine.

The reason we care about stat bindings is that if we can ensure that Juggernauts are actually the core users of a particular item, we're able to balance the item around them instead of some other champion that just plain abuses it better. The reason we're calling this a successful demonstration for stat bindings is that we believe that it demonstrates that we're able to bind these items when we need to. Sterak's Gage in particular was successful in that regard.

Re: Dead Man's Plate: I think that's a problem with DMP being simply too powerful for its cost, not a problem with its stats profile.

5. About the "Known Tradeoff": does this label mean that it won't be improved in the (near) future? Not that I'm complaining, but it's kinda ambiguous what you mean there.

In this case, I mean that we think we'd have to take on another fairly major project - at around the preseason Marksman itemization scope (which was much larger than the Juggernaut items scope) - to improve it enough to call it done.

6. About Titanic Hydra: IMHO, the intended users should be: Volibear, Mundo, Udyr, Darius, and potentially reworked Nasus/Olaf with a better binding with health. All of them have a kit centered around basic attacks, with resets/AS buff/aa-enhancers. The problem for Nasus and Olaf is that their lifesteal encourages them to build resistances more than hps. (But you are probably aware of that already ^^'). And why allow to swap between Titanic and Ravenous freely? This seems a bit odd, and unfair compared to Smite/Boots/Zeal upgrades/Sheen upgrades/etc.

With a few changes that's more or less the list I had in mind (Trundle and Shyvana might be candidates, not sure it'd make so much sense on Udyr in his current form), but as you've probably noticed they all would need a few tweaks to really consider Titanic a core item. That's the exact concern with the item - its niche is so specific that it almost doesn't exist.

Re: the swapping: It's a bit of a thematic nod (they're configurations of the same weapon), but not ultimately crucial to the items. I rather like it but it's definitely odd and I understand why there's concern about it. I don't know if it'll stay or not.

7. About Deadman's Plate: can't you buff the alternatives instead of nerfing it, just like you did with Thunderlord recently? If not, why is it a different case?

In Thunderlord's case, our thought was that the other Keystones had been left in a bad enough spot that nerfing Thunderlords would just leave Keystones feeling terrible across the board - none of the options was close enough to feel even ok about and we didn't have a ton of time to build confidence in buffs to them.

With Randuin's/Sunfire, they're items that players have appreciated in the past, which gives us quite a bit of confidence that some tweaks will make them desirable again. We'll likely try to float up both of those items in the near future. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, however, I think Dead Man's Plate is too strong for an item in League of Legends given its cost, not just for an armor item, and I don't think we can possibly buff Sunfire and Randuins enough to compete with Dead Man's without just making champions that use both overpowered.

I'll appreciate any answer, even partial ;) Once again, thanks for this thread, and thanks to Riot for the Dev Corner in general.

Thanks for the questions!

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=fWOVQoin,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-01-26T02:52:34.816+0000)

Axes, is poppy considered a juggernaught? From what I've seen she builds several of those items.

I wouldn't say so, but the fact that there's some spillover in her itemization isn't necessarily a problem.